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TimHopper

Jubutyagrus

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Alberto

I dried my inflorescences of B.microspadix in a wooden box with a 50W lamp.

When it was dry I crushed and sifted it. The pollen was collected in a little jar with silica gel. Then it was storaged in a refrigerator and used on the B.eriospatha flowers when they were ripe.

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Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Dick, this thread has also provided me with much needed information. I can not make any claim to much new hybridizing information and rely mostly on information I find in books, the internet, and from other hybridizers who generously share their knowledge. The pollen issue is one I would be extremely interested in. From what I have tried and from what I can gather from others there is not a lot of solid information. There is a book with the title, if I remember correctly, "Viability and Storage of Pollen of the Oil Palm". I also draw from techniques used for other plant species, which I also hybridize. I usually dry my pollen, in an air conditioned space for about a day, then put in a small sealed container with silica gel and in the refrigerator for a couple of more days. I then have frozen it with and without the gel. So far no conclusions on the best way. Hybridizing palms here on the North Carolina coast is a lot harder than in California as we are limited in the number of pollen producers. Flowering Butia's are plentiful with a lot of different forms. We are too cold for Syagrus, but I have two large ones in a large greenhouse that should flower soon. Syagrus pollen I could probably get out of Florida rather easy but just have not tried yet. Jubaea is non existant, in the entire southeast, except for one several years away from flowering in RocK Hill, S.C..  Parajubaea and all other possible donors are non existant here as well. I am trying to grow Parajubaea and am having some success but Jubaea has been a no go. I need to find a large one and hope I live long enough to get pollen LOL. My best bet is waiting on my mule, Jubaea and Parajubaea hybrids to mature (they grow very well for me)  for pollen to make a three way hybrid. The only other way to get pollen is to ask for it from someone from California and that has understandably been very little as it seems hard enough to access there, much less getting it here in usable shape. I would love to start an IPS "Pollen Bank" not only so that I would have access to pollen but so that everyone would. It surprises me that someone from California has not tried to gather and sell Jubaea and Parajubaea pollen. Making money on it may be the incentive for someone to go to the trouble. I know someone from Chile was offering Jubaea pollen a few years ago, but I feared by the time it got to me it would be worthless.

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merrill

Hi, Jeff:

I'd really be interested in  more of the citation of  "Viability and Storage of Pollen of the Oil Palm".  My impressions have been that total dehydration kills the pollen.  It has for me, and for these researchers from the Jamaica palm breeding lab:

    1.  Whitehead, R.A. 1963. The processing of coconut pollen. Euphytica 12:167-177

    2.   Whitehead, R.A. 1965. Freeze-drying and room temperature storage of coconut pollen. Economic Botany 19:267-275.

    3     King, J.R. 1961. The freeze-drying of pollens. Economic Botany 15:91-98.

I don't discount this data because of the date of publication.

I'm going to close before my errant computer does it for me!  Best Wishes, merrill

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TimHopper

I am also very interested in effective ways to collect and store pollen. Two years ago I collected queen pollen by using a very large paper bag to wrap the inflorescence. I first put about a cup of corn starch in the bag, closed the top, and shook it to coat the  inside of the bag. Then slide the bag over the inflorescence on the second day after opening and hit the stem sharply with your hand (or rubber mallet) to shake some pollen into the bag. I repeated this five times over two days to collect more pollen than I imagined. I used it over the next few days to work on Butia crosses and then froze the remaining amount wrapped in foil. I never used the remaining amount so I'm not sure if it would have worked after being mixed with starch. It's hard to beat using a fresh inflorescence for dusting live pollen. We have so many queens here that I just go cut one and shake the whole queen inflorescent over my prepared mother Butia inflorscence. I do this for three days or so (twice daily) until all females have set. Being able to import pollen which is unavailable here would be very valuable. Tim

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NCpalmqueen

Hey Jeff

This is Cindy from Raleigh.  I am driving out to San Diego, CA soon and could transport pollen back from CA  for you.  This will be a LOOONG road trip from NC.  Maybe there is someone willing to help you out with your pollen needs who lives in SD, & maybe they could catch up with me while I'm there?   Just a thought.....

p.s. My jub is doing wonderfully.  4th year in the ground.

