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TimHopper

Jubutyagrus

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Nigel

Dick, Patrick had 5 seeds I think, that was all from his JxS cross. I consider myself very fortunate.

I didnt know he had managed an SxJ !!! The man is a miracle worker.

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Alan_Tampa

What are these at the USF Life Sciences Building in Tampa?

Alan

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PalmGuyWC

Nigel,

Yes, Patrick is truely remarkable and very dedicated.  When my palms are blooming in the in the heat of summer when it might be 105F (41C), he's at the top of a ladder swating honey bees with sweat running down his brow. I keep running into my air conditioned house to cool off. I honestly don't see how he does it, and it takes a lot of concentration to do what he's doing. You might say it's a labor of blood, sweat, and tears. He usually leaves here with blood somewhere, being pricked by a butia thorn, sweat with the heat.....and tears later on when no seeds are set, or nothing germinates.

The Jubaea is particularly hard to set seed with, no mater what pollen is being used. He often only gets a 10% set of seeds, or none at all. I only have one Jubaea that has been blooming for several years. I have 3 others the same size or larger that have not, but we keep wishing.

Dick

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merrill

Hi, Alan:

That is a very interesting XButyagrus.  It reminds me of one just to the west of the main drag in Umatilla, behind the RR tracks.  Umatilla had some interesting palms once, but they are disappearing.  I don't want to be a damn nuisance, but any chance of getting a close up of the trunk?  Best Wishes, merrill.

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Alan_Tampa

Are these acceptable?

Alan

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Alberto

(TimHopper @ Apr. 09 2007,13:17)

QUOTE

(PalmGuyWC @ Apr. 09 2007,10:03)

QUOTE
Pollinating (hybrid) techniques:

I have watched Patrick S. pollinating techniques many times, and he goes to extream lengths to prevent contamination of unwanted pollen but sometimes there is some contamination anyway.  He removes the male flowers usually a day or two after the flower spath opens. Most of the male flowers are at the tips of the rachilla, usually the lower half, and these are cut off. He then maticuliously removes all male flowers which are attached to the rachilla amongst the female flowers. This process can sometimes take hours. When all the male flowers are removed, the inflorescence and the ajacent exposed areas are sprayed down with a garden hose to remove any lingering pollen.

After the inflorescence drys, it is sprayed with a 10% acohol solution to kill any more lingering pollen that may remain. The entire inflorescence is then bagged with a light, tight meshed canvas bag and tied very tightly around the base of the peduncle. This  prevents unwanted pollen and honey bees from getting to the female flowers. The female flowers are considerably larger than the males and usually are not receptive to pollenisation for about 10 days, depending on the weather.  Warmer weather speeds up the process.

A few days before the female flowers reach anthesis, the canvas bag is removed and a carefull check to see if any male flowers were missed and if so, they are removed, and once again washed with a garden hose and an acohol spray, then bagged again.

The female flowers are then closely watched for anthesis.  Sometimes they are ready all at once, others depending on the tempratures, they open in an irregular fashion, and a couple of pollinating procedures may be required.

In theory the only time the female flowers might be exposed to contamination to unwanted pollen is when the pollinating process is going on.  Sometimes there are a few hungry bees swarming around that have to be swated away during the process. The pollinating process is tedious as each female flower has to be brushed with pollen and this can take some time.

After pollinating, the inflorescence is once again bagged untill the fruit begins to form.  After the fruit is over pea sized, the bag is removed and then a screen is installed over the inflorescence to prevent squirrls from eating the fruit, and then there is a long waiting process for the fruit to mature.  With Jubaeas or Butias this can be a matter of months, with Syagrus up to 18 months, with Parajubaeas.....a long time.

With hybridising, it's a hit and miss proposition.  Often times only a small precentage of the hybrid seed will be viable, sometimes none at all. Some palms of the same species will be more receptive to hybridisation than others. This is an on going learning process and there are still a lot of unanswered questions.  Does temperature have anything to do with the success rate?  Was the pollen viable? Were the trees compatible? Was the timing  right? There are still a lot of unanswered questions to hybridising, and sometimes there seems to be no rhime or reason to the success rate.

