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Mr. Coconut Palm

Northenmost and Southernmost FRUITING Conconut Palms

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Mr. Coconut Palm

Hi Everyone,

I am curious, as I am sure many of you are as to where the Northernmost and Southernmost FRUITING Coconut Palms are.  So go ahead and submit your responses, and be sure to include any photos of them if you can. 

Thanks,

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm

Oh, come on. No responses?

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Cluster

Hm well as they trim them on Madeira island I can't say for sure, I could link here the biggest ones I found early August (seemed just so slightly smaller than tennis balls) just 3 days before they cut them, since it was August I am sure they would become 100% mature. I think with some protection you can make them fruit in not so favorable conditions, Walt has shown us :)

Edited by Cluster

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Mr. Coconut Palm
8 hours ago, Cluster said:

Hm well as they trim them on Madeira island I can't say for sure, I could link here the biggest ones I found early August (seemed just so slightly smaller than tennis balls) just 3 days before they cut them, since it was August I am sure they would become 100% mature. I think with some protection you can make them fruit in not so favorable conditions, Walt has shown us :)

Hey Pedro,

Post the photos again here.  They fruit here in Corpus Christi neat the water, and this is certainly not ideal growing conditions for them.

John

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RedRabbit
35 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Probably Bermuda 

" The climate allows for the growth of other palms such as royal palm (Roystonea spp.) and coconut palm (Cocos nucifera), although the lack of very warm temperatures does not usually allow coconuts to fruit properly. Bermuda is the farthest north location in the Northern Hemisphere where coconut palms will grow naturally.[5] " Wikipedia

Not sure if Bermuda counts if that statement is accurate.

 

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Xenon
6 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

" The climate allows for the growth of other palms such as royal palm (Roystonea spp.) and coconut palm (Cocos nucifera), although the lack of very warm temperatures does not usually allow coconuts to fruit properly. Bermuda is the farthest north location in the Northern Hemisphere where coconut palms will grow naturally.[5] " Wikipedia

Not sure if Bermuda counts if that statement is accurate.

 

Fruiting coconuts in Bermuda

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Cluster

Here you go John, hard to say what size they were without getting close hehe:

 

 

doml5g.jpg

200d4pi.jpg

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Mr. Coconut Palm
2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

" The climate allows for the growth of other palms such as royal palm (Roystonea spp.) and coconut palm (Cocos nucifera), although the lack of very warm temperatures does not usually allow coconuts to fruit properly. Bermuda is the farthest north location in the Northern Hemisphere where coconut palms will grow naturally.[5] " Wikipedia

Not sure if Bermuda counts if that statement is accurate.

 

Tiberius,

Though I haven't been to Bermuda, I have seen plenty of photos of mature Coconut Palms full of large nuts in Bermuda.  I think the person who wrote that for Wikipedia doesn't specialize in palms, and certainly not Coconut Palms like I do.

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
2 hours ago, Cluster said:

Here you go John, hard to say what size they were without getting close hehe:

 

 

doml5g.jpg

200d4pi.jpg

Hey Pedro,

Thanks.  I think they are about the size of a golf ball, maybe slightly larger.  I think they would definitely mature and ripen if they would just STOP cutting them and the leave off their palms!  Since you have a cooler tropical climate, I think the nuts would take longer to mature than the would in Florida or the Caribbean or in the Canaries for that matter, but I think they would still eventually mature.  In normally warmer tropical climates, coconuts take about 11 to 13 months to ripen depending on the variety, but in your climate, I think they would ripen in about 15 to 17 months.  It will be interesting if any of you over there actually get some to fully develop and ripen on the trees then once they naturally drop, if you they are viable and you can get some good healthy palm sprouts from them.  I can't wait for those photos, LOL!

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
Just now, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Hey Pedro,

Thanks.  I think they are about the size of a golf ball, maybe slightly larger.  I think they would definitely mature and ripen if they would just STOP cutting them and the leave off their palms!  Since you have a cooler tropical climate, I think the nuts would take longer to mature than the would in Florida or the Caribbean or in the Canaries for that matter, but I think they would still eventually mature.  In normally warmer tropical climates, coconuts take about 11 to 13 months to ripen depending on the variety, but in your climate, I think they would ripen in about 15 to 17 months.  It will be interesting if any of you over there actually get some to fully develop and ripen on the trees then once they naturally drop, if you they are viable and you can get some good healthy palm sprouts from them.  I can't wait for those photos, LOL!

