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trioderob

Best micro climate in all of Florida ?

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trioderob

great idea for a thread....

 

 

Edited by trioderob
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BS Man about Palms

Geez... I knew I loved staying at my Grandparents and it was so cool/(warm?), but love to hear about Clearwater.. where they lived AND is MY HOMETOWN. My parents have a winter apartment in the St Pete zone you have mentioned.. I think the 4th floor? I bet they could grow bananas on the balcony! lol

Anyway... I vaguely remember some old pictures my grandpa had of a cold winter and talk of it. I was born in 63 so it happened before I got there!

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Eric in Orlando

My parents moved to Orlando in 1979. We used to go to Clearwater/St. Pertersburg beach a lot in the early '80s. I remember seeing coconuts over on the beachside (pre-1983) and bringing coconuts home. I was a teenager and just getting interested in palms. But after the 12/1983 freeze most of these were gone and I don't remember any after the 12/89 freeze. But I started seeing them replanted around 1993.

 

 

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waykoolplantz

y'all can argue 'bout lows...but the proof is how she grows

 

015.JPG

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Zeeth

I don't think C. renda would grow anywhere in Central Florida. Even places that don't get too cold stay cool for too long.

I've seen some specimens of the hybrid that had a color that was just as pretty as the real thing though (see attached), and I would bet that the warmer microclimates of Central Florida could grow one of those.

IMG_5334.thumb.jpg.e1b1c21a55d9a8196c7a0

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Yunder Wækraus
2 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I don't think C. renda would grow anywhere in Central Florida. Even places that don't get too cold stay cool for too long.

I've seen some specimens of the hybrid that had a color that was just as pretty as the real thing though (see attached), and I would bet that the warmer microclimates of Central Florida could grow one of those.

IMG_5334.thumb.jpg.e1b1c21a55d9a8196c7a0

Do you think I could grow this?

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waykoolplantz
35 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Do you think I could grow this?

Only one way to find out...try

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Yunder Wækraus
14 minutes ago, waykoolplantz said:

Only one way to find out...try

lol--yeah, I hear you :-) But there's a big difference between trying something that *might* make it and wasting money and time on something that absolutely will not make it for a host of reasons beyond maximum cold tolerances.

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GottmitAlex
48 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

lol--yeah, I hear you :-) But there's a big difference between trying something that *might* make it and wasting money and time on something that absolutely will not make it for a host of reasons beyond maximum cold tolerances.

Mallory is famously quoted as having replied to the question "Why did you want to climb Mount Everest?" with the retort "Because it's there".

 

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Zeeth
58 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

lol--yeah, I hear you :-) But there's a big difference between trying something that *might* make it and wasting money and time on something that absolutely will not make it for a host of reasons beyond maximum cold tolerances.

Your only problem should be salt spray. I can't say how much that would affect it, but I think it's worth a try if you ever find one. I think they should thrive on the barrier island near the lagoon, where the salt spray isn't as much of an issue. 

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Walt

Today I got out and took lots of coconut palm pics and video up in town (Lake Placid) and in the Lake June Pointe subdivision. As I stated in an early posting, many residents in the LJP subdivision moved up here from S.E. Florida. One of the residents even planted out a C. renda in his front yard (as told to me by a friend who lives there). M friend said he gave the palms extra wintertime protection -- that is until it got killed in December of 2010.

I still have lots of pics and video to take. Once I'm finished I must edit all the raw video. I'm already disappointed with some of the video I took as I feel I didn't make them long enough, but still acceptable. However, forthcoming videos will be longer. Later today I will post 2-3 teaser photos I took today. Tomorrow I will head out and take some more pics and video (you can do fun stuff like that when you are a retired old man like me -- no time clock to punch, boss to check in with, etc.).

 

 

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waykoolplantz

I'm 70 miles SE of Pahokee and my C Renda did survive the 2010 freeze.

i checked google maps to see the distance and noted  a Pahokee Palms close to the lake. Maybe someone could contact them for some accurate temps.

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Yunder Wækraus
7 hours ago, waykoolplantz said:

y'all can argue 'bout lows...but the proof is how she grows

 

015.JPG

Did you give it protection in 2010?

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waykoolplantz
3 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Did you give it protection in 2010?

No protection. We did lose @20 species. The most painful was a 17' Verschefeltia . Very pretty palm.

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Yunder Wækraus
1 minute ago, waykoolplantz said:

No protection. We did lose @20 species. The most painful was a 17' Verschefeltia . Very pretty palm.

