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Best micro climate in all of Florida ?

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Yunder Wækraus
11 minutes ago, Loxahatchee Adam said:

I wouldn't consider the Keys a microclimate as they are just there.  The weather is as expected for being islands in the ocean.  While they may have Zone 11 weather, they are a rainfall desert compared to the rest on mainland Florida and the soil is horrible.  It is mostly completely alkaline limestone/sand/coral rock.  Caribbean palms will do great there, but rainforest palms that want rich and constantly moist soil are not going to be happy.  Salt spray issues also within a few blocks of the ocean.

I agree with Yunder Wækraus on Pahokee.  Western and central (sugar cane) Palm Beach County can be exceptionally cold and were classified as solid 9b for decades...rightfully so.   Pahokee's location tucked into the SW edge of Lake Okeechobee affords it tremendous cold protection.  There is no way for cold air to run down the spine of the state without being moderated by the Lake.  Belle Glade, South Bay, and Clewiston have some protection also, but not like Pahokee does.  They are further removed from the water and air can move in from the W or NW less moderated by the water.    Pahokee also has amazing soil.  Nearby Belle Glade's city motto is "Her Soil is Her Fortune"   The soil is deep rich black former swamp muck on sand that was drained long ago.  

Pahokee's location is circled in yellow.  When strong cold fronts come through, the cold air generally flows down from the NW, sometimes W or N though.  Either way, the city is protected by the water which I doubt drops much below 70 F / 21 C even in a cold winter.  I put a red dot where I am, for reference.  About as far west in urban Palm Beach County as one can be.  It's one of the colder locations in the county, but my small area is former cypress swamp and the 4" / 10 cm muck on sand soil is amazing.  Most of even Loxahatchee is higher pine area that is primarily rocky/shelly sterile sand.

Pahokee.jpg

Would you say your place gets 

colder than Pahokee?

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Loxahatchee Adam
3 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Would you say your place gets 

colder than Pahokee?

Yes, my place for sure gets colder than Pahokee.  I'm also going to be a solid 2-3 degrees colder than someone like Caribbean Palms in eastern Loxahatchee.  There is a huge temperature gradient from the coast as with most areas.  I get frost regularly in winter and people in eastern Loxahatchee 8 miles away do so less frequently. For people east of the Turnpike, frost is nearly foreign to them.

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Walt

I've posted the below graphic before to graphically illustrate the thermal effect of lake water. Since water has well over 3,000 times the heat capacity of air, the value of growing tropical palms and plants in proximity of large bodies of water is undeniable. The lakes, in essence, serve as a big radiator to re release heat into the surrounding air at night (once the air temperature drops to that below the water temperature). But moreover, notwithstanding the graphic, the palms and plants (and their mature sizes) one actually finds growing in these locations prove the point.

This graphic come from the WINK News website radar in Ft. Myers, Florida, back in December of 2010 (at the start of an 11-day cold spell). I used to consult this website (and many others so as to form a composite) to find out just what was going on in terms of nighttime low temperatures during the colder days of winter.

Of course, the real value of the lakes are during the windless, clear sky radiational cooling nights. In my area I've recorded up to a 20+ degree difference between the best lakeside locations (generally the S.E. shores) and remote low ground areas on the coldest radiational cooling nights. On advective cooling nights when the air is basically mixed and homogenous the lake effect is much less pronounced but still has some thermal effect; but these nights are generally when the cold front is coming in and the coldest air hasn't settled in yet.

The coldest advective low temperature I've ever recorded (since 1997 when I moved to Highlands County, Florida) was 29.3 degrees F. That was in January of 2003. Since there was no frost my palms and tropical plants incurred virtually no damage. Only the upper third of the highest new leaf of my traveler's palm had some desiccation damage. It's the radiational freezes that I get my lowest temperatures, along with attendant frost. My property receives no lake or elevation effect, unfortunately. Canopied areas do fare much better.

Lakeheateffect_zpsa1fe930a.jpg

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Zeeth

Pahokee is also home to one of the tallest coconuts in the state that I know of.

Pahokee coconut

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waykoolplantz

Probably I do . Large oaks and pond probably help

we lost 25-30 species in the 2010 freeze bringing us down to maybe 715 species.. Incl C Renda & Double coconut in the ground. Jeff Searle's home..10 miles further inland is always 2-3 degrees colder.