Mind you.....all of this is usually taking place perched on the top of a tall ladder, squeezed in between fronds, in swealtering heat, swating honey bees, and it's tedious work, so if you think the hybrids are expensive, there is a very good reason. It's not easy.

After all this, there is the germinating process, then growing the seedlings up to a size where their adult characteristics began to show. This can take another 2 or 3 years. Excuse my spelling.....no spell checker here.

Dick

Dick, An excellent description of successful technique. The same techniques I have used minus the alcohol (although I usually have a cold beer). I am going to capture all of these steps with close-up descriptive photos which I will post in a couple of weeks. Im sure there are some folks out there that would like to give it a shot. You can use the same steps on many other compatible genera. Tim

I followed all this steps,inclusice spraying with 10%alcohol solution,to make my hybrid B.eriospatha X B.microspadix. At the time I learned this steps by Eric himself! Some of you (Eric, Nigel)has now this hybrid.

 I am planning to cross my Lytocarium wedellianum with queen the following season!I saw it makes an interesting palm!

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Alberto

(Alberto @ Apr. 08 2007,10:32)

QUOTE
Here is a photo of my Jubutyagrus that is now 3 months in the ground. For comparison 2 seedlings (of the same age(1year11m))of Butyagrus.

The Jubutyagrus has broader,longer leaflets and heavier texture then Butyagrus.

Tim,this Butyagrus are from your seeds and the Jubutyagrus from Eric´s cross. Interesting the difference that is clear since this seedling stage!

 BTW Have you managed to save some of the hybrid seeds/seedlings that I sent you in the past?

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merrill

Hi, Alan:

Thank you for the high quality of your photos.  I'm unable to match your quality.  I suspect both yours and mine are reverse XButyagrus, i. e., fathered by Butia.  The slim, ringed trunk tends to support this

This palm seems to me to be very similar to the one you posted, except yours, because of the freshness of the rings, looks like it grew very much faster.  Is the trunk of yours self-cleaning?  This one doesn't receive much care; it hasn't grown appreciably in about 20 years.  They've nailed a box of some kind to the trunk.  Thank you for showing me that palm.  Best Wishes, merrill

http://www.arborwood.com/awforum....all.jpg

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merrill

The XJubutyagrus everettii kindly posted by Richard has solid endocarp; don't think I've seen a single endosperm in the many years we've observed its huge infructescences.  It survived the famous 10F freeze in the 1980's.  Our other mature XJubutyagrus is just as sterile.  merrill

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TimHopper

(Alberto @ Apr. 08 2007,10:32)

QUOTE
Here is a photo of my Jubutyagrus that is now 3 months in the ground. For comparison 2 seedlings (of the same age(1year11m))of Butyagrus.

The Jubutyagrus has broader,longer leaflets and heavier texture then Butyagrus.

Alberto, The hybrid seeds that you sent me a couple of years ago were dug from my outdoor germination beds by squirrels and carried away. I have learned the value of guarding my beds with wire mesh. I'm glad to see that some of my hybrid seeds germinated for you. The two XButyagrus shown with your XJubutyagrus certainly look familiar to me in form. The seeds that I sent to you are from the same parent trees that produced this XButyagrus of mine. I am currently working with this one to attempt back-croosing with syagrus  (Butia x Syagrus) x Syagrus. Tim

Palms004.jpg

xButyagrus.jpg

Temp028.jpg

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TimHopper

(merrill @ Apr. 11 2007,01:38)

QUOTE
The XJubutyagrus everettii kindly posted by Richard has solid endocarp; don't think I've seen a single endosperm in the many years we've observed its huge infructescences.  It survived the famous 10F freeze in the 1980's.  Our other mature XJubutyagrus is just as sterile.  merrill

Merrill, Your XJubutyagrus is magnificent. And thanks to Richard Travis for posting the photo. I would like to see it in person. Is it at your house in Gainsville? Tim

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jam99

Tim,

amazing growth for a palm in less than 3 years! That palm must be on steroids :D

Cheers, Jan

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PalmGuyWC

I spoke with Patrick last night, and he informed me that I was incorrect in stating that the Butia X Jubaea had only been crossed with Butia and Syagrus. He also managed to cross it with Jubaea, but it only produced very few seeds. (Now small seedlings). Repeated attempts crossing it with Parajubaea have failed.

