Palm Trees in South Crete, Greece

[southathens]

Hello again.I am not sure how many of our members are familiar with Crete but I have seen some very impressive palms over there.The Vai forest is an excellent example of naturally grown palms.Since you guys are more experienced with the specifics around palms what kind of rare plants/palms could survive in the climate of Palaiochora?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiochora#Climate

''The town has an exceptionally mild Mediterranean climate with mild winters and hot summers. According to the data provided by the National Observatory of Athens for the period of 2006-2016 (Oct 2006 - Feb 2016) the average annual temperature in Palaiochora is 20.7 °C and is Greece's warmest area annually for that period from the network of the N.O.A meteorological stations. The town has recorded an all-time maximum of 45.0 °C in June 2007 and an all time minimum of 1.2 °C in February 2008, additionally on 27.06.2007 the town registered a stunning 35.8 °C minimum''

I reckon South Crete should be 11b hardiness and should also be the warmest area of geographical Europe in terms of mean annual temperatures (around 21°C)

Edited May 30, 2016 by Manos33

[Neil C]

Winter maximums have a strong bearing on what will survive long term.

Regards Neil

[Phoenikakias]

Sougia has even a better climate, me think, but palms need a lot of water so there is also the question of whether ther is enough water for a palm grove there. As a rule of thumb wherever there are commercial banana plantations in Crete, those places have the suitable climate, soil and water for many palms.

[southathens]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Sougia has even a better climate, me think, but palms need a lot of water so there is also the question of whether ther is enough water for a palm grove there. As a rule of thumb wherever there are commercial banana plantations in Crete, those places have the suitable climate, soil and water for many palms.

I think SW Crete  (and W Crete in general) is much rainier than the rest of the island that's why I choose Palaiohora.Lentas  for example which has even higher temps than Palaiohora is drier so I thought the SW is a better candidate for tropical plants

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

I think SW Crete  (and W Crete in general) is much rainier than the rest of the island that's why I choose Palaiohora.Lentas  for example which has even higher temps than Palaiohora is drier so I thought the SW is a better candidate for tropical plants

In summer, when active growth is at peak, everywhere in Crete is bone dry. So, the key is plety of water from the nearby mountains with the glaciers. White Mountains are far away from Palaeochora or Sougia, in that sense Sfakia are more suitable. On the other hand spring water in the Banana Villages is plenty from the Asterousia Sierra.

[southathens]

8 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

In summer, when active growth is at peak, everywhere in Crete is bone dry. So, the key is plety of water from the nearby mountains with the glaciers. White Mountains are far away from Palaeochora or Sougia, in that sense Sfakia are more suitable. On the other hand spring water in the Banana Villages is plenty from the Asterousia Sierra.

I doubt Sfakia is more suitable than Palaiohora. The scenery over there is totally arid and I bet that it's much drier year round compared to Palaiohora.As a rule of thumb the further W you are in Crete the rainier it gets.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Manos33

[Phoenikakias]

It's stony but spring water is at places more than abundant. It pops up even from the sea bed and a few cm's below surface at beach.

[southathens]

5 hours ago, Neil C said:

Winter maximums have a strong bearing on what will survive long term.

Regards Neil

The winter highs in Greece are generally  not that pronounced due to the influences from the Balkans and the Black Sea.The mean maxes in South Crete are around 16C or 17C locally and I guess that's the best you can do in Greece during January and February.On the other hand the mean minimums in Southern Greece are pretty decent during the winter.South Crete, Karpathos,Kasos,Kastelorizo and even areas in SE Rhodes are probably the European ''champions'' in terms of winter mean minimums.These shouldn't be lower than 10C or 11C in Jan and Feb

So what kind of tropical plants/palms can survive long term with maxes around 16C or 17C?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Manos33

[Phoenikakias]

"European Champions"?!?!?! LMAO! @Monòver we have a serious challenge here!

[southathens]

10 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

"European Champions"?!?!?! LMAO! @Monòver we have a serious challenge here!

Yes,they are indeed.South Crete is pretty much unbeatable  in mean annual temperatures  in geographical Europe.Lindos in Rhodes is also a good contender.Neither Iberia nor Italy can seriously compare with South Crete and areas of the Dodecanese.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Manos33

[Stelios]

Mano, welcome to PT. When you have the chance post some photos of palms or tropical plants that grow in Crete. This way we can see what can grow more easy in the long term and what good microclimates there are in Crete.

