Jump to content
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
TexasColdHardyPalms

Sabal Uresana varieties & cold hardiness

Recommended Posts

TexasColdHardyPalms

During this winter I have noticed a big difference between seed stock of Sabal Uresana and upon further investigation it appears that there are two distinct populations of this species.

The costal form is more blue/green in color and from what I can tell is more of a zone 8 palm.  I have had various damage on this species from 100% defoliation on smaller 5G plants in the ground to 75% defoliation on larger 5-6' tall (overall) plants in the ground.

There is also a reported Mountain form that is silver/white even from the first leaf (same color as a B. Armata) and this palm appears to be zone 7 hardy.  I had zero damage on three leaf plants in 1G pots (100% frozen) at 16F and 30+ hours below freezing.  This form is much hardier than the Rosei or Riverside (both 100% burned at this temperature.

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brad Mondel

Interesting observation. Do you have the hardier versions available? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pete in Paradise Hills

Unfortunately mine is the greenish version. Wish I had the lighter version as I find it more attractive...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
buffy
13 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

During this winter I have noticed a big difference between seed stock of Sabal Uresana and upon further investigation it appears that there are two distinct populations of this species.

The costal form is more blue/green in color and from what I can tell is more of a zone 8 palm.  I have had various damage on this species from 100% defoliation on smaller 5G plants in the ground to 75% defoliation on larger 5-6' tall (overall) plants in the ground.

There is also a reported Mountain form that is silver/white even from the first leaf (same color as a B. Armata) and this palm appears to be zone 7 hardy.  I had zero damage on three leaf plants in 1G pots (100% frozen) at 16F and 30+ hours below freezing.  This form is much hardier than the Rosei or Riverside (both 100% burned at this temperature.

I have the silver version. And it's quite hardy. I saw similar lows and duration. A few freeze blemishes on a 8 foot specimen. Good to go. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zifool

That is very interesting to see silver and green version side by side :blink:;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Josh-O

I'm glad you brought this up Joseph. I had always suspected there was two forms of this species. I was given a seedling of the silver form and I was amazed even as a one leaf seedling how silver it was while my other seedlings are greenish in color. I harvested and germinated the greenish form from a tree down here in San Diego while the other seedling I received was collected in habitat.

 

great thread!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Phoenikakias
5 hours ago, Josh-O said:

I'm glad you brought this up Joseph. I had always suspected there was two forms of this species. I was given a seedling of the silver form and I was amazed even as a one leaf seedling how silver it was while my other seedlings are greenish in color. I harvested and germinated the greenish form from a tree down here in San Diego while the other seedling I received was collected in habitat.

 

great thread!!

Do they differ eventually in the growth rate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Josh-O
6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Do they differ eventually in the growth rate?

not sure yet. I just took possession of the silver form. I will keep a close eye on them to see if there are any noticeable differences.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ben in Norcal

Does anyone have pictures of the two forms?  I am wondering what I have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Phoenikakias
17 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Does anyone have pictures of the two forms?  I am wondering what I have.

This is blue form. I hope this covers your question.

IMG_20161207_164605.thumb.jpg.c538a1133fIMG_20161207_164634.thumb.jpg.bcfebae85f

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

The forum isn't allowing me to upload pics from my phone for some reason.  It may have to do with the new McAfee security software I installed..  I'll download a few pics to my computer in a few days and upload.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ben in Norcal
4 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The forum isn't allowing me to upload pics from my phone for some reason.  It may have to do with the new McAfee security software I installed..  I'll download a few pics to my computer in a few days and upload.

I can't upload pics from my phone either, total PITA.  Too much work to upload pics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pete in Paradise Hills
1 hour ago, Ben in Norcal said:

I can't upload pics from my phone either, total PITA.  Too much work to upload pics.

Same here

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Steve

Those specimens at Peckerwood are impressive, but the photos appear to have been retouched (I retouch my photos sometimes too). Like many silver palms, Sun should increase the intensity of the silver/blue.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

Looks like the picture function has been resolved. Smaller plant is the much hardier highlands uresana. All seedlings exhibit this color. The larger uresana is a gunmetal blue in person. For some reason it looks green in this photo.