Tim, your Butyagrus is a beautiful speciman, but I notice it's very "upright" or strict, but maybe that's because you keep it well trimmed. All of mine tend to droop, or at least the lower fronds are at a 90 degree angle to the trunk.

I gave a butyagrus to a friend some years back, and it was very "droopey," more so than the others. His is blooming now, so maybe I can get him to post a picture.

I have a question that maybe some of you can answer. When the flowers reach anthesis, mine exue a lot of clear necture and often there are tiny drops covering each flower, particularly in the early morning when it's cool. Does anyone know if the pollen can penitrate the necture and reach the flowers?  Or, do you think it should be brushed away or washed off before pollenating?  I'm not sure, but I think Patrick brushes it off or washes it off as sometimes the flowers are a stickey mess early in the morning.

In the summer when the palms are flowering it's often 90 F by 10 AM and in our dry heat the moisture in the necture evaporates and it becomes crustey. I would think this would prevent the pollen from reaching the flowers. I think Patrick has determined that his best success is in the early morning and sometimes he's out at the first day light pollenating. Our nights are cool so it's certainly more comfortable to work in those conditions. Our N. Calif. climate is weird and the long day nights are usually in the low 60's but can move to the 90's in a matter of minutes as the sun gets higher. Jacket weather one minute, T-shirt the next.

Any comments would be appreciated. We have often wondered if the necture on the flowers facilitates the germination of the pollen grains or if it's only to attract honey bees.

Dick

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TimHopper

Dick, From what I understand, the female flowers are most receptive as they are secreting nectar. I always leave them with the tiny droplet intact for pollenation. I apply pollen twice daily (morning,afternoon) for about four days during the receptive period until all of the female flower petals have turned brown. This may be overkill, but it improves seed set and reduces the possibilty of foreign pollen contamination. I have seen female flower receptiveness staggered over several days. Tim

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PalmGuyWC

Hi Tim,

One of the drawbacks here is that Patrick lives far north of me and it takes 2.5+ hours to get to my place. To make it here by daylight, he has to get up at 3:30 AM to catch the early morning.  Sometimes, if there are several inflorescences to be pollinated, he will come the night before and stay over to get an early start. With the cost of gas in California, 2 or 3 trips a weeks can get quite expensive. With taxes, we have the most expensive gas in the nation in N. Calif. For some reason we always pay more in N. Calif. than they do in S. Calif., yet we have many refineries in my own county.

Back to palms.....When warm weather finally arrives here, the lower two ranks of fronds of my Jubaeas turn yellow and they are soon trimmed off before the petioles get hard and woody. The "boots" remain on the trunk for a couple of years and then they are easy to pull off.  I just pulled off all the old boots and it gives the apperance that the trunks have grown another 3 feet all at once. My tallest one has reached the limits of my extention ladder and this will be the last year of maincuring. It will have to self clean from now on, but I hate to see ratty old fronds adhering to the trunks. 25 feet looks lots longer from the top of a ladder than from the bottom. Actually, yesterday when I was working alone and on the top of the ladder, I placed a telephone near by in case I fell off and broke something. This made me think I should not be doing this.

Dick

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STEVE IN SO CAL

This made me think you should not be doing this....

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Kris

Hey Tim that house and its paint colours are preety neat and

pleasing to the eye,nevertheless the palms do add beauty

to your al ready beautiful house !  :)

Love,

Kris  :)

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merrill

Hi, Tim:

Here is a photo of the late Charlie Raulerson with his [butia X Syagrus] X Syagrus.  It seems unique among all Butia hybrids in its plumose fronds.  Charlie did a tremendous amount of work producing this hybrid; as everyone knows the Butyagrus mother is virtually sterile.   QUOTING Tim: I am currently working with this one to attempt back-croosing with syagrus  (Butia x Syagrus) x Syagrus. Tim END QUOTE    We all wish Tim the very best in producing this unique hybrid.  Will Tim's also be plumose?  I certainly hope so, and in fact expect so!

