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PalmTreeDude

"Buccaneer Palm" (Pseudophoenix saonae) Distribution In Florida

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PalmTreeDude

So I hear the Buccaneer palm (Pseudophoenix saonae) is native to South Florida, but where in South Florida? I found a map that supposivly shows where it is native to in Florida, does it look accurate? It is basically "Extreme" South Florida and the Florida Keys, does anyone else know a lot about this palm? 

 

BuccaneerPalmNativeRange.gif

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PalmTreeDude

Sorry about the bad quality of the image, click on it to see it with good quality.

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Zeeth

They've historically been found on Elliot key, Sands key and Long key. They were extirpated from Sands key and Long key by people digging up mature specimens from the wild to transplant into gardens, but seeds were grown from the remaining population on Elliot key by Fairchild and eventually planted back on Sands key and Long key.

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PalmTreeDude
7 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

They've historically been found on Elliot key, Sands key and Long key. They were extirpated from Sands key and Long key by people digging up mature specimens from the wild to transplant into gardens, but seeds were grown from the remaining population on Elliot key by Fairchild and eventually planted back on Sands key and Long key.

Thank you for the information. I hate when people dig up palms from the wild, specifically if it is a rare palm or if it is endangered. Just leave it be, if that is the case. I wonder if people do (or did) that with Florida Royals... Smh...

Edited by PalmTreeDude

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Zeeth
41 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Thank you for the information. I hate when people dig up palms from the wild, specifically if it is a rare palm or if it is endangered. Just leave it be, if that is the case. I wonder if people do (or did) that with Florida Royals... Smh...

They did it with florida royals quite often, but the population was much larger, so it wasn't as impactful. There's no reason to do it now because there are so many grown commercially that there'd be no point.

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Palmə häl′ik

Pseudophoenix sargentii may be a FL native, but the Pseudophoenix saonae is from the Caribbean island, saona.  (Isla saona)

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Mandrew968
8 hours ago, Palmə häl′ik said:

Pseudophoenix sargentii may be a FL native, but the Pseudophoenix saonae is from the Caribbean island, saona.  (Isla saona)

Good call--was about to say this. As for natives, I believe that the Psuedophoenix and royal palms were brought here via seed for pigs and such, way back when. I could be wrong, but I think they were introduced before anyone took records...

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SubTropicRay

The Orange Geiger Trees (Cordia sebestena) is also believed to be introduced. 

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PalmTreeDude

If you throw a lot of palm seed, from different species in South and Central Florida around the woods etc. A lot of new species would be introduced. You could basically say Coconut Palms (I know they are not said to be native.) are an introduced palm because I have seen the things growing out of the side of the woods while driving from time to time, and then seeing ones planted by man a few yards away.

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Bill H2DB
6 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

Good call--was about to say this. As for natives, I believe that the Psuedophoenix and royal palms were brought here via seed for pigs and such, way back when. I could be wrong, but I think they were introduced before anyone took records...

  It seems that Pigs /hogs were introduced by the Spanish , and were not here before then.    Per Fla. Wildlife Commission .

There's abundant food available for them here , so it seems doubtful , to me , that an additional source of food would have been necessary .

   Someday we'll get to the Root of the native/ introduced info .

 

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Bill H2DB
6 hours ago, SubTropicRay said:

The Orange Geiger Trees (Cordia sebestena) is also believed to be introduced. 

   Departing from palms a bit , but does anyone know of a Hybrid between the " Native " orange Geiger , and the

Native to Texas white Cordia Boisserii ?

The orange is too tender for my location , and the white does well here .     A hybrid might be just right .

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PalmTreeDude

This is kind of off topic from the Florida native palms topic, but I am surprised Sabal minor have not been "introduced" by animals from North Virginia Beach all the way up to at least Birdsnest on the Virginia peninsula, the whole thing is zone 8a and a few zone maps even include the extreme southern part of the peninsula as zone 8b. I know many people believe Sabal minor are native to at least one area of South Virginia Beach, in the woodland. Come on birds and other animals, bring more palms up north!

Edited by PalmTreeDude

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Mandrew968
20 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

  It seems that Pigs /hogs were introduced by the Spanish , and were not here before then.    Per Fla. Wildlife Commission .

There's abundant food available for them here , so it seems doubtful , to me , that an additional source of food would have been necessary .

   Someday we'll get to the Root of the native/ introduced info .

 

When the spanish came, they made it to the islands before Florida. With palm seed being not so tasty to humans, it would have been perfect for livestock. When the animals were introduced, so could the palms, when the animals released the 'fertilized' seed...

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Zeeth
1 hour ago, Mandrew968 said:

When the spanish came, they made it to the islands before Florida. With palm seed being not so tasty to humans, it would have been perfect for livestock. When the animals were introduced, so could the palms, when the animals released the 'fertilized' seed...

It seems more likely to me that the palms got here in the belly of one of the 250 species of migratory birds that travel between Cuba and Florida every year. 

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Bill H2DB
2 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

When the spanish came, they made it to the islands before Florida. With palm seed being not so tasty to humans, it would have been perfect for livestock. When the animals were introduced, so could the palms, when the animals released the 'fertilized' seed...

   here is some info:

http://wildpiginfo.msstate.edu/history-wild-pigs.html

http://www.austinchronicle.com/food/2009-04-10/764573/

.( paragraph 4 in the one above is quite interesting , as it ties Pigs and the word Buccaneer in together quite nicely

thus taking this entire discussion to an unexpected closed circle . )

http://articles.extension.org/pages/63667/history-of-feral-hogs-in-the-united-states

 

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PalmTreeDude
59 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

It seems more likely to me that the palms got here in the belly of one of the 250 species of migratory birds that travel between Cuba and Florida every year. 

That is what I was thinking, and pigs! Animals can completely change a landscape, if given enough time. I think that is what happened. 

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Yunder Wækraus
12 hours ago, Zeeth said:

It seems more likely to me that the palms got here in the belly of one of the 250 species of migratory birds that travel between Cuba and Florida every year. 

Yep. 

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Mandrew968

Not too many birds i know that could down that big trilobed seed of sargentii... Seems more likely a few pigs squirted out a bunch-bet they have more digestive power than a bird (would come in handy with Pseudophoenix seed). This is all conjecture-lets enjoy it, not be contentious. I am just warning myself :D

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Zeeth

The only way to say for sure is to take DNA samples from the different populations throughout the Caribbean and see if the differences are more easily explained by trade or natural dispersion (hurricanes seem to be the more likely method with P. sargentii). This was done for coconuts on the Pacific coast of America, with interesting conclusions (the Panama tall is closer genetically to the coconuts found in the Philippines than those found in the south Pacific, suggesting Spanish introduction. Other varieties appear to be introduced by the Polynesians, however). Otherwise, as you said, it's just conjecture. I think that natural introduction would be more parsimonious though. 

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Yunder Wækraus
6 hours ago, Zeeth said:

The only way to say for sure is to take DNA samples from the different populations throughout the Caribbean and see if the differences are more easily explained by trade or natural dispersion (hurricanes seem to be the more likely method with P. sargentii). This was done for coconuts on the Pacific coast of America, with interesting conclusions (the Panama tall is closer genetically to the coconuts found in the Philippines than those found in the south Pacific, suggesting Spanish introduction. Other varieties appear to be introduced by the Polynesians, however). Otherwise, as you said, it's just conjecture. I think that natural introduction would be more parsimonious though. 

Pig, man, bird--they're all natural! :)

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