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TimHopper

Jubutyagrus

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swolf

Interesting observation Dick.  I wonder if Nigel is seeing the same thing (I believe he also has both crosses -- one XJubutyagrus with Queen as "mother").  

Similarly, you've posted that JubaeaXQueen is growing very slowly so far, while Jubaea combinations with slower growth palms like Butia and Parajubaea result in a fast hybrid.  The contrast is surpising.  

Steve

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Nigel

(swolf @ Dec. 15 2007,09:17)

QUOTE
Interesting observation Dick.  I wonder if Nigel is seeing the same thing (I believe he also has both crosses -- one XJubutyagrus with Queen as "mother").  

Similarly, you've posted that JubaeaXQueen is growing very slowly so far, while Jubaea combinations with slower growth palms like Butia and Parajubaea result in a fast hybrid.  The contrast is surpising.  

Steve

Steve, I echo Dicks comments , I bought 10 from patrick altogether and sold the ones more obviously crosses , and was left with 5 that resembled queens with thinner leaves. I suspect 2 or 3 are queens , and 2 are not.

The one obvious plant remaining that is definitely NOT a queen is painfully slow growing and clearly needs heat that I cannot provide. The (JxB)xS on the other hand is romping away.

A better person to ask is Charles, who had one of each from me and can probably provide better pics and has the heat to make the darned things grow.

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PalmGuyWC

Gents,

I find this entire process of hybridizing the cocoids very facinating. I feel very fortunate to watch Patrick, as I get sort of a bird's eye view, since most of the palms he's working with are in my garden. He's very maticulious about the way he goes about it, particularly avoiding contamination from unwanted pollen. I think he has the process about as refined as anyone could do it.

Some of the results is surprising, and things don't always turn out the way we expect they would. Last year he got an amazing seed set on a Syagrus using Jubaea pollen. In fact he got so many seeds to set, that he didn't trust the results, and he thought there must have been some kind of contamination. Thus far, he says the seedlings from this cross look very much like Syagrus, but I'm begining to feel the seed bareing tree carrys over more traits to the seedlings than does the father.

This is a slow process because it takes 2 or 3 years until the adult characteristics show up on the seedlings, and with the hybrids, there seems to be some variation, so you are never quite sure until they grow up.

The one Jubaea X syagrus cross that I have has 4 small stubby strap leaves, and it's very dark green, and it's hardly grown for me at all. It doesn't look like a Jubaea at all so it's definately a hybrid. Maybe like Jubaeas it's in the process of forming roots, so maybe it will take off next summer.

Dick

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merrill

QUOTING swolf:

Post Number: 199

swolf  

Posted on: Dec. 14, 2007,09:50          

Thanks Merrill.  How tall are your XJubutyagrus now?

With your XJubutyagrus still growing, their final height is still unknown.  While variable (and impacted by the queen "father"), one would think the average XJubutyagrus would be somewhat larger/taller than the average XButyagrus, given the larger/taller "mother".      

The only thing about Parajubaea that I don't like is the possible loss of the clean trunk seen on your XJubutyagrus.  It is interesting that JXB and Dick's BXP grow so fast -- hybrid vigor can apparently substitute for queen speed!

Steve  END QUOTE

Hi, Steve:

Sorry it took so long to get back to you!  My personal experience here in North  Florida has been that all palms grow more slowly in height as they age, even W. robusta.  An anteresting  possible exception is the double row of Roystonea  oleraceae  at the Rio de Janeiro Botanical Garden, which admittedly have been in place many, many years.  They seem to have grown to an impressive extent since I saw them some years ago.  Any observations from our South American confreres would be most welcome.

My XJubutyagrus are definitely slowing as they age.  They clearly outran XButyagrus in their earlier years.  They are 28 feet and 21 feet tall respectively.  They came from the same brood, but the shorter one wasn’t planted out of the pot until quite a few years later.  it should be noted much more biomass is required per foot of trunk by XJubutyagrus than by XButyagrus.

Best Wishes,

merrill

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PalmGuyWC

Not to far off subject, but here's a report on my Butia X Parajubaea. Last week was a cold week, with about 5 nights at or below freezing, and daytime temps. only around 50F. Normally around the middle of November, my palms come to  a screatching halt in growth with the shorter days and cooler nights.