QUOTING TIM: Merrill, Your XJubutyagrus is magnificent. And thanks to Richard Travis for posting the photo. I would like to see it in person. Is it at your house in Gainsville? Tim" END QUOTE.  Tim, you still have a standing invitation.  I'd like to be there to show you all of the palms, but the XJubutyagrus is outside the fence next to the mailbox.  Best, merrill

         

A QUESTION FROM DICK: "I have a question that maybe some of you can answer. When the flowers reach anthesis, mine exude a lot of clear necture and often there are tiny drops covering each flower, particularly in the early morning when it's cool. Does anyone know if the pollen can penitrate the necture and reach the flowers?  Or, do you think it should be brushed away or washed off before pollenating?  I'm not sure, but I think Patrick brushes it off or washes it off as sometimes the flowers are a stickey mess early in the morning. END OF QUESTION.

Hi, Dick:

In my opinion, the drop of exudate provides a longer path for the pollen tube to travel, which might give an advantage to the undesired but more closely related selfing pollen.  One doesn't need to help the path of the extraneous pollen.  I always give the stem of the inflorescence a sharp blow to knock off most of the nectar, and thus produce a shorter path for the presumably less related pollen one wishes to serve as father.  If pollinating individual flowers, the excess fluid becomes a nuisanceI  This is a good reason for dusting the inflorescence en masse. I haven't seen any reduction in good seed set from removing this nectar.

In reference to a Dick's later posting:  I'm afraid I can't climb ladders at all any more; wish I could. Am growing a bunch of JXB that won't require ladders for a few years

post-103-1176350478_thumb.jpg

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merrill

Hi, Tim:

I neglected to mention that both Charlie and his unusual [bXQ]XQ died shortly after the photo was taken.  There is a black&white photo somewhere that is just a month or so larger [which is a noticeable difference!]  I certainly encourage you to produce more of these hybrids.  Queens produce such copious pollen that precautions might be required.  Please let me know when you (or anyone else) can visit these palms in GVL.  

There was what looked like a very aged JubaeaXQueen at Mdm. Ganna-Walska's Garden [i. e., Lotusland] about 20-25 years ago.  It seemed to be on its last legs.  It was in at the end of a row of Jubaea, w/ a slimmer trunk and foliage more the color of S. romanzoffianum than the rest of the row.

Best Wishes, merrill

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TimHopper

Merrill, Thanks for the photo of Charlie Raulersons inspiring back-cross. I plan to keep trying variable XButyagrus from different broods until I trip over the golden combination. I appreciate your sharing experience with all of us. With your list of hybridization successes, I consider your input an unquestionable guideline.

Dick, I take my hat off to Patrick. He must really enjoy what he is doing to drive that distance to do the necessary work involved. Although from what I have seen of your garden, it makes me want to drive there from Florida. I saw the thread in the travel section with several photos. Tim

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PalmGuyWC

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your compliments and your welcome anytime to come visit. I'm lucky to have most of the palms growing together here for Patrick's experiments, except for a blooming Parajubaea. The one I have was burned in the winter freezes, but its begining to grow again. Unfortunately, there aren't many Parajubaeas of blooming size in the Bay Area, and the ones that are, are becoming inaccessable because of height, but in a few years there should be, with a renewed interest in them, and so many new Palm Society members growing them. I'm also looking forward to your photo journey on pollenating.

Merrill, you and I are really dating ourselves, but I remember many years ago there was a Jubaea X Syagrus growing in the back of Fairchild Gardens.  It was growing near the mangroves in very poor soil (limestone) in the very back of the garden and it didn't recieve any irrigation.  It was a very sickley looking palm and only held aboout 4 fronds at a time. I think it finally died of neglect or the Miami heat. It will be interesting to see this cross growing under ideal conditions.  I expect it might do better in a cooler climate than Florida, but who knows?

I would imagine these hybrids would do well for our Southern Australia and New Zeeland friends. Are any of you guys south of the equator growing any of these palms?

Dick

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PalmGuyWC

Excuse!  "NEW ZEALAND."

Dick

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merrill

Hi, Tim:

Please don't forget I'm saving for you some of my XButyagrus with the most varied parentage imaginable; most are at Forest Grove, 15 miles due west of Gville. Please give me notice.  OTOH, isn't a Frontrunners meeting coming soon near you?