John

Sorry for the typos.  It's getting late and I am getting tired.  Time for this tired COCONUT to go to bed!

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Cluster

Hello again John, 

 

yes they were definitely bigger than golf balls when I was there in person, talking about the 2nd picture with the more mature ones:). Most of the people here on palmtalk seem to agree they can mature on the Island, but before they got to be known everyone said it was impossible, anyway as we have seen they always get trimmed:(.

This is our meteo forecast for Funchal, we are in the coldest month of the year:bxEDOIF.jpg

 

The southwest is even warmer, need to get a place to plant coconuts there:)

I will get the pictures today/this weekend:)

 

Ps: Would be nice if a Mod could change the thread tittle and replace the word conconut with coconut for future reference:).

Edited by Cluster

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Palmaceae
15 hours ago, Cluster said:

Here you go John, hard to say what size they were without getting close hehe:

 

 

doml5g.jpg

200d4pi.jpg

Sure has a white fly problem!

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Cluster

Yes they have, what is weird is that the Dwarf one we have there does not suffer from this nearly as much :bemused:, must be the only place where the Malayan is the tough coconut palm!:)

Edited by Cluster

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Zeeth

Whitefly hits coconuts really oddly. In my garden, where I have a row of Maypan, Orange Hawaiian tall, Jamaican tall, Green Hawaiian tall, and Panama tall, my Orange Hawaiian tall and Panama tall are heavily affected, the Jamaican tall is moderately affected, and the Maypan and green Hawaiian tall are unaffected. The trees are within feet of each other. 

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Cluster

Hm Maypan and Malayan, maybe we are onto something here is the Malayan gene resistant to whitefly somewhat? 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Hello again John, 

 

yes they were definitely bigger than golf balls when I was there in person, talking about the 2nd picture with the more mature ones:). Most of the people here on palmtalk seem to agree they can mature on the Island, but before they got to be known everyone said it was impossible, anyway as we have seen they always get trimmed:(.

This is our meteo forecast for Funchal, we are in the coldest month of the year:bxEDOIF.jpg

 

The southwest is even warmer, need to get a place to plant coconuts there:)

I will get the pictures today/this weekend:)

 

Ps: Would be nice if a Mod could change the thread tittle and replace the word conconut with coconut for future reference:).

Sorry for the recent typos.  I have been staying up too late on Palmtalk lately, and when I get really tired, even during the day from staying up too late at night, I make a lot of errors.

John

P.S.  Since I never got the hang of the Metric System, what do the above temps translate to in F?  What are your normal highs and lows in Madeira in Dec., Jan., and Feb.?  Also what is your normal lowest low temp there each winter in F?

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Mr. Coconut Palm
1 hour ago, Palmaceae said:

Sure has a white fly problem!

Randy,

White fly is something I fortunately haven't had to deal with.  It looks like scale to me.  How do white flies differ since it looks the same as scale?

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

Whitefly hits coconuts really oddly. In my garden, where I have a row of Maypan, Orange Hawaiian tall, Jamaican tall, Green Hawaiian tall, and Panama tall, my Orange Hawaiian tall and Panama tall are heavily affected, the Jamaican tall is moderately affected, and the Maypan and green Hawaiian tall are unaffected. The trees are within feet of each other. 

Keith,

Do you have any Malayans?  If so, how are they affected?

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
49 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Hm Maypan and Malayan, maybe we are onto something here is the Malayan gene resistant to whitefly somewhat? 

Pedro,

It might be, just like it is more resistant to Lethal Yellowing.  Fortunately, white fly is something I haven't had to deal with here.  In the photos it looks like scale to me, but I am sure it is not.  How do you recognize white fly and differentiate if from scale?

John

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Cluster

20 c = 68 f, 14 c = 57+ f, 23 c = 73.4 f . The coldest month February has around 57 F min, 68 F max for Funchal, southwest will reach around 2 F more than this.