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PalmGuyWC

I have a question.  Why do you guys use corn starch mixed with the pollen? It seems to me this would only dilute the pollen.  Patrick uses 100% pure pollen, or as pure as he can get it, but rather than the "shake or blow method" he brushes each individual female flower. Sounds like your method is lots eaiser, and you seem to get good results. Fill me in.

Dick

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merrill

QUESTION FROM Tim: Merrill, Have you germinated seed from the [(JXB)xB]xB Tim END QUOTE

Tim, my earlier negative response stands corrected.  A European reports several seedlings, germinating in much better yield than than the parents, presumably from my seed one year older.  Best Wishes, merrill

Hi, Dick:  Quite a few professionals around the world  use talc.  From personal experience, it is more free-flowing than starch or pure pollen.  Dilution  in talc greatly extends the pollen supply, and it takes very little pollen to pollinate.  Best Wishes, merrill

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merrill

Hi, Dick:

Many years ago, you and/or your room mate planted XButyagrus from me on the Presidio somewhere.  If it survived, It'd probably be older than any of mine.  They are about the generation of the Huntington one.  I realize you don't post photos, but must admit I'm  curious how they're doing, if still alive.

The board shut me off before adding this to previous posting.

Best Wishes,  merrill

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Kris

Dear Guys  :)

are you all botany students or science students doing papers on genetic engeneering ?  :)

great topic and i love it !

Kris  :)

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merrill

Quoting Alberto:

Merrill, very nice palms!

Are this [(JxB)xB]xB or (JxB)xB ?  END QUOTE

Hi, Alberto:

A seedling from the F1 JXB at Fairchild, therefore an F2, (JXB)XB was bought from FTG by a friend; this is the parent I've been working with.  This F2 is mostly selfsterile, but is very receptive to Butia pollen with somewhat limited germination of the very large seed.  The next generation of resultant F3 when back-crossed with w/ Butia produce a very heavy set of large seed when self- or sibling-pollinated. A gentleman in Europe has had better germination from these than I have from seed from the F2.  I think his seed may be from the prior summers harvest

Quoting Alberto again:

"Dick ,how sure you are your BxJ is a F1 and not a (BxJ)xB?  END QUOTE

Fred Boutin, then at Huntington B. G., produced quite a few BXJ seed.  Some of these BXJ seed were distributed at the IPS meeting in 1976 at Melbourne. FL.  Eric, and others, have posted photos of the BXJ derived from these seed of Fred's.  As remembered, there were about three photos of them posted, and they were similar in size and appearance to Dick's BXJ, suggesting they were F1 as Dick says.

Best Wishes,  merrill

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Jeff zone 8 N.C.
Hi, Jeff:

I'd really be interested in  more of the citation of  "Viability and Storage of Pollen of the Oil Palm".  My impressions have been that total dehydration kills the pollen.  It has for me, and for these researchers from the Jamaica palm breeding lab:

Merrill, I will try to dig that citation up for you. I think I have a copy. Please do  correct me when I stray. It's the only way to learn. I think the idea is to get the pollen dried to about 6 to 8 percent moisture. Since I have no way to measure that I have to store separate batches of pollen dried under different methods and to different degrees and then re-mix them before use. It's crude but it works. Some times when hybridizing Clivia and Crinum lily I have used pollen stored with silica gel and I did seem to get poor seed set. Maybe the only reason I got any seed was from some other stray pollen.

Tim, I look forward to you posting pictures of your methods.

Cindy, thanks for that offer. I hope you have someone to help drive. That's a marathon road trip. I will make a new post asking about the timing for Jubaea  and Parajubaea flowering for the San Diego area. There are a lot of Jub's there, but finding one that can be accessed for pollen is a different matter. I'll let you know if I can arrange something.

