W. Robusta large leaf troubles

[RobustaEnvirons]

Hi everyone. Recently, my potted Washingtonia Robusta's largest leaf has turned yellow/brown. I noticed it start to fold up and compact last week. Little by little it just turned yellow and then brown. I don't quite understand it. It only has the large leaf and then an emerging new growth leaf. Now that its large leaf is pretty well toasted, it now only has the new growth. 

All this time it's had that leaf and it did well. Its been since August/September. I do very little to it. Since Winter began I haven't even watered it too much. Others have said to not water too much in Winter. With the furnace heat, I do water it every month or perhaps longer (a bottle of water). 

I leave it to it's own devices. For all this time it's been chugging along. The large leaf only went downhill in the last 7-10 days (rather rapidly it seems). 

I haven't done anything to it apart from putting a zip-tie around the trunk to prop it up. It was leaning over quite a bit as it's pretty much always done. So I put that zip-tie around the dowel rod and the trunk.

The tie is very lose and barely clicked on there. I hardly think that could have caused this, but I thought I'd mention it anyhow. 

I attribute this to the lack of sunny days recently. Since its February we're experiencing cloudy days more often. However, with this year's El-Nino we have had a greater number of Sunny days this year. 

I'm glad it's still got the new growth in the center. The large leaf does still have a lick of green on it. Should I leave it there until its completely gone, or snip it off now?

Is this something to be concerned with, or is it just due to lack of sun or something? I'm hoping once Spring gets her in another 41 days, it'll really start pushing out a lot of new growth.

Thank you everyone! I always appreciate it. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

[Pal Meir]

Cut off the old dried leaf and give the palm lots of water, or better: put the whole pot in a bucket filled with water for a couple of hours.

[RobustaEnvirons]

38 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

Cut off the old dried leaf and give the palm lots of water, or better: put the whole pot in a bucket filled with water for a couple of hours.

Okay, no problem. I'll do that. So you think this is due to not watering it enough. 

I've always heard not to water too much in Winter due to reduced activity in Winter. I always worry about root-rot. 

But, thank you Pal for the help. I will do this. I appreciate it. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I'm pretty sure I told you the palm needed watered in your other post.  There is no way on earth that you will root rot a robusta in a pot with even poorly drained soil. Give the plant some water before you kill it.

[PalmatierMeg]

Agree. Your centrally heated house is probably dry as the Sahara. It sucks all the moisture out of your palm and its soil, also fosters spider mites. Give it a good long soak in tepid water. I also suggest that when temps rise above freezing that you let it go outside during the day. It can probably take even a few degrees lower but your increased anxiety isn't worth the attempt. As early in the spring as you can, kick it outdoors to stay until late fall. This is a tough palm but it is not engineered to be a long term houseplant.

[RobustaEnvirons]

2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I'm pretty sure I told you the palm needed watered in your other post.  There is no way on earth that you will root rot a robusta in a pot with even poorly drained soil. Give the plant some water before you kill it.

Ok, I understand. I watered it today. I drenched it.

I did water it though after you said to in the other post. I dumped a full bottle of water in it (16.9 oz). I did as you said. 

Well, its pretty well trenches now. Water is leaking out of the bottom. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Agree. Your centrally heated house is probably dry as the Sahara. It sucks all the moisture out of your palm and its soil, also fosters spider mites. Give it a good long soak in tepid water. I also suggest that when temps rise above freezing that you let it go outside during the day. It can probably take even a few degrees lower but your increased anxiety isn't worth the attempt. As early in the spring as you can, kick it outdoors to stay until late fall. This is a tough palm but it is not engineered to be a long term houseplant.

 This is so embarrassing. I can't believe I let it get that underwatered. I had some people say before that its bad to water a lot in Winter. But, I also have the furnace drying it out.

Also, I worried about root rot. But, now I know root rot isn't an issue. I had thought it was a bigger deal than it is. I watered it just now, I watered it so much that watered it rapidly flowed out of the bottem drainage holes. It's quite saturated.

As I understand it these are dessert palms and I thought they required only a trickle of water to survive. Like an ultra efficent machine. So I figured a furnace probably simulates the Sonora dessert where there from. I made this mistake recently with my small Robusta as well. But, now that I know this is not so. Geez, I can't catch a break.