Pahokee may be better..don't know if anyone has tried as many as we have

image.jpgDrs Dransfield & Balasky discussing Madagascar palms, C Renda in background

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Yunder Wækraus
1 hour ago, Walt said:

I've posted the below graphic before to graphically illustrate the thermal effect of lake water. Since water has well over 3,000 times the heat capacity of air, the value of growing tropical palms and plants in proximity of large bodies of water is undeniable. The lakes, in essence, serve as a big radiator to re release heat into the surrounding air at night (once the air temperature drops to that below the water temperature). But moreover, notwithstanding the graphic, the palms and plants (and their mature sizes) one actually finds growing in these locations prove the point.

This graphic come from the WINK News website radar in Ft. Myers, Florida, back in December of 2010 (at the start of an 11-day cold spell). I used to consult this website (and many others so as to form a composite) to find out just what was going on in terms of nighttime low temperatures during the colder days of winter.

Of course, the real value of the lakes are during the windless, clear sky radiational cooling nights. In my area I've recorded up to a 20+ degree difference between the best lakeside locations (generally the S.E. shores) and remote low ground areas on the coldest radiational cooling nights. On advective cooling nights when the air is basically mixed and homogenous the lake effect is much less pronounced but still has some thermal effect; but these nights are generally when the cold front is coming in and the coldest air hasn't settled in yet.

The coldest advective low temperature I've ever recorded (since 1997 when I moved to Highlands County, Florida) was 29.3 degrees F. That was in January of 2003. Since there was no frost my palms and tropical plants incurred virtually no damage. Only the upper third of the highest new leaf of my traveler's palm had some desiccation damage. It's the radiational freezes that I get my lowest temperatures, along with attendant frost. My property receives no lake or elevation effect, unfortunately. Canopied areas do fare much better.

Lakeheateffect_zpsa1fe930a.jpg

I love that image. We're down to just a handful of living relatives in the glades (including a 90-year-old cousin in South Bay who actually lived through the '28 hurricane), but that part of the world will always feel magical to me. I wish it weren't a third-world hell these days. That soil would be amazing.

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Yunder Wækraus
30 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Pahokee is also home to one of the tallest coconuts in the state that I know of.

Pahokee coconut

The huge kapok tree is nothing to sneeze at either :-) My dad claims there's a pocket in Pahokee that has never had a freeze. Ever. He was raised by a farmer in South Bay, so there might be some truth to it. He says he was told that the post-1928-hurricane dike negatively affected the quality of the lakeside microclimates. Does anyone know whether Pahokee has ever had a hard freeze?

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Walt
14 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I love that image. We're down to just a handful of living relatives in the glades (including a 90-year-old cousin in South Bay who actually lived through the '28 hurricane), but that part of the world will always feel magical to me. I wish it weren't a third-world hell these days. That soil would be amazing.

In October of 1997 my wife and I bought a property with a modest house to move into until we found our present property, which we built a house on. We were driving all through the interior of Florida (south of I-4) checking out locations. One day we circumvented Lake Okeechobee. My favorite part of the drive was starting from Clewiston, over to South Bay, Belle Glade, Pahokee, etc. While my wife drove the car, from the passenger seat I started my Hi-8 video camera in Belle Glade and let it run all the way to Port Mayaca. I was very impressed with all the coconut palms, royals, and Ficus benghalensis trees. But once we got up to Port Mayaca the tropical look abruptly stopped, as if the climate definitely changed to colder. That's probably about where the climate transitions from zone 10 to zone 9b.

 

 

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Yunder Wækraus
13 minutes ago, Walt said:

In October of 1997 my wife and I bought a property with a modest house to move into until we found our present property, which we built a house on. We were driving all through the interior of Florida (south of I-4) checking out locations. One day we circumvented Lake Okeechobee. My favorite part of the drive was starting from Clewiston, over to South Bay, Belle Glade, Pahokee, etc. While my wife drove the car, from the passenger seat I started my Hi-8 video camera in Belle Glade and let it run all the way to Port Mayaca. I was very impressed with all the coconut palms, royals, and Ficus benghalensis trees. But once we got up to Port Mayaca the tropical look abruptly stopped, as if the climate definitely changed to colder. That's probably about where the climate transitions from zone 10 to zone 9b.

 

 

That pocket in Pahokee must be at least a 10b. 

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Walt
48 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

That pocket in Pahokee must be at least a 10b. 