Wow! Do you know what your low was?

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Walt

Here's two coconut palms growing in the residential area of the town of Lake Placid (took these photos today).

I've been tracking these palms since I first saw them in 2003. They were already well trunked at that time. I have no idea how big they were or when they were planted. These palms are about one block north of Lake Pearl (a small lake) on Lake Pearl Drive (can see palms on Google street scene to verify), so I can't say they get much lake effect benefit. But they are on the Lake Wales Ridge, so they do get elevation benefit. As the old saying goes: The proof is in the pudding. The town of Lake Placid can support coconut palms for a fairly long term.

The second photo below was taken from the S.W. shore of Lake Pearl using 40x zoom to photo the many coconut palms growing along the lake shoreline. In the far background is Happiness Tower in downtown Lake Placid. I've been up in this tower numerous times to take photos, but about 10 years ago they closed the tower down to the public due to fire code/safety regulations (exposed electric wiring in the tower stairwell).

Once I finish my YouTube video showing all the coconut palms, royals, foxtails, solitaries, etc., I hope to put to rest the fallacy many Floridians (and others) think that such palms can't be grown in the cold inland central Florida. Such palms are subject to the same physics as palms on the warmer coasts -- and they respond to the warmer lakefront areas and areas of elevation that have good cold air drainage. But outside of these areas, yes, such palms won't make it in deep inland central Florida for long.

PA180431%20-%20Copy_zpsafhv24a6.jpg

PA180475%202_zpschstlbuf.jpg

 

 

 

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GottmitAlex

Thank you Walt! 

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Walt
7 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Thank you Walt! 

You are welcome. Here's some more palms I photographed yesterday.

LJP%20coconut%20palm_zpsu54h4hcl.jpg

Above photo shows coconut palm in front yard of home located in Lake June Pointe subdivision, which is located on the east shore of Lake June, just one mile west of the town of Lake Placid, Florida.

LJP%20coconut%20majesty%20palms_zpscxvhu

Above photo shows coconut palms and majesty palm growing in back yard of residence in Lake June Pointe. This home is across the street from the lakeside homes, but still gets benefit of the lake effect due to its proximity.

Lake%20Serena%20coconut%20palms_zpsfcdm2

Above photo shows the crowns of coconut palms at residence on the north shore of Lake Serena, just south of town (Lake Placid). Note Butiagrus palm in front yard.

 

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Cluster

Hello Walt.

The first picture with the 2 coconuts, they are looking perfect, full crown. Thanks for the explanation. 

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IHB1979
22 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Do you think I could grow this?

I would be willing to try this too, Yunder. After a quick search the hybrid seems to be a difficult palm to find.

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Yunder Wækraus
7 minutes ago, IHB1979 said:

I would be willing to try this too, Yunder. After a quick search the hybrid seems to be a difficult palm to find.

Is it difficult or impossible to find?

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IHB1979
1 minute ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Is it difficult or impossible to find?

Leaning towards impossible.

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Yunder Wækraus
4 minutes ago, IHB1979 said:

Leaning towards impossible.

Bummer :-(

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IHB1979
4 hours ago, Walt said:

You are welcome. Here's some more palms I photographed yesterday.

LJP%20coconut%20palm_zpsu54h4hcl.jpg

Above photo shows coconut palm in front yard of home located in Lake June Pointe subdivision, which is located on the east shore of Lake June, just one mile west of the town of Lake Placid, Florida.

LJP%20coconut%20majesty%20palms_zpscxvhu

Above photo shows coconut palms and majesty palm growing in back yard of residence in Lake June Pointe. This home is across the street from the lakeside homes, but still gets benefit of the lake effect due to its proximity.

Lake%20Serena%20coconut%20palms_zpsfcdm2

Above photo shows the crowns of coconut palms at residence on the north shore of Lake Serena, just south of town (Lake Placid). Note Butiagrus palm in front yard.

 

Those are some great looking coconuts. 

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Walt
3 hours ago, Cluster said:

Hello Walt.

The first picture with the 2 coconuts, they are looking perfect, full crown. Thanks for the explanation. 

A full crown is indicative of favorable climatic growing conditions, at least that's what Dr. Timothy Broschat (University of Florida) told me in a lecture I attended given by him. That's why you see full crowns almost 360 degrees on coconut palms grown in very tropical conditions -- and why in Florida you see less full crowns. Of course, any palm can be deliberately over trimmed. Further, I've seen some very nice full crowned coconuts in south Florida. But by and large, most coconuts you see in Florida at the northern margins they are growing have less than full crowns.