It would be very interesting to know from Keith's big collection of coconuts how do Malayans fare. I also do not know if it is scale, I just thought it would be whiteflies as I have seen it here on the forums associated with cocos. 

Edited by Cluster

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Zeeth
19 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Keith,

Do you have any Malayans?  If so, how are they affected?

John

Nope, the location of my garden is outside of the growing range of Malayans. I've tried green and yellow in the past with less than stellar results, so I haven't bothered trying again. 

 

I'm also growing Criollo tall, Nawassi tall, Fiji Dwarf, Red Spicata dwarf, Tahiti red dwarf, and an unknown tall type from Southeast Asia, but those are all are too small to have problems yet. 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
1 hour ago, Cluster said:

20 c = 68 f, 14 c = 57+ f, 23 c = 73.4 f . The coldest month February has around 57 F min, 68 F max for Funchal, southwest will reach around 2 F more than this.

It would be very interesting to know from Keith's big collection of coconuts how do Malayans fare. I also do not know if it is scale, I just thought it would be whiteflies as I have seen it here on the forums associated with cocos. 

Pedro,

That gives you an average of 62.5F in February, which should give you a corresponding soil temp, which is fine for tall varieties and I think adequate for Malayans too, even for mature nut production. What are your normal high/low in your warmest month?  And what is your normal annual average rainfall in inches? 

John

P.S.  The Malayan Dwarf at the marina appears to be a Green Malayan, and they are known to be more robust and a little bit more cold hardy than the Golden and Yellow Malayans.

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Mr. Coconut Palm
1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

Nope, the location of my garden is outside of the growing range of Malayans. I've tried green and yellow in the past with less than stellar results, so I haven't bothered trying again. 

 

I'm also growing Criollo tall, Nawassi tall, Fiji Dwarf, Red Spicata dwarf, Tahiti red dwarf, and an unknown tall type from Southeast Asia, but those are all are too small to have problems yet. 

Keith,

I have heard that the Fiji Dwarf is probably 100% resistant to Lethal Yellowing, but may be the least cold hardy.  The people that own River's End Nursery in Bayview, about 15 miles northeast of Brownsville had a couple of them planted in the ground at their place a few years ago, and they lost both of them in a relatively normal winter there, even though their Malayan Dwarfs did just fine that winter and are mature now.  Have you had any cold injury on yours?

John

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Cluster

There is not warmest month hehe, they are 2 (share the exact same temperatures!), August and September, 68 min and 79.5+ high for Funchal. The temperatures do not change much on the island between the coldest and the warmest, there is something on that island that might be important, its nights barely have any wind, everything is still 90% of the time, coconuts might enjoy that. I have heard people saying Madeira nights are warmer than the Canaries during the summer (which is of course false! if we compare both south coasts), that perception might have to do with the lack of wind.

As for the Malayan coconut, yes it is the green but still they are said to be very sensitive, more than the talls and the talls look worse (maybe because of more trimming of course, I can't judge based only on what my eyes tell me, knowing very well how they are treated there:) ).

Edited by Cluster

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Zeeth
13 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Keith,

I have heard that the Fiji Dwarf is probably 100% resistant to Lethal Yellowing, but may be the least cold hardy.  The people that own River's End Nursery in Bayview, about 15 miles northeast of Brownsville had a couple of them planted in the ground at their place a few years ago, and they lost both of them in a relatively normal winter there, even though their Malayan Dwarfs did just fine that winter and are mature now.  Have you had any cold injury on yours?

John

This is it's first winter with no protection, so I'm not sure how low it'll go without damage. It doesn't appear to have gotten any damage at 34˚, but I'm not sure what would happen to it in a bad freeze like we sometimes get. I've heard mixed reports on their hardiness (both good and bad), so I thought I'd give it a try. 

Red Spicata dwarf is supposed to have some drought tolerance, so I'm trying to see if this carries over into cold tolerance, and the Tahiti red dwarf seems to be closely related (they look nearly identical to me except for the spicate inflorescences in the RS), which is why I'm trying the two. 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

Nope, the location of my garden is outside of the growing range of Malayans. I've tried green and yellow in the past with less than stellar results, so I haven't bothered trying again. 