[Phoenikakias]

I strongly recommend you not doing so, big surprise is awaiting...

[Monòver]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

"European Champions"?!?!?! LMAO! @Monòver we have a serious challenge here!

This is the european champions palm league!!!

Always the same, if best climate is in Spain, or Malta, Or Greece, or....

Show us palm pictures, we love enjoy with nice palms

 

[Cluster]

Do not trust blindly in every weather stations you see even the NOAA/HNMS. The best thing you could do is measure your own garden and try out different palms while also getting to know your own microclimate. Alex (empireo22) gave you a nice list for southern Athens, you could try to add something more challenging in Crete. Euterpe edulis is a nice and elegant palm, king palms, royals, bismarckia nobilis, kentias or a beccariophoenix (coconut alike) are some of the ideas:)

Edited May 30, 2016 by Cluster

[southathens]

Well I clueless when it comes to palms.However I reckon I am relatively knowledgable in meteorology and climatology , especially the European one so the ''European champion'' refers to the mildest climate in Europe not the best palm germinations.This is why I opened this thread to hear from you guys what tropical plants would be possible in a mild climate such as the one in south crete

[gyuseppe]

4 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Do not trust blindly in every weather stations you see. The best thing you could do is measure your own garden and try out different palms 

YES !wise counsel

[gyuseppe]

I would add that for the success of certain species of palms, not we must only see temperatures, but there are also other things, as the difference in temperature between day and night, moisture in the air, ........... .

[southathens]

1 minute ago, gyuseppe said:

I would add that for the success of certain species of palms, not we must only see temperatures, but there are also other things, as the difference in temperature between day and night, moisture in the air, ........... .

Ok ,but what is the most determining climate factor that allows  long term growth of palms ?Neil mentioned something about winter maxes.Is there any consensus as to which climate factors play in decisively for successful long term growth ?

[Cluster]

It is hard to say each palm reacts differently some need a lot of mean soil temperatures but can withstand cold spells very easily others are the opposite. Try to see what they grow in Malaga for example to get an idea in my opinion.

[southathens]

3 minutes ago, Cluster said:

It is hard to say each palm reacts differently some need a lot of mean soil temperatures but can withstand cold spells very easily others are the opposite. Try to see what they grow in Malaga for example to get an idea in my opinion.

The problem with Malaga is that the summers over there are way cooler than those in South Crete.Wouldn't that have an impact?

[Cluster]

Yap a bit cooler during the summer, it can have an impact in a bad way if it is too hot there, some palms won't tolerate too much heat, thinking about it kentias might not enjoy it there during the summer (maybe under shade would be enough) but will enjoy your winter. 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Cluster said:

It is hard to say each palm reacts differently some need a lot of mean soil temperatures but can withstand cold spells very easily others are the opposite. Try to see what they grow in Malaga for example to get an idea in my opinion.

No, far to optimist approach!

[Alicante]

On 30/5/2016 13:35:47, Manos33 said:

Hello again.I am not sure how many of our members are familiar with Crete but I have seen some very impressive palms over there.The Vai forest is an excellent example of naturally grown palms.Since you guys are more experienced with the specifics around palms what kind of rare plants/palms could survive in the climate of Palaiochora?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiochora#Climate

''The town has an exceptionally mild Mediterranean climate with mild winters and hot summers. According to the data provided by the National Observatory of Athens for the period of 2006-2016 (Oct 2006 - Feb 2016) the average annual temperature in Palaiochora is 20.7 °C and is Greece's warmest area annually for that period from the network of the N.O.A meteorological stations. The town has recorded an all-time maximum of 45.0 °C in June 2007 and an all time minimum of 1.2 °C in February 2008, additionally on 27.06.2007 the town registered a stunning 35.8 °C minimum''

I reckon South Crete should be 11b hardiness and should also be the warmest area of geographical Europe in terms of mean annual temperatures (around 21°C)

Not true, Ceuta's winters are warmer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta#Climate

Anyways don't trust very much recent averages, the city of Murcia, Spain for example, is located at 37º 59' - 38º 00'N (Palaiochora is at 35º 15'N) and in the period 2004-2015 shows an average of 20.64ºC (in 2014 the annual average was 21.4ºC and in 2015 21.2ºC), but the summer inflates this average; it freezes every year there (light freezes, but freezes at all) and the average maximums on January are about 19ºC, but the minimums are about 5ºC. Reggio di Calabria has also a very warm climate and the January minimums are about 8-9ºC.