Are you sure it'll survive potted in cold temps like that? It does get in the upper 30s-40s (occasionally upper 40s) some days here. Its been very mild this Winter. It's been quite sunny lately despite the cold temps. Yesterday it reached 49F during the day, and sunshine all day long. However, this week looks grim. It's only supposed to get colder each day until Sat. Most days this week are forecast to be 32F or lower. Thursday's high is 12F and it's supposed to snow all week. 

I will put it outside if you're confident it won't die. What about the Wind Chill factor, sleet, and etc? We can still get that above 32F here in Toledo Ohio. 

I don't mean to question you, I'm only wondering.

Thank you for your help. I appreciate youre time. 

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[PalmatierMeg]

Wind chill doesn't lower ambient temps. You can place pot in a sheltered position away from drying winds. Humidity should higher outdoors. They laugh at 30s/40s. It will be much happier in fresh air. Don't try to dictate when it should be watered - there are no concrete rules about that. If the top 1" of soil is dry water it. If not, check the next day, etc.

Can I guarantee the palm won't die? Absolutely not. I found two of my own dead today. If yours dies tomorrow, get another That's what we do here.

[RobustaEnvirons]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Wind chill doesn't lower ambient temps. You can place pot in a sheltered position away from drying winds. Humidity should higher outdoors. They laugh at 30s/40s. It will be much happier in fresh air. Don't try to dictate when it should be watered - there are no concrete rules about that. If the top 1" of soil is dry water it. If not, check the next day, etc.

Can I guarantee the palm won't die? Absolutely not. I found two of my own dead today. If yours dies tomorrow, get another That's what we do here.

Ok, thank you. That's very helpful. I had not known W.Robusta are so cold hardy. I assumed they couldn't take temps below 50F while in a pot. I guess I was mistaken. 

Watering has always been my weakness. I can't seem to get a grip on how much water to give, when to give it, and or the signs that it may need water. For me, my Palms do really great and then I discover all of a sudden they're dying of thirst. Lol.

But, I will try to remember what you've said. Thank you. That's very helpful. 

That particular Robusta cost me $30 on eBay and had to be shipped from St. Petersburg Florida to my home in Toledo Ohio. Since I can't buy them locally at all, I must pay and buy them online. Places around here get a good chuckle when I ask if they carry palms. I wish I could just swing by the local nursery and buy another.

Sorry to hear about your palms dying. That's hard to have happen. My weakness is that I get attached to my palms and don't want to see them die, especially after having had it so long and after so much mony and hard work put into it. It's hard to start over again.

[Pando]

Richard, the key to watering indoor palms is to let the soil get dry at the top inch or two (test with fingers), then drench until water comes out of the bottom. Then repeat the cycle. This will flush the salts out of the soil, which will end up accumulating if you water it frequently little bit at a time. Some species however don't like to dry out and have to be kept moist at all times. Others like to dry out almost completely. It's a great balancing act. Good draining soil is a must in any case. Some palms just like to die no matter what you do...  I just had a 15g Bentinckia condapanna die on me (as I found out later: premature leaf pull + got too wet with rain), so yeah, it hurts.

While I've mentioned previously that Washies grow here in a completely dry conditions in asphalt cracks under a blazing sun, getting only occasional moisture from our infrequent rain, growing one in a pot indoors is likely a different matter. It's tricky to grow palms indoors, and some species do better than others. Washy is probably not one of them, unfortunately. Good indoor palms include several Chamaedorea species, Rhapis, and probably Kentia (Howea forsteriana) as well to some degree... Heck, you could even try a coconut, which would give you enjoyment for a year or two...  

Edited February 9, 2016 by Pando

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

If you paid $30 for that plant you paid way too much.  Keep it moist and put it outside as outlined above.

[RobustaEnvirons]

10 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

If you paid $30 for that plant you paid way too much.  Keep it moist and put it outside as outlined above.

It looked like a good deal at the time. It actually was the lowest price for the size it was (free shipping) on eBay when I bought it.  

Edited February 9, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[Laaz]

I'll just add, if that is in potting soil it will dry out way to fast. Replant it in one of the garden soil mixes.

[RobustaEnvirons]

6 minutes ago, Laaz said:

I'll just add, if that is in potting soil it will dry out way to fast. Replant it in one of the garden soil mixes.

I have it in Miracle Grow "Cactus, Palm, and Succulent" Potting mix. I have that mixed in with Perlite and Sand. I was told to have good drainage since they don't like to sit in water. In warm months it seems they do very well. But, it seems like once the heat comes on in fall, that's where they dry out faster.

