Jump to content
trioderob

Best micro climate in all of Florida ?

Recommended Posts

Eric in Orlando

Ceiba speciosa and Bombax ceiba are similar in hardiness, C. speciosa is a bit hardier.

Ceiba pentandra is less hardy but not super tender. They are hardier than Delonix regia. There is a big specimen at Disney at Epcot growing in the jungle adjacent to the Mexican pyramid (along with Bombax ceiba and Ceiba speciosa). Its been there since Epcot opened in 1982. It did get moderate damages in the 3 '80s freezes. They also have a big C. pentandra at Animal Kingdom. 

Here at Leu Gardens we have mature Bombax ceiba and Ceiba speciosa. We have some young Ceiba pentandra growing. We had one specimen growing out during the 2009-10 winter and it survived fine. It seems there was 2 good sized Ceiba pentandra growing here back in the 1950's when Leu Gardens was still the private Leu estate. I don't know what happened to them, maybe died in the  1957-58 freeze.

Here is the Epcot specimen;

 

582f.jpg

 

img_2908.jpg

 

 

And here is the one at Animal Kingdom

 

dce0.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric in Orlando

There is one growing south of downtown Orlando. It is in a bad neighborhood. Sometime in the early 1990's someone planted this tree and 2 Roystonea regia. The only time I saw the tree damaged was after the 1995-96 winter. But someone cuts it back every few years. I actually drove by this place last week and now the tree seems to have been left alone and allowed to grow. There is also a new, younger specimen on the other side of the yard.

This streetview is from 2014, the tree is bigger now.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5182357,-81.3951516,3a,75y,183.23h,91.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXlfg-OJCVzJ_vpiWftp7uA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric in Orlando

The big "Kapok" tree in Clearwater is actually a Bombax ceiba. This is growing where the old, infamous Kapok Tree Inn used to be.

There also used to be a huge Bombax ceiba at Bok Tower Gardens. It froze to the ground in the 1989 freeze (they were down near 20F) but had grown back to about 50ft. Hurricane Charley took it out in 2004.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yunder Wækraus
50 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

 

That is a nice Kapok!

 

 

If we use the car in the foreground as a measure, the tree appears to be at least 45-50' tall, which is decent for any Florida hardwood tree (none of which reach even 100' anywhere in the state). I could be wrong, but I think royal palms are the tallest trees in the state of FL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yunder Wækraus
36 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Ceiba speciosa and Bombax ceiba are similar in hardiness, C. speciosa is a bit hardier.

Ceiba pentandra is less hardy but not super tender. They are hardier than Delonix regia. There is a big specimen at Disney at Epcot growing in the jungle adjacent to the Mexican pyramid (along with Bombax ceiba and Ceiba speciosa). Its been there since Epcot opened in 1982. It did get moderate damages in the 3 '80s freezes. They also have a big C. pentandra at Animal Kingdom. 

Here at Leu Gardens we have mature Bombax ceiba and Ceiba speciosa. We have some young Ceiba pentandra growing. We had one specimen growing out during the 2009-10 winter and it survived fine. It seems there was 2 good sized Ceiba pentandra growing here back in the 1950's when Leu Gardens was still the private Leu estate. I don't know what happened to them, maybe died in the  1957-58 freeze.

Here is the Epcot specimen;

 

582f.jpg

 

img_2908.jpg

 

 

And here is the one at Animal Kingdom

 

dce0.jpg

 

The pictures above are definitely not the same species as the Pahokee specimens. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yunder Wækraus
35 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

There is one growing south of downtown Orlando. It is in a bad neighborhood. Sometime in the early 1990's someone planted this tree and 2 Roystonea regia. The only time I saw the tree damaged was after the 1995-96 winter. But someone cuts it back every few years. I actually drove by this place last week and now the tree seems to have been left alone and allowed to grow. There is also a new, younger specimen on the other side of the yard.

This streetview is from 2014, the tree is bigger now.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5182357,-81.3951516,3a,75y,183.23h,91.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXlfg-OJCVzJ_vpiWftp7uA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Is it the shrubby one in the yard with the large royals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric in Orlando

They are all the same. Just a variable tree but all get a big fluted buttress eventually. Some always have smooth trunks, some have a few spines but loose them and a few will keep some spines on mature specimens.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric in Orlando
26 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Is it the shrubby one in the yard with the large royals?

 

 

Yes, the bare tree with a zillion branches.