This is not any climate battle. "European Champions" you are talking about the Football Champions League of European countries ¿? 

This is not a competition buddy. Kind regards!

[southathens]

On 6/18/2016, 6:29:35, pRoeZa* said:

Not true, Ceuta's winters are warmer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta#Climate

Anyways don't trust very much recent averages, the city of Murcia, Spain for example, is located at 37º 59' - 38º 00'N (Palaiochora is at 35º 15'N) and in the period 2004-2015 shows an average of 20.64ºC (in 2014 the annual average was 21.4ºC and in 2015 21.2ºC), but the summer inflates this average; it freezes every year there (light freezes, but freezes at all) and the average maximums on January are about 19ºC, but the minimums are about 5ºC. Reggio di Calabria has also a very warm climate and the January minimums are about 8-9ºC.

This is not any climate battle. "European Champions" you are talking about the Football Champions League of European countries ¿? 

This is not a competition buddy. Kind regards!

 

Ceuta is in Africa my friend.I am talking about geographical Europe and mean annual temperatures.Year round South Crete is way stronger.The mean annual temp in Palaiohora is 20.7C versus 18.8C in Ceuta

Edited June 28, 2016 by Manos33

[southathens]

On 6/18/2016, 6:29:35, pRoeZa* said:

 

Anyways don't trust very much recent averages, the city of Murcia, Spain for example, is located at 37º 59' - 38º 00'N (Palaiochora is at 35º 15'N) and in the period 2004-2015 shows an average of 20.64ºC (in 2014 the annual average was 21.4ºC and in 2015 21.2ºC),

 

Also here are the data from the official AEMET station of Murcia

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2015&mes=12

 

The mean annuals  are as follows: 

 2015   20.03C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2015&mes=12

2014   20.12C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2014&mes=12

2013  19.21C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2013&mes=12

2012  19.28C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2012&mes=12

2011  19.56C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2011&mes=12

2010  18.40C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2010&mes=12

2009  19.38C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2009&mes=12

2008  18.93C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2008&mes=12

2007  18.78C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2007&mes=12

2006  19.41C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2006&mes=12

2005  16.99C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2005&mes=12

2004  18.84C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2004&mes=12

 

Thus the mean annual temperature for the period 2004-2015 is 19.08C

 

Where did you find the 20.64C figure?

[SouthSeaNate]

Climate averages, annual means, hardines zones etc.. are taken from a 30 year period of data.The current data period used by the WMO is 1981-2010.

*backs out slowly*

[Alicante]

9 hours ago, Manos33 said:

 

Also here are the data from the official AEMET station of Murcia

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2015&mes=12

 

The mean annuals  are as follows: 

 2015   20.03C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2015&mes=12

2014   20.12C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2014&mes=12

2013  19.21C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2013&mes=12

2012  19.28C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2012&mes=12

2011  19.56C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2011&mes=12

2010  18.40C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2010&mes=12

2009  19.38C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2009&mes=12

2008  18.93C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2008&mes=12

2007  18.78C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2007&mes=12

2006  19.41C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2006&mes=12

2005  16.99C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2005&mes=12

2004  18.84C

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08430&ord=DIR&year=2004&mes=12

 

Thus the mean annual temperature for the period 2004-2015 is 19.08C

 

Where did you find the 20.64C figure?

The source is Tutiempo.net: http://www.tutiempo.net/clima/Murcia_Alcantarilla/84290.htm

 

2004

20.4

2006

21.0

2007

20.4

2008

20.5

2009

21.1

2010

19.8

2011

20.5

2012

20.4

2013

20.3

2014

21.4

2015

21.2

 

The mean average is 20.64ºC if you calculate all the averages in all 11 years. 2005 year doesn't appear, I don't know why.

Oh yes Ceuta is in Africa but it's at the same latitude as Palaiochora. Anyways, the average in January in Gibraltar is about the same as in Palaiochora, and February is warmer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar#Climate and Gibraltar is Europe, at 36ºN latitude. I didn't say that Ceuta is warmer, I did say that is warmer on the winters... Not warmer all year round, as Ceuta is very influenced by the oceanic winds, while Palaiochora is very close to the end of the Mediterranean, which is a very warm zone.

