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TimHopper

Jubutyagrus

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TimHopper

Keep in mind that nearly the same process can be used on many compatible monoecious palms (where both male and female reproductive structures are found on the same individual). Dioecious palms like the phoenix varieties are much easier to hybridize.

I hope to soon dedicate my webpage www.HybridPalms.com to giving hybridization instructions using various techniques that have worked for myself and others.  I will get some better quality photos first. It looks like I'm going to have to dust off my old Nikon 2000 for some macro shots.

Kris, I would really be smiling if it was a Viper !  It is a Mazda RX 8.

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TimHopper

The female flowers are continuing to develope and the stigmas are forming. The small yellow three-way star at the tips are the small petals pushing through. You may never have noticed these unless you have really looked closely.They should be open and receptive starting tomrrow when I will get more photos. I have the queen pollen ready as well as talcum powder to mix it with and a dosing syringe to apply it to the female flowers. Merrill says that talc is better to use than corn starch as it is more free flowing. I tested some yesterday and it makes a much better dust cloud. Tim

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TimHopper

A newly added opportunity to attempt backcrossing XButyagrus on the south side of my house. This Xbutyagrus is quite different from the one in my front lawn, and has three seed spathes emerging. I have four of my most variable XButyagrus planted here to work with.

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TimHopper

Today I will apply queen pollen to the female XButyagrus female flowers. I have so many queens that I normally just go cut a new Queen inflorescence and shake the pollen onto the flowers that I am working with. I am photographing the pollen collection technique for those who don't have a ready supply of pollen. I will mix some talc with the pure pollen (in the Smuckers jar), before applying.

Merrill how much talc do you recommend mixing with pure pollen?

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freekypalmguy

Great stuff Tim. Thank you for sharing this process with us.

When you are done, you should start a new thread in Palm FAQ (germination technique or something like that) with these pics and information in it.

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merrill

Hi, Tim:

Very excellent  posts!  I use anywhere from 1:1::pollen:talc to 1:3::pollen:talc, depending mostly on my experience with the activity of the particular pollen on the particular mama.  Best Wishes,  merrill

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PalmGuyWC

I'm wondering:  Doesn't baby powder, or talic have additaves such as a fragrance added?  I'm wondering if this would harm the pollen mixed with it? Another question:  What is talic anyway and how does it differ from corn starch?

Dick

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Kris

Dear Tim  :)

if iam a vice-chancellor of any reputed agricultural universities

here,i would have confered you with a honary Degree with a

Phd on this hybridisation method seen or done in palms..

since you are doing this thesis with notes and vivid illustrations too and that too internationally.in front of other

heavy weights(Critical Evalutionist).

Great Work_Keep it up !

Love,

Kris  :)

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merrill

Talc is finely ground pyrophyllite.

Quoting Wikipedia:

"Pyrophyllite is a phyllosilicate mineral species belonging to the clay family and composed of aluminium silicate hydroxide: AlSi2O5OH" END QUOTE.

I use pure talc w/ no additives.  Otherwise the label should disclose amounts and chemistry of any additives.  I add pollen to talcum powder just before application, so the contact time is short.

Professionals in the coconut and date industries use talc as a pollen diluent.  

OTOH  one wouldn't expect anything very harmful in baby powder.

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TimHopper

I was going to start pollenating today but they are not quite there yet. The stigmas are fully protruded but not open yet. I will check them at daylight in the morning when I expect them to be open. Updated photos just before dark. Tim

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

I see you got the micro out.  Those are great, clear photographs and I'm enjoing the eveloution of the flowers. This is definately a thread that should be preserved, and I hope you continue to send in photos of the progress right up until the palm is loaded with ripe fruit.

It might even be interesting to show photos of the split seeds to show what a viable seed looks like compaired to the ones that are dummies as surely some will probably be.