Kris, I am not a botany or science student but just do hybridizing as part of my love of plants. There are some on here that are very educated already and others like myself that are trying to learn from the others all that I can. I really appreciatte those that share their knowledge.

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Kris

(Jeff zone 8 N.C. @ Apr. 20 2007,21:52)

QUOTE
Kris,

I am not a botany or science student but just do hybridizing as part of my love of plants. There are some on here that are very educated already and others like myself that are trying to learn from the others all that I can. I really appreciatte those that share their knowledge.

Dear Jeff Zone  :)

I like that attitude of yours,since it keeps one growing.one who

thinks that he knows everything them nobady teches him.

that's for shure.iam telling this out of my own experience.

since you kept your option open iam glad you are going to

learn a lot !

happy crusing in journey of life_my friend.. :)

thanks & love,

Kris  :)

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TimHopper

Has anyone tried collecting anthers just before anthesis, drying, and then freezing? Tim

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

I've seen Patrick cut off Butia spaths just before they looked like they would pop open. This was usually on a tree that was not receptive to hybridising or he didn't want the pollen to contaminate another tree growing near by.

In a day or so the spath would open and as the flowers began to dry, there was copious amounts of pollen. I have also noticed there is loose pollen fallilng from a spath the moment it opens. I think the pollen is viable before the spath opens, or some of it anyway.

Once I was standing near a Syagrus when a spathe popped open.  It made a loud pop and sounded like a pistol.  Scared the dickens out of me.

Dick

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TimHopper

As I mentioned in a previous post I am working to back-cross my XButyagrus with syagrus pollen. Over the next 10-15 days I will be photographing the process and describing it as well as I can with my limited knowledge of the terminology. I use the same technique to produce XButyagrus. Several of you said that you would like to try hybridization, so this is to make you aware of when to take the necessary steps.

On day one when the spathe opens I trim about 6-8 inches off of each strand of flowers on the inflourescence. The sections that I trim off are mainly male flowers, and it makes the process easier. The male flowers will start opening right away with most of them opening in the first five or six days.

Crossing001.jpg

In the next photo I am pointing to a male flower(dark pink) which will all be removed. I know of no fast way to do this. I pick them off one by one.

Crossing002.jpg

Below you can see the single strand that I picked the male flowers from.

Crossing007.jpg

This XButyagrus that I am working with is almost certainly self sterile but I am emasculating it to make certain that they are in fact back-crosses if it sets viable seeds. I will have more photos soon (hopefully better focused) after I remove all of the male flowers. I don't worry about covering the efflourescence before the stigmas begin to form on the female flowers. At this stage they are not yet receptive to pollen. Others who know the process please chime in with your methods if they vary from mine. Tim

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TimHopper

Here is a shot of the inflorescence after trimming 6-8 inches off each strand. At this size it is much more manageable and contains the best of the female flowers and fewer male flowers.

Crossing006.jpg

The tips of these strands hold the majority of the male flowers and usually produce the puniest seeds if left on.

Crossing008.jpg

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Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Excellent demonstration Tim! I look forward to the rest of the story. Thanks!

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malcthomas

Quote from Dick..."I would imagine these hybrids would do well for our Southern Australia and New Zeeland friends. Are any of you guys south of the equator growing any of these palms?"

Dick...I am following this thread very closely....deliberate hybridising of these Butiinae genera has not been done here in New Zealand as far as I am aware.... yes, they would do well in southern parts of the country...

I do have some 'Jubutia' and 3 of Tim's Butiagrus and with a Parajubaea c. at the flowering stage as well as many flowering Butia (different species) and Queens, I'm pretty keen to have a go at the hybridising myself when I retire in a couple of years time.  (Unfortunately, I dont think that I will be around when my Jubaea make it to flowering)

A question for Tim/Merrill/Ed..