I estimate Pahokee is a solid 10b, with some milder winters 11a. I say this because in January and February of 2006 I placed a Halsey-Taylor hi-lo thermometer on my parent's Lake June Pointe subdivision property (on 3,504 acre Lake June, just west of the town of Lake Placid) all winter long (2005-2006). On February 14th (Valentine's Day) I recorded my lowest temperature for that winter. It dropped to 27 degrees in my open yard. Yet, the thermometer at my parent's property only recorded 41 degrees. This was also confirmed with my friend's thermometer (he has a weather station) just up the street from my parent's house. He also recorded 41 degrees. His neighbor (also my friend) recorded 42 degrees from the thermometer he had next to his boat dock (closer to the water).

I refer to that day as the St. Valentine Day massacre, as I had a hard frost and it basically fried the fronds on all of my zone 10 palms (D. lutescens, D. leptochielos, adonidia, royals, alexandrae, majesty, S. sancona, S. botryophora, P. selloums, etc.). When my buddy came to visit me several days later, after all the damage had manifested itself, he could hardly believe it. That day he learned the value of living next to a large lake as opposed to where I live in an outlying area. 

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RedRabbit
2 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

That pocket in Pahokee must be at least a 10b. 

I checked the local Wunderground stations and there's no data there unfortunately. I'd be very interested to know exactly how warm it stays there. If Lake Okeechobee really stays around 70f all year there might be a case for 11a there, but without any data to back it up it is just conjecture.

FWIW, I also tried Sebring but there wasn't really any data there either... Some locations like Albert Whitted Airport on the water in St. Petersburg, Patrick AFB on Merritt Island, and all the airports in the Keys give us insight into their special microclimates. I've also thought some unfavorable microclimates like Vandenburg Airport on the edge of Tampa have been interesting because they have a downside skew on their lows (avg 28.7, min 19 :blink: )... Unfortunately, some of the best microclimates in Florida like Pahokee, Miami Beach, and AMI we don't really know much about. 

Edited by RedRabbit

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bubba

Yunder is spot on about Pahokee microclimate. I have personal knowledge through conversations with a meticulous cowboy farmer, whose house backed up to Lake O, that he had never recorded a freezing temperature. This was in the early 1990's so that commenced upon his arrival to the Glades on horseback from Arcadia, Fl. in 1919 through all the freezes of the 1980's. Evidence can be seen in that this land produced the only sweet corn in the continental US in Jan. 2010, when crops were decimated below Homestead. Yunder, is that a Seminole name?

Also, do not forget those coastal areas in PB, where the Gulfstream is only 2 miles off shore ( furthest Eastern point in Fl. is the North side of the PB Inlet).Temperatures are a minimum of 5 degrees warmer than winter lows reported at PBIA now that personal weather stations have been on-line long enough to verify. Proof is witnessed in a plethora of ultra-tropicals, including but not limited to a 50 plus foot Areca catch.

 

 

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Walt
1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

I checked the local Wunderground stations and there's no data there unfortunately. I'd be very interested to know exactly how warm it stays there. If Lake Okeechobee really stays around 70f all year there might be a case for 11a there, but without any data to back it up it is just conjecture.

FWIW, I also tried Sebring but there wasn't really any data there either... Some locations like Albert Whitted Airport on the water in St. Petersburg, Patrick AFB on Merritt Island, and all the airports in the Keys give us insight into their special microclimates. I've also thought some unfavorable microclimates like Vandenburg Airport on the edge of Tampa have been interesting because they have a downside skew on their lows (avg 28.7, min 19 :blink: )... Unfortunately, some of the best microclimates in Florida like Pahokee, Miami Beach, and AMI we don't really know much about. 

There's datae for Sebring and Lake Placid, Florida. This past winter Lake Placid Elementary School's low was 37.3 degrees (zone 10b). Fred Wild Elementary School in Sebring recorded a low of 37.1 degrees (zone 10b).

Both schools have WU STEM weather stations. LP Elementary is at 127 feet elevation (most of town is even at higher elevation).

Fred Wild Elementary is at 137 feet elevation. Elevation out here inland makes all the difference in a radiational cooling event as I've said numerous times in posts here, something that doesn't exist on the coast and other inland points off the Lake Wales Ridge.

Since 95% of the coldest weather is radiational in nature, the points in Highlands County on the LWR enjoy a higher nighttime low temperature than down off the ridge where there is no benefit of thermal lake effect.

I don't know what the town of Lake Placid low was in December of 2010 (when I bottomed out at 20.8 degrees) but I would put money it wasn't lower than the low 30s, as the fronds on the old royal palm at the Christian school wasn't  burned at all, and all of the coconut palms survived with just slight cosmetic damage, mostly from potassium deficiency.