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coconutman

Sanibel Island in SW Florida seems like a great place. It's east to west orientation alone the gulf is rather interesting. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric in Orlando

Sanibel does seem like a good microclimate. I haven't been there in about 20 years. But I remember seeing some Breadfruit trees the last time I was there. 

Our family used to go there a lot in the '80s. I remember seeing damaged coconuts and royals in Ft. Myers after the '85 freeze but they were fine on Sanibel, even Pritchardia pacifica/thurstonii.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sur4z

Steve Stern's place in the Redlands is the epicenter for rare and exotic palms  rarepalms.com

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trioderob
On 9/24/2016, 8:38:20, Josh-O said:

Robert (Trioderob)you knew it would be key west before you started this thread..

Image result for trumpjust saying!!!

 

.......................wrong

Edited by trioderob
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Josh-O
3 minutes ago, trioderob said:

.......................wrong

where were you thinking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bubba

The Ceiba pentendra located south of Whitehall and behind the Church on the south bike trail is the Florida State Champion. I turned it in and after about a year I got a call from someone from some State agency who said it blew away the former Champeen in Key Biscayne. The poor guy was kinda stuttering.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eric in Orlando

That one in Palm Beach is awesome. There are a couple on Royal Palm Way. Just after you cross from the mainland onto the island on Royal Park Bridge they flank the road on each side. They are younger specimens but beginning to develop nicely. I wonder if these were grown off the Flagler specimen.

There is also a huge buttressed specimen somewhere in Palm Beach in a private garden.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt

As I stated in my first post at the beginning of this thread, a temperature reporting station in St. Pete, Florida, almost invariably runs warmer (in wintertime low temperatures) than any other location in central Florida -- and many in south Florida, especially S.W. Florida.

The graphics posted below confirm this. These graphics are not some one-time occurring anomaly, but rather, typical most all winter long.

The first graphic shows the color (temperature) contrast difference across the peninsula. Note the color shades showing heat island effect in Orlando, Lakeland, and Leesburg, and much of Pinellas County (St. Pete), points around Lake Okeechobee, and S.E. Florida.

Note in the second graphic the temperature gradients (over short distances) across Pinellas County, and how the temperature becomes increasingly colder towards the N.E.

Note in the third graphic how St. Pete's low temperature (7:00 a.m.) is far warmer then the entire S.W. coast of Florida and many points in coastal S.E. Florida -- including Miami!

Temperture%20plot%201_zpsbnf1ulic.jpg

Temperature%20plot%202_zpsognzsbob.jpg

Temperature%20plots_zpsomwpvwxb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yunder Wækraus
On 9/25/2016, 12:50:13, Loxahatchee Adam said:

I wouldn't consider the Keys a microclimate as they are just there.  The weather is as expected for being islands in the ocean.  While they may have Zone 11 weather, they are a rainfall desert compared to the rest on mainland Florida and the soil is horrible.  It is mostly completely alkaline limestone/sand/coral rock.  Caribbean palms will do great there, but rainforest palms that want rich and constantly moist soil are not going to be happy.  Salt spray issues also within a few blocks of the ocean.

I agree with Yunder Wækraus on Pahokee.  Western and central (sugar cane) Palm Beach County can be exceptionally cold and were classified as solid 9b for decades...rightfully so.   Pahokee's location tucked into the SW edge of Lake Okeechobee affords it tremendous cold protection.  There is no way for cold air to run down the spine of the state without being moderated by the Lake.  Belle Glade, South Bay, and Clewiston have some protection also, but not like Pahokee does.  They are further removed from the water and air can move in from the W or NW less moderated by the water.    Pahokee also has amazing soil.  Nearby Belle Glade's city motto is "Her Soil is Her Fortune"   The soil is deep rich black former swamp muck on sand that was drained long ago.  

The location also leads to increased rainfall as the lake is large enough to form a lake breeze boundary that acts as a focus for rain and thunderstorms.  The inland location and massive dike provide much better hurricane wind protection than the coast.

Pahokee's location is circled in yellow.  When strong cold fronts come through, the cold air generally flows down from the NW, sometimes W or N though.  Either way, the city is protected by the water which I doubt drops much below 70 F / 21 C even in a cold winter.  I put a red dot where I am, for reference.  About as far west in urban Palm Beach County as one can be.  It's one of the colder locations in the county, but my small area is former cypress swamp and the 4" / 10 cm muck on sand soil is amazing.  Most of even Loxahatchee is higher pine area that is primarily rocky/shelly sterile sand.

