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wrigjef

Scottsdale Coconut

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palmsOrl

Really doesn't look all that bad.

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pj_orlando_z9b

Any idea your average soil temp in winter? Low 40s should be fine for it and even 30s here and there. Mine has seen about 6 nights per winter in the 30s and damage has been minimal. Dry soil should also help. 

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GottmitAlex
31 minutes ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Any idea your average soil temp in winter? Low 40s should be fine for it and even 30s here and there. Mine has seen about 6 nights per winter in the 30s and damage has been minimal. Dry soil should also help. 

I concur. I believe our lowest this past winter was 3C/37F one morning. However our winter was prolonged way into May. Heck, we never had a Spring. 

As I mentioned in another thread,  one of the golden malayan dwarf spears took 4 months to grow and open up. When it did half of the spear collapsed on its own weight.  The succeeding spears/fronds have been magnificent.  But yes, prolonged cool weather will affect coconuts negatively and not the isolated 30F dip or the one-time frost.

Although thinking about it, the Corona coconut is the exception to the rule.

Edited by GottmitAlex
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Mr. Coconut Palm

I wouldn't even worry about protecting it with a few nights each winter in the 30'sF.  Even an occasional dip down to 30F or 32F every few years shouldn't hurt it much if it is healthy.  Even an occasional light to moderate frost shouldn't hurt a healthy Coconut Palm that is at least 8ft. to 10ft. tall.

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wrigjef
1 hour ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Any idea your average soil temp in winter? Low 40s should be fine for it and even 30s here and there. Mine has seen about 6 nights per winter in the 30s and damage has been minimal. Dry soil should also help. 

I have spoken to two different  tree nursery owners near my house and to my surprise they both said Phoenix soil temps are very warm year round.  At least above 60 in the coldest months.  It’s very dry so root rot is never a concern. Our soil drys out very quickly after watering even in winter  and my palm is in all sand. 

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wrigjef
57 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I wouldn't even worry about protecting it with a few nights each winter in the 30'sF.  Even an occasional dip down to 30F or 32F every few years shouldn't hurt it much if it is healthy.  Even an occasional light to moderate frost shouldn't hurt a healthy Coconut Palm that is at least 8ft. to 10ft. tall.

Phoenix is cold at night in winter.  If haven’t lived here you probably wouldn’t believe it. On average we are in the low to mid 40’s every night.  Mid 30’s are not uncommon as I would guess there are on average of 20 or so nights a year at least in the 30’s.  Frosts on average 3-5 nights and freeze 2 nights.  

On the other hand it’s a dry cold so I don’t think the cold temps affect the palm like it would in Corpus or Orlando.  Cocos don’t like cold wet roots at all.  That is my only advantage.  

The palm absolutely does need protection where I live, in reality I don’t think there is a chance this palm will survive here long term but it’s the journey that keeps me going. I love seeing people push the limits of where a particular palm should grow.  

Are there any cocos growing near Corpus?  I know there are a “few” growing on South Padre but that is it in all of Texas which is surprising.   I doubt Corpus has any at all but would be awesome to see!   

 

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pj_orlando_z9b
22 hours ago, wrigjef said:

Phoenix is cold at night in winter.  If haven’t lived here you probably wouldn’t believe it. On average we are in the low to mid 40’s every night.  Mid 30’s are not uncommon as I would guess there are on average of 20 or so nights a year at least in the 30’s.  Frosts on average 3-5 nights and freeze 2 nights.  

On the other hand it’s a dry cold so I don’t think the cold temps affect the palm like it would in Corpus or Orlando.  Cocos don’t like cold wet roots at all.  That is my only advantage.  

The palm absolutely does need protection where I live, in reality I don’t think there is a chance this palm will survive here long term but it’s the journey that keeps me going. I love seeing people push the limits of where a particular palm should grow.  

Are there any cocos growing near Corpus?  I know there are a “few” growing on South Padre but that is it in all of Texas which is surprising.   I doubt Corpus has any at all but would be awesome to see!   