20170225_141326.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

Same uresana seedling with brahea armata.  To the right are baby phoenix dactylifera.  

20170225_141439.jpg

  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
meteorologistpalmguy

Was out at Peckerwood gardens yesterday and took this shot of their extremely blue/gray Uresana.  Not retouched in any way.  These were put through one night of 14 degrees and another of 15 degrees consecutively about a month and a half ago, with freezing rain at the start and plenty of wind.  They seem to like it!

IMG_0548.JPG

  • Upvote 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ChrisA

I've got a blue form planted here in the ground in Albuquerque N.M.  We have gotten down to 12 degrees this winter and the palm (from a 3 gallon) has only been protected with a pop-up plastic greenhouse, with no additional supplemental heat provided. There is not any damage showing on this palm yet, thank goodness! It only has two fronds at the moment. Fortunately spring is already upon us here but we still have upper twenties and low thirties in the nightly forecast for the next few nights before warmer weather moves back in! 

I'll post some photos once the greenhouses come off in another few weeks.

As to the reference of the palms at Peckerwood in the previous post, did it really get down to 14 and 15 degrees so close to Houston???  This looks to be not too far from Katy, Texas. I was there the winter before last and there were some decent size queen palms in front of the hotel where I stayed. 

Edited by ChrisA
Adding a question!
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
meteorologistpalmguy

Most of the surrounding locations, such as Brenham reported two consecutive lows of 19.   Peckerwood is pretty far away from any urban/heat island influences surrounded by mostly treeless prairie.  It is also located at a relative low spot along the Brazos river valley.  As such it is reasonable to assume that they could have seen temperatures 3-4 colder than the surrounding major reporting locations.   At my place in Magnolia, I had 19 and 18 for lows, but the area is considerably more built up in addition to being wooded. 

Katy should have been several degrees warmer and with a notable heat island influence.  It is pretty incredible the difference you could see in the cold damage near my office (Galleria Houston) with minimal leaf burn on Mexican fans and queens.  Then you get to Beltway 8 and 290 and you started to see queens heavily burned and Mexican fans 50% bronzed.  Then get up towards 99/290 and all the queens in that area were completely smoked and all Mexican fans up my way completely defoliated.   Peckerwood puts you about another 20 miles out into the country from there.

I suppose I should mention that I have several smaller uresana in ground... and not one was bothered by 18/19 with freezing rain at the start and plenty of wind. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms
5 hours ago, meteorologistpalmguy said:

Most of the surrounding locations, such as Brenham reported two consecutive lows of 19.   Peckerwood is pretty far away from any urban/heat island influences surrounded by mostly treeless prairie.  It is also located at a relative low spot along the Brazos river valley.  As such it is reasonable to assume that they could have seen temperatures 3-4 colder than the surrounding major reporting locations.   At my place in Magnolia, I had 19 and 18 for lows, but the area is considerably more built up in addition to being wooded. 

Katy should have been several degrees warmer and with a notable heat island influence.  It is pretty incredible the difference you could see in the cold damage near my office (Galleria Houston) with minimal leaf burn on Mexican fans and queens.  Then you get to Beltway 8 and 290 and you started to see queens heavily burned and Mexican fans 50% bronzed.  Then get up towards 99/290 and all the queens in that area were completely smoked and all Mexican fans up my way completely defoliated.   Peckerwood puts you about another 20 miles out into the country from there.

I suppose I should mention that I have several smaller uresana in ground... and not one was bothered by 18/19 with freezing rain at the start and plenty of wind. 

+1. 20 miles north and west of the beltway really isnt any warmer than Austin or byran/college station as far as usda zones are concerned. Its not until you get close to the beltway that it really warms up with another jump up once you get downtown and then southeast of town. 