In Pahokee, I've never paid much attention to smaller landscape cold sensitive plants, but I have seen Sausage Trees, Ylang Ylang, Pseudobombax/Shaving Brush, large Banyans, and giant Kapoks that would not have made it through hard freezes in the surrounding areas in the 1980s otherwise.

Is Pahokee the least cold spot in the state?  No.  Key West wins.  But Pahokee is definitely a mostly tropical microclimate and many Zone 10 tropicals (so not Breadfruit, Areca catechu, Cyrtostachys, etc) will do great there.  Most Zone 10 palms, shrubs, and trees will thrive in the ground there vs the Keys because of double the rainfall and 1000 times better soil.

Pahokee.jpg

I really appreciate this post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RedRabbit
53 minutes ago, Walt said:

As I stated in my first post at the beginning of this thread, a temperature reporting station in St. Pete, Florida, almost invariably runs warmer (in wintertime low temperatures) than any other location in central Florida -- and many in south Florida, especially S.W. Florida.

The graphics posted below confirm this. These graphics are not some one-time occurring anomaly, but rather, typical most all winter long.

The first graphic shows the color (temperature) contrast difference across the peninsula. Note the color shades showing heat island effect in Orlando, Lakeland, and Leesburg, and much of Pinellas County (St. Pete), points around Lake Okeechobee, and S.E. Florida.

Note in the second graphic the temperature gradients (over short distances) across Pinellas County, and how the temperature becomes increasingly colder towards the N.E.

Note in the third graphic how St. Pete's low temperature (7:00 a.m.) is far warmer then the entire S.W. coast of Florida and many points in coastal S.E. Florida -- including Miami!

Temperture%20plot%201_zpsbnf1ulic.jpg

Temperature%20plot%202_zpsognzsbob.jpg

Temperature%20plots_zpsomwpvwxb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those are some great graphics, thanks for sharing Walt! Where did you get them?

As far as St. Pete is concerned, I think I've mentioned before that USDA puts part of St. Pete as the warmest location on all of the west coast. There's a real possibility when the next map comes out a slither of St. Pete is classified as 10b.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth
36 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Those are some great graphics, thanks for sharing Walt! Where did you get them?

As far as St. Pete is concerned, I think I've mentioned before that USDA puts part of St. Pete as the warmest location on all of the west coast. There's a real possibility when the next map comes out a slither of St. Pete is classified as 10b.

The data for the Whitted airport goes back to 1987, and the average low during that time is 38.75˚. The problem is that number only includes the 1989 freeze (29˚), and there have been other, colder freezes. Some online resources actually list data for Whitted that's much older, but that data comes from the Clearwater airport, though this can give us some good information.

I'm planning on doing some statistics today to try and approximate the difference between the two airports so that I can fit the Clearwater data to the Whitted data to get a good idea of what kind of temperatures Kopsick would have seen before 198 (with error bars). I have info from Anna Maria during the worst freezes of the century so I can maybe compare the two to see which is warmer.

From the information that I can tell you now, the worst freeze for our area of the century was 1962. Osprey, in Sarasota, recorded a low of 26˚. Palma Sola, on the mainland of Bradenton (but in a relatively good microclimate) was 26˚, so Anna Maria was probably between 27-27˚. 1983 was the worst freeze of the 80's, and Siesta Key saw 29˚. We can approximate that Anna Maria was something around that temperature without sacrificing much as far as survival of tropicals go.

 

I'm hoping to have the statistics done at some point today and I'll post them here when I do.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RedRabbit
9 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

The data for the Whitted airport goes back to 1987, and the average low during that time is 38.75˚. The problem is that number only includes the 1989 freeze (29˚), and there have been other, colder freezes. Some online resources actually list data for Whitted that's much older, but that data comes from the Clearwater airport, though this can give us some good information.

I'm planning on doing some statistics today to try and approximate the difference between the two airports so that I can fit the Clearwater data to the Whitted data to get a good idea of what kind of temperatures Kopsick would have seen before 198 (with error bars). I have info from Anna Maria during the worst freezes of the century so I can maybe compare the two to see which is warmer.

From the information that I can tell you now, the worst freeze for our area of the century was 1962. Osprey, in Sarasota, recorded a low of 26˚. Palma Sola, on the mainland of Bradenton (but in a relatively good microclimate) was 26˚, so Anna Maria was probably between 27-27˚. 1983 was the worst freeze of the 80's, and Siesta Key saw 29˚. We can approximate that Anna Maria was something around that temperature without sacrificing much as far as survival of tropicals go.

 

I'm hoping to have the statistics done at some point today and I'll post them here when I do.