 

Agree and keep going! People, especially palm enthusiasts believe it or not, have told me I'm foolish for growing a coconut. I even had one challenge me that my zone pushing is morally wrong because it is not natural and how new diseases are spread. Whatever. Will it be here in a year, 5, or 10? Who knows. But I'm enjoying the ride.

One thing you mentioned is moisture. Not Phoenix dry, but Orlando is actually very dry in winter and a huge benefit. Florida has 2 distinct seasons...rainy and dry. It's avg to have only 6-8 inches of rain Dec thru Mar/Apr. Then in 2018, I had 35" from June thru Aug. 

I enjoy your updates and wish you all the best growing!

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buffy

Next time you build your greenhouse around it, add a good fan. The spotting was probably fungus from static air. 

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GottmitAlex
On 8/12/2019 at 5:33 PM, wrigjef said:

Ando.wsu,

Well it was the worst winter I recall in 20 years of living in Phoenix.  I see you live in Avondale so you can attest.  The palm is alive and pushing out a new frond but took a long time to start growing again. The palm almost completely defoliated this winter but not for the reason you might think. It was my stupidity that almost killed it.  At my house we had several freezes.  My guess is about 7-10 days with outside temps in my yard at or just below freezing.  The coldest I recorded was 28 degrees and I have 3 thermometers placed around my property.   The palm was in its “greenhouse” and the lowest temp recorded inside was 38 degrees.

I had the heat lamp like normal in the greenhouse but After several nights in the low 40’s and one night in the 30’s the older fronds started to spot real bad.  I put in a small space heater I have used several times but made the huge mistake of not moving the heater much further away from the tree and I almost fried it.   

The next day every frond was limp and touching the ground.  I thought for sure I killed it.  I felt the base of the trunk and it felt like 130 degrees so I knew I caused it.  

The palm did survive and pushed out a half burnt frond that opened prematurely and then went limp and shriveled up.  Then the new frond after that pushed out normally but very slow.  I will send an updated picture soon.  

What I use every winter to check the temperature the brood lamps generate on the meristem is a cheap IR thermometer gun. Link to ebay item

I like to keep the meristem at 23C (usually with a 125w brood lamp, that is about 1 foot away. )

Doing great with your coconut. Pretty sure next summer it will look stunning again.

Keep it up!

 

 

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wrigjef
On 8/17/2019 at 4:51 AM, buffy said:

Next time you build your greenhouse around it, add a good fan. The spotting was probably fungus from static air. 

Very good thought. Thanks 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
On 8/14/2019 at 9:36 PM, wrigjef said:

Phoenix is cold at night in winter.  If haven’t lived here you probably wouldn’t believe it. On average we are in the low to mid 40’s every night.  Mid 30’s are not uncommon as I would guess there are on average of 20 or so nights a year at least in the 30’s.  Frosts on average 3-5 nights and freeze 2 nights.  

On the other hand it’s a dry cold so I don’t think the cold temps affect the palm like it would in Corpus or Orlando.  Cocos don’t like cold wet roots at all.  That is my only advantage.  

The palm absolutely does need protection where I live, in reality I don’t think there is a chance this palm will survive here long term but it’s the journey that keeps me going. I love seeing people push the limits of where a particular palm should grow.  

Are there any cocos growing near Corpus?  I know there are a “few” growing on South Padre but that is it in all of Texas which is surprising.   I doubt Corpus has any at all but would be awesome to see!   

 

There were a few trunking CocnutvPalm with some nuts on them here in Corpus Christ prior to the 2011 freeze, which was a hard freeze down to about 27F or 28F, which on and of itself is not too bad for a healthy mature Cocount Palm, but it was the duration of the freeze that killed 2 of the 3 I am thinking of and totally exfoliated the third one.  I saw that third line survivor after moving here, but was told about the other two.  All were on the east side of town near the water.  The one on the island (North Padre Island) was the largest, probably about 25ft tall in overall height with medium sized nuts on it, but irinically died as it was on an exposed location in someone's yard from.what I was told.  Normally one here on the island would have the best chance of surviving due to the buffering effect of the waterfall around the island.  If I had to guess, there are probably a dozen or more small to juvenile size ones being grown here now.  My largest one is a Green Malayan Dwarf and is now about 15 ft.. tall in overall height.  In the Rio Grande Vakkey, there are probably about 150 to 200 being grown there, and out of those probably only about 2 orc3 dozen mature ones, but there should be thousands of them grown there, as the do pretty well there and produce viable nuts!!!