On 30/5/2016 13:35:47, Manos33 said:

The town has recorded an all-time maximum of 45.0 °C in June 2007 and an all time minimum of 1.2 °C in February 2008, additionally on 27.06.2007 the town registered a stunning 35.8 °C minimum''

I reckon South Crete should be 11b hardiness and should also be the warmest area of geographical Europe in terms of mean annual temperatures (around 21°C)

 

Also it's a short average, with less than 10 years (Oct 2006 - Feb 2016 as you are saying).

Not true, it's not 11b hardiness zone; not even Palaiochora, and you are talking about all Crete...  If in 2008 it arrived to 1.2ºC... it can be maximum 11a zone, but the sources and maps say that Crete is on 10b zone: http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-greece-plant-hardiness-zone-map-celsius.php , Greece has a place which is inside the 11a Hardiness Zone, which is only near Oia island. Maybe Lampedusa, and Gibraltar-Ceuta sea area are 11b zones, but I kinda doubt it. Anyways, Crete is not 11b zone in any way: in fact even 11a zones are a very few in Europe: Points on southernmost Spain, points on southern Sicily, Lampedusa, Malta, Oia island and southern Cyprus. 

This is not any competition. I don't know why you act like if this was a competition or something.

Kind regards, have a good day 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by pRoeZa*

[southathens]

15 hours ago, pRoeZa* said:

The source is Tutiempo.net: http://www.tutiempo.net/clima/Murcia_Alcantarilla/84290.htm

 

Well Tutiempo is a crappy source for serious meteo lovers like myself.The Alcantarilla means are below and these are even lower that Murcia proper since Alcantarilla has much lower minimums because it's  a more inland location.

 

Murcia Alcantarilla

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08429&ord=DIR&year=2015&mes=12

 

From a quick look Alcantarilla for the period 2004-2015 has an even lower mean annual temperature than Murcia proper.It should be below 19C.

Also I am not doing any contest my friend I just correct your sources so you would be able to find more reliable meteorological data.What I am saying though is that South Crete is the warmest area in the whole geographical Europe by far.This is well known fact among European meteo lovers and the relevant weather forums.Sure 10 years of data are not a lot but they are a good indication.Also I am not familiar with the hardiness zones and I am not debating this.I am merely stating that  the warmest climate in Europe year round is to be found in Greece.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Manos33

[southathens]

16 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Climate averages, annual means, hardines zones etc.. are taken from a 30 year period of data.The current data period used by the WMO is 1981-2010.

*backs out slowly*

Yes indeed we need 30 years for the WMO means. Greece however hasnt homogenised its time-series so at best you can find 30-40 or even 50 years of data lumped up and in different periods!

However we get a good indication even with 10 years of data worth.Now if we were to compare the same 10 year period between European stations you will not find a single area that can beat the mean annual temperatures of S.Crete . Well maybe Lindos in Rhodes can compare with S.Crete ,we still need to wait a few more years before giving the title to Rhodes.Either way it will be a location in Greece.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Manos33

[Cluster]

This has gone totally off topic, but anyway many Greek meteo stations (not all of course) are known to not be "reliable/fair comparison" among meteo enthusiasts, Lindos for example on top of a rooftop.... Even the WMO standards fall short compared to some good weather stations that really try to minimize man influence (for example grass below, no trees and big buildings nearby the station, outside the village/city area etc) in a certain zone or in other words to minimize the heat island effect among others. So often it is an apples to orange comparison, one can go to wunderground and sometimes see stations that are more than 2 degrees higher than some pro meteo station located in a place that minimizes man influence not far away from each other, just my 2 cents.  

When talking about palms, however, what really matters is the specific climate where they are being planted (regardless if it is in the center of a city or an isolated place etc..) and this is why my advise as before, to measure your own place and get a better idea what will work there:). 

No doubt south crete is very warm regardless of "how much precisely", I look forward to seeing what can grow there as the more exotic palms do not seem to be explored in that region.

PS: I am not sure it is a zone 11, even in those rooftop stations, in many recent years you keep seeing temperatures below 4c (sometimes 1-2) being achieved in the coldest day/s of the year. Maybe 10b, not sure.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Cluster

[DoomsDave]

On 5/30/2016, 11:19:29, Phoenikakias said:

"European Champions"?!?!?! LMAO! @Monòver we have a serious challenge here!

Are the Canary Islands in Europe? Or Africa?

[Cluster]

They belong to the African Plate, regardless they are situated less than 2 hours from south Spain, really fast to move in and out:) A very nice climate.