 

I'm also growing Criollo tall, Nawassi tall, Fiji Dwarf, Red Spicata dwarf, Tahiti red dwarf, and an unknown tall type from Southeast Asia, but those are all are too small to have problems yet. 

I know the feeling.  After having lost 4 of them in my yard ( 3 Greens and 1 Golden) and one that I donated (a 5ft. tall Green Malayan) to Texas A&M University Corpus Christi because they have a nice 10A microclimate here with lots of large 10A trees, I have pretty much given up on them in Corpus Christi, but I did go ahead and plant a Yellow Malayan a few weeks ago that just happened to sprout from a nut I collected off of the beach at Padre Island last year, just for grins since I love the color of them.  Besides since it is from a beach nut, I don't have much invested in it if I lose it.  Ironically, it is doing better now than the Jamaican Tall I got from Melbourne Beach, which seems to be succumbing to the chilly nights and one light frost we have had.  The Malayans do seem to do pretty well in the Lower RGV from Harlingen to Brownsville and South Padre, but are less reliable in the mid and upper valley.

John

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Zeeth
1 minute ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I know the feeling.  After having lost 4 of them in my yard ( 3 Greens and 1 Golden) and one that I donated (a 5ft. tall Green Malayan) to Texas A&M University Corpus Christi because they have a nice 10A microclimate here with lots of large 10A trees, I have pretty much given up on them in Corpus Christi, but I did go ahead and plant a Yellow Malayan a few weeks ago that just happened to sprout from a nut I collected off of the beach at Padre Island last year, just for grins since I love the color of them.  Besides since it is from a beach nut, I don't have much invested in it if I lose it.  Ironically, it is doing better now than the Jamaican Tall I got from Melbourne Beach, which seems to be succumbing to the chilly nights and one light frost we have had.  The Malayans do seem to do pretty well in the Lower RGV from Harlingen to Brownsville and South Padre, but are less reliable in the mid and upper valley.

John

Hopefully your Jamaican tall pulls through. They seem more susceptible to root disturbances at a young age than other varieties I've grown. I've had 2 die from transplant shock. 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
12 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

This is it's first winter with no protection, so I'm not sure how low it'll go without damage. It doesn't appear to have gotten any damage at 34˚, but I'm not sure what would happen to it in a bad freeze like we sometimes get. I've heard mixed reports on their hardiness (both good and bad), so I thought I'd give it a try. 

Red Spicata dwarf is supposed to have some drought tolerance, so I'm trying to see if this carries over into cold tolerance, and the Tahiti red dwarf seems to be closely related (they look nearly identical to me except for the spicate inflorescences), which is why I'm trying the two. 

What size is your Fiji Dwarf? 

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Zeeth
2 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

What size is your Fiji Dwarf? 

IMG_4629.thumb.JPG.a8444585ba2641e92cc1b

This picture was taken around Christmas. I'm thinking about planting it in it's current spot during spring break. 

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Mr. Coconut Palm
Just now, Zeeth said:

Hopefully your Jamaican tall pulls through. They seem more susceptible to root disturbances at a young age than other varieties I've grown. I've had 2 die from transplant shock. 

Wow!  Thanks, I hope it pulls through too.  I got if from Alex over in Melbourne Beach about a year ago, since the Jamaicans are the second most cold hardy we have here in the Western Hemisphere.  It was 3ft. tall and looked fine in the 7 gal. pot I had it in, but about a week after I planted it, its most recent open leaf that had looked great started to curl up and is starting to gradually brown up.  The new spear though is slowly continuing to grow and open.  So hopefully it will pull through.  Randy (Palmaceae) has lost one or two that same way he told me the other day, with the leaves just starting to curl up and die shortly after being planted.  I always thought aside from susceptibility to LY that they were tough as nails.  Ironically, the 3.5ft. tall Maypan planted adjacent to it seems to be doing better.  I also got it from Alex last year.