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Mr. Coconut Palm

Sorry for all the typos.  I am using a damn "smart" phone, which is very hard to type on, and I honestly think.is the DUMBEST invention of mankind!!!

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wrigjef
28 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

There were a few trunking CocnutvPalm with some nuts on them here in Corpus Christ prior to the 2011 freeze, which was a hard freeze down to about 27F or 28F, which on and of itself is not too bad for a healthy mature Cocount Palm, but it was the duration of the freeze that killed 2 of the 3 I am thinking of and totally exfoliated the third one.  I saw that third line survivor after moving here, but was told about the other two.  All were on the east side of town near the water.  The one on the island (North Padre Island) was the largest, probably about 25ft tall in overall height with medium sized nuts on it, but irinically died as it was on an exposed location in someone's yard from.what I was told.  Normally one here on the island would have the best chance of surviving due to the buffering effect of the waterfall around the island.  If I had to guess, there are probably a dozen or more small to juvenile size ones being grown here now.  My largest one is a Green Malayan Dwarf and is now about 15 ft.. tall in overall height.  In the Rio Grande Vakkey, there are probably about 150 to 200 being grown there, and out of those probably only about 2 orc3 dozen mature ones, but there should be thousands of them grown there, as the do pretty well there and produce viable nuts!!!

That is so great to read!   You need to send pics of your coco immediately if not sooner!

I go on Zillo (real-estate website) all the time just to see what the yards look like in varies part of the US.  Palm related of course. I have looked extensively in Corpus Christi and Port Aransas and have only seen a few what I call tropical palms.  I spotted a couple Fox tails and a few smaller Royals but never a coco.  Even looking on South Padre and Brownsville I see very few cocos and some Royals that look to be struggling.

I look at Florida and I say the Mason/Dixon line of coconut palms is on Merritt Island which is Cocoa Beach and I  see them pretty much all over the place near the water. 

Corpus Christi is as far south as Vero Beach and Vero is totally tropical.  Foxtails  and Royals are a dime a dozen.  Areca Palms are 20 feet tall and are the best property border on the planet.  Christmas Palms are everywhere and Cocos are so healthy. 

It fascinates me that Corpus Christi down to South Padre is the equivalent of Vero Beach  to just north of Miami and FL is WAY more tropical.   I think it’s weather and the Jet Stream that dips way lower in TX because it over land from  the West and FL has that large body of water called the Gulf of Mexico that blocks that really cold air from reaching basically south of Vero Beach.its the only thing I can come up with.

 Send some pics of tropical Palms around  your area!   

 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
19 hours ago, wrigjef said:

That is so great to read!   You need to send pics of your coco immediately if not sooner!

I go on Zillo (real-estate website) all the time just to see what the yards look like in varies part of the US.  Palm related of course. I have looked extensively in Corpus Christi and Port Aransas and have only seen a few what I call tropical palms.  I spotted a couple Fox tails and a few smaller Royals but never a coco.  Even looking on South Padre and Brownsville I see very few cocos and some Royals that look to be struggling.

I look at Florida and I say the Mason/Dixon line of coconut palms is on Merritt Island which is Cocoa Beach and I  see them pretty much all over the place near the water. 

Corpus Christi is as far south as Vero Beach and Vero is totally tropical.  Foxtails  and Royals are a dime a dozen.  Areca Palms are 20 feet tall and are the best property border on the planet.  Christmas Palms are everywhere and Cocos are so healthy. 

It fascinates me that Corpus Christi down to South Padre is the equivalent of Vero Beach  to just north of Miami and FL is WAY more tropical.   I think it’s weather and the Jet Stream that dips way lower in TX because it over land from  the West and FL has that large body of water called the Gulf of Mexico that blocks that really cold air from reaching basically south of Vero Beach.its the only thing I can come up with.