Dick

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TimHopper

Good idea Dick. To show a cross section of a healthy seed with the embryo intact would be very helpfull to evaluate a hybrid seed set. Before I learned to check for embryos, I suspect that I wasted a lot of time trying to germinate defective seeds. Tim

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TimHopper

Even though the stigmas are not all completely open this morning, I'm going to begin pollenating. I usually dust them twice daily for a couple of days until the stigmas start turning brown. One well timed application may be enough, so my repetition might be overkill. Some of the strands of female flowers are slightly offset considering their stages of developement, so I do several applications of pollen to make sure that I have gotten them all. Now to mix a teaspoon of pollen with a teaspoon of talcum powder. Tim

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TimHopper

Spraying a pollen/talc dust cloud several times from all angles...

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merrill

Hi, Tim:

Good shot of the talc Cloud!  It disperses so much better than various starches or anything else I've tried over the years.  Your photography is excellent!  Best Wishes, merrill

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Kris

Dear Folks  :)

i wish to ask some questions,please forgive me if it sounds a bit silly.but request few answers on that_

isnt it be better to spray the female flowers with water using hand held sprayer(Automiser) before dusting the female flower with the pollen dust.so that the blowen pollen dust easily sticks to the female flowers better and of more quantity.

if the above method is followed will their be any other problems ? say the female flowers gradually drying up and

falling off.thinking that rainy season has began.since in phoenix palms during the flowering season,even if it rains

mildly all the flowers of these trees try to fall of without

forming good size seeds..

Please shed some light on the doubts i have...

Love,

Kris  :)

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merrill

QUOTING KRISACHAR:  isnt it be better to spray the female flowers with water using hand held sprayer(Automiser) before dusting the female flower with the pollen dust.so that the blowen pollen dust easily sticks to the female flowers better and of more quantity.  END QUOTE

Hi, Krisachar:

Pure water might burst the the pollen rather than germinate it.  Sucrose (30%) in water has been used to germinate palm pollen.  Robert Read, the Curator of Palms at the Smithsonian, used a lower sugar concentration to germinate pollen described in "Principes" several years ago; leave out the boron.  I've tried sugar solutions on the stigma, but didn't see any improvement in pollination success.  Best Wishes, merrill

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Kris

Dear Merrill  :)

thanks a lot for replying my question.you guys are great,and i always admired folks who do not fear to experiment.and hybridisation & cloning had always cought my attention.

and i believe that a hybridised Sp is better species than the parent.since it has more good qualities in them from both the

species.i have seen this quality even in human beings who marry from different race and especially different food eating

habits.

Anyway thanks once again for that explination. :)

Love,

Kris  :)

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TimHopper

I have been applying pollen while all of the female flowers are open. You can see the small yellow stigmas open at the tips. This is where the pollen enters to fertilize the female flowers. Early in the morning there is usually a small droplet of nectar on each tip of the stigmas to attract insects carrying pollen. You can apply the pollen with a small paintbrush, syringe, or whatever you can think of to get the pollen to those areas. Tim

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Kris

Dear tim  :)

the variety in discussion is not too tall to do all the stuff standing on the floor or on a stool.

but emagine how it would be carried out in phoenix or other tall varities ?

and i was told by a friend that in gulf countries the labrours climb the date palm tree with male flowers in hand and they tie it to one of the clusters in the top.that's it.in that hot desert do we have ants or bees to pollinate ?

can you guys explain what process of crossing occurs in the desert date palms ?

Love,

Kris  :)

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SubTropicRay

Very nice photos.

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TimHopper

OK, It's official! My neighbors think I'm crazy jockeying for a good position to get yet more intimate close-ups of my XButyagrus out front. Here you can see a little nectar forming on the flower on the right. These two photos show what I think to be the beginning of the most receptive stage which usually lasts 24-48 hours. Tim

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tank

Tim,

I haven't gone back through the thread to see if and how you protect the female flowers when you're not pollinating them, so I apologize if its already been discussed.  If you do keep them covered, could you post a pic?  Your pictures and descriptions are awesome!