Is there a need to hand remove the male flowers?  I would have thought that these would have dropped  naturally before the female flowers became receptive and that removing the later spathe would be more important..(I do have a lot to learn)

Merril....I visited the Tauranga Jubutia last week and noticed that it was dropping hundreds of butia size fruit...the next infructescence of ripening fruit were over twice the size and it was quite apparent that this had been self pollinated while the first had been cross polinated by the nearby Butia...  

Kind regards...Malcolm

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PalmGuyWC

Malcolm,

The hybridizer in N. Calif. thinks it's very important to remove all the male flowers and then cover the inflorescence with a bag to prevent pollen contamination. Seems the palms have an affinity for their own pollen. That means every single male flower should be removed and that's one of the most tedious steps in hybridizing. I described earlier in this thread how he does it.

Merrill, I have no memory of ever have planted any hybrids, or anything else in the Presideo.  If I had, I'm sure I would remember. One of our N. Calif. members years ago did sneek some Ceroxylons into Golden Gate Park but they were later discovered and removed. I'm sure the gardeners had no idea what they were. The Presidio would be an excellent place to plant some of the cooler loving palms as that is one of the few areas in San Francisco with some space left.

Dick

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Nigel

(PalmGuyWC @ Apr. 24 2007,08:40)

QUOTE
One of our N. Calif. members years ago did sneek some Ceroxylons into Golden Gate Park but they were later discovered and removed. I'm sure the gardeners had no idea what they were.

ohhhhhhhh those stoopid gardeners, imagine those trees now.

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PalmGuyWC

Nigel,

Yes, Nigel, I can imagine how beautiful those Ceroxylons would be now.  They were planted among some large tree ferns across the road from the Conservatory in Golden Gate Park. I can only dream of how beautiful those palms would be now sticking up above the tree ferns.

The Palm Society has always had difficulty dealing with the folks in San Francisco.  Even though palms have become very popular in San Francisco in recent years, there is still a stigma about planting palms in the City. The ingrained snobs in San Francisco feel that palms remind them of Los Angeles and that they don't "belong" in San Francisco.  Little do they realize that palms were growing in San Francisco when L.A. was still a sleepy little village.

It's really a pity that San Francisco still doesn't have a major palm garden. The Strybling Arboretum in Golden Gate Park probably has the most veariety of cool loving palms, but they are mixed with other trees in a romote area of the garden and they are hard to find or view. The University of Cal. Botanical Gardens in Berkeley has some nice palms, but again most are scattered around depending on their geographical origan and they are hard to find or view.

Probably the best concentration of palms in a public garden are growing in the Palmatum in Oakland, sponsered and maintained by the N. Calif. chapter, but we are limited by space there. Sorry to get off subject.

Dick

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merrill

QUOTING Malcolm:

A question for Tim/Merrill/Ed..

Is there a need to hand remove the male flowers?  I would have thought that these would have dropped  naturally before the female flowers became receptive and that removing the later spathe would be more important.  END QUOTE

Hi, Malcolm:

Nice to hear from you again!  The answer may vary with climate and timing of male vs. female flowers.  My Butia were selected for breeding on the basis of the interval of time between opening of male vs. female flowers.  In palms with a wider time gap, the male flowers all fell off so that just bagging the inflorescence prevented ANY outcrosses by condensation presumably bursting any pollen retained.

I've never had an outcross unless the bag was torn.  In the case of a palm with a shorter interval, tooth brushes and/or small wire brushes to remove male flowers (followed by bagging) have sufficed.  I apologise that the answer is wordier than the question!

Hi, Tim:  You're photos are a great public service.  Many Thanks

Best Wishes, merrill

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TimHopper

Here is a photo after all of the male flowers are removed. Note the inflorescence is less than half the size of when it opened. It is much easier to work with at this size. If you have limited time to spend on your own hybridization efforts, you can even trim it much closer to work with a hundred or so seeds. Even after trimming this inflorescence it has over  five hundred female flowers to potentially set fruit.  Now I'm just waiting for the female flowers to develop over the next few days. They will increase in size and start to form stamens which means they are getting near the receptive period. At that time I will wash the inflorescence by spraying with the garden hose and start covering it with a bag. You have to keep watching for male flowers that you may have missed. Those little buggers can really hide.Tim

Crossing010.jpg

Crossing013.jpg

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TimHopper

Sorry, Made a mistake....................