 Send some pics of tropical Palms around  your area!   

 

You are right about WHY Vero Beach is more tropical than here, even though we are on about the same latitude.  It's because of the cold continental air masses that affect us more in the winter, but with Climate Change, the east side of Corpus Christi near the water has gone from Zone 9B to 10A over the last 20 to 30 years, and we DO have a few 40ft. tall in overall height Cuban Royal Palms here!!!

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Mr. Coconut Palm

For some reason, I can't postybphotos here.  Palmtalks photo policy reallyvticks me off sometimes.

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Palmalago

I can't either and I have a coconut palm in Phoenix

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wrigjef
11 hours ago, Palmalago said:

I can't either and I have a coconut palm in Phoenix

 I only use my I phone to post pictures. I pull them right from my saved pictures I have had issues posting pics using my PC

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Xenon
On 8/19/2019 at 11:03 PM, wrigjef said:

That is so great to read!   You need to send pics of your coco immediately if not sooner!

I go on Zillo (real-estate website) all the time just to see what the yards look like in varies part of the US.  Palm related of course. I have looked extensively in Corpus Christi and Port Aransas and have only seen a few what I call tropical palms.  I spotted a couple Fox tails and a few smaller Royals but never a coco.  Even looking on South Padre and Brownsville I see very few cocos and some Royals that look to be struggling.

I look at Florida and I say the Mason/Dixon line of coconut palms is on Merritt Island which is Cocoa Beach and I  see them pretty much all over the place near the water. 

Corpus Christi is as far south as Vero Beach and Vero is totally tropical.  Foxtails  and Royals are a dime a dozen.  Areca Palms are 20 feet tall and are the best property border on the planet.  Christmas Palms are everywhere and Cocos are so healthy. 

It fascinates me that Corpus Christi down to South Padre is the equivalent of Vero Beach  to just north of Miami and FL is WAY more tropical.   I think it’s weather and the Jet Stream that dips way lower in TX because it over land from  the West and FL has that large body of water called the Gulf of Mexico that blocks that really cold air from reaching basically south of Vero Beach.its the only thing I can come up with.

 Send some pics of tropical Palms around  your area!   

 

Agree with you on Fl at equivalent latitude being more tropical. But there are thousands of royal palms in the Brownsville-McAllen area (Cameron and Hidalgo counties). I regularly check Zillow too and you would be hard pressed to find a page without at least a few listings with royal palms. They are especially popular with new development and are now even more popular than queen palms. They are locally field grown, so there's definitely a market. They're featured in public areas too i.e downtown Brownsville, UT RGV, Macy's McAllen. If you're looking through streetview, it won't do the area justice as most photos date from 2011 - just after the worst freeze since 1989 (equivalent of the 2010 freeze in FL). Things look MUCH better now. 

Edited by Xenon
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pj_orlando_z9b
On 8/20/2019 at 12:03 AM, wrigjef said:

Corpus Christi is as far south as Vero Beach and Vero is totally tropical. 

 

Generally I agree about Vero and the statement from Cocoa and points south having nice coconuts. But all those areas are also vulnerable and not truly tropical. Vero and Ft Myers lost a lot of coconuts in 2010 from the freeze. In FL, every miles south and east makes a big difference with the progression of cold. 

Orlando can have mid-term success with z10 palms. With a little luck, there have been runs of warmer winters. This is one of the largest coconuts in town. It was planted around 2005 and never protected. The other is mine after 4 years in the ground. 

PSX_20190822_123641.jpg

20190821_014229.jpg

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palmsOrl

Both of those are absolutely stunning!!!  If only they didn't trim the inflorescences off the one on I-Drive.

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wrigjef
8 hours ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Generally I agree about Vero and the statement from Cocoa and points south having nice coconuts. But all those areas are also vulnerable and not truly tropical. Vero and Ft Myers lost a lot of coconuts in 2010 from the freeze. In FL, every miles south and east makes a big difference with the progression of cold. 

Orlando can have mid-term success with z10 palms. With a little luck, there have been runs of warmer winters. This is one of the largest coconuts in town. It was planted around 2005 and never protected. The other is mine after 4 years in the ground. 