 

[Alicante]

10 hours ago, Manos33 said:

 

Well Tutiempo is a crappy source for serious meteo lovers like myself.The Alcantarilla means are below and these are even lower that Murcia proper since Alcantarilla has much lower minimums because it's  a more inland location.

 

Murcia Alcantarilla

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?months=12&lang=en&mode=0&ind=08429&ord=DIR&year=2015&mes=12

 

From a quick look Alcantarilla for the period 2004-2015 has an even lower mean annual temperature than Murcia proper.It should be below 19C.

Also I am not doing any contest my friend I just correct your sources so you would be able to find more reliable meteorological data.What I am saying though is that South Crete is the warmest area in the whole geographical Europe by far.This is well known fact among European meteo lovers and the relevant weather forums.Sure 10 years of data are not a lot but they are a good indication.Also I am not familiar with the hardiness zones and I am not debating this.I am merely stating that  the warmest climate in Europe year round is to be found in Greece.

"Tutiempo is a crappy source for serious meteo lovers like myself" oh yes, with that mood you have to be very expert. 

You can't state which source is crappy or not with that attitude buddy, i'm sorry. 

If you had come here as an expert, presenting yourself; and if you were starting talking good and argumenting maybe yes, we could trust your word and say wow, this guy is a really expert. But with the mood as you started in your 30 posts... you have the typical "only what I say is true" attitude. "Crete is the warmest area in the whole geographical Europe by far." Well that's your opinion, but it's not true at all. Among the warmest? Yes, but not the warmest. The people here is putting you sources and saying that you're doing some mistakes and all that you do is deny the sources and say that "those are shitty stations, I can show places with 50ºC on January". I'm still waiting for the meteo stations which show 50ºC on January. A fire heated mercury thermometer is not valid!

"This is well known fact among European meteo lovers and the relevant weather forums" Another time your opinion but that's not true at all. You remind me of a famous user of citydata, which was claiming that Los Angeles is one of the warmest places in the US, more than Orlando, Florida!

I don't want to keep on with this discussion. If you want argue with someone else but not with me please. If that's your opinion.. ok! Have a good day 

Edited June 29, 2016 by pRoeZa*

[palmsOrl]

Geographically (and as far as climate), I would consider the Canary Islands to be part of North Africa.  I find it interesting that Southern Crete is significantly warmer than Northern Crete, since the latitude difference is so small.  I bet royal palms irrigated every day of the year would do well in nearly sea level areas of Crete.  I think Phoenix and Washingtonia would do extremely well with minimal care.  The winter highs seem a little low for Cocos, but I'm sure one could pull it off in a concrete filled microclimate on the south shore.  Bermuda has tons of non-fruiting Cocos and their average winter high is in the upper 60s.  Then again, the average low in the coldest month in Bermuda is 60F. 

[southathens]

20 hours ago, Cluster said:

This has gone totally off topic, but anyway many Greek meteo stations (not all of course) are known to not be "reliable/fair comparison" among meteo enthusiasts, Lindos for example on top of a rooftop.... Even the WMO standards fall short compared to some good weather stations that really try to minimize man influence (for example grass below, no trees and big buildings nearby the station, outside the village/city area etc) in a certain zone or in other words to minimize the heat island effect among others. So often it is an apples to orange comparison, one can go to wunderground and sometimes see stations that are more than 2 degrees higher than some pro meteo station located in a place that minimizes man influence not far away from each other, just my 2 cents.  

When talking about palms, however, what really matters is the specific climate where they are being planted (regardless if it is in the center of a city or an isolated place etc..) and this is why my advise as before, to measure your own place and get a better idea what will work there:). 

No doubt south crete is very warm regardless of "how much precisely", I look forward to seeing what can grow there as the more exotic palms do not seem to be explored in that region.

PS: I am not sure it is a zone 11, even in those rooftop stations, in many recent years you keep seeing temperatures below 4c (sometimes 1-2) being achieved in the coldest day/s of the year. Maybe 10b, not sure.

Well that's the problem when you have  a  metoffice with limited resources (HNMS) .You are right about Lindos and yes these are not the ideal conditions however the NOA stations in Greece are all fan aspirated Davis ones which are fairly accurate despite some not being on the grass.Obviously there is no comparison between these ,that the most advance research facility in the Balkans trusts (Athens Observary) , and the real crappy ones we see in wunderground that are not even fan aspirated. Bear in mind also that Lindos is influenced by the local foehn winds and it's proximity to Turkey allows for such high temps.