Check out these links for the historical data:

Lake Placid Elementary School low temperature from January 2015 through January 2016. Note that the entire town of Lake Placid sits on the southern end of the Lake Wales Ridge, surrounded by 12 lakes. I believe the combination of relative elevation and lake effect account for it's higher USDA hardiness zone than what is given for the surrounding area.

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KFLLAKEP12#history/s20150130/e20160131/myear

Fred Wild Elementary School, Sebring, Florida from January 2015 through January 2016

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KFLSEBRI17

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RedRabbit
3 minutes ago, Walt said:

Check out these links for the historical data:

Lake Placid Elementary School low temperature from January 2015 through January 2016. Note that the entire town of Lake Placid sits on the southern end of the Lake Wales Ridge, surrounded by 12 lakes. I believe the combination of relative elevation and lake effect account for it's higher USDA hardiness zone than what is given for the surrounding area.

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KFLLAKEP12#history/s20150130/e20160131/myear

Fred Wild Elementary School, Sebring, Florida from January 2015 through January 2016

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KFLSEBRI17

Thanks Walt, I gave those a try but when you try to get yearly data from 2015 for example it will read 9999F. :/

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Walt
1 minute ago, RedRabbit said:

Thanks Walt, I gave those a try but when you try to get yearly data from 2015 for example it will read 9999F. :/

Nothing for Pahokee (just get zero readings from two WU reporting stations shown offshore), but Belle Glade's low last January was 40.8, so I can reliably assume Pahokee was probably slightly higher. That is zone 11a.

https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=KFLBELLE13#history/s20160101/e20160131/mmonth

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RedRabbit
18 minutes ago, bubba said:

Also, do not forget those coastal areas in PB, where the Gulfstream is only 2 miles off shore ( furthest Eastern point in Fl. is the North side of the PB Inlet).Temperatures are a minimum of 5 degrees warmer than winter lows reported at PBIA now that personal weather stations have been on-line long enough to verify. Proof is witnessed in a plethora of ultra-tropicals, including but not limited to a 50 plus foot Areca catch.

I'm seeing a low on Singer Island of 39.7F this year. Warm for sure, but not overly impressive given it was a warm year anyway. Whitted in St. Pete only went as low as 43 by comparison.

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Walt
5 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I'm seeing a low on Singer Island of 39.7F this year. Warm for sure, but not overly impressive given it was a warm year anyway. Whitted in St. Pete only went as low as 43 by comparison.

Al. Whitted must be the reporting station that FOX 13 Tampa Bay uses, as many times I'm just flabbergasted at their high low temperatures. IMO, from all the reporting I've seen over the years, Al. Whitted area has about the warmest nighttime lows than all of central Florida, including many points in south Florida. But conversely, their daytime highs are lower due to the same physics (water temperature). Holds temps up during the night but down during the day. Can't have it both ways.

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RedRabbit
2 minutes ago, Walt said:

Al. Whitted must be the reporting station that FOX 13 Tampa Bay uses, as many times I'm just flabbergasted at their high low temperatures. IMO, from all the reporting I've seen over the years, Al. Whitted area has about the warmest nighttime lows than all of central Florida, including many points in south Florida. But conversely, their daytime highs are lower due to the same physics (water temperature). Holds temps up during the night but down during the day. Can't have it both ways.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the station they're using. The avg. low since 2000 has been 38.1F and based on what is growing in the area it legitimately does look like it is 10b. However, I understand it didn't fare too well in the 80s.  

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bubba

Mr. Red Rabbit,

No question that St.Pete has a great microclimate, especially the Whitted Airport. However, using PBIA numbers,which is a cold hole, I get the following comparison:

PBIA                                                   Whitted

Jan.2016-2010                                      Jan.2016-2010

40/66/481.                                           43/61/336

47/69/594                                             42/63/406

38/66/460                                              37/59/276

51/72/672                                              48/68/551

39/66/494                                              42/63/416

41/66/477                                              37/60/325

32/61/349                                              33/55/216

I have watched the difference between minimum temperatures between PBIA and the barrier island of PB for a number of years. In the Weather Title to the Forum, I did a rather extensive analysis and the bump between PBIA and PB is between 5-7 F for minimum temperatures in our short cool down. Accordingly, I submit to you that the Gulfstream, which rolls 85-90 degrees year around and is only 2 miles off our coast does indeed create a substantial microclimate in PB. 

Add 5-7F to the minimums listed at PBIA and you have a substantial microclimate. I have no  idea how these numbers effect the mean temperature used for Koeppen analysis of T(64.8F. for lowest minimum monthly mean temperature) or the number of growing days(note the substantial disparity between PBIA and Whitted). However, at the end of the day, the vegetation and palms tell the story of climate. It does not lie. The ultra-tropical Storm grown in PB tell the story. No banana trees in PB ever burned in 2010, when PBIA was 32F. Same is true in Pahokee when we have the only Jan. 2010 sweet corn in the Continental US.