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Walt
15 minutes ago, IHB1979 said:

Those are some great looking coconuts. 

I envy those homeowners that enjoy the lake effect climate that can grow those nice coconut palms. If I had their climate, my place would look like south Florida right now. Well, it's not bad looking now, having more than 50 species of palms and lots of tropical trees and shrubs -- but it would have dozens of varieties of coconut palms and far more tropical species of palms.

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Cluster

Hello Walt.

It is a combination of climate and nutrients or so I have read. When the weather is cool they do not absorb as much nutrients and so they can't keep their leaves as much. In this regard I have heard potassium is the one more responsible for keeping fronds, with potassium deficiency during winter an older frond that would be kept otherwise in perfect condition will turn brown sooner. On the other hand if your soil/water is not adequate these deficiencies might also show up in good climates and I believe that if you fertilize a palm adequately in a not perfect climate you can make up a bit for their harder time getting nutrients during cool weather.

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Walt

Here is proof that this coconut palm in the residential part of Lake Placid survived both January and December 2010 cold spells.

The below Google street scene (122 E. Royal Palm St.) was taken in February of 2008. The below photo was taken yesterday, Oct. 18, 2016

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.2953325,-81.3649965,3a,75y,220.19h,80.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY6WoO7hqD_cGNaWeKNiy4A!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Lake%20Placid%20coconut%20palm%203_zpsjo

 

 

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Walt
11 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Hello Walt.

It is a combination of climate and nutrients or so I have read. When the weather is cool they do not absorb as much nutrients and so they can't keep their leaves as much. In this regard I have heard potassium is the one more responsible for keeping fronds, with potassium deficiency during winter an older frond that would be kept otherwise in perfect condition will turn brown sooner. On the other hand if your soil/water is not adequate these deficiencies might also show up in good climates and I believe that if you fertilize a palm adequately in a not perfect climate you can make up a bit for their harder time getting nutrients during cool weather.

That's correct -- and that's why so many coconut palms in Florida don't have full crowns. Root activity falls way off during the winter and uptake of potassium falls way off, causing yellowing and necrosis of frond leaflets. My coconut palm looks good well up into December (my winter), but then potassium deficiency sets and and the bottom most fronds (up to 10 by springtime) are virtually dead or half dead. As such, I cut them all off and my palm has about a half crown or less. But once the warm weather sets in my palm rapidly grows out of the starved potassium condition. Right now my palm looks pretty darned good, considering my geographical location. It's sad to have to watch my palm decline over the winter, but that's the price I'm willing to pay just to have a coconut palm.

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GottmitAlex
5 minutes ago, Walt said:

Here is proof that this coconut palm in the residential part of Lake Placid survived both January and December 2010 cold spells.

The below Google street scene (122 E. Royal Palm St.) was taken in February of 2008. The below photo was taken yesterday, Oct. 18, 2016

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.2953325,-81.3649965,3a,75y,220.19h,80.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY6WoO7hqD_cGNaWeKNiy4A!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Lake%20Placid%20coconut%20palm%203_zpsjo

 

 

Great pictures Walt. And as always, reading your posts is very instructional. Of course your modesty won't allow me to say educational.

I have noticed reading the different threads regarding the "2010 doomsday freeze", it seems the general implication is all the tropical palms (especially coconuts) disappeared from the face of the the State.  Your pictures and insight prove otherwise. Is this a state-wide rumor? Myth? 

The gist I receive from the related posts regarding coconut palms in Florida is "That palm must have been placed in the ground after the 2010 freeze", "When, after Jan 2010 of course, was that palm planted?" etc etc etc. 

 

 

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Walt
1 minute ago, GottmitAlex said:

Great pictures Walt. And as always, reading your posts is very instructional. Of course your modesty won't allow me to say educational.

I have noticed reading the different threads regarding the "2010 doomsday freeze", it seems the general implication is all the tropical palms (especially coconuts) disappeared from the face of the the State.  Your pictures and insight prove otherwise. Is this a state-wide rumor? Myth? 

The gist I receive from the related posts regarding coconut palms in Florida is "That palm must have been placed in the ground after the 2010 freeze", "When, after Jan 2010 of course, was that palm planted?" etc etc etc. 