QUOTE :::They will increase in size and start to form stamens which means they are getting near the receptive period. :::END QUOTE

I meant to say "STIGMAS", not stamens. Stamens are the pollen bearers I think. Stigmas are the small petals that open on the end of the female flower. By the way, if you trim down your inflorescence to a smaller size, remember that the seeds that do set may only produce about 10% germination. Tim

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Kris

Dear Tim  :)

those pictures and step by step explaniation with illustration is very inteasting.

thanks for all the pains you have taken..

Love,

Kris  :)

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TimHopper

Kris, The part of gardening that I enjoy most is sharing/trading plants and techniques. I have enjoyed hybridizing over the last few years and hope others can learn too. I had a limited understanding of the hybridization process before I read some of Merrill's publications. He has helped me as well as others along by answering questions. I hope these photos will help others recognize the timing involved with successful hybridization. Tim

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

I'm following your pictoral and text explination of your hybridizing techniques with great interest. Thanks for all your efforts as I know your going to a lot of trouble putting this together.

I'm amazed at the interest shown in this thread, as it's had more hits and replys than any others recently. This tells me there are a lot of people out there who might live in marginal areas for growing palms, since most of the hybrids discussed are cold hardy palms and should take temps. down into the teens.

I'm particularly interested in seeing some of the crosses done with Parajubaea, as the Butia X Parajubaea cocoides cross has proven to be a good looking, fast growing palm and hardy down to at least 18F (-7.5C) with no damage. P. cocoides is the least hardy of the Parajubaeas, so it will be really interesting to see P. torallyi V. torallyi, or P. microcarpum or Sunkha which are supposed to be even more cold hardy crossed with a butia or a Jubaea.

In the San Francisco Bay area, we only have mature P. cocoides and they are few and far between and it's difficult to find pollen. With the others, there are no mature ones in the bay area....and I haven't heard of many in S. Cailf. I guess we will have to wait until the current crop of young trees mature. The Parajubaea crosses are particularly interesting because not only will they take cool temps, but also heat. I expect in 5 years from now we will be getting some interesting reports.

Dick

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freekypalmguy

Hi Dick,

Those sound like some very neat crosses. Do you have any picks of the Butia X P. cocoides? And where can I get my paws on one?

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PalmGuyWC

Hi Matt,

If you go to Travel Logs and look up Dick Douglas garden, the first picture posted is my Butia X Parajubaea.  As far as I know, there aren't many much larger than mine, because they are new.  Patrick Schafer is the guy to get in contact with, a Palm Society member, as I think he's the only guy that has done this cross. They are rare and expensive.

Dick

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malcthomas

Merrill...thanks for the reply and also thanks Tim for the photographic record...

Tim, the 'Butiagrus' seed that I got from you were incredibly small compared to any queen or Butia seed that I have seen locally...is that the norm for your hybrid seed? ..the seed of the Tauranga hybrid (mentioned above) reminded me of your seed and until remembering this, I did not collect much thinking that it was probably not viable...

Dick...My Parajubaea has four developing spathes at the moment...would it be feasable to get pollen to you from NZ?

regards...Malcolm

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TimHopper

(malcthomas @ Apr. 26 2007,02:22)

QUOTE
Merrill...thanks for the reply and also thanks Tim for the photographic record...

Tim, the 'Butiagrus' seed that I got from you were incredibly small compared to any queen or Butia seed that I have seen locally...is that the norm for your hybrid seed? ..the seed of the Tauranga hybrid (mentioned above) reminded me of your seed and until remembering this, I did not collect much thinking that it was probably not viable...