Thanks,

Jason

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TimHopper

(tank @ May 08 2007,11:36)

QUOTE
Tim,

I haven't gone back through the thread to see if and how you protect the female flowers when you're not pollinating them, so I apologize if its already been discussed.  If you do keep them covered, could you post a pic?  Your pictures and descriptions are awesome!

Thanks,

Jason

Jason, I'm glad you brought it up. I use a hypoallergenic pillow case to cover the bract while it is not being worked. It breathes but does not allow stray pollen in. In the past I have used large paper bags or even feed bags. I'm not sure what is best. Tim

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TimHopper

Soon the female flowers will begin turning brown and drying up. I have applied pollen several times over the last three days. Of course the yellow dust that you can see is residual pollen. Here are the latest photos. Tim

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

Those are great photographs of the female flowers close up.  I hope you will keep us posted as the fruit develops.

Dick

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Kris

Dear Tim  :)

great close-ups and elaborate illustrations...

and very eager to see the continuation of this entire episode !

thanks for the coverage,

Love,

Kris  :)

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swolf

Merrill or others,

What kind of life span would you speculate that a well-cared for Jubutyagrus might have?  I've read that pure Jubaea can live more than 1,600 years (!), but I was unable to locate data for butia, and queen.  One site said 80 years for butia.  

Do you know the respective life spans of these species, and how would you speculate that the order of their hybridizing would affect their lifespan?  Namely where Butia is "mother" vs. Jubaea "mother" -- since this seems to impact other physical traits of the offspring like trunk size and appearance.  I guess an F1 JXB would have the most Jubaea influence.

I read an article about palms in Southern Cal.  that may be removed due to pruning expense etc. and it was also noted that these palms (planted in the 50's) are nearing the end of their lives.  That surprised me (I don't know if it's factually correct or not) and made me wonder about these Jubaea hybrids.   Thanks.

Steve

St. Augustine FL

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iamjv

Steve,

 Which palms in S. Cal were they speaking of???

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swolf

Tim, if memory serves, the article was talking about the  Mexican Fans and Canary Island Date palms that are both tall and NOT self-cleaning.  So the city has been spending alot for pruning.  Then I think they threw in the age of the palms reference.

Steve

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swolf

Whoops, that reply was to JV.

Steve

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iamjv

Thanks for the info Steve.  Sure hope they don't decide to eliminate palms from the LA horizon...

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Gaston in Argentina

Ok not an Jubutiagrus if not just a picture of my JubaeaXButia, very simmilar then the one showed by Steve in SC in another forum.-

Mine come from Jubaeas seeds growing near some Butia capitatas and flowering in the same age.- It seems Jubaeas female flowers love Butia pollen so as  Jubaea´s.-

Note the hooked leaves tips.-

jubutia2no4.jpg

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TimHopper

Gaston, Yours is a VERY nice looking cross. Similar to my JxBxB except  mine has a little more recurve and slight armament near the leaf bases. Tim

jxbxb001.jpg

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Nigel

(Gaston in Argentina @ May 18 2007,19:53)

QUOTE
Ok not an Jubutiagrus if not just a picture of my JubaeaXButia, very simmilar then the one showed by Steve in SC in another forum.-

Mine come from Jubaeas seeds growing near some Butia capitatas and flowering in the same age.- It seems Jubaeas female flowers love Butia pollen so as  Jubaea´s.-

Note the hooked leaves tips.-

jubutia2no4.jpg

Gaston, an F1 is a real treasure and your plant is beautiful.

I still have 2 or 3 seedlings from those Jubaeas seeds you sent me, I put them aside because they looked a little different so I am hoping and hoping..........

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merrill

QUOTING STEVE:  

Merrill or others,

What kind of life span would you speculate that a well-cared for Jubutyagrus might have?  I've read that pure Jubaea can live more than 1,600 years (!), but I was unable to locate data for butia, and queen.  One site said 80 years for butia.  

