Washingtonia filifera seedling variation

[Las Palmas Norte]

I started some Washingtonia filifera recently from two different trees. A friend gave them to me who'd been in Arizona, both in Phoenix and Scottsdale. Even at this very early stage there appears to be a distinct difference in coloring at the base of these small starts. The one collected in Scottsdale is a white / cream color, while the Phoenix seedlings exhibit a reddish color, very reminiscent of W.robusta. I've also started a reliable "filibusta" hybrid which has about 95% of the seedlings showing the reddish cinnamon color.

My question is it too early, even at this very early stage, to make any certain determinations as to a true species ID? Should I wait till they develop further to make any definite conclusions?

 

Cheers, Barrie.

 

 

[Ben in Norcal]

My guess is the ones exhibiting red are either robusta or hybrids.

[jwitt]

Any washy seed from the PHX area should be considered a hybrid at best. Too young, but the red is not good, if your wanting filifera. 

[smithgn]

Agreed, looking more like a robusta than filifera. Within a year or so, check for any of the hairy fibers. The more hairy fibers the more filifera it is.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Is it 100% certain that the red/brown at seedling stage always points to hybrids/robusta? Is pure filifera always pure green from seedling stage, or do they quickly grow out of these brown patches? 

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

2 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Is it 100% certain that the red/brown at seedling stage always points to hybrids/robusta? Is pure filifera always pure green from seedling stage, or do they quickly grow out of these brown patches? 

 

I ask this because i have three seedlings from seed found under a group of old filifera's in spain. Two have brown patches but the third is completely green. Is this straightforward the difference between hybrid and pure? 

[Sanips]

I think is too early to clarify their ID, that reddish coloration could be produce by a lot of factors. I'm germinating some seeds of filifera from RPS because I think it's a reliable font of pure seeds

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

If he picked them up in Scottsdale there are hybrid mutts all over that town along with a lot of pure Robusta. The Californian desert is the only place to get true reliable seed.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I have a few hundred seedlings germinating right now that should start sending leaves up here in 2-3 weeks.  I'll come back with a few pictures.

[jwitt]

More telling than fibers is the deeply divided leaves and the brown can go away as they get older.  There are a few places in the US that at times only support fruiting filifera and no robusta, DFW 2013), Souther NM and some others. But there may be some hybrid, but no robusta.

Edited March 22, 2016 by jwitt

[Axel Amsterdam]

I just planted out the seedlings I picked up from under large filifera's in Spain. They are a bit stretched from growing inside during winter. They fronds are deeply divided, originally they had some brown patches but the new petiole is green.

[siege2050]

I have some supposed to be pure filifera seeds that were supposed to be collected in an isolated place that sprouted with reddish markings as well. So I am guessing they are not pure. They seem to be slower growers and germinators, and have less red than my filibustas, but not looking good with the red. I hate wasting time on growing something that is not what you wanted.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

 There are about 1000 popping up but not large enough yet for a pic.  Should be another few weeks. 

[SailorBold]

lol.. what a nightmare thread

[aztropic]

I have grown California fan palms a couple of times and they are ALWAYS green/white! Red is a bad sign and should be considered a hybrid!

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona 

[buffy]

So here's the deal. I collected some seed underneath some obviously pure W. filifera that were transported from the desert to the Fairmont Princess resort in Scottsdale. I am quite confident that there are W. robusta in the area. I had nearly 100% germination. I collected from two separate groupings of W. filifera. These suckers were HUGE at the base. Close to Jubaea big at the base. When they germinated in the greenhouse, most had some red in the eophyll/cataphyll first leaf. Some were clean white. I moved the seedlings into the sun, and every single one of them is red now. I don't know what to make of this. I think it would be odd for every single seed to be a hybrid.

Edited June 4, 2016 by buffy
grammer

[Axel Amsterdam]

Buffy, mine had this too but when they got past the seedling stage it disappeared. The two i showed above have clean green petioles now. There is no reddish brown left. Im not convinced it's always a hybrid sign in seedlings. When it stays after seedling stage, then yes.

[buffy]

I've spent some more time staring at these in good light. I would say 2 or 3 out of the bunch of 40+ have negligible red in the eophyll/cataphyll sections. I'm not sure if they're getting the same sun exposure as the front ones, but I'm non-committal on making any claims. I have a 10 foot specimen grown from these same plants that strikes me as a hybrid. Just way too toothy and too much red at the very base. If the non-green few remain green, I'm gonna focus my efforts on growing these to size.

[Axel Amsterdam]

These small filiferas  in various stages were posted on another board by a member from Dallas (Tony). Seems to me that the smaller ones have some brown. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

5 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

These small filiferas  in various stages were posted on another board by a member from Dallas (Tony). Seems to me that the smaller ones have some brown. 

If tony grew these from seed from his tree they aren't pure filifera, in my opinion. I believe his thicker washingtonia is a hybrid. 