I'll be very interested to see what you come up with. As I said above, USDA puts part of St. Pete as the warmest location on FL's west coast. I have a hard time believing that, but I'm starting to wonder if that might be accurate.

What I'm considering is, perhaps between the water and urban heating St. Pete actually does have the highest avg annual lows, but it is more succeptable to outlier advective freezes thus limiting what can be grown long term. Therefore, the spot with the warmest avg lows isn't actually the best place for palms.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth

I made a mistake in the original post when typing it. The low for Osprey was 20˚, and the general area was similar. The rest of the info was correct, i.e. the low of 26˚ for Palma sola, etc.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt
3 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Those are some great graphics, thanks for sharing Walt! Where did you get them?

As far as St. Pete is concerned, I think I've mentioned before that USDA puts part of St. Pete as the warmest location on all of the west coast. There's a real possibility when the next map comes out a slither of St. Pete is classified as 10b.

I took some digital camera computer screen shots or WINK News Ft. Myers, Florida, website. On their weather page they have some good graphics. Click on the below link to bring up their weather page. Then scroll down to the Florida graphic ( shift it to see all of Florida if desired). Then at bottom right corner of graphic, click on "layers." Then click on "Temperature" or "Temperature Plots" etc. On Temperatures you will get the color contrasts representing temperature changes. I like this feature as you can readily see relative temperature differences at a glance and see how water bodies have a temperature effect on the air temperatures.

Keep in mind that isolated cloud cover could be over a particular area, making it warmer than a near by area that should be as warm, but because the latter area doesn't have cloud cover at that particular time, it may be several degrees colder. This is mainly on windless radiational cooling nights.

http://www.winknews.com/weather/

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt

The below graphic shows some thermal lake effect (yellowish coloration) of Lake Istokpoga, Highlands County's largest lake. I found lots of mature royal palms growing on the east side of the lake.

100_8124_zpsjgu1o3ol.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt

Some say the Outer Banks of North Carolina is rated USDA 9A. I, for the most part, tend to believe it, although winter daytime highs are probably lower than say a more southerly zone 9a, especially inland 9a locations.

I first visited the Outer Banks in the summer of 1963, and again in 1964. In 1968 I was in the navy stationed in Norfolk, Va. Me and a navy buddy from San Diego, California, would often drive down to the Outer Banks on weekends, camping out at various camp grounds there. My buddy was amazed how warm the Atlantic Ocean was than the cold Pacific in southern California. I think the changing current of the Gulf Stream also had a bearing on the water temperature, as recall days when the water was more cooler (and darker), and then days when the water was 85 degrees and clearer.

In any event, I recall seeing a few palms back in the day but had no idea the species, as I wasn't into palms at the time, at least in terms of knowing different species. I asked my buddy from San Diego (he grew up with all kinds of palm species there) and he didn't know.

The below graphic is from December 29, 2011, at 7:00 a.m. showing most of S.E. Virginia, most of eastern North Carolina, and N.E. South Carolina. Note the marked temperature difference (higher over the Outer Banks) between the mainland and the Outer Banks. Note it's 45 degrees at Cape Hatteras, N.C.,  and only 34 degrees at Charleston, S.C.!

I was also stationed in Charleston, S.C. from November of 1968 to June of 1970. I remember the day my ship left to go to the Caribbean on February 1st, 1969. It was overcast in the high 30s. We steamed due east, and in a few hours we must have been close to the Gulf Stream, as it felt like springtime. It was almost like being in the tropics, as the air temperature was warmer and more humid. The weather just kept getting better and better as we steamed south. 

100_8126_zpsw37houpt.jpg

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth
7 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I'll be very interested to see what you come up with. As I said above, USDA puts part of St. Pete as the warmest location on FL's west coast. I have a hard time believing that, but I'm starting to wonder if that might be accurate.

What I'm considering is, perhaps between the water and urban heating St. Pete actually does have the highest avg annual lows, but it is more succeptable to outlier advective freezes thus limiting what can be grown long term. Therefore, the spot with the warmest avg lows isn't actually the best place for palms.

Okay, so I finished my analysis. Here's what I did:

The St. Pete data from Whitted goes back to 1987, but the Clearwater data goes back to 1914. I picked these two locations because they're reasonably close to each-other, but one has the benefit of a better microclimate. I then randomly deleted 5 data points from each set and compared the two on a graph where one data set was from St. Pete, and the other was from Clearwater. This allowed me to make a trend line that would approximate what the temperature would be like in St. Pete if I input a value X for St. Pete. I then took the equation from the trend-line, and I input the 5 deleted data-points to see how well my trend approximated what those 5 points would have been. All of those values were within 1 degree. I then calculated standard deviation and found that the data has a standard deviation of 2˚. This means that 95% of all of the data should be within 2 degrees of the extrapolated values. I then extrapolated the values and graphed them. 