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Mr. Coconut Palm
3 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

IMG_4629.thumb.JPG.a8444585ba2641e92cc1b

This picture was taken around Christmas. I'm thinking about planting it in it's current spot during spring break. 

Looks GREAT!  So you haven't wrapped it or brought it in on any nights this winter?  Where did you get it and all your exotic varieties from?

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Mr. Coconut Palm
24 minutes ago, Cluster said:

There is not warmest month hehe, they are 2 (share the exact same temperatures!), August and September, 68 min and 79.5+ high for Funchal. The temperatures do not change much on the island between the coldest and the warmest, there is something on that island that might be important, its nights barely have any wind, everything is still 90% of the time, coconuts might enjoy that. I have heard people saying Madeira nights are warmer than the Canaries during the summer (which is of course false! if we compare both south coasts), that perception might have to do with the lack of wind.

As for the Malayan coconut, yes it is the green but still they are said to be very sensitive, more than the talls and the talls look worse (maybe because of more trimming of course, I can't judge based only on what my eyes tell me, knowing very well how they are treated there:) ).

Wow, that is a cool tropical climate, but sufficient for Coconut Palm growth, albeit more slowly than in warmer tropical climates.  Those temps give you an average of 73.7F for your warmest months, and thus a corresponding soil temp.  I think you are right, that they prime spot to plant them would be on the Southwest side of the island, but with temps like your averages they should do fine on most of the island, especially the south side.  Those still summer nights would be nice.  I have never been to Hawaii, but have heard due to the wind coming off the cool 70's F water, you need a jacket or at least a windbreaker there much of the year, especially at night. 

The Malayans are more cold sensitive than the talls, but out of the three Malayan varieties, it is the Green that is more robust, slightly faster growing, and slightly more cold hardy than the other two.  By the way, what is you average annual rainfall there in inches, and is it pretty much distributed throughout the year, or do you have a rainy season and a dry season?

John

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Zeeth

I actually live about an hour away from my garden while I'm in school, so nothing gets protection unless I take it to my apartment. 

My Fiji Dwarf and Tahiti red dwarf came from from Bill Chang in Hawaii.

My Nawassi tall and Red Spicata dwarf came from Fairchild.

My Jamaican tall came from one of the tall ones at Kopsick (which were donated to the garden by Paul Drummond, an expert on coconuts). I've also got one I sprouted from the tallest Jamaican tall on Anna Maria Island, but that one's still young.

My Orange petiole Hawaiian talls came from Gaia Yoga nursery in Puna, Hawaii as "Select Tall" sprouts.

My green petiole Hawaiian tall came from Garrin Fullington in Hilo. The tree it came from was a "wild" type Hawaiian Tall he grew from a nut collected from a (then) undeveloped beach area near Hilo. He said it was the most vigorous coconut he has, growing 35 ft in 16 years.

My Criollo talls came from coconuts I bought at Publix imported from the Dominican Republic. I read about how the Atlantic tall type coconuts never suffered from LY, and 90% of the coconuts exported from the country belonged to the variety, so I bought two coconuts from there that looked the same as the Kopsick coconuts look when the husk is removed. 

My Panama tall came from Dave Romney.

I also sprouted a coconut I bought at a local Indian market that was imported from somewhere in Southeast Asia.

 

I've also got a Maypan looking coconut I sprouted from a tree growing wild in some Mangroves in Sarasota. I'm actually pretty impressed with that one, as it's seen as low as 32˚ with frost without spotting. I'm going to keep an eye on that one.

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Cluster

No one uses Jackets during the long summer (july to october), only an odd day I would say, the still nights are during all the year. It only rains like 24.693 inches, the problem is July August and September are dry a reason why I think the coconuts look better there during winter :bummed:. If left alone I would guess the northern coast could suit them well, it does rain more there and the temperatures are not that much lower with the lows being the same.

For reference Ponta do sol (one of the southwest zones) in the warmest months will have 82.4 + high and 69 min.