 

 

I can only speak for my neck of the woods in Florida (Highlands County). The month of December 2010 proved to be a record breaker for all-time lowest average monthly temperature in Florida and Georgia. I have (and will post later once I upload it) part of our local newspaper weather page for part of December 2010 showing Archbold Biological Station (8 miles south of the town of Lake Placid) recording lows of 18 and 19 degrees on consecutive days. I recorded 20.7 degrees at my place (in my open front yard) on the coldest morning during a string of 11 days running below normal.

Of all the coconut palms I know about in my environs, only a few were killed. Of course, all of them received cold damage to one extent or the other. All had potassium deficiency, but many appeared to have manganese and/or boron deficiency in some of the new spring fronds. But all palms that survived quickly grew out of that condition.

So the upshot is with respect to my area, there was no significant numerical loss in coconut palms, at least mature ones..

 

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Walt

I saved this newspaper clipping which recorded the low temperatures at Archbold Biological Station, just south of the town of Lake Placid, Florida. You may note that this is in the area of the newest USDA hardiness map that shows it as a small geographical area of 9a, within the remaining 9b area of Highlands County. As you can see there were two nights below 20F degrees (8b), 18 and 19 degrees lows. On the 18 degree night is when I recorded 20.7 degrees in my open yard. My property backs to state property on the north and it can get very cold there.

Archbold Biological Station's all-time record low is 13 degrees F on two occasions, the last time being on January 5, 2001. I used to have a digital image of the newspaper weather page clipping showing the 13 degree temperature. I'm not sure if I still have that as the computer I had the image on, the hard drive crashed (no back up). But if I can find the image on my old desk top computer (in the closet) I will post the image.

Archbold%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy_zps4lv3fa

 

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Cluster

Hello Walt.

Just curious what has been your record for the lowest high? 

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Walt
49 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Hello Walt.

Just curious what has been your record for the lowest high? 

I don't record my highs, but I consulted the closest "official" weather station. This station is run by the University of Florida, and they have a 10 meter tower. They measure air temperatures at 60 cm, 2 m, and 10 m, along with soil temperature, humidity, dew point, wind speed, direction, etc. I went to their website and ran a report for both January 2010, also December 2010. Both months, while separated by 11 months, were very cold. In fact, January of 2010 actually had the lowest low temperatures, but the overall average temperatures were slightly higher than December of 2010. Anyway, the lowest high for January of 2010 was 47.3F (8.42C). December 2010 had the lowest high of 51.93 (11 C), Both highs are far, far below normal for December. I'm not sure what December's average high temperature is, but January's (our coldest month) average high is 73-74 degrees (23.1C).

Thing is, averages don't mean much when all it takes is one bad arctic blast running straight down the spine of Florida. I've got freeze devastation photos you would find hard to believe.

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Mr. Coconut Palm
On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2016‎ ‎8‎:‎12‎:‎39‎, Walt said:

When I check winter time low temperatures, hands down the reporting station in St. Pete almost invariably runs warmer than any other reporting station in central Florida. In fact, I've actually seen some mornings when St. Pete ran warmer in most S.E. costal locations Florida locations, and certainly warmer than Ft. Myers and Naples in S.W. Florida.

With respect to my area, Highlands County and the greater Lake Placid (town) area, high ground (Lake Wales Ridge) and lakeside areas run 3/4 to 1 full USDA zone warmer than low ground and away from the lakes areas. Some areas just south of Lake Placid (near Archbold Biological Station) are actually 8b most winters, and 9a at best. What physics are going on in this area (shown on the newest USDA  hardiness map) I don't know.

I have many personal friends who own lake front properties (and have met many more lake front property owners that I've conversed with), and they can grow pretty much any palm and tropical shrub, tree, etc., that south Florida can. I have a friend that owns a home on Lake Pearl (on the south side of Lake Placid town). When you turn into his driveway you start to go down hill, as his entire property is in the outer crater of the sink hole lake. It's like living in a giant tea cup. He gets the full warming effect of the lake during the winter. He has the biggest turquoise jade vine I've even seen growing on an arbor. He grows huge West Indian avocados (the most cold tender of the genus). He also had the biggest sea grape tree in Lake Placid -- until he cut it down. Fortunately, I got seeds from it and started my own trees from them.