[Brad Mondel]

My robusta seedlings have green and red eophylls, maybe it's environmental and/or genetic? Mine might be hybrids though, I got them in California. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

13 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

If tony grew these from seed from his tree they aren't pure filifera, in my opinion. I believe his thicker washingtonia is a hybrid. 

Yes, that's possible. I took this picture of a similar washy in Barcelona. I believe it's a hybrid. The seedlings growing at the bottom were all reddish/ brown

[Las Palmas Norte]

Well at this point, what appears to be the purest (greenest) W. filifera, are seeds collected in Phoenix AZ. Other collection areas seem to have the odd one with even a slight coloring at the base.

Here are my Phoenix AZ W, filifera next to a known cross filibusta.

Cheers, Barrie.

[MSX]

Very interesting topic. So, if the cataphyll (rudimentary leaf) and eophyll (the first true leaf) base of a seedling are red/eggplant in color then we're likely dealing with true W. filifera and instead, if they're green or less intense in color then it's a robusta?

Edited March 11, 2022 by MSX

[Little Tex]

2 hours ago, MSX said:

Very interesting topic. So, if the cataphyll (rudimentary leaf) and eophyll (the first true leaf) base of a seedling are red/eggplant in color then we're likely dealing with true W. filifera and instead, if they're green or less intense in color then it's a robusta?

Normally its the other way around, but people are experiencing anomalies.

[SailorBold]

2 hours ago, Little Tex said:

Normally its the other way around, but people are experiencing anomalies.

Difficult topic.. but as others have stated.. sourcing isolated specimens would increase the chances for purity.. In palmy places like Phoenix there's prolly pollen flying all over the place year round..or with bees whatever..  who knows.. the same can be said perhaps with palms in California and or Nevada.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Well this thread is six years old now, and sadly I killed all the seedlings I had, thru watering neglect back then I have others I'm starting now. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

Interesting read by Villanueva-Almanza et al. (2018) on Washingtonia sps. trait variation (see attached).  In it, they observed various native stands of Washingtonia sps. thoughout their native range, and the found differentiation in traits that seemed to follow a north/south distribution pattern (i.e., more filifera-like in the north, more robusta-like in the south, and more filabusta-like in the middle).  They postulate two hypothesis based on these observations; namely i) there are actually two species that compose the Washingtonia genus, as the current taxonomy supports, which occur at the northern (Washingtonia filifera) and southern (Washingonia robusta) ranges of the genus, with hybridization occurring in the middle (Washingtonia x filibusta); or ii) there is only one species that composes the Washingtonia genus which presents with varying traits correlating to latitude (i.e., how far north or south it naturally occurs), and that what we call the Washingtonia x filibusta hybrid is a natural occurring progression of those observed traits on the "middle" latitudes of the range.  While stopping short of recommending taxonomic changes to the genus, their results provide evidence to support the latter hypothesis.

boy066.pdf

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 3/22/2016 at 2:23 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

I just planted out the seedlings I picked up from under large filifera's in Spain. They are a bit stretched from growing inside during winter. They fronds are deeply divided, originally they had some brown patches but the new petiole is green.

These are mine now, they are slow in my climate but they do allright and the look filiferish. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

Most fronds get damaged during winter, but the ones in the middle keep their filiferish appearance. 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

9 months old. From seeds sold as pure robusta. Seem to be pretty hybridized to me

[DreaminAboutPalms]

I would definitely recommend mass germination (75 seeds or more at once).

I germinated about 100 last June and as they got older some grew noticeably quicker  and produced way bigger leaves and more ideal traits while some were just runts and some lagged behind. I got rid of the weaker ones and now only have about a dozen left. 

in any sort of borderline Climate (Texas) the weaker specimens don’t stand a chance during cold events. That’s the problem with buying Washingtonia from big box stores or nurseries. It’s some field grown robusta hybrid mutt that will burn at 19 degrees.

[Collectorpalms]

15 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

I would definitely recommend mass germination (75 seeds or more at once).

I germinated about 100 last June and as they got older some grew noticeably quicker  and produced way bigger leaves and more ideal traits while some were just runts and some lagged behind. I got rid of the weaker ones and now only have about a dozen left. 

in any sort of borderline Climate (Texas) the weaker specimens don’t stand a chance during cold events. That’s the problem with buying Washingtonia from big box stores or nurseries. It’s some field grown robusta hybrid mutt that will burn at 19 degrees.

I am germinating Native Stand Filifera, and what Appeared to be real deal at best Filifera Tx 3F Survivors FAR from any Robusta had a chance, and out in the open away from buildings. Also probably 50 years old. I have had a nursery in the past so some experience growing these things. Should have some results to share.

I also Have my personal Filiabusta 4F survivor putting out flowers now. With no chance of a cross pollination. Just hope the seeds form before the utilities take it down.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[ahosey01]

6 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I am germinating Native Stand Filifera, and what Appeared to be real deal at best Filifera Tx 3F Survivors FAR from any Robusta had a chance, and out in the open away from buildings. Also probably 50 years old. I have had a nursery in the past so some experience growing these things. Should have some results to share.