Do you know the respective life spans of these species, and how would you speculate that the order of their hybridizing would affect their lifespan?  Namely where Butia is "mother" vs. Jubaea "mother" -- since this seems to impact other physical traits of the offspring like trunk size and appearance.  I guess an F1 JXB would have the most Jubaea influence.

I read an article about palms in Southern Cal.  that may be removed due to pruning expense etc. and it was also noted that these palms (planted in the 50's) are nearing the end of their lives.  That surprised me (I don't know if it's factually correct or not) and made me wonder about these Jubaea hybrids.   Thanks.

Steve

St. Augustine FL  END QUOTE

Hi, Steve:

You ask tough questions! There really is so little experience here in U. S. re' longevity in Butiinae.  Gaston has posted photos of B. yatay that suggest considerable longevity.  It would be interesting to hear what the survival is of the double row of quite mature Jubaea at Mdm. Ganna Walska's estate ( at Montecito?) many years ago.  One on the corner appeared to be Jubaea X Queen.  We need Gaston!

Phoenix and the non-yatay Butia have reasonably good survival here in the U. S.  My impression has been that Jubaea doesn't have longevity of  1000 years in the U. S.   Again, we need Gaston!  Best Wishes, merrill

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Gaston in Argentina

Hi Merrill and all.

Butiagrus can live +80 years for sure, that are the age of two that grow around here that i think are hibridized with  B. yatay.-

But, the older Butiagrus i saw were two older that grow together in Asuncion of Paraguay, unfortunately i had not cammera in hand when i saw them.- We need some help from somebody in that city, they are located in the frontyard of a very knew Shopping Center called "Club Britanico" o "Centro Britanico" that is located in a wide avenue that run N-S. from the good riche neigbohord to the downtown.- Both were older then 100 years according the age of the old restored house where the shopping center was made.-

As for the Jubaeas, i can say nothing but i think they have more longevity then Parajubaeas, and for know an aproximate of this late specie i would reccomend to read this article of a survivor palm sill alive that grow in the fronyard of a today indian ruin house,  home of an important inca (previous then europeans) and late described by Alcides DÓrbigny in 1830 writing about " five palms, the one very tall palm" in that year.-

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Parajubaea/torallyiB.html

Historic Parajubaea torallyi

It is a Parajub. tor. microcarpa and the rest four (that can be seen in the pic and are also veeery tall) are (suposely) their doughters.-

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mjff

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Apr. 14 2007,08:56)

QUOTE
While I have all of you hybridizers in one spot, I would like to get your opinion of this plant. It came with a bunch of Jubaea seedlings, but as you can see, it's not a Jubaea(note small Jubaeas in foreground from same crop) The seeds were supposedly collected from the Jubes at Mission Bay, San Diego. Could this be a hybrid, or is it just freakish luck to have a Butia in the mix of seedlings. I got these from Ron LAwyer, and I don't believe he'd even grow Butia.

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I have 4 plants that are supposedly Butia Capitata that came from FL, but the trunks on two look like the pictures I have seen of pure Butia's and the other two look just like the 2nd and 3rd pictures in post 68 by Steve in So Cal with the wide leaf bases and fiber instead of teeth on the lower petiole.  

They haven't flowered yet, while the other two have flowered with flowers that look correct for pure Butia.  

Do some pure Butia's have the wide leaf bases and fiber instead of teeth on the lower petiole, or are these most likely Jubaea x Butia?

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Gaston in Argentina

About the longevity of the Jubaea chilensis, heres some documented and registered historical information.-

Historic Jubaea chilensis

46_12a.jpg pictured in 1890

46_12b.jpg

The same palm in 2005

Is located in Concon, north of Viña del Mar, Chile.-

Older then "La Capitana" is this:48_12a.jpg that is located in the downtown of La Serena city, Chile, the article is about to be at least 750 years old and seen by the spaniards conquerors in 1540.-

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