The average for the known values from the station is 38.75˚, and the average for my values that were extrapolated back to 1914 was 38.28˚. The most notably cold year on my extrapolated graph was 1962 (as expected), and the value that I calculated for that year was 26˚. This doesn't quite mean that 1962 was 26˚ in St. Pete, but that there's a 95% chance that it wasn't colder than 24˚. 

Here is the graph, and I'm uploading a searchable pdf file with the actual results. 

58054a0d2b49d_Kopsickextrapolated.png.a0

Kopsick final extrapolated data.pdf

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Palmaceae

I lived in St Pete for 9 years and I think they need to move their sensors from Albert Whitted airport and move it more toward Kopsick or even a mile or so inland. I know for a fact Albert Whitted does not reflect true St Pete temps unless you are at the airport right on the bay. I lived 3.4 miles from Albert Whitted and I recorded 25 as a low a couple times in the 80's.

Also the lack of coconut palms in St Pete in the 80's, even downtown St Pete, (I only knew of a couple and they looked awful), also reflect the temps at the airport does not reflect all of St Pete.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth
4 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

I lived in St Pete for 9 years and I think they need to move their sensors from Albert Whitted airport and move it more toward Kopsick or even a mile or so inland. I know for a fact Albert Whitted does not reflect true St Pete temps unless you are at the airport right on the bay. I lived 3.4 miles from Albert Whitted and I recorded 25 as a low a couple times in the 80's.

Yeah there's not much I can do to account for that fact. All I can say is that the data works for the airport microclimate. Maybe USF St. Pete needs to start planting more coconuts.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Palmaceae
4 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Yeah there's not much I can do to account for that fact. All I can say is that the data works for the airport microclimate. Maybe USF St. Pete needs to start planting more coconuts.

Yes, they should! I tried to talk the city into planting coconut palms in the 80's, little did I know what the weather had in store for us, so none got planted. I had several coconut palms in the 80's but never got one to trunk as they were all killed off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth
Just now, Palmaceae said:

Yes, they should! I tried to talk the city into planting coconut palms in the 80's, little did I know what the weather had in store for us, so none got planted.

St. Pete strikes me as odd sometimes because the things that are common in Bradenton and Sarasota (coconuts and royals) aren't very common in St. Pete (outside of Sunken Gardens and Kopsick), but other cold tender palms like Adonidia and Veitchia seem to be everywhere. Luckily in a few years there'll be enough Beccariophoenix alfredii going around that maybe some central Fl cities can be talked into the cold tolerant coconut alternative that doesn't need to be pruned to keep coconuts from hitting people's cars. I think they'd be perfect for the atmosphere that Sarasota usually tries to go for, which seems to be Miami-lite.

I wonder if the CFPACS would fund a amateur weather station at Kopsick to sync with wunderground. It's the best palm garden in Central Florida (I would rate the FIT garden as #2), so it seems like a worthy place to put one...

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt
41 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

I lived in St Pete for 9 years and I think they need to move their sensors from Albert Whitted airport and move it more toward Kopsick or even a mile or so inland. I know for a fact Albert Whitted does not reflect true St Pete temps unless you are at the airport right on the bay. I lived 3.4 miles from Albert Whitted and I recorded 25 as a low a couple times in the 80's.

Also the lack of coconut palms in St Pete in the 80's, even downtown St Pete, (I only knew of a couple and they looked awful), also reflect the temps at the airport does not reflect all of St Pete.

When I was in the navy, I had a shipmate who was born and raised in St. Pete (he still lives there today). When our ship was being home ported from Charleston, S.C., to Key West, Florida, (in June of 1970) I told him how I was looking forward to living where coconut palms grow. I asked him if they had coconut palms in St. Pete. His answer: No, it's too cold there. While I realize that is only anecdotal, I gave a fair degree of credibility to his answer since he grew up in St. Pete. In retrospect, knowing what I know now, I don't doubt there may have been some coconuts around (even though maybe short lived), but certainly they were far from ubiquitous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth
5 minutes ago, Walt said:

When I was in the navy, I had a shipmate who was born and raised in St. Pete (he still lives there today). When our ship was being home ported from Charleston, S.C., to Key West, Florida, (in June of 1970) I told him how I was looking forward to living where coconut palms grow. I asked him if they had coconut palms in St. Pete. His answer: No, it's too cold there. While I realize that is only anecdotal, I gave a fair degree of credibility to his answer since he grew up in St. Pete. In retrospect, knowing what I know now, I don't doubt there may have been some coconuts around (even though maybe short lived), but certainly they were far from ubiquitous.