Hi, Dick:

There were a total of about three unusual (to say the least) Butiinae hybrids at FTG, but it was difficult for me, at least, to be sure what they were because of their poor condition.  OTOH, the JXB, labelled Jubaea for years, was fine a couple of years ago, and stamen counts and general appearance make it appear as JXB.  Best Wishes, merrill

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Alberto

(PalmGuyWC @ Apr. 12 2007,09:16)

QUOTE
Excuse!  "NEW ZEALAND."

Dick

The origin of the name of New Zealand is after the province of Zeeland (Sea-land) in the Netherlands.

  In Dutch it is ´´Nieuw Zeeland´´:)

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TimHopper

Should (JXB)XB start produducing seeds at about the same size and age as Butia. Many of the local Butia start producing seed with less than 8 feet overall height with 12-16 inch diameter at ground level.  Tim

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merrill

Jubutia # 5

http://www.arborwood.com/awforum....tom.jpg

Jubutia # 6: These palms were planted about 1999.  Altho this palm has been neglected for the last two years, it is 16 feet tall:

http://www.arborwood.com/awforum....tom.jpg

Hi, Tim:

There is a good bit of variation in my 13 [(JXB)XB]XB; there is a fair amount of difference in their growing conditions, but less variation in their form.  One started blooming at about 5 years, and by the 8th year in the ground six had bloomed.  They have been neglected the past two years due to illness.  These had quite large, healthy seed.  All were successfully self or sibling pollinated, which was almost completely unsuccessful on their (JXB)XB mother, where only outcrosses were possible. These have more J appearance than one might expect from such a late descendant, but they all got their cytoplasmic heritance in a direct female line from their Jubaea great grandmother.   Best Wishes, merrill

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Alberto

Merril, very nice palms!

Are this [(JxB)xB]xB or (JxB)xB ?

Dick ,how sure you are your BxJ is a F1 and not a (BxJ)xB?

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STEVE IN SO CAL

While I have all of you hybridizers in one spot, I would like to get your opinion of this plant. It came with a bunch of Jubaea seedlings, but as you can see, it's not a Jubaea(note small Jubaeas in foreground from same crop) The seeds were supposedly collected from the Jubes at Mission Bay, San Diego. Could this be a hybrid, or is it just freakish luck to have a Butia in the mix of seedlings. I got these from Ron LAwyer, and I don't believe he'd even grow Butia.

IMG_0477.jpg

IMG_0478.jpg

IMG_0479.jpg

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neoflora

Steve, I did have a few crosses. I thought we had them separated. It is possible it is a cross. I wasn't growing any Butias at the time. The seeds of the crosses came from a reliable source. F2 hybrids.

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STEVE IN SO CAL

(neoflora @ Apr. 14 2007,11:07)

QUOTE
Steve, I did have a few crosses. I thought we had them separated. It is possible it is a cross. I wasn't growing any Butias at the time. The seeds of the crosses came from a reliable source. F2 hybrids.

Ron...so you think it's mostly Butia with a little Jubaea thrown in? It sure is fast...only 2.75 years from a small one gal. ...certainly has the speed of a hybrid.

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PalmGuyWC

Steve,

From the rapid growth, compaired to the Jubaeas,  and the wide leaf bases, I would guess that your palm is a Jubaea X Butia hybrid. Are there any Butias growing nearby the Jubaeas at Mission Bay? One can never be 100% sure when dealing with hybrids.

It might be a long wait, but when your palm blooms, if the spathes are tomentose, then you can be sure it's a hybrid. Palm growers tend to look down on Butias, and for that reason, not many grow Butias, but I have some that have turned out to be spectacular. Of course if I lived in S. Calif. and could grow so many other nice palms, I might have a different view. On the other hand, if California suffers another winter like this last one, a nice fresh looking butia might look nice standing among the other burned out, or dead, palms.

Dick

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STEVE IN SO CAL

Dick...the wide leaf bases are what makes me think that there's some Jubaea in there.