Edited February 9, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[PalmatierMeg]

Washies are not tropical. Robusta is supposedly hardy to 18F though I wouldn't suggest you try with a potted on. They are easy, fast growing and cheap so good to experiment on. I lose palms all the time and I quit crying about it after the winter of 2010 when I lost 30+ species. They are plants, not children, and new ones enter our spheres. Right now, I'm hankering for one of those new Areca species with the huge seeds.

[RobustaEnvirons]

15 hours ago, Pando said:

While I've mentioned previously that Washies grow here in a completely dry conditions in asphalt cracks under a blazing sun, getting only occasional moisture from our infrequent rain, growing one in a pot indoors is likely a different matter. It's tricky to grow palms indoors, and some species do better than others. Washy is probably not one of them, unfortunately. 

Sorry to hear you've lost your palm. That's terrible. 

I think I just need to become better at understanding when to water and how much to water. I love W.Robusta, it's my favorite palm. I like others but, its my favorite. I plan on trying different ones (thanks again for the seeds) sometime soon. 

My goal has always been to try to grow a washy, potted indoors. I figured as long as I meet its needs it could thrive. Apparently, it's not easy with washy (as you've stated). 

I've seen others successfully grow them indoors. Pal Meir has grown one quite large indoors. My washy were doing okay until I messed up. If I had just watered it on time, it probably wouldn't have lost it's leaf. 

With palms it seems the learning never ends. I'm always trying to improve my palm skills. 

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[Pando]

Good luck Richard. Didn't the leaf start yellowing shortly after the palm was excessively trimmed? I remember a thread about it some time ago. It's possible that this caused injury to the growing point and rot has set in. I've lost several palms to this, and now I won't touch the old leaf bases until they naturally fall off. Cutting off old leaves at the base of the petiole is fine, but forcefully tearing them off the trunk is usually not going to end well.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Pando

[RobustaEnvirons]

28 minutes ago, Pando said:

Good luck Richard. Didn't the leaf start yellowing shortly after the palm was excessively trimmed? I remember a thread about it some time ago. It's possible that this caused injury to the growing point and rot has set in. I've lost several palms to this, and now I won't touch the old leaf bases until they naturally fall off. Cutting off old leaves at the base of the petiole is fine, but forcefully tearing them off the trunk is usually not going to end well.

You don't think it'll make it. I did post about that a while ago, your right.  

The leave only started turning yellow around Feb 1st. Its been doing pretty good up till that point. It went downhill from that point forward. 

Now, my other smaller Robusta had a leaf that started turning yellow on the tip, I posted about that a few weeks ago too. That one is actually doing great. 

But, this larger Robusta hasn't had issues like this since Feb 1st. That large leaf has always hung in there.

 Well, I guess its probably doomed then. I hadn't thought about rot! I should've never peeled off the bark. Man was I stupid. I should've just done like you said and trimmed off the leaf and left the little bit on there, not peeled off the whole thing. 

When it dies I'll just buy another one I guess. I have to remember all this stuff so I don't make the same mistakes again.  

I guess I'll see what happens in the next few weeks or so. If it does or not. It almost seems like I should probably just pitch it now and just buy another and start over. I don't know. 

That's a bummer. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Don't give up on it until it is totally brown. If it croaks get another or 3 or 4. And you have germinated seeds that will be larger than that palm by next fall. I've found that most palmate palms make poor long term houseplants. When I moved to FL I stopped keeping houseplants at all. Pal Meir has perfected his system out of necessity (he lives in Germany; no palms survive winter outdoors there that I know of). He's been working with them for years and probably done much reading and study, so he knows his stuff. If I still could see well enough for serious academic reading I would have earned the equivalent of a Bachelors in Palm Studies by now. You have a long way to go to achieve his expertise so don't give up on the journey too soon.

[Laaz]

8 hours ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

I have it in Miracle Grow "Cactus, Palm, and Succulent" Potting mix.

That stuff is terrible, it's got the texture of saw dust. Change it to Miracle-Gro garden soil & keep it moist not wet...

[RobustaEnvirons]

2 hours ago, Laaz said:

That stuff is terrible, it's got the texture of saw dust. Change it to Miracle-Gro garden soil & keep it moist not wet...

Ok, I could do that. But, I do have a few concerns about a few things. 

If I change out the soil I worry that it may go into shock. I actually talked about this in a separate thread.