There actually aren't that many coconuts in St. Pete even today, and the Whitted microclimate isn't very expansive (as Pastor Randy mentioned), unlike the Anna Maria microclimate, which covers the entire island.

 

The ones that are there can grow up to be beautiful specimens though :greenthumb:

IMG_6790.thumb.jpg.3cdc4b242a860ddd38f9c

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Palmaceae

I remember moving to St Pete in 1980, and getting into growing palms, and reading articles and seeing pictures of coconut palms in St Pete and on Clearwater beach, not a lot of them, but some. I thought I can grow these! Well I found out quickly that was not happening :D, at least in the 80's. I thought, great I move to Florida and we are having a mini ice age :D.  So when we moved back to Florida a couple years ago that we are going to SW Florida and hope that the mini ice age will not follow me here!

I agree Walt, coconut palms were never abundant in St Pete (and even today there are not many), and in the 80's there were only a few large ones that were very well protected, and some of those were killed in '89.

Keith, I agree, the weather station should be at Kopsick, that would be a perfect spot for one.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt
5 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

There actually aren't that many coconuts in St. Pete even today, and the Whitted microclimate isn't very expansive (as Pastor Randy mentioned), unlike the Anna Maria microclimate, which covers the entire island.

 

The ones that are there can grow up to be beautiful specimens though :greenthumb:

IMG_6790.thumb.jpg.3cdc4b242a860ddd38f9c

I have no doubt there are many more coconut palms in the St. Pete area today, and for multiple reasons. One, I think with urbanization there is a greater heat island effect that would give a slightly better climatic effect for growing coconut palms. Two, there's far more availability of coconut palms (of all sizes). Three, there's far more a population of people to buy and plant coconut palms, especially the more affluent that can afford water front properties.

This is exactly the case going on right now in my environs (Lake Placid). Many new residents have fled S.E. Florida (for myriad reasons) and moved up here and purchased lake front properties. Most of these residents are of above average financial means. Many have had good sized coconuts and royals, etc., brought in so as to duplicate what they had in S.E. Florida.

When I retired to Florida back in 1997, I could count the number of trunked coconut palms on one hand (with some fingers left over). All were growing on lake front properties, and all were fruit bearing. The reasons for so few coconuts, IMO, were mainly two-fold. One, there was absolutely no availability in the many plant nurseries here. Plus, there were no big box stores here at the time. Two, this county is mainly a retirement community of low income retirees,  and also composed of families of lower than average income (there is very little industry and good paying jobs here); hence, most folks don't/didn't have the discretionary money to buy such luxuries (a trunked coconut palm, delivered and planted is certainly a luxury).

But, as I alluded to above, that situation is changing as more and more affluent families move into the county, plus availability is much better now. Most nurseries will special order a palm they don't normally stock.

Starting tomorrow I am going to start photographing and videoing as many trunked coconut palms I can find. Many are on the lake side (backyard) of properties; hence, they will be hard to photograph unless the property owners allow me to access the palms. In any event, I know I can find enough palms to fill a nice YouTube video, which is my main intent. When I'm done I will post it at Palmtalk.

Pastor Randy and his wife were at my house a couple of years back. I think he saw some of the coconut palms planted along US 27, just south of Lake Placid at the Lake Grassy Motel. I may be incorrect about that, but in any case he will see them when I put my  video together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth
5 minutes ago, Walt said:

I have no doubt there are many more coconut palms in the St. Pete area today, and for multiple reasons. One, I think with urbanization there is a greater heat island effect that would give a slightly better climatic effect for growing coconut palms. Two, there's far more availability of coconut palms (of all sizes). Three, there's far more a population of people to buy and plant coconut palms, especially the more affluent that can afford water front properties.

This is exactly the case going on right now in my environs (Lake Placid). Many new residents have fled S.E. Florida (for myriad reasons) and moved up here and purchased lake front properties. Most of these residents are of above average financial means. Many have had good sized coconuts and royals, etc., brought in so as to duplicate what they had in S.E. Florida.