 

 

 

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Yunder Wækraus
2 hours ago, bubba said:

Mr. Red Rabbit,

No question that St.Pete has a great microclimate, especially the Whitted Airport. However, using PBIA numbers,which is a cold hole, I get the following comparison:

PBIA                                                   Whitted

Jan.2016-2010                                      Jan.2016-2010

40/66/481.                                           43/61/336

47/69/594                                             42/63/406

38/66/460                                              37/59/276

51/72/672                                              48/68/551

39/66/494                                              42/63/416

41/66/477                                              37/60/325

32/61/349                                              33/55/216

I have watched the difference between minimum temperatures between PBIA and the barrier island of PB for a number of years. In the Weather Title to the Forum, I did a rather extensive analysis and the bump between PBIA and PB is between 5-7 F for minimum temperatures in our short cool down. Accordingly, I submit to you that the Gulfstream, which rolls 85-90 degrees year around and is only 2 miles off our coast does indeed create a substantial microclimate in PB. 

Add 5-7F to the minimums listed at PBIA and you have a substantial microclimate. I have no  idea how these numbers effect the mean temperature used for Koeppen analysis of T(64.8F. for lowest minimum monthly mean temperature) or the number of growing days(note the substantial disparity between PBIA and Whitted). However, at the end of the day, the vegetation and palms tell the story of climate. It does not lie. The ultra-tropical Storm grown in PB tell the story. No banana trees in PB ever burned in 2010, when PBIA was 32F. Same is true in Pahokee when we have the only Jan. 2010 sweet corn in the Continental US.

 

 

 

Do you know whether all of Pahokee has frozen at any point in the recorded past? (I mean is it possible that there are some parts of Pahokee that have never frozen--even during the 1890s?)

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Yunder Wækraus

Here's what I believe is an old kapok tree on the side of the highway alongside Lake Okeechobee in the Pahokee area. I am guessing that it is the largest one this far north, but I could be wrong. https://www.google.com/maps/@26.868528,-80.6276782,3a,75y,103.61h,88.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMeSRz7nEJ1rAjkDP6pirBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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edbrown_III

I remember what Adam said --- I was up in Jax trying to prepare the yard    it was supposed to get down in the teens --- I had to cover everything --- forecast was 17F or something --- last piece of business was to cover my Jubeaopsis and Triangle palms --- windy kept falling off the ladder and hands would freeze up and I would drp the poly--- it was about 2am then all of the sudden the clouds rolled in --- it was 26F by my thermometer ------ it would have dropped another 8 degreees or so ---- but it didnt --- so exhausted and beat ==== clouds stayed there but the cold front rolled down the ridge and dropped the west side of the river down to 18f or so   Gainesville got down to 16 or 17 and caused so much damage --- it rolled down to Western Palm Beach county --- wrecked Paul Crafts tender tropicals in Loxahatchee ----  I had a friend in Jupiter --- he had plnated 2 coconutes --- he only had one hot water container and put it by one --- that one survived --- he had two large alexander palms they also died.       it was 26F in Loxahatchee just like my house in Mandarine Jacksonville ---- this was 96 I think --- it repeated its self in 2001 when it got down to 22F at my place and 22F in the Bischoeks place in  Western Sarasota    ---- sometimes these Canadiaan airmasses take unusual flow patterns --- some of the islands like Pine Island get spared but further south you have other growth limiters like water --- high chlorides and cap rock right at the surface. 

 

 

Jubeopiss.jpg

Jubeopiss2.jpg

Jubeopiss3.jpg

Jubeopiss4.jpg

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Yunder Wækraus

And here's a coconut in the same area that's seen a few years. (It's not as tall as the one posted above, but it's certainly unlike any coconut up here in Brevard County) https://www.google.com/maps/@26.8726838,-80.6246607,3a,75y,135.58h,97.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEfdqvsPob7VR8-1SMefoCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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RedRabbit
4 hours ago, bubba said:

Mr. Red Rabbit,

No question that St.Pete has a great microclimate, especially the Whitted Airport. However, using PBIA numbers,which is a cold hole, I get the following comparison:

PBIA                                                   Whitted

Jan.2016-2010                                      Jan.2016-2010

40/66/481.                                           43/61/336

47/69/594                                             42/63/406

38/66/460                                              37/59/276

51/72/672                                              48/68/551

39/66/494                                              42/63/416

41/66/477                                              37/60/325

32/61/349                                              33/55/216

I have watched the difference between minimum temperatures between PBIA and the barrier island of PB for a number of years. In the Weather Title to the Forum, I did a rather extensive analysis and the bump between PBIA and PB is between 5-7 F for minimum temperatures in our short cool down. Accordingly, I submit to you that the Gulfstream, which rolls 85-90 degrees year around and is only 2 miles off our coast does indeed create a substantial microclimate in PB. 