Now regarding S.Crete this is due to the very complex orography of the island.Especially the foehn winds in areas of S.Crete make it a very interesting area climatologically.If we exclude the 2008 freak snow event that hit the whole of Greece very hard we would be safe to say that it could take decades  for us to see a negative temp in a S.Crete coast.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Manos33

[southathens]

12 hours ago, pRoeZa* said:

"Tutiempo is a crappy source for serious meteo lovers like myself" oh yes, with that mood you have to be very expert. 

You can't state which source is crappy or not with that attitude buddy, i'm sorry. 

 

Trust me mate, tutiempo is full of crap.I have just demonstrated to you that it's basically a useless source and most  meteo enthusiasts who are serious about their data just ignore it.Use only the official AEMET site, ogimet and the national metoffices of each country to be on the safe side.

Regarding S.Crete we have more examples of how warm it is year round.For example a more recent station in Lentas is even warmer than Palaiohora.It is safe to assume that in the long run coastal areas of Southern Crete would locally hit around 21C as a mean annual temperature.That is considerably higher than any other area in geographical Europe can achieve.

Btw I am not an expert.I am just somewhat experienced when handling meteorological data.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Manos33

[southathens]

9 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Geographically (and as far as climate), I would consider the Canary Islands to be part of North Africa.  I find it interesting that Southern Crete is significantly warmer than Northern Crete, since the latitude difference is so small.  I bet royal palms irrigated every day of the year would do well in nearly sea level areas of Crete.  I think Phoenix and Washingtonia would do extremely well with minimal care.  The winter highs seem a little low for Cocos, but I'm sure one could pull it off in a concrete filled microclimate on the south shore.  Bermuda has tons of non-fruiting Cocos and their average winter high is in the upper 60s.  Then again, the average low in the coldest month in Bermuda is 60F. 

I also think Cocos could survive in protected areas around the Messara coasts,Ierapetra and Palaiohora.Trouble is that these areas are full of greenhouses heavily influenced by EU funds aiming at specific vegetable production, so I doubt that someone who does not have a genuine love for tropical plants would care enough to grow them.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Manos33

[Cluster]

Lindos was like 2-1.5 degrees warmer than all other stations nearby (I recall Rhodes a little bit to the north and closer to Turkey and another one south of Lindos, was a long time ago) around and knowing its weather station placement/conditions does not convince. Lentas and other similar stations like Palaiohora are also placed in similar conditions. Take maybe 0.3- 0.5 degrees from Lentas or Palaiohora and it is probably the fair zone climate, which would still make south crete very warm indeed. There are actually good weather stations in wunderground, some of them are terrible, but davis stations in wunderground can inflate results as much as those 2 degrees if placed in the right place:) (which means such a place is probably good for more tropical palms but does not define a zone).

As for the coconut you can try it, but I am afraid it is too cold there, give it some protection in the coldest days and it might take off, I am just afraid a cooler winter will do it there, warmer places than south crete (in the winter) have had issues keeping them. It is not a palm you will see in public gardens there, but protected who knows you might be able to keep it for some years:). Last year for example during the coldest month Lentas and Palaiohora had a mean min of 10 c (50 f) and mean max of 15 c (59 f), that is very cool for a coconut, I know places in Portugal near Lisbon to the south that are probably warmer than that and while it would be cool to try a coconut there (and I would try it for fun if I lived there!) I am not sure it would do well even if protected in those 2/3 coldest months. 

PS: The place I am talking is Portinho da Arrabida, while there is no weather station there it still has some leftovers of the ancient laurisilva forest that was present in mediterranean Europe before the last ice age which killed it, it is a very protected Zone. The laurisilva forest survived in Azores, Canaries, Madeira and Cabo Verde. Coconuts are a tropical palm and while there are some even more tropical it is a demanding palm.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Cluster

[Alicante]

5 hours ago, Manos33 said:

I also think Cocos could survive in protected areas around the Messara coasts,Ierapetra and Palaiohora.Trouble is that these areas are full of greenhouses heavily influenced by EU funds aiming at specific vegetable production, so I doubt that someone who does not have a genuine love for tropical plants would care enough to grow them.