When I retired to Florida back in 1997, I could count the number of trunked coconut palms on one hand (with some fingers left over). All were growing on lake front properties, and all were fruit bearing. The reasons for so few coconuts, IMO, were mainly two-fold. One, there was absolutely no availability in the many plant nurseries here. Plus, there were no big box stores here at the time. Two, this county is mainly a retirement community of low income retirees,  and also composed of families of lower than average income (there is very little industry and good paying jobs here); hence, most folks don't/didn't have the discretionary money to buy such luxuries (a trunked coconut palm, delivered and planted is certainly a luxury).

But, as I alluded to above, that situation is changing as more and more affluent families move into the county, plus availability is much better now. Most nurseries will special order a palm they don't normally stock.

Starting tomorrow I am going to start photographing and videoing as many trunked coconut palms I can find. Many are on the lake side (backyard) of properties; hence, they will be hard to photograph unless the property owners allow me to access the palms. In any event, I know I can find enough palms to fill a nice YouTube video, which is my main intent. When I'm done I will post it at Palmtalk.

Pastor Randy and his wife were at my house a couple of years back. I think he saw some of the coconut palms planted along US 27, just south of Lake Placid at the Lake Grassy Motel. I may be incorrect about that, but in any case he will see them when I put my  video together.

Oh, there are definitely coconuts in St. Pete, but there aren't quite as many as Bradenton, and way less than Anna Maria. Coconuts over 50 years old are also something that you really only see on Anna Maria Island (though it's becoming less common with every 1 story homestead built in the 60's that's demolished to build a 3 story McMansion).

 

I look forward to your videos!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Palmaceae
4 minutes ago, Walt said:

I have no doubt there are many more coconut palms in the St. Pete area today, and for multiple reasons. One, I think with urbanization there is a greater heat island effect that would give a slightly better climatic effect for growing coconut palms. Two, there's far more availability of coconut palms (of all sizes). Three, there's far more a population of people to buy and plant coconut palms, especially the more affluent that can afford water front properties.

This is exactly the case going on right now in my environs (Lake Placid). Many new residents have fled S.E. Florida (for myriad reasons) and moved up here and purchased lake front properties. Most of these residents are of above average financial means. Many have had good sized coconuts and royals, etc., brought in so as to duplicate what they had in S.E. Florida.

When I retired to Florida back in 1997, I could count the number of trunked coconut palms on one hand (with some fingers left over). All were growing on lake front properties, and all were fruit bearing. The reasons for so few coconuts, IMO, were mainly two-fold. One, there was absolutely no availability in the many plant nurseries here. Plus, there were no big box stores here at the time. Two, this county is mainly a retirement community of low income retirees,  and also composed of families of lower than average income (there is very little industry and good paying jobs here); hence, most folks don't/didn't have the discretionary money to buy such luxuries (a trunked coconut palm, delivered and planted is certainly a luxury).

But, as I alluded to above, that situation is changing as more and more affluent families move into the county, plus availability is much better now. Most nurseries will special order a palm they don't normally stock.

Starting tomorrow I am going to start photographing and videoing as many trunked coconut palms I can find. Many are on the lake side (backyard) of properties; hence, they will be hard to photograph unless the property owners allow me to access the palms. In any event, I know I can find enough palms to fill a nice YouTube video, which is my main intent. When I'm done I will post it at Palmtalk.

Pastor Randy and his wife were at my house a couple of years back. I think he saw some of the coconut palms planted along US 27, just south of Lake Placid at the Lake Grassy Motel. I may be incorrect about that, but in any case he will see them when I put my  video together.

Yes Walt, we did see those coconut palms along US 27, it was nice to see them there. Actually we will be in Lake Placid tomorrow for a couple days at a pastor's conference, so we will probably see more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt
22 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

I remember moving to St Pete in 1980, and getting into growing palms, and reading articles and seeing pictures of coconut palms in St Pete and on Clearwater beach, not a lot of them, but some. I thought I can grow these! Well I found out quickly that was not happening :D, at least in the 80's. I thought, great I move to Florida and we are having a mini ice age :D.  So when we moved back to Florida a couple years ago that we are going to SW Florida and hope that the mini ice age will not follow me here!

I agree Walt, coconut palms were never abundant in St Pete (and even today there are not many), and in the 80's there were only a few large ones that were very well protected, and some of those were killed in '89.

Keith, I agree, the weather station should be at Kopsick, that would be a perfect spot for one.