I have been marking the B X P for growth, and even with the much colder temps. it has continuted to grow, although much slower than before. This is pretty amazing to me that a palm will still continue to grow only 2 days from the shortest day of the year.

Dick

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Mark Heath

Hello Dick,

I am one of the fellows you mentioned having a BXP here in Central Florida.  It is fast growing and takes the heat and hummidity very well.  It grows all year here!

I'll take an updated pic (Google Marianna and Mark Heath) and you'll see the old pic.  The BXP has doubled it's size since then!  I can't wait to pollinate it w/ Syagrus.R pollen.

Hello Merrill!!!

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freakypalmguy

(Mark Heath @ Dec. 24 2007,06:17)

QUOTE
Hello Dick,

I am one of the fellows you mentioned having a BXP here in Central Florida.  It is fast growing and takes the heat and hummidity very well.  It grows all year here!

I'll take an updated pic (Google Marianna and Mark Heath) and you'll see the old pic.  The BXP has doubled it's size since then!  I can't wait to pollinate it w/ Syagrus.R pollen.

Hello Merrill!!!

Here is your Butia X Parajubea Mark. And here is a link to your Pictures

You have a lot of very nice looking palms. Look forward to seeing the updates.

Matt

0008.jpg

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Mark Heath

Matt,

Thank you!  I'll take some pics after the holidays. Everything is so much larger! I'll even take a few pics of my flowering/fruiting Cocos Nuciferas'. The Syagrus Amara is quite impressive as well!  The trunk is getting huge!!!  I can't wait for that to produce inflorescences as well!!

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PalmGuyWC

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the report on your B X P. I'm looking forward to your updated pictures of it. Like you, I'm anxious for them to start blooming, but it remains to be seen if they will be sterile or not. So far, it seems to be the hybrid for all seasons and vearied climates. I'm thinking it would be a good subject to cross with Syagrus, or maybe even a back cross with Parajubaea.

Dick

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maesy

Hi Dick

I'm sure you know palmbob in southern California. He is a member of Daves Garden communities and he has a blooming Parajubaea torayalli!

Here is a picture:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3554457

I don't think there that many blooming torayallis around.

Would that not be a great opportunaty for Patrick to get pollen for a butia x parajubaea torayallis cross?

Merry christmas and a happy new year!

Marcel

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PalmGuyWC

Hi Marcel,

Actually, I don't know that many people in S. Calif, as I rarely get down there anymore. Thanks for the pic of P T V T. I'm sure Patrick will  be licking his chops when he hears of that palm, and it looks low enough to collect pollen. He tried P T V T pollen once without success, but he didn't have much pollen and he was not sure of it's viability. I agree Butia X P T V T would make a great cross if it's possible. It would also be neat to cross it with Jubaea or Bujubaea. Thanks again for the info.

Dick

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merrill

Queen palm inflorescences produce such copious pollen that special precautions are advised when it is used as the mother in hybridization.

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Gaston in Argentina

Wow!

A flowering Parajubaea torallyi. I think i reember to see that wall that is at back of the palm, was showed before many times before.-

Maybe is a Paratorallyi var. torallyi because the red tomentum.-

Too early for say it but seeds will tell us. Please, keep us updated about the flowering process.-

happy new years to everyone.

Gaston, Argentina

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TimHopper

My (Jubaea X Butia) X Butia which was a 3 gallon gift from Merrill a few years ago is finally about to flower. I am hoping to pollinate it with Queen pollen. This tree should self pollinate to produce viable seed so I will have to emasculate it during the flowering process. I plan to document the procedure and post photographs of each step as before. I have been waiting a long time for this one to fruit. I'm pretty excited about it. Tim

001.jpg

002.jpg

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

Thanks for bringing this thread forward, as it's my favorite thread, and loaded with good information for anyone wanting to cross the cocoid palms. Also just for anyone wanting to know how to get a good seed set if they are not trying to hybridize.

Warm weather has finally arrived in N. Calif. and the cocoid flowering season is here. Patrick Schafer was here yesterday, emasculating, and pollenating. After working here all morning, he collected some very fresh Jubaea pollen, and went over to another garden in Berkeley to cross pollenate a Parajubaea cocoides that has it's second flower spike on it. (He had previously emasculated the flowers from the P. cocoides).

