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Palms in Japanese garden at the Panama-Pacific International Exposition 1915


Janet B

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Can anyone tell me what palms are in this picture taken in 1915 in SF at the world's fair?

http://palmsonthemove.blogspot.com/2016/04/palms-in-japan-garden.html

Also I would like to introduce some small palms appropriate to a Japanese garden in Fremont California in the SF Bay Area.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks!

Janet (my first post, so I hope this is in the right section)

 

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Those look like cycads to me.

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Lots of palm people grow cycads. :) My guess is they are very old, trimmed up Cycas revoluta, quite common.

And welcome to PalmTalk! :) How did you find us?  Are you an avid gardener?

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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True, not usual to see palms in Japanese gardens, but IF you do, it's going to be Trachycarpus or one of the Rhapis.

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Good to know. I couldn't remember seeing any in Japanese gardens except in this old picture. (Actually in Fremont we have two Chilean wine palms (planted in 1870's) in our Japanese garden, but you hardly see them, they are so large.)

I found palmtalk while doing research on palm trees at the Panama-Pacific International Exposition. Our local nursery, established in 1884, supplied over 200 mature Canary Island date palms and California fan palms.

Palmtalk came up in one of my searches for Luther Burbank and palms. Nelson Kirk (our local tree expert) had posted the post that I landed on. 

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As I was thinking about palms in Japanese gardens, I remember there were some palms and cycads in the San Jose Japanese garden. Found them in my photos. Trachycarpus? And Cycas revoluta?

IMG_5410.jpg

IMG_5408.jpg

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Yes, you are correct: Trachycarpus fortunei (somtimes also T. wagnerianus) and Cycas revoluta. Only the Cycas is native to Japan; Trachycarpus (and Rhapis) were introduced from China. But in »typical« Japanese gardens you won’t find palms.

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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I did a little more research on Japanese palms and came across this article "The Native Palms of the Ryukyu Islands of Japan": http://www.trebrown.com/articles/blog/the-native-palms-of-the-ryukyu-islands-of-japan/

The article says that these palms are endemic to Japan: Clinostigma savoryanum Livistona boninensis, Arenga ryukyuensis, and Satakentia liukiuensis.

The article also list palms (previously suggested) that have been grown there for centuries: Rhapis excelsa, Rhapis humilis, Blume, Trachycarpus fortunei var. wagnerianus 

These are listed (not endemic): Livistona chinensis var. subglobosa, Nypa fruticans.

I know not everything is correct on the internet and so I'm checking here on Palmtalk.

I'm not sure any of these would have turned up in gardens, except for the previously suggested Rhapis and Tracycarpus. I will be checking with one of my instructors about whether he has seen palms in Japan when he has visited. He builds Japanese-style gardens in the bay area and has spent time in Japan studying the gardens.

I also have this Hiroshige picture (1833) on my wall (Cycas?) and found this picture in Landscape Gardening in Japan, Volume 2, Josiah Conder, 1893.

 

 

Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 9.26.50 AM.png

Screen Shot 2016-05-29 at 9.24.37 AM.png

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I will make it short here: You have to distinguish between three areas, i.e.
(1) Japanese mainland (hoñdo 本土)
(2) The Ryûkyûs (Ryuukyuu shotoo 琉球諸島)
(3) The Ogasawara Islands (Ogasawara shotoo 小笠原諸島)

In (1) there is only one genus with one species indigenous: Livistona chinensis (var. subglobosa), Jap. biroo 蒲葵.

In (2) we have four genera with four species: Livistona chinensis (biroo 蒲葵); Arenga engleri (var. ryukyuensis) (kurotsugu 桄榔 & komi kurotsugu 小実桄榔); Satakentia liukiuensis (yaeyama yashi 八重山椰子); Nypa fruticans (nippa yashi ニッパ椰子).

In (3) there we have according to Satake (1990) Clinostigma savoryanum (magakuchi yashi 椰子).

Trachycarpus (fortunei & wagnerianus) (shuro 棕櫚) and Rhapis (excelsa & only male humilis) (kañnoñchiku 観音竹 & shurochiku 棕櫚竹) were introduced from China some centuries ago.

The »palms» on your old pics are all Cycas revoluta (sotetsu 蘇鉄).

For palms in (1) and (2) you may have a look at this thread:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/49741-palms-of-the-ry%C3%BBky%C3%BBs/

 

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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Hi Janet,

Just to amplify the very excellent summary above, as a practical matter for your purposes, you would not be able to grow Satakentia liukiuensis, Nypa fruticans, or Clinostigma savoryanum outdoors in Fremont, California, as they require tropical to subtropical conditions to thrive. Of all the palms mentioned, the most cold hardy will be Trachycarpus fortuneii and wagnerianus, Livistona chinensis, and Rhapis excelsa and humilis. The L. chinensis will be more graceful looking (stretched and with relaxed leaflets) grown in some shade.

As an aside, I am really appreciating all the photos and art in this thread!

Edit: I am not familiar with the Arenga ryukyuensis and can't say if you could grow it or not.

 

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Thanks for the clarificatons :O) 

I will keep looking at our local Japanese-style gardens to see if (an how) other gardens use palms/cycads.

With our water conditions here (none for 8 months), I don't want to be adding anything that's water hungry, even if more authentic.
I wouldn't mind adding cycads to our little (extremely un-designed un-authentic) Japenese garden. But I see they like water year-round.

I will be more careful about adding palms/cycads to our authentic Japanese-style garden. (probably won't)

We already have a lovely Mediterranean fan palm in the un-authentic garden that seems quite "in place". Much better adapted for our summer-dry environment.

I'm posting our 1879 Chilean fan palms that stand over our park's Japanese-style garden designed in 1983 around a 100 year old cut-leaf maple and these two palms. Inside the garden (through the gate) you barely notice them :O) They are like two giant pillars.

IMG_0548.jpg

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I always thought people were more likely to over-water the cycads rather than under-water them.

I'm pretty sure you meant "Chilean Wine Palm" rather than "Chilean Fan Palm."  As you can see in the photo, the Jubaea chilensis have pinnate (feather-shaped) leaves, rather than palmate (fan-shaped) leaves.

Edit: several spelling corrections made to rectify the idiot "computer auto-correct" which prefers "chads" over "cycads" and "Judaea" over "Jubaea."

Edited by Kim

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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  • 1 month later...

When I was in Japan I saw many Trachycarpus fortunei, Trachycarpus fortunei 'wagnerianus', Livistona chinensis, Rhapis spp., and, in the south, other palms, in the landscape, including in classical Japanese gardens. The idea that Californians have about what's authentic in the plant palette of Japanese gardens tends to incorrectly exclude palms, it appears.

Jason Dewees

Inner Sunset District

San Francisco, California

Sunset zone 17

USDA zone 10a

21 inches / 530mm annual rainfall, mostly October to April

Humidity averages 60 to 85 percent year-round.

Summer: 67F/55F | 19C/12C

Winter: 56F/44F | 13C/6C

40-year extremes: 96F/26F | 35.5C/-3.8C

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Just as a side note, Clinistigma savorianum is very growable up here in the Bay Area including good microclimates in Fremont provided you give them regular water and partial shade. I have a few in my Los Altos garden and that are slow but steady growers. 

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Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

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Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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