I'm sure it's probably stressed due to both Winter and having now lost its large leaf (which was it's primary method of making food). Additionally, I've been told they don't tolerate their roots handled. 

Another thing is, I always thought the soil I use is pretty good. When I pot my plants I use the MG soil, but I also mix in a decent amount of MG Perlite and also Sand. By the time I'm done its almost like a new potting medium. It drains pretty well. 

I use this soil for my other Washingtonia Robusta plants and they are doing pretty well. So far I have 2 seedlings (that spouted from seeds), 1 older Robusta, and this large Robusta. I've used this soil and etc with all these and they haven't seemed to mind. I'm no professional, but this medium that I've mixed up has worked so far. 

I think possibly I might play it safe and keep it in it's current soil mix. If it dies, I'll go with the MG Garden Soil (as you've suggested) on my next replacement W. Robusta. 

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

5 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Don't give up on it until it is totally brown. If it croaks get another or 3 or 4. And you have germinated seeds that will be larger than that palm by next fall. I've found that most palmate palms make poor long term houseplants. When I moved to FL I stopped keeping houseplants at all. Pal Meir has perfected his system out of necessity (he lives in Germany; no palms survive winter outdoors there that I know of). He's been working with them for years and probably done much reading and study, so he knows his stuff. If I still could see well enough for serious academic reading I would have earned the equivalent of a Bachelors in Palm Studies by now. You have a long way to go to achieve his expertise so don't give up on the journey too soon.

You're right PalmatierMeg I totally agree with you! . 

I won't give up on it until it's completely gone brown. It's far from that right now. It's got that center shoot of vibrant green leaf. With time that'll hopefully grow larger and also start working on it's second leaf, if it does indeed survive that is.

Pal Meir really does know his stuff! I couldn't believe it when I looked at all his many palm photos. Impressive indeed. He's grown full grown palms- still in a pot- indoors. One picture shows them out on a balcony or something also. 

His palms thrive and seem to grow so well indoors. Germany has a similar climate to Toledo Ohio I think. Toledo Ohio is zone 6b. We get harsh winters with frost, snow, icey winds, and etc. No palm except for maybe Trachycarpus Fortunei and Needle Palm will survive our winters here I would imagine. And I think even Trachycarpus Fortunei would probably need winter protection.

As I've mentioned previously, I don't plan on living in Toledo Ohio forever, I'm planning on my move to Orlando Florida in 2017. I can explore more palms down there over time. One day I'll hopefully be able to grow things outdoors (if and when I ever get my own home).

 I can only hope to achieve Pal Meir's level of skill and knowledge on Palms though. He's a wizard of the palms, lol.

I enjoy houseplants though, I think they allow a more intimate connection with palms then having a palm grow outdoors. I know that probably sounds kinda silly though 

I'll keep on my palm journeys! I try to just keep learning, experimenting, and growing palms. Don't worry, I won't give up.

Edited February 10, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[knell]

REnvirons:

I had a similar misconception about w. robusta as you concerning their habitat.

Although they are in the desert, they concentrate along water runoffs and areas with deep seasonal saturation. If i were a millionaire I would fly us to Baja so I could show you, but they really want a deep seasonal water flow with amazing drainage.

Study Pal Meir, and learn his ways. When he insists on studying the habitat, do the research. Everything is important from drainage to water and sunlight... even if it can grow in SoCal sidewalks, it really wants a very specific set of environmental settings (which SoCal sidewalks replicate - temporarily).

[Phoenikakias]

Naturally sprouted seedlings in the ground produce a veeeeery deep root system and their  growing point is initially also quite deely buried. Notwithstanding the ability of transplant, it produces a deep and extended root system.

[RobustaEnvirons]

4 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Naturally sprouted seedlings in the ground produce a veeeeery deep root system and their  growing point is initially also quite deely buried. Notwithstanding the ability of transplant, it produces a deep and extended root system.

That makes a lot of sense though. When I re-potted 2 of my baby (freshly germinated) seedlings recently, I noticed they each had a "tap" root that went all the way to the very bottom of the pot. It went all the way down there, I had to dig the whole thing up. I had thought I would only have to dig a little ways down, but soon discovered they each had that root. 

This is exactly what you're talking about I think. So if in nature it's supposed to draw water from deep below the ground level, and I only have it in a pot, I can understand the challenges for it. It's not a really replication of nature. 