In another thread on here someone wondered how to keep squirrels from eating the seeds. I have squirrles all over the place, and once they discover the ripening fruit, or seeds, they will clean off the seeds in short order. The only way to protect the seeds is to make a sleeve of 1/4" chicken wire and cover the ripening fruit. It has to be sealed at both ends or the little buggers will work their way in to the seeds.

There was a Palm Society gathering at Edith Bergstrom's garden this past Sunday, and I was happy to see she has a nice Butia X Parajubaea about the same size as mine growing in her garden in Atherton. Temps. fell into the teens in her garden in the winter of '07 and her hybrid looked untouched and very healthy.

Dick

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Kris

Dear Tim :)

Lovely palm and fentastic hi res stills_i simply love it ! :winkie:

thanks for the stills & updates...

love,

Kris :)

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PalmGuyWC

I'm sorry to report that when Patrick went over to Berkeley to pollinate the P. cocoides with Jubaea pollen, rats or mice had chewed off all the female flowers. Not one left! Darn critters.

Dick

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TimHopper

My JxBxB is flowering. The first photo before cleaning the male flowers off. I have several nice queens ready to pop open spathes to produce me some fresh pollen. Should be time to pollinate in about 5-7 days. More photos to follow. Tim

002-1.jpg

Edited by TimHopper

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Alicehunter2000

This is one thread that I was going to print out.........great information here. Tim, can't wait to see your offspring :)

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TimHopper

My (JxB)xB after removing the male flowers and trimming the bract to a managable size. Probably 2-4 days from the receptive stage for pollination. More photos to follow.... Tim

002-2.jpg

Edited by TimHopper

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

That's a nice photo story you have going there. Keep 'em coming.

A phenomena that Patrick Schafer has observed is that if an inflorescence sets only a small amount of seeds, say 10 or 20, that it will often atrophy and die when the seeds are about half developed, or that the tip of the inflorescence will die back to where the lowest seeds are formed. It seems the more seeds are being held, the healther the inflorescence.

Jubaeas are notoriously hard to hybridize, and often there is only a scant seed set. They cross most eaisly with either Butia or Bujubaea, and all the others tried are hit and miss. Patrick has found that if he pollinates the female flowers at the tip of the inflorescence with Jubaea pollen and then the rest with whatever pollen he is using, that he gets better results. The Jubaea seeds formed at the tip of the inflorescence seems to keep the entire inflorescence healthy.

We have noted that if only 1/2 of an inflorescence is holding fruit, say either the top side or the bottom, that part of the peduncle that is supplying food to the fruit/seeds with remain healthy and turgid, while the other half tends to die back and atrophy. I guess if there is no demand for food, to conserve energy the palm only supplys food where its required.

Dick

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tank

Tim,

Is this the first inflorescence on this tree?

Thanks for the pictorial.

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PalmGuyWC

I reported in Dec '07 that I had a Syagrus X (Bujubaea) that was very slow growing. Now that it has opened its 2nd divided frond it has speeded up considerably. It's growing in a 2 gal container, and I don't know whether to move it to a larger container or put it in the ground. I expect it will be at least a Queen sized palm and I'm running out of planting space.

Nigel mentioned that Charles in Portugal has this hybrid and also the reverse cross. The plants that Charles has are a year older than mine, so Charles, how about some pictures, or anyone else that has these crosses. I promise to post pictures later in the summer of my hybrids when they have more size to them.

My Butia X Parajubaea still surprises me with its rate of growth. It's pushing out 3 fronds at different stages of growth and each frond is growing at a rate of about 1 inch in a 24 hr period.

Dick

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TimHopper
Tim,

That's a nice photo story you have going there. Keep 'em coming.

A phenomena that Patrick Schafer has observed is that if an inflorescence sets only a small amount of seeds, say 10 or 20, that it will often atrophy and die when the seeds are about half developed, or that the tip of the inflorescence will die back to where the lowest seeds are formed. It seems the more seeds are being held, the healther the inflorescence.

Jubaeas are notoriously hard to hybridize, and often there is only a scant seed set. They cross most eaisly with either Butia or Bujubaea, and all the others tried are hit and miss. Patrick has found that if he pollinates the female flowers at the tip of the inflorescence with Jubaea pollen and then the rest with whatever pollen he is using, that he gets better results. The Jubaea seeds formed at the tip of the inflorescence seems to keep the entire inflorescence healthy.