I'm with you on the Butias...I like them

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PalmGuyWC

Alberto,

As I explained earlier in this thread, I'm 95% sure my hybrid is an F1 hybrid. I have no reason to think otherwise. If you could see the palm in the "flesh" so to speak, I think you would agree.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned: As it was explained to me F2 hybrids, are on a bell curve, that is....the middle of the curve will produce trees that most resemble the mother plant while at each end of the curve, the plants will most resemble one of the parents. Any comments?

Dick

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TimHopper

(merrill @ Apr. 14 2007,01:53)

QUOTE
Jubutia # 5

http://www.arborwood.com/awforum....tom.jpg

Jubutia # 6: These palms were planted about 1999.  Altho this palm has been neglected for the last two years, it is 16 feet tall:

http://www.arborwood.com/awforum....tom.jpg

Hi, Tim:

There is a good bit of variation in my 13 [(JXB)XB]XB; there is a fair amount of difference in their growing conditions, but less variation in their form.  One started blooming at about 5 years, and by the 8th year in the ground six had bloomed.  They have been neglected the past two years due to illness.  These had quite large, healthy seed.  All were successfully self or sibling pollinated, which was almost completely unsuccessful on their (JXB)XB mother, where only outcrosses were possible. These have more J appearance than one might expect from such a late descendant, but they all got their cytoplasmic heritance in a direct female line from their Jubaea great grandmother.   Best Wishes, merrill

Merrill, Have you germinated seed from the [(JXB)xB]xB Tim

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merrill

Steve in So Cal:  The fiber replacing the lower teeth on the petiole (as in your fourth photo) is the best indicator of Jubaea lineage in Butia that I've seen. For example, in that photo, the heavy fiber is easier to see than the other Jubaea characters. Your  particular palm might be several variations of BXJ or JXB etc, but that fiber is telltale.. We've had very fast overall growth rates and very heavy fiber on even third generation (i. e., {[JXB]XB}XB) hybrids.  - merrill

Tim:

These {[JXB]XB}XB seed are being germinated by someone very skilled further up the coast in a fairly cool environment.  Next time I'm in GVL I'll check the few I kept. Both sets are from last August, no earlier.  Time will tell! - merrill

QUOTING TIM:Dick, From what I understand, the female flowers are most receptive as they are secreting nectar. I always leave them with the tiny droplet intact for pollenation. I apply pollen twice daily (morning,afternoon) for about four days during the receptive period until all of the female flower petals have turned brown. This may be overkill, but it improves seed set and reduces the possibilty of foreign pollen contamination. I have seen female flower receptiveness staggered over several days. Tim END QUOTE

I agree in toto. A large drop of nectar on the pistil lengthens the path for the pollen tube.  This might favor the more closely related pollen one is trying to avoid.  I shake off the excess fluid on the pistils before dusting on the selected pollen by diluting it w/ talc and blowing it out of a large bore needle on the syringe. This gives very good seed set much more easily.- merrill

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Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Can anyone answer this? I know many South American palm species can hybridize with other S.A. species. So would it be possible that Juania australis would hybridize with any of the others?

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merrill

Hi, Jeff:

Hope all is well!

My apologies for telling you something you probably already know:  Juania is a single-species genus; the relatively primitive Ceroxylon, Oraniopsis, Louvelia, and Ravenia are the most closely related genera acording to Genera Palmarum.  Best Wishes, merrill

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Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Merrill, thanks for the answer. I had expected that, but still wanted to ask because of the possibility of someone trying it anyway. I also wanted to just bump the thread back up to the top because it's one of the most interesting threads I have followed in a while. Thanks for all your input. I always learn something from everything you post.

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STEVE IN SO CAL

Thanks, Merril, for your thoughts on my possible hybrid. I'm looking at it in a whole new light these days.

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PalmGuyWC

Thanks Jeff for bumping this thread up.  This discussion has been very informative for me and I love all those nice photos. The one thing that hasn't been discussed is pollen gathering, preperation, and storage.

I wonder how many times pollen can be frozen, unfrozen, then frozen again. The one thing I do know is.....it must be totally dry for freezing and then used. Are there any special techniques that you use? It's always nice to have fresh pollen, but that's not always possible.

Dick

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