Add 5-7F to the minimums listed at PBIA and you have a substantial microclimate. I have no  idea how these numbers effect the mean temperature used for Koeppen analysis of T(64.8F. for lowest minimum monthly mean temperature) or the number of growing days(note the substantial disparity between PBIA and Whitted). However, at the end of the day, the vegetation and palms tell the story of climate. It does not lie. The ultra-tropical Storm grown in PB tell the story. No banana trees in PB ever burned in 2010, when PBIA was 32F. Same is true in Pahokee when we have the only Jan. 2010 sweet corn in the Continental US.

That's all very interesting, I'd certainly like to think there is a special microclimate in Palm Beach making it exceptionally warm. Is there any evidence to suggest Palm Beach is warmer than the barrier islands further south? I'm pretty confident 11a extends into Broward County, but it may go further north. 

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Here's what I believe is an old kapok tree on the side of the highway alongside Lake Okeechobee in the Pahokee area. I am guessing that it is the largest one this far north, but I could be wrong. https://www.google.com/maps/@26.868528,-80.6276782,3a,75y,103.61h,88.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMeSRz7nEJ1rAjkDP6pirBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

They aren't that cold sensitive apparently. There's actually a decent sized kapok tree at the USF botanical gardens which is solidly 9b. 

1 hour ago, edbrown_III said:

I remember what Adam said --- I was up in Jax trying to prepare the yard    it was supposed to get down in the teens --- I had to cover everything --- forecast was 17F or something --- last piece of business was to cover my Jubeaopsis and Triangle palms --- windy kept falling off the ladder and hands would freeze up and I would drp the poly--- it was about 2am then all of the sudden the clouds rolled in --- it was 26F by my thermometer ------ it would have dropped another 8 degreees or so ---- but it didnt --- so exhausted and beat ==== clouds stayed there but the cold front rolled down the ridge and dropped the west side of the river down to 18f or so   Gainesville got down to 16 or 17 and caused so much damage --- it rolled down to Western Palm Beach county --- wrecked Paul Crafts tender tropicals in Loxahatchee ----  I had a friend in Jupiter --- he had plnated 2 coconutes --- he only had one hot water container and put it by one --- that one survived --- he had two large alexander palms they also died.       it was 26F in Loxahatchee just like my house in Mandarine Jacksonville ---- this was 96 I think --- it repeated its self in 2001 when it got down to 22F at my place and 22F in the Bischoeks place in  Western Sarasota    ---- sometimes these Canadiaan airmasses take unusual flow patterns --- some of the islands like Pine Island get spared but further south you have other growth limiters like water --- high chlorides and cap rock right at the surface. 

A couple thoughts on that... 

1.) I wonder if the clouds might have helped keep it warm. Back when I lived up north we knew it wouldn't snow if the clouds showed up too early because they acted as a blanket. Thus, no snow day the next morning. :( That could help explain why it didn't get colder.

2.) I've got a little theory about the way these cold fronts work (which admittedly could be wrong.) Tampa and Orlando have pretty similar climates overall, but I've noticed one can have a bad winter when the other doesn't. 2010 is a good example of that, TIA measured 25f that year compared to 27-28 in metro Orlando. I think the reason for this is that cold fronts don't hit the whole state at the same time. I think with cold fronts in theory there would be an optimal time for one to pass through to minimize the temperature. If that theoretical minimum temp time is at 5pm you're golden because the sun is out and it can't get that cold. If, however, the minimum time is 7am you're in big trouble. There should be a few hour difference between the time a cold front passes through Orlando and Tampa thus resulting in varying degrees of cold damage between the two cities... In the case with Jax, perhaps the cold front passed through at just the right time where it didn't get too cold. 

1 hour ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

And here's a coconut in the same area that's seen a few years. (It's not as tall as the one posted above, but it's certainly unlike any coconut up here in Brevard County) https://www.google.com/maps/@26.8726838,-80.6246607,3a,75y,135.58h,97.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEfdqvsPob7VR8-1SMefoCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

She's a beauty. I was looking at streetview earlier and noticed that one too. It certainly looks warm there!