We have noted that if only 1/2 of an inflorescence is holding fruit, say either the top side or the bottom, that part of the peduncle that is supplying food to the fruit/seeds with remain healthy and turgid, while the other half tends to die back and atrophy. I guess if there is no demand for food, to conserve energy the palm only supplys food where its required.

Dick

Dick, Thanks for those interesting points. You have an amazing garden. Tim

Edited by TimHopper

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TimHopper
Tim,

Is this the first inflorescence on this tree?

Thanks for the pictorial.

Jason this is the first inflorescence to open. A second one opened today just prior to the first being receptive. I'll have to cover the first while I emasculate the second. There is a third spathe which should open soon also. Tim

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Gtlevine

I did not know Jubaea are more difficult to hybridize with everything but Butia. What I am interested in seeing is a hybrid with Jubaea and Syagrus only, has anyone had success with this or even tried it yet?

Gary

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PalmGuyWC

Gary,

Patrick Schafer has successfully crossed Jubaea with Syagrus, and I have a small one with 5 strap fronds. It's very dark green in color and is a stubby looking plant. Thus far it has been very slow growing, but I need to move it from a 1 gal to a 2 gal sized pot. The plant has a heavy texture and it's definately a hybrid. It has a different apperance from any of the other cocoid hybrids I've seen.

Patrick is coming today to do some more hybridizing, and I'll try to get some more information on this cross.

Dick

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PalmGuyWC

Patrick did arrive yesterday and spent a good part of the day emasculating and pollenating palms. I asked him about the Jubaea X Syagrus hybrids. This is one of the more difficult hybrids to achieve, and after several attempts he ended up with only about 10 plants. Some of his plants are larger than the one I have. He said they are all very dark green and tend to have a strict habit of growth. This is to be expeccted since juvinile Jubaeas tend to have a strict habit and then the fronds "relax" more as they get older.

He also did the reverse cross using Syagrus as the mother plant, and only managed to get one plant from his many attempts of this cross. It remains to be seen what these hybrids will grow into as none of them have formed trunks yet.

There used to be a Jubaea X Syagrus hybrid growing in the lower part of Fairchild Gardens, but it was growing in almost pure limestone and was not irrigated. It never looked healthy and only held about 4 fronds. It was growing not to far away from brackish water and mangroves, and I think it was wiped out with hurricane Andrew.

Dick

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TimHopper

This (JxB)xB flowering process was much faster than plain Butia that I have worked with. The female flowers were ready for pollen sooner and were only right for pollination for just over 24 hours. On plain butia the female flower stigmas remain yellow and producing droplets for about three days. This (JxB)xB kind of took me by suprise and I hope I got enough pollen on during that one day period. I will know in a few days if they are going to set. I'll be ready for the next inflourescence which has already open and maybe I can get some better photos. I'm working with my camera macro setting to try and figure out the manual focus feature. This photo shows the stigmas starting to dry up. Tim

001-1.jpg

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TimHopper

Seed set at about 80% was better that I expected using Syagrus pollen. I have pollinated the second bract as well and am preparing the third bract for pollination in a few days. Now if I can just keep the squirrels away from them until they ripen. Tim

002-3.jpg

001-2.jpg

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TimHopper

My (JxB)xB produced over 1000 seeds using Queen pollen for pollenation of three seed bracts this summer. After cleaning the seeds, I broke some open to find that they were very normal looking and had embryos intact. They look viable and I have hopes for good germination. I prepared a germination bed and planted all of them and covered it with mesh wire to keep the squirrels out. I'm not sure if any will germinate this fall due to the temperatures starting to drop. Should have some popping up in May or June next year if they are good. Tim

Edited by TimHopper

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PalmGuyWC

Since this is one of the longest runing threads on Cocoid hybrids, I thought I'd add my comments here. I know this thread was titiled Jubutyagrus, but it's has morphed into other things, and this the most informative disucssion on the Cocoid hybrids I've seen, and thanks to Tim for his photographs and this great discussion.

To stay somewhat on subject, I planted a Jubutyagrus about a year ago. It's now about 4' high and has 7 divided fronds. I also have a Syagrus X (Bujubea) cross. Here are the differances. The Jubutagrus has a heavier texture to the fronds, and the leaf blades grow at a 90 degree angle to the rhacis. It has a matt finish, not glossy. After less than a year in the grond it's speading up in growth but hasn't really taken off yet, but I expect it will as it gets larger.