PSX_20190822_123641.jpg

20190821_014229.jpg

I figured Cocoa Beach was a place that could experience widespread death of tropicals from time to time. I remember visiting Ron Jon’s Surf shop back in the mid 90’s and there was a huge Coconut Palm outside the front door that is gone now.  Maybe you know the one I am referring too. 

As far as Vero Beach I thought that was far enough South to not be effected by the cold thanks for sharing.  How far south on the east coast do you think you need to get to be safe from losing tropicals?   I’m heading to South Hutchison Island at the end of September for a week, my in laws live there.  

Your Coco in the yard is amazing, very impressed with it looking that large after 4 years in the ground.  Did you plant from a seedling or was it in a pot for a while?   My Palm I kept in a pot for 3 years before planing and now in the ground for 3 years.  My growth is sooo slow with my climate.  

The coconut from town is awesome, I saw that on the other thread about 10b Palms in Orlando.  That was a great read. 

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palmsOrl

I was at Ron John's in November and recall there being several larger coconuts on the grounds.  In-fact Cocos are very common in Cocoa Beach.

Edited by palmsOrl
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wrigjef
3 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

I was at Ron John's in November and recall there being several larger coconuts on the grounds.  In-fact Cocos are very common in Cocoa Beach.

I don’t doubt you at all. If I lived there I would plant more cocos as they died!  But the question really is when we’re these cocos planted?   Surely post 2010!   The coco I’m referring to was at least 40ft but my guess was 50ft. It was a monster and now it’s gone!    

Edited by wrigjef

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pj_orlando_z9b
4 hours ago, wrigjef said:

I figured Cocoa Beach was a place that could experience widespread death of tropicals from time to time. I remember visiting Ron Jon’s Surf shop back in the mid 90’s and there was a huge Coconut Palm outside the front door that is gone now.  Maybe you know the one I am referring too. 

As far as Vero Beach I thought that was far enough South to not be effected by the cold thanks for sharing.  How far south on the east coast do you think you need to get to be safe from losing tropicals?   I’m heading to South Hutchison Island at the end of September for a week, my in laws live there.  

Your Coco in the yard is amazing, very impressed with it looking that large after 4 years in the ground.  Did you plant from a seedling or was it in a pot for a while?   My Palm I kept in a pot for 3 years before planing and now in the ground for 3 years.  My growth is sooo slow with my climate.  

The coconut from town is awesome, I saw that on the other thread about 10b Palms in Orlando.  That was a great read. 

From eyewitness accounts, many cocos near the water survived in Vero that winter. So either coastal Vero or just south of there. I always say West Palm south is the safe zone. I bought mine for $19 and planted it right in the ground (pic below) It took a beating in Jan 2018 when 1 night dipped to 28F. Last winter had 1 night below 40F. Such is like in 9b Florida. Took 12 months for the crown to fully grow back. This summet is the first year it fruited. 

Screenshot_20190823-015841_Photos.jpg

Screenshot_20190812-005814_Gallery.jpg

Edited by pj_orlando_z9b
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palmsOrl

What a magnificent palm yours has turned into PJ.  When exactly did you plant it?

I am sure Cocoa Beach had substantial Cocos mortality as a result of the 2010 cold and freezes, however, I would guess that a fair number survived right by the beach.

When I would visit in the 1990s, I recall seeing just a few specimens and being so impressed, there seem to be far, far more there now.

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wrigjef

F7EA326B-941B-46CB-8BC4-5C29505A83C4.jpeg

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wrigjef

A month since the last pic and the new frond is opening nicely.  One monsoon storm woke it up!  

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Yunder Wækraus
On 8/23/2019 at 4:13 PM, pj_orlando_z9b said:

From eyewitness accounts, many cocos near the water survived in Vero that winter. So either coastal Vero or just south of there. I always say West Palm south is the safe zone. I bought mine for $19 and planted it right in the ground (pic below) It took a beating in Jan 2018 when 1 night dipped to 28F. Last winter had 1 night below 40F. Such is like in 9b Florida. Took 12 months for the crown to fully grow back. This summet is the first year it fruited. 