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Yunder Wækraus
10 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

That's all very interesting, I'd certainly like to think there is a special microclimate in Palm Beach making it exceptionally warm. Is there any evidence to suggest Palm Beach is warmer than the barrier islands further south? I'm pretty confident 11a extends into Broward County, but it may go further north. 

They aren't that cold sensitive apparently. There's actually a decent sized kapok tree at the USF botanical gardens which is solidly 9b. 

A couple thoughts on that... 

1.) I wonder if the clouds might have helped keep it warm. Back when I lived up north we knew it wouldn't snow if the clouds showed up too early because they acted as a blanket. Thus, no snow day the next morning. :( That could help explain why it didn't get colder.

2.) I've got a little theory about the way these cold fronts work (which admittedly could be wrong.) Tampa and Orlando have pretty similar climates overall, but I've noticed one can have a bad winter when the other doesn't. 2010 is a good example of that, TIA measured 25f that year compared to 27-28 in metro Orlando. I think the reason for this is that cold fronts don't hit the whole state at the same time. I think with cold fronts in theory there would be an optimal time for one to pass through to minimize the temperature. If that theoretical minimum temp time is at 5pm you're golden because the sun is out and it can't get that cold. If, however, the minimum time is 7am you're in big trouble. There should be a few hour difference between the time a cold front passes through Orlando and Tampa thus resulting in varying degrees of cold damage between the two cities... In the case with Jax, perhaps the cold front passed through at just the right time where it didn't get too cold. 

She's a beauty. I was looking at streetview earlier and noticed that one too. It certainly looks warm there!

The kapok tree at USF looks utterly unlike the Pahokee one. Either they're different species, or the USF failed to put on trunk in the same way due to cold or soil http://www.usfsp.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/kapok-tree.jpg

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RedRabbit
1 minute ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

The kapok tree at USF looks utterly unlike the Pahokee one. Either they're different species, or the USF failed to put on trunk in the same way due to cold or soil http://www.usfsp.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/kapok-tree.jpg

That's actually a different one in downtown St. Pete. The one I'm thinking of is at the USF botanical gardens, but I don't have a picture of it unfortunately. 

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Yunder Wækraus
6 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

That's actually a different one in downtown St. Pete. The one I'm thinking of is at the USF botanical gardens, but I don't have a picture of it unfortunately. 

I found this one by Googling USF and kapok. I'll look again for the other one later.

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Walt

I spotted that same kapok tree myself along Rt. 98 (or Rt. 441), but that is not a true kapok, Ceiba pentandra. 

There's many species of so called kapok trees. There's a red kapok tree growing in the median strip across from the Jacaranda hotel on Main Street in downtown Avon Park, Florida. I first noticed this tree about 15 years ago when my wife and I were having lunch there. We walked out to the street and I saw a tree with buttresses on it and thought it had a tropical look. This was in the summer. But on another occasion we ate lunch at the hotel and it was in the winter. The red kapok tree was loaded with red flowers. It was then I did some research and found that this was a zone 10a tree, and that is what downtown Avon Park is, IMO, up on the Lake Wales Ridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.5958656,-81.5015843,3a,75y,186.34h,90.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smgyX8IQu9SfYFJYB3tvoKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

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Walt

edbrown_lll Re: ... it was 26F in Loxahatchee just like my house in Mandarine Jacksonville ---- this was 96 I think --- it repeated its self in 2001 when it got down to 22F at my place and 22F in the Bischoeks place in  Western Sarasota    ---- sometimes these Canadiaan airmasses take unusual flow patterns --- some of the islands like Pine Island get spared but further south you have other growth limiters like water --- high chlorides and cap rock right at the surface.

I remember the morning of January 5, 2001 all too well. It was my first major radiational freeze I experienced since moving to Highlands County in 1997. My young garden was all but wiped out (turned to mush). John Bishock and I had been conversing on Palmtalk  (or whatever it was called then) and by email, as I had been buying lots of palms from him. Both John and I recorded the same low temperature that morning, 22 degrees. I recall John drove down to Miami to see his mother right after the freeze, and he told me all the royal palms in Moorehaven were burned. John's two large Acrocomia aculeata palms were totally fried, but they came back strong.