I purchased an old horridus and trispinosus from an older gentleman downtown Houston that had never had any of them burn outside as well as a laundry list of alloe. He told me he moved there in the early 90s and that the lowest temp he registered was during the 2011 winter when his weather station dropped to 28. Granted his house was on a  postage stamp lot surrounded by large/tall apartment complexes and lots of concrete, but from what he described his place was a legitimate 10a. His neighbors all had large foxtails and other crownshafted palms that i am very poor at identifying.  

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ChrisA

Wow! Thanks guys!  Those are some good thoughts to keep in mind for anyone considering a move to the Houston area.  I would love to live in place that hasn't seen below 28 since the early 90's.  I never thought of the affect as you move into the drier zones that aren't too far from Houston, when I look at the map I just imagine all that wonderfully warm and sultry gulf air that can so easily sweep across the landscape and forget the arctic fronts that can just as easily sweep down the plains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

Here is a picture of the damaged coastal uresana this year.  It is 6' tall overall. 

20170218_132900.jpg

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
palmsnbananas

It regularly get below 25 degrees in Houston for sure. This year got down to 21-23 F and about 7 years ago it got down to the teens. That's the honest truth, "never getting below 28" is dreamville!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jdiaz31089

I wonder if this has anything to do with the distinction between uresana and a supposed "oregana" or "select blue " from this post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RaleighNC

A blue Sabal uresana at the Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh survived our brutal winter. We had 8 days of in which temperature never went above freezing, with a low of 5F. The leaves exhibited only minor burning. Two Sabal brazoriensis and a Sabal palmetto "Bald Head Island" in the immediate vicinity of this plant were killed. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Turtlesteve

Good to hear - makes me feel better for planting one as a strap-leaf seedling.  If they are consistently this tough, they should have significant untapped market potential.  So far the seedlings I got (the "highlands blue" from Joe) have grown well in high humidity whereas I've generally failed with other dry climate palms.  Maybe I should plant one at my parent's place in the upstate....sure would stand out there. 

2 hours ago, RaleighNC said:

A blue Sabal uresana at the Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh survived our brutal winter. We had 8 days of in which temperature never went above freezing, with a low of 5F. The leaves exhibited only minor burning. Two Sabal brazoriensis and a Sabal palmetto "Bald Head Island" in the immediate vicinity of this plant were killed. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

These have all been potted up into tree pots now. I had a 1g with the pot buried in the top of a 3ft mulch pile this winter. It completely defoliated but came right back at 8f. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mdsonofthesouth

How well do they handle wet winters? I'm guessing these are drier palms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

Depends on your definition of a wet winter and the average high temps.  They have zero problems here and in Louisiana.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mdsonofthesouth
On 8/29/2018, 1:52:18, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Depends on your definition of a wet winter and the average high temps.  They have zero problems here and in Louisiana.   

 

Typical DMV winter: Average highs in the low 40s and high 20s for lows with obvious spikes from 3f to nearly 90f depending on the day with mostly rain and 0-20in of snow for the year that melts pretty fast with most storms being in the dusting to 6in range and the occasional blizzard of 12-18in every 6-10 years. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

Thats too cold and wet for any trunking sabal. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mdsonofthesouth

So you need to be a dry zone 7...oh well.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Meangreen94z

An old thread, but I thought I would add photos from Peckerwood Gardens for reference. Absolutely no touch up performed, this is what they look like in person on a mostly overcast day.
file.php?id=63792file.php?id=63793

file.php?id=63791

file.php?id=63794

Edited by Meangreen94z
  • Like 11
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Meangreen94z

From todayfile.php?id=68315file.php?id=68316

Edited by Meangreen94z
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Swolte

Thanks for sharing. Peckerwood Gardens is an amazing place for cold hardy palms (see link attached to a thread with some more pics of other palms for those interested). They recently opened a small nursery and they sometimes sell some interesting palms there. Folks are really nice there and I am sure they're happy to share seed for those interested. I am growing increasingly impressed with the Uresana as I had small ones survive another wet winter here in Central Texas with a few freezes (hope we don't get another one, though!). 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve in Florida

The wax on the leaves eventually washes off from excess rain and humidity.  I  raised hundreds of seedlings from those trees and all turned green.

Edited by Steve in Florida

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×