Dick...My Parajubaea has four developing spathes at the moment...would it be feasable to get pollen to you from NZ?

regards...Malcolm

Malcolm, The XButyagrus seeds that I sent you came from a mother butia that when self pollinated produced rather small and elongated seeds. When pollinated with queen pollen, the seeds were slightly smaller. They were also even more elongated and tapered with the three eyelets located closer to the sharp tip of the seed. I would have expected the seeds to be somewhere between the two parent trees.  About 25% of the seeds are usually deformed in some way. Some have empty chambers, one large chamber, two chambers rather than three, etc. Is your Jubutia getting close to flowering age? Tim

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malcthomas

"Is your Jubutia getting close to flowering age?"

Tim....my oldest one has flowered several times but has never set seed.  It is very Buita looking and I not overly worried whether I get seed from it or not.  Another one  is clearly intermediate of J and B and this is the one that I would like to try hybridising with... it is a little way off flowering yet..

regards....Malcolm

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PalmGuyWC

Of the 4 Jubaeas in my garden, only one has been blooming for several years.  They are all the same age and one is much taller than the blooming one with at least 20' of woody trunk. We noticed last week that the first spath is pushing out from the blooming one.  The first years it bloomed it only would produce two spaths, then in 2005 it had 3, then 2006 it had 4. We are hoping this progression will continue this year. The Jubaea, or hybrid seeds mature in only about 4 months, while it takes much longer for the Butias and the Syagrus may take up to 18 months.

One of my Syagrus spathes popped open last week and when Patrick climbed up to inspect it, he discovered there was not a single female flower so he cut the inflorescence off and collected the pollen. We speculated this might be because the spathe matured over our very cold winter this year.

Malcolm, thanks for the offer of the Parajubaea pollen. Since I'm only an observer, I'll check with Patrick who does the hybridizing.  How tall is your P. cocoides and has it bloomed before?  Patrick usually uses a butia as the mother plant as it takes so long for the Parajubaea seeds to mature and then germinate.

Dick

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TimHopper

The XButyagrus bract that I am working with is getting closer to forming stigmas on the female flowers. I expect it will be about 2-3 more days before they are receptive to pollen. Two days ago I cut a queen inflorescence and put it in a large paper bag in my garage. I suspend it horizontally to prevent mold. I also put the cut inside a ziploc bag filled with water and tape it on so the queen bract can drink while it opens male flowers inside the bag. Without the water most will fall off unopened which then have to be crushed. I opened the bag today and poured the male flowers into a bowl. In the second photo you can see quite a lot of pollen collected in the the bottom. tim

MVC-036S.jpg

MVC-037S.jpg

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TimHopper

I ran the male queen flowers through a sifter to get pure pollen...

MVC-045S.jpg

Here is a picture of the pure pollen, about eight teaspoons which I will store in the refrigerator in a glass jar for a couple of days....

MVC-046S.jpg

Tim

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TimHopper

Here are some updated photos of the XButyagrus female flowers as they near the receptive phase. The tips will soon open to form stigmas (small petals) and small nectar droplets will form on each.

MVC-039S.jpg

MVC-040S.jpg

MVC-041S.jpg

Tim

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Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Outstanding photos Tim! Thanks for keeping us updated. I can hardly wait to see this whole series of pictures. If it will help I will bring water to hurry the palm along. LOL.

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STEVE IN SO CAL

This is soooo cool....

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Kris

Dear Tim  :)

Great work_Buddy.very very impressive and you have exibhited eneromus patience and have done illustrations that are very self explainatery.all cannot have that attitude to

teach and explain what they are good at.

Double thumbs up ! to you... :)

And by the way that red sports car with neat set of alloys &

tyres are very attractive to my eyes...is it dodge_Viper ?

Thanks a Lot man,

Love,

Kris  :)

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NCpalmqueen

Tim

My Mule is really happy.  It is sooo purdy.  It's been HOT here.  We now need some rain, though.  

Please keep this pictorial essay going.   I would love to see the same pictorial for Jubxbutia, too....anyone?   Thanks!

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