I also discovered the value of land elevation from that radiational cooling event, as a day or two later I had to drive up the hill to town (Lake Placid). As I ascended the hill I began to notice less and less damage, and by the time I got to the top of the hill there was no damage. My bougainvilleas were frozen to the ground, yet the big ones up in town were in full bloom. The big traveler's palm (Ravenala madagascariensis) up in town (a zone 10 plant) was undamaged, but my white bird of paradise (a zone 9b plant) was totally fried. All the cold air drains east to my place.

The below coconut palm was the first one I ever discovered in Highlands County. It is growing about two blocks from the N.E. end of Lake Istokpoga, thus it's on the bad side of the lake (since the cold comes from the N.W.). This palm was fried, as you can see from the photo I took. But the palm survived and returned to normal. But in December of 2010 the palm was ravaged -- but it still came back. I need to get an update photo of it.

February2520014.jpg

The above coconut palm was fried from the January 5, 2001 radiational freeze.

December3020012.jpg

The above photo shows the same palm in the state of recovery 11 months later.

100_0655.jpg

The above photo shows the same coconut palm in 2008.

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Yunder Wækraus
6 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

This Kapok tree in Sarasota is pretty large:

Sarasota Kapok

That's clearly the same type as those in the Pahokee area. Do you know what species this is? Is it a "true" kapok tree? 

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Zeeth
5 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

That's clearly the same type as those in the Pahokee area. Do you know what species this is? Is it a "true" kapok tree? 

I'm not really sure, to be honest. I always was told that it was a Kapok tree, but the buttress roots aren't as large on the large one in Palm Beach, despite the height seeming about the same.

There's also one in Bradenton, but I'm not sure which type of "kapok" it is. I do know that both the one in Bradenton and the one in Sarasota have showy red flowers every year.

Kapok Bradenton

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Yunder Wækraus
4 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I'm not really sure, to be honest. I always was told that it was a Kapok tree, but the buttress roots aren't as large on the large one in Palm Beach, despite the height seeming about the same.

There's also one in Bradenton, but I'm not sure which type of "kapok" it is.

Kapok Bradenton

 Very interesting. The one in Palm Beach has much larger buttresses, but I'm not sure that it's any taller than those found in the Pahokee area. In shape, Palm Beach one seems more like a giant version of the one I found by searching for kapok trees around USF.

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Yunder Wækraus
8 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I'm not really sure, to be honest. I always was told that it was a Kapok tree, but the buttress roots aren't as large on the large one in Palm Beach, despite the height seeming about the same.

There's also one in Bradenton, but I'm not sure which type of "kapok" it is.

Kapok Bradenton

I think all of these must be Ceiba pentandra https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceiba_pentandra

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Loxahatchee Adam

The USF trees are Floss Silks (Ceiba speciosa group) and the "Kapok" at the St Pete art museum is a Bombax ceiba.  They are both significantly more cold hardy than a true kapok- Ceiba pentandra. I know both can take down to mid 20s and survive. I think at anything below 32, a Kapok (Ceiba pentandra will start to show damage)

Avon Park, Clearwater (Kapok Tree Inn/Sam Ash), St Pete Art Museum: Bombax Ceiba (Large red flowers)

USF Gardens: Ceiba speciosa (Floss silk). Pink/white/yellow flowers.  

Palm Beach Flagler Museum, Pahokee, Bryant, Clewiston: Ceiba pentandra (True Kapok). Clusters of many small white flowers.  This species being the most tropical. 

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Yunder Wækraus
34 minutes ago, Loxahatchee Adam said:

The USF trees are Floss Silks (Ceiba speciosa group) and the "Kapok" at the St Pete art museum is a Bombax ceiba.  They are both significantly more cold hardy than a true kapok- Ceiba pentandra. I know both can take down to mid 20s and survive. I think at anything below 32, a Kapok (Ceiba pentandra will start to show damage)

Avon Park, Clearwater (Kapok Tree Inn/Sam Ash), St Pete Art Museum: Bombax Ceiba (Large red flowers)

USF Gardens: Ceiba speciosa (Floss silk). Pink/white/yellow flowers.  

Palm Beach Flagler Museum, Pahokee, Bryant, Clewiston: Ceiba pentandra (True Kapok). Clusters of many small white flowers.  This species being the most tropical. 

Thanks! Wow, Pahokee is truly in good company for 10b over the long haul

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Eric in Orlando
11 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Here's what I believe is an old kapok tree on the side of the highway alongside Lake Okeechobee in the Pahokee area. I am guessing that it is the largest one this far north, but I could be wrong. https://www.google.com/maps/@26.868528,-80.6276782,3a,75y,103.61h,88.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMeSRz7nEJ1rAjkDP6pirBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

 

That is a nice Kapok!

 

 

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