I also Have my personal Filiabusta 4F survivor putting out flowers now. With no chance of a cross pollination. Just hope the seeds form before the utilities take it down.

Hit me up if you want a remote spot in AZ where you can find these producing seed in - what the ASU botany department - believes was the first native stand of W. filifera discovered by a European in, if I'm remembering correctly, 1836.

[Collectorpalms]

5 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Hit me up if you want a remote spot in AZ where you can find these producing seed in - what the ASU botany department - believes was the first native stand of W. filifera discovered by a European in, if I'm remembering correctly, 1836.

SENT PM THANKS, RYAN

[Xerarch]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Hit me up if you want a remote spot in AZ where you can find these producing seed in - what the ASU botany department - believes was the first native stand of W. filifera discovered by a European in, if I'm remembering correctly, 1836.

I've visited native stands of filifera at castle hot springs and at the KOFA mountains, also I've wondered if those at the hassayampa river preserve right there by you aren't native.  I talked to one guy there that thinks they are, but they haven't been studied enough.  Everyone seems to agree about the KOFA population being native, I have seen ample evidence about the castle hot springs population that I am convinced, although there are those that dispute their nativity there.  Hassayampa river preserve, well maybe, maybe not. 

[ahosey01]

Just now, Xerarch said:

I've visited native stands of filifera a castle hot springs and at the KOFA mountains, also I've wondered if those at the hassayampa river preserve right there by you aren't native.  I talked to one guy there that thinks they are, but they haven't been studied enough.  Everyone seems to agree about the KOFA population being native, I have seen ample evidence about the castle hot springs population that I am convinced, although there are those that dispute their nativity there.  Hassayampa river preserve, well maybe, maybe not. 

This is the ASU botany article published in 1990 that claims that the castle hot springs population is the first one discovered by Europeans:

https://www.public.asu.edu/~camartin/plants/Plant html files/washingtonia_filifera.htm

Obviously they could be incorrect.  The Kofa thing is interesting because there are several other canyons to the south of Palm Canyon that are way harder to get to and would have been just as hard for any humans that came before us, leading me to believe they were almost certainly pooped there by birds.  Native by my definition.

[Xerarch]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

This is the ASU botany article published in 1990 that claims that the castle hot springs population is the first one discovered by Europeans:

https://www.public.asu.edu/~camartin/plants/Plant html files/washingtonia_filifera.htm

Obviously they could be incorrect.  The Kofa thing is interesting because there are several other canyons to the south of Palm Canyon that are way harder to get to and would have been just as hard for any humans that came before us, leading me to believe they were almost certainly pooped there by birds.  Native by my definition.

Yes, that’s an interesting article, I’ve read it before, along with some other articles here and there (which of course I don’t have handy to share) that make a good case about that population. In a related train of thought, there is an ongoing discussion about the possibility of the population at Moana NV being native. I’ve read some strong opinions about it. 

[MSX]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:03 AM, DreaminAboutPalms said:

I would definitely recommend mass germination (75 seeds or more at once).

I germinated about 100 last June and as they got older some grew noticeably quicker  and produced way bigger leaves and more ideal traits while some were just runts and some lagged behind. I got rid of the weaker ones and now only have about a dozen left. 

in any sort of borderline Climate (Texas) the weaker specimens don’t stand a chance during cold events. That’s the problem with buying Washingtonia from big box stores or nurseries. It’s some field grown robusta hybrid mutt that will burn at 19 degrees.

But W. filiferas are known to be naturally slower growers compared to w. robustas/hybrids so by doing this I mean by eliminating slower growers & selecting the fastest ones don't you leave the ones that might have more of w. robusta traits/genes?

While I only need actually one or two W. filifera palms for my lot, taking into account their adult size I just don't have room for more, I germinated 25 seeds, killed 5 seedlings by breaking down the roots while transplanting them, etc, some just died without any reason, so I have 20 left for the moment, now they're 5-month-old, and what I want to say at this stage I don't see any major differences between them in terms of growth speed or coloring, so I don't have clear understanding for now how to select "the best ones" among them, it is sad that at some point I have to get rid of most of them.

 

[Collectorpalms]

2 minutes ago, MSX said:

But W. filiferas are known to be naturally slower growers compared to w. robustas/hybrids so by doing this I mean by eliminating slower growers & selecting the fastest ones don't you leave the ones that might have more of w. robusta traits/genes?

While I only need actually one or two W. filifera palms for my lot, taking into account their adult size I just don't have room for more, I germinated 25 seeds, killed 5 seedlings by breaking down the roots while transplanting them, etc, some just died without any reason, so I have 20 left for the moment, now they're 5-month-old, and what I want to say at this stage I don't see any major differences between them in terms of growth speed or coloring, so I don't have clear understanding for now how to select "the best ones" among them, it is sad that at some point I have to get rid of most of them.

 

I think it depends on if you are in an arid climate if your potting mix has the right nutrients….. but yes. In a batch of Mixed offspring ( 2 parents), for a novice in the humid southern USA the robusta high genes are ones I’d think be robust growers. 
….you can’t give them the same treatment.