The Syagrus X (Butia X Jubaea) is a smaller plant with only two divided fronds. It is glossy and the leaf blades grow at a 45 degree angle pointed towards the tip of the frond. This plant seems to have more of the Syagrus charicteristics than the other, as it should, since the mother that produced the seeds is a Syagrus.

On another note..........This year Patrick Schafer, the hybridizer, obtained some different pollens. We had a late spring, so most or all of the hybrid seeds are still maturing, but most should be ripe by November or December. Some new introductions will be Parajubaea Sunkha and P. Torallyi crossed wilth Butias, and also some new Butias into the mix, such as B. yata and B. paraguayensis.

There is another cross that may have been sucessful, but it's "TOP SECRET" but I'm not allowed to mention it yet. (It could be a total dud, but seeds are forming, but it's to early to tell yet.

Dick

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buffy
There is another cross that may have been successful, but it's "TOP SECRET" but I'm not allowed to mention it yet. (It could be a total dud, but seeds are forming, but it's to early to tell yet. Dick

Please tell me he crossed Butia w/ Cocos. Please. The freakin' holy grail. Can I call shotgun on that. If so, "shotgun".

Edited by buffy

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PalmGuyWC

No cocos, but I'm sure Patrick would try it if he got his hands on some viable cocos pollen. I think Mike Harris may have a Butia X Coconut hybrid. He had a picture on here, and it sure looked like the real thing. There is somelthing even better than Coconut, but the odds are very slim it will work. The fruit is half grown and they haven't aborted yet. Time will tell.

Dick

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Mark Heath

Hello Dick,

Who is Mike Harris?? I would love to see the pics of his BXCocos.N! I'm also going to try again next spring to cross the Butia w/ Cocos. I recieved 5 seeds this year and i can't wait to see what germinates! The pics you had seen were ones that Ed Brown took while he was here of my accidental/volunteer cross which we suspect to be a BXCocos.N.

BTW, i sent Patrick some Syagrus SP pollen a few years back, could you ask him if anything germinated w/ it?

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iamjv

Tim, it'll be interesting to see what germination rate you get out of those (JxB)xBxS seeds.... Jv

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PalmGuyWC
Hello Dick,

Who is Mike Harris?? I would love to see the pics of his BXCocos.N! I'm also going to try again next spring to cross the Butia w/ Cocos. I recieved 5 seeds this year and i can't wait to see what germinates! The pics you had seen were ones that Ed Brown took while he was here of my accidental/volunteer cross which we suspect to be a BXCocos.N.

BTW, i sent Patrick some Syagrus SP pollen a few years back, could you ask him if anything germinated w/ it?

Hi Mark,

Sorry, I got my names mixed as I was refering to you. Mike Harris is from Ft. Lauderdale and is visiting for a garden tour today. I guess I had his name on my mind. Mark, I'm anxious to see what your hybrid will look like when mature.

Dick

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Charles Wychgel
Patrick did arrive yesterday and spent a good part of the day emasculating and pollenating palms. I asked him about the Jubaea X Syagrus hybrids. This is one of the more difficult hybrids to achieve, and after several attempts he ended up with only about 10 plants. Some of his plants are larger than the one I have. He said they are all very dark green and tend to have a strict habit of growth. This is to be expeccted since juvinile Jubaeas tend to have a strict habit and then the fronds "relax" more as they get older.

Nigel packed up his business and moved to Brazil, selling his personal plant collection and I was lucky to get his JubaeaxSyagrus, which fits the description exactly: dark green and upright growth, I planted it out yesterday and took photos today of all the hybrids except the Butia x Parajubaea

First pic of the JubaeaxSyagrus,second one of the Jubaea x Butia(F2),number three Jubaea xButia(F3) number four Syagrus x Jubaea x Butia

post-37-1223041768_thumb.jpg

post-37-1223041954_thumb.jpg

post-37-1223041989_thumb.jpg

post-37-1223042271_thumb.jpg

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Charles Wychgel

And some pix of the Butia x Syagrus and the Butia paraguensis x Syagrus

post-37-1223042437_thumb.jpg

post-37-1223042484_thumb.jpg

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