I will tell you a very sad story about a coconut, which I heard by chances this last summer. So I went to a house in a privileged warm area (used for most banana exportation and tropical fruits) in which the owner had 14 different types of Mango and 16 of banana. I had to ask him, why do you not try a coconut to complement?! Apparently that was the plan, he brought one from Brazil, but he had to ask a friend to take care of it while he built the house or something. The coconut went to the northern coast near the sea, where it rooted with no issues and started to grow, some months later he asked the friend to take the coconut to the house in the southwest coast, apparently the friend ripped the roots of the coconut and soon it died in its new home with the best climate possible:(.

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Mr. Coconut Palm
5 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I actually live about an hour away from my garden while I'm in school, so nothing gets protection unless I take it to my apartment. 

My Fiji Dwarf and Tahiti red dwarf came from from Bill Chang in Hawaii.

My Nawassi tall and Red Spicata dwarf came from Fairchild.

My Jamaican tall came from one of the tall ones at Kopsick (which were donated to the garden by Paul Drummond, an expert on coconuts). I've also got one I sprouted from the tallest Jamaican tall on Anna Maria Island, but that one's still young.

My Orange petiole Hawaiian talls came from Gaia Yoga nursery in Puna, Hawaii as "Select Tall" sprouts.

My green petiole Hawaiian tall came from Garrin in Hilo. The tree it came from was a "wild" type Hawaiian Tall he grew from a nut collected from a (then) undeveloped beach area near Hilo. He said it was the most vigorous coconut he has, growing 35 ft in 16 years.

My Criollo talls came from coconuts I bought at Publix imported from the Dominican Republic. I read about how the Atlantic tall type coconuts never suffered from LY, and 90% of the coconuts exported from the country belonged to the variety, so I bought two coconuts from there that looked the same as the Kopsick coconuts look when the husk is removed. 

My Panama tall came from Dave Romney.

I also sprouted a coconut I bought at a local Indian market that was imported from somewhere in Southeast Asia.

 

I've also got a Maypan looking coconut I sprouted from a tree growing wild in some Mangroves in Sarasota. I'm actually pretty impressed with that one, as it's seen as low as 32˚ with frost without spotting. I'm going to keep an eye on that one.

Keith,

Didn't you say a while back that your Green Hawaiian Tall made it through 27F with no problem?  If so, I really need to get one or two of those, if your friend would send them to me.  As I recall, you said they do better than other varieties too when the weather is chilly and damp for prolonged periods like what we have over here sometimes in the winter on this side of the Gulf.  I also have a Panama Tall from Alex in Melbourne that I want to plant in the backyard later once we have a palapa hut built adjacent to where I want to plant it.  Out of all my varieties, it is my Panama Tall and my little Mexican Tall (my most recent sprout that sprouted back in October that I planted last Sunday) that have the least spotting.

John

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Cluster

Keith that Fiji looks wonderful, has always been one of my favorite varieties of coconut palms! 

Edited by Cluster

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Zeeth

Yeah, I had my green Hawaiian tall and Jamaican tall through 27˚ in December 2010. The HT had about 25% damage and the JT had about 50% damage (the damage on both was mostly spotting, neither had total leaf death or spear issues).

Garrin hasn't been too active on Palmtalk lately. He posted recently that he has had some health issues, so I'm not sure if he'd be able to gather coconuts to send. I'd be happy to send you some once mine starts fruiting though :)

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Mr. Coconut Palm
11 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

Yeah, I had my green Hawaiian tall and Jamaican tall through 27˚ in December 2010. The HT had about 25% damage and the JT had about 50% damage (the damage on both was mostly spotting, neither had total leaf death or spear issues).

Garrin hasn't been too active on Palmtalk lately. He posted recently that he has had some health issues, so I'm not sure if he'd be able to gather coconuts to send. I'd be happy to send you some once mine starts fruiting though :)

You got it.  I'd be happy to take you up on the offer, and any viable nuts you Jamaican produces too.  If I could ever find a reliable source for Mexican Talls over here, I would be happy to send you some nuts or sprouts, but there just isn't a reliable source for them here yet.   There are some grown in Brownsville and throughout the Valley that are big and mature, but they just don't keep them watered enough to get regular nut production.  We get a few pure Mexican Tall sprouts from beach nuts we collect, but most of the sprouts are Maymex hybrids and some pure Malayans like my Yellow Malayan I've got.

John

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