Screenshot_20190823-015841_Photos.jpg

Screenshot_20190812-005814_Gallery.jpg

I've said this elsewhere, but very few coconuts died in freezes on Barrier Island (the official, dumb name for the barrier island north of Orchid Island, which is where Vero is). My relatives have lived on the island continuously for 50-odd years, and when I lived on the island 2015-2018, I had a neighbor who'd been on the same Indialantic street for more than 30 years. This neighbor had several mature coconuts just one property west from A1A, and he said he never lost one to freezes (which would have included the worst '80s freezes), but he did lose some to a micro-burst or mini-tornado in a hurricane. There are many mature coconuts in the neighborhood, including several that must be 40+ years old. I would say the sweet spot for long-term coconut survival is South Patrick Shores on south.

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Palmalago

Coconut loving this weather in Phoenix

IMG_20190923_085440.jpg

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PalmTreeDude
On 8/22/2019 at 12:45 PM, pj_orlando_z9b said:

Generally I agree about Vero and the statement from Cocoa and points south having nice coconuts. But all those areas are also vulnerable and not truly tropical. Vero and Ft Myers lost a lot of coconuts in 2010 from the freeze. In FL, every miles south and east makes a big difference with the progression of cold. 

Orlando can have mid-term success with z10 palms. With a little luck, there have been runs of warmer winters. This is one of the largest coconuts in town. It was planted around 2005 and never protected. The other is mine after 4 years in the ground. 

PSX_20190822_123641.jpg

20190821_014229.jpg

Those are some amazing coconuts! The one you grow looks so full and healthy. The Butia in the back is also cool to see with a coconut not far from it. 

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ando.wsu
On 8/12/2019 at 5:33 PM, wrigjef said:

Ando.wsu,

Well it was the worst winter I recall in 20 years of living in Phoenix.  I see you live in Avondale so you can attest.  The palm is alive and pushing out a new frond but took a long time to start growing again. The palm almost completely defoliated this winter but not for the reason you might think. It was my stupidity that almost killed it.  At my house we had several freezes.  My guess is about 7-10 days with outside temps in my yard at or just below freezing.  The coldest I recorded was 28 degrees and I have 3 thermometers placed around my property.   The palm was in its “greenhouse” and the lowest temp recorded inside was 38 degrees.

I had the heat lamp like normal in the greenhouse but After several nights in the low 40’s and one night in the 30’s the older fronds started to spot real bad.  I put in a small space heater I have used several times but made the huge mistake of not moving the heater much further away from the tree and I almost fried it.   

The next day every frond was limp and touching the ground.  I thought for sure I killed it.  I felt the base of the trunk and it felt like 130 degrees so I knew I caused it.  

The palm did survive and pushed out a half burnt frond that opened prematurely and then went limp and shriveled up.  Then the new frond after that pushed out normally but very slow.  I will send an updated picture soon.  

Thanks for the update.  Looks like the latest pic you posted it is recovering.  My coconut I bought 1.5 years ago grew quite a bit since February 2019.  Pic shows progression from February this year, July, and current.  

9B6F7850-7F0F-417A-B1AA-7DA0BEBEC711.jpeg

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ando.wsu
13 minutes ago, ando.wsu said:

Thanks for the update.  Looks like the latest pic you posted it is recovering.  My coconut I bought 1.5 years ago grew quite a bit since February 2019.  Pic shows progression from February this year, July, and current.  

9B6F7850-7F0F-417A-B1AA-7DA0BEBEC711.jpeg

 

65C5B083-A996-49BC-B430-5791FF52FE02.png

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wrigjef

Thanks for the pics of your palms. Good to see some Phoenix people trying to grow them.  I just got back from South Hutchinson Island. I paid special attention to the coconuts on the island and some are clearly 30 plus years old. I notice they grow wild on the sides of the roads near the beach.  I found a dozen or more just walking on the beach.  One was even germinated so I put it just inside the sea grass line. Hope it grows 

My coco 3 weeks since last pic. Opening nicely!

7CB46DDD-2790-457E-A1AA-9EA6AF91CB52.jpeg

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