Next month I intend to traverse as many lake side locations as I can to video zone 10+ palms and shrubs, and trees, then edit them and upload same to YouTube. What you will see (coconut palms, royals, foxtails, carpentaria, solitaire, huge banyan trees, fiddle leaf figs, etc., will serve as testament to the lake micro and meso climates. Same for high ground.

The below Google street scene shows some coconut palms growing at Lake Grassy Inn and Suites. These palms I can attest to have been there more than 10 years, and survived the horrid cold of both January and December 2010.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.2534869,-81.3407555,3a,75y,72.3h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVfPubBvpYCGpKk_WXwCoEQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DVfPubBvpYCGpKk_WXwCoEQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D70.257324%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

I have thought for some time that St. Petersburg is an underrated area of Florida's west coast when it comes to being able to grow tropical trees, including coconut palms.  I remember seeing what appeared to be about a 35ft. to 40ft. tall in overall height Green Malayan Dwarf back in 2000 or 2001 on the way to either the Skyway Bridge or Ft. Desoto, I forget which, but it was growing in the lawn on the south side of what appeared to be an apartment complex.  It rivaled the very healthy Green Malayans you see in the Ft. Lauderdale area.  Nice coconut palms in your link, Walt, including the one behind the building.

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Walt
15 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I have thought for some time that St. Petersburg is an underrated area of Florida's west coast when it comes to being able to grow tropical trees, including coconut palms.  I remember seeing what appeared to be about a 35ft. to 40ft. tall in overall height Green Malayan Dwarf back in 2000 or 2001 on the way to either the Skyway Bridge or Ft. Desoto, I forget which, but it was growing in the lawn on the south side of what appeared to be an apartment complex.  It rivaled the very healthy Green Malayans you see in the Ft. Lauderdale area.  Nice coconut palms in your link, Walt, including the one behind the building.

Here's a young coconut palm growing in the residential section of Lake Placid. I refer to it (and others like it) as "high ground" coconuts, as opposed to "lake effect: coconuts, as the nearest lake to this palm is 3-4 blocks to the south.

Such coconuts survive in the general 9b USDA rating area because in essence they are in zone 10a/b due to being located at higher elevation compared to Florida in general. 70-100' of elevation in inland Florida translates to 3/4-1 full USDA hardiness zone increase -- at least for radiational cooling nights which comprise 95% of the coldest nights.

Lake%20Placid%20coconut%202_zps8ofrd5sm.

 

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Walt

Below is another "high ground" coconut palm growing just west of down town Lake Placid. This palm was almost killed during the December 2010 cold, but pulled through.

Lake%20Placid%20high%20ground%20coconut_

 

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GottmitAlex
2 hours ago, Walt said:

Below is another "high ground" coconut palm growing just west of down town Lake Placid. This palm was almost killed during the December 2010 cold, but pulled through.

Lake%20Placid%20high%20ground%20coconut_

 

What is the elevation (+or -) there Walt?

(Thanks for the pictures)

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Walt
1 hour ago, GottmitAlex said:

What is the elevation (+or -) there Walt?

(Thanks for the pictures)

I'm not sure of the exact elevation, only approximately. I have some topographical maps stored away someplace where I could verify the elevation. However, I feel the area where that particular coconut palm is growing is around 120-130 feet in elevation relative to most of the Florida off the Lake Wales Ridge. That little elevation make a big, big difference on radiational cooling nights when there is little or no wind. The air becomes stratified and the temperature rises probably one degree with every 10 feet in elevation (relative to closer to sea level or 5-10 feet above sea level. A couple of winters ago my wife drove from the bottom of a hill to the top of the hill and the temperature rose 8 degrees.

In any event, Lake Placid Elementary School has a weather station tied into Weather Underground network. The school is only about three blocks away from where the coconut palm is growing. If you click on the below link you will see on the map graphic Lake Placid Elementary School. If you enlarge the map you will see a street (Michigan Ave) just to the N.W. of the school. That is where the coconut palm is growing. Also, you can see the same coconut palm on Google Earth street scene, a photo taken just months after the bad December 2010 freezes. The palm looks about dead, but as you can see it survived and is no worse for wear now.

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KFLLAKEP12

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Walt

The below palm is on relatively high ground and about two blocks from the east shore of Lake Serena. I've know about this coconut palm for about as long as the two tall coconut palms I posted in this thread. The first photo below I took of the palm from one angle. The second photo I took from another angle.

Lake%20Placid%20south%20coconut%20palm_z

Lake%20Placid%20south%20Cocos%20nucifera

 

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