 

One thing I always remember my buddy from St. Pete would talk about was Treasure Island. He grew up in the 1950s there. I know in the late 1950s were some devastating freezes that would certainly kill a coconut palm -- if there were any. I see there are some coconut palms today (this is just one example):

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7710746,-82.7670905,3a,75y,2.07h,98.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK1NO6cmO-hMQY-Wgb7NHjA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The veterinarian my wife and I take our dogs to lives on a large lake. Outside his building (in the town of Lake Placid) is a huge plumeria, one of the biggest ones I've ever seen. I asked him about it, if it was ever frozen back. He told me it was indeed frozen back in the December of 1989 advective freeze. He also told me that his coconut palm he had been growing for 12 years was also killed in that same freeze.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt
6 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Oh, there are definitely coconuts in St. Pete, but there aren't quite as many as Bradenton, and way less than Anna Maria. Coconuts over 50 years old are also something that you really only see on Anna Maria Island (though it's becoming less common with every 1 story homestead built in the 60's that's demolished to build a 3 story McMansion).

 

I look forward to your videos!

I may post some teasers -- as it's going to take me some time to put together my video, as it will require days of driving around taking photos/video, then editing the video in my software program.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt
7 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

Yes Walt, we did see those coconut palms along US 27, it was nice to see them there. Actually we will be in Lake Placid tomorrow for a couple days at a pastor's conference, so we will probably see more.

I thought we talked about you seeing those coconut palms. They are standing the test of time. They made it through the December of 2010 cold spell. Note the ones growing along the lake, too. But the biggest one is right out front by the driveway entrance. If you are up in town, drive over to Lake Pearl drive (southside of town) and look at the two big coconut palms growing on that street. I know these coconuts have been there at least 13 years (when I first noticed them and took photos of them). I've seen them cold damaged three times in that time span (not bad for this far north and inland to boot).

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RedRabbit
9 hours ago, Walt said:

I took some digital camera computer screen shots or WINK News Ft. Myers, Florida, website. On their weather page they have some good graphics. Click on the below link to bring up their weather page. Then scroll down to the Florida graphic ( shift it to see all of Florida if desired). Then at bottom right corner of graphic, click on "layers." Then click on "Temperature" or "Temperature Plots" etc. On Temperatures you will get the color contrasts representing temperature changes. I like this feature as you can readily see relative temperature differences at a glance and see how water bodies have a temperature effect on the air temperatures.

Keep in mind that isolated cloud cover could be over a particular area, making it warmer than a near by area that should be as warm, but because the latter area doesn't have cloud cover at that particular time, it may be several degrees colder. This is mainly on windless radiational cooling nights.

http://www.winknews.com/weather/

Thanks Walt, I'll check it out this winter and I'll try to grab more Wunderground screenshots while I'm at it. It would be really nice if they had some sort of timelapse feature where you could get historical temp maps.

4 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Okay, so I finished my analysis. Here's what I did:

The St. Pete data from Whitted goes back to 1987, but the Clearwater data goes back to 1914. I picked these two locations because they're reasonably close to each-other, but one has the benefit of a better microclimate. I then randomly deleted 5 data points from each set and compared the two on a graph where one data set was from St. Pete, and the other was from Clearwater. This allowed me to make a trend line that would approximate what the temperature would be like in St. Pete if I input a value X for St. Pete. I then took the equation from the trend-line, and I input the 5 deleted data-points to see how well my trend approximated what those 5 points would have been. All of those values were within 1 degree. I then calculated standard deviation and found that the data has a standard deviation of 2˚. This means that 95% of all of the data should be within 2 degrees of the extrapolated values. I then extrapolated the values and graphed them. 

The average for the known values from the station is 38.75˚, and the average for my values that were extrapolated back to 1914 was 38.28˚. The most notably cold year on my extrapolated graph was 1962 (as expected), and the value that I calculated for that year was 26˚. This doesn't quite mean that 1962 was 26˚ in St. Pete, but that there's a 95% chance that it wasn't colder than 24˚. 

Here is the graph, and I'm uploading a searchable pdf file with the actual results. 

58054a0d2b49d_Kopsickextrapolated.png.a0

Kopsick final extrapolated data.pdf

 

4 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Yeah there's not much I can do to account for that fact. All I can say is that the data works for the airport microclimate. Maybe USF St. Pete needs to start planting more coconuts.

Nice work Zeeth! So it looks like it has only been below 30f twice in the past century! The all time low in Miami is 26.5F so St. Pete is basically the same as Miami? :blink:

I think you make a good point about that microclimate being limited. I kind of doubt USF St. Pete (my alma mater :D) is quite that warm even. Whitted is pretty special in that the airport is basically a pier going out into Tampa Bay. The Old Southeast / Tropical Shores and Coquina Key are probably the only places you could actually live and have the same temperature readings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...