Would it make sense to water the Robusta from the bottom rather than dump a whole lot of water into the top? If the root extends to the bottom of pot, I could just fill up the overflow drainage tray (for the pot) and that way the root could draw water from that. I don't think that would be a whole lot of water though, since the tray is only meant to capture overflow water. It's quite limited capacity.

Very interesting stuff. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[Laaz]

 

You are way over thinking this, Washingtonia's transplant really easy... You should be worrying more about how you're going to cut a hole in your ceiling when it needs more space...  

 

[RobustaEnvirons]

3 minutes ago, Laaz said:

 

You are way over thinking this, Washingtonia's transplant really easy... You should be worrying more about how you're going to cut a hole in your ceiling when it needs more space...  

 

Lol, I think you've got a point there. . They do grow tall and fast. I guess I'll just cross that bridge when I get there. Haha. 

[Laaz]

Those are two of mine out front. Planted 11 years ago from one gallon size.

[RobustaEnvirons]

17 minutes ago, Laaz said:

Those are two of mine out front. Planted 11 years ago from one gallon size.

Wow, they sure are big! But, they are in their native environment, so I guess they can just go to town. I don't expect such rapid growth and success with my Robustas since they're potted and not in California or anything. 

But,I know what you mean though. Maybe mine will get that big, that fast too. It's almost scary how fast they grow. Lol. Pal Meir's 9 years old Robusta was about a half as tall as those I believe (in his photos). 

It was fully trunking and everything. It looked in the picture as if he simply had it in a bucket or something, nothing fancy. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[Pal Meir]

3 hours ago, Laaz said:

You are way over thinking this, Washingtonia's transplant really easy... You should be worrying more about how you're going to cut a hole in your ceiling when it needs more space...  

Exactly THAT was my problem with my potted Washis after a couple of years!

[RobustaEnvirons]

On 2/9/2016, 2:53:13, Pando said:

Good luck Richard. Didn't the leaf start yellowing shortly after the palm was excessively trimmed? I remember a thread about it some time ago. It's possible that this caused injury to the growing point and rot has set in. I've lost several palms to this, and now I won't touch the old leaf bases until they naturally fall off. Cutting off old leaves at the base of the petiole is fine, but forcefully tearing them off the trunk is usually not going to end well.

Looks like you were right Pando.  I'm pretty sure now that it's declining. I looked at it today and it appears the leaf is constricting within itself and getting sickly looking. I don't know. It's still green, just not like it once was. 

I sat there and compared it to pictures I have of it just a few days ago, and its different for sure. I'll let it sit there until its finally dead, and then I'll just get a new one.

Meg was right, I need to not get so worked up when stuff dies. 

Well, I admit I probably had more hope than I should have had. 

Oh, well I guess. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[Jdiaz31089]

Whatever happened to this sickly washingtonia? Just curious if it pulled through or not. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

1 hour ago, Jdiaz31089 said:

Whatever happened to this sickly washingtonia? Just curious if it pulled through or not. 

Unfortunately, it died shortly after I wrote the last post. It appears that pulling off the bark like that had a profound negative effect on the palm. I never would have guessed but that's the way it all ended. Pando was right on the money when he mentioned that it was probably doomed. I did everything that I could to try to save it but it just declined quickly. Oh well, I had my other Washy also, so it wasn't the end of the world for me. Also, I acquired fresh Washy seeds from Pando that I later germinated (last Jan & Feb). With these fresh seeds I was able to gain a lot of practice growing, potting-up, and managing 5 Washingtonia Robusta Seedlings. I gave 4 away to family members and I kept 1 for myself.  

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

You live, you learn, you grow.  Def don't get too worked up when a plant dies. Yeah, it sucks, but it happens.  We have all made mistakes and we have all killed our fair share of plants and palms.  Ive killed more than a few in my lifetime.  When you get knocked down, you get back up and try again and try to learn more and do better next time.  Palms can be particularly challenging, especially species that grow to full trees and are not that suited to indoor growing. Have you ever thought of trying a species that is known for doing great indoors?  Im just wondering.  I know for the longest time I just overlooked species like  Chamaedorea  or rahpis.   Now I love them just as much as any other palms.  Sure I still have my favorites that I covet, but until I live in a climate where I can grow them easily and properly, Ill stick with what works for now.  I Hope you grow to appreciate others just as much. You wont be disappointed.  Best of lick with the new ones.  The seem to be coming along nicely!