Cocos would never survive an entire winter in any part of Crete... unless inside of a greenhouse,

http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/paleochora/ this is the climate station of Paleochora. It's a Davis Pro Vantage 2 and probably it's on a rooftop or something, which appears to be warmer. But I'll take this data as reference.

http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/paleochora/NOAAYR.TXT In January 2016 the maximum average was 16.6ºC, February 18.7ºC and March 18.9ºC so it would died fastly and the hot only arrives in April so it's a weak climate for coconuts.

In 2015 the data was: http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/paleochora/NOAAPRYR.TXT 4 months in the year had maximum averages under 20ºC, April had a maximum average of only 20.5ºC and January and February had maximum averages of only 15.6ºC and 14.7ºC, counting the cold precipitation any coconut without protection would died in the beggining of the month... Maybe the only spot when coconuts can grow in the Mediterranean could in northern Egypt, in microclimate hot spots near Alexandria... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#Climate which has quite bigger winter maximum temperatures. But I doubt it.

My friend, coconuts can't grow in any part of the continental Europe or the european mediterranean isles. Even in the southernmost spots of Cyprus like Limassol which is probably the warmest climate zone in the European continent/Mediterranean Isles. Limassol had an average of 20.5ºC according to the official weather station, while Paleochora had 20.7ºC in 9 years which is a very short term of time. As I've shown you Murcia also has an average of 20.6ºC in the last 11 years but that's a very short term of time... And the averages are very influenced becase the summers are very hot.

The low temperatures are not the problem, the problem are the low maximums as the cocos need the magic least 20ºC average maximum temperature in the coldest month; they grow on Durban with 23/9 averages or in Easter Island with 20/15 averages. Many days have 14-15ºC maximums with rain so that would fastly kill a coconut , after that they need fastly sun and temperatures of at least 20-21ºC, that's something which can happen in places like Salton City, Ca where it exists the northernmost coconut in the world (after a 16ºC raining day in Salton City is normal to see the next day sun and 28ºC), something impossible in Europe unless very few exceptions due to hot air masses, In California is something normal to have +25ºC temps in January even for 10 days or more...

Anyways I would like a lot to see photos of palm trees in Crete. This photo is great! Have you find Roystoneas, Archontophoenixes, etc in Crete? 

kind regards!

Edited June 30, 2016 by pRoeZa*

[southathens]

2 hours ago, Cluster said:

Lindos was like 2-1.5 degrees warmer than all other stations nearby (I recall Rhodes a little bit to the north and closer to Turkey and another one south of Lindos, was a long time ago) around and knowing its weather station placement/conditions does not convince. Lentas and other similar stations like Palaiohora are also placed in similar conditions. Take maybe 0.3- 0.5 degrees from Lentas or Palaiohora and it is probably the fair zone climate, which would still make south crete very warm indeed. There are actually good weather stations in wunderground, some of them are terrible, but davis stations in wunderground can inflate results as much as those 2 degrees if placed in the right place:) (which means such a place is probably good for more tropical palms but does not define a zone).

As for the coconut you can try it, but I am afraid it is too cold there, give it some protection in the coldest days and it might take off, I am just afraid a cooler winter will do it there, warmer places than south crete (in the winter) have had issues keeping them. It is not a palm you will see in public gardens there, but protected who knows you might be able to keep it for some years:). Last year for example during the coldest month Lentas and Palaiohora had a mean min of 10 c (50 f) and mean max of 15 c (59 f), that is very cool for a coconut, I know places in Portugal near Lisbon to the south that are probably warmer than that and while it would be cool to try a coconut there (and I would try it for fun if I lived there!) I am not sure it would do well even if protected in those 2/3 coldest months. 

PS: The place I am talking is Portinho da Arrabida, while there is no weather station there it still has some leftovers of the ancient laurisilva forest that was present in mediterranean Europe before the last ice age which killed it, it is a very protected Zone. The laurisilva forest survived in Azores, Canaries, Madeira and Cabo Verde. Coconuts are a tropical palm and while there are some even more tropical it is a demanding palm.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I am not sure about Cocos in Lindos,mind you that Lindos has a strong foehn effect due to orography so this would help explain the elevated temps .I am also not persuaded about Lindos to be honest that's why I said let's give it a few years.Palaiohora and Lentas though seem much more credible options.In fact there must be other areas in S.Crete with even warmer temps.The complexity of Crete climatologically is simply amazing.The N of the Island can also have some amazing temps due to foehn winds