Jubutyagrus

[sergiskan]

Sergio, I am glad that they arrived in good condition. I have sent quite a few of these XJubutyagrus to parts of Europe and I am looking forward to future reports (and photos) of how they are growing there. Thanks, Tim

...hi Tim.

...now them has started to grow again... ...good news ...

...regards and thank you.

sergio.

[sergiskan]

Lucky you Sergio, your request did pass through...

I have less chance, maybe i will have someone to receive them...

thanks Rafael...

good luck in your mission...

regars

[TimHopper]

The largest of my XJubutyagrus is starting to grow pinnate leaves. Compared to the mother Jubaea x Butia, it is very dark green and softer foliage.

For comparison, here is a XJubutyagrus and a JxBxB, same age from the same mother.

[Gallop]

Here is one of mine for comparison. Jubutyagrus

And just for kicks a SXJ

[mjff]

The largest of my XJubutyagrus is starting to grow pinnate leaves. Compared to the mother Jubaea x Butia, it is very dark green and softer foliage.

For comparison, here is a XJubutyagrus and a JxBxB, same age from the same mother.

Tim, I got the 6 seedlings you sent. They look great. I don't normally like bare root plants (especially when we are on a run of 100F days stretching back over 3 weeks now), but I put them in 4 gallon citrus pots that I just bumped some Jubaeas up from, and they seem to be pretty happy so far. I'm keeping them on my front porch, which only gets morning sun, until they have a chance to recover. Were they in full sun before?

[sonoranfans]

I also just received 3 jubutiagrus seedlings this past week from Tim. I put them in 3 gallon nursery containers, and they look very healthy/happy. My first reaction to them was that they are among the deepest green palms I have. I put them on the east side of the house, 4hrs morning sun, and they look great. I have kept them wet, watering once each day and initially fertilized them with humic acid/kelp to stimulate the roots. They are clearly a darker shade of green than my butiagrus and montgomeryiana hybrids. I am looking forward to seeing the variation of larger ones on this forum as they grow.

[TimHopper]

Paul yours are looking good in the ground. That SxJ looks really healthy too. You must be pampering them.

Martin, They have been in on-and-off full day sun for about 6 hours a day. I'm sure they will grow well in full sun one acclimated from re-planting.

Tom, All of mine are very dark green also. The mother is a grayish-green, so it must be the queen influence. Here a couple of photos of the parents of my XJubutyagrus. Here is the mother Jubaea x Butia in my front yard.

And the Queen in the back by the pool. It is so big, that I can't get a good photo of it. This shot is from a lookout balcony on top of my house whith elevation of 38 feet above the ground.

[mjff]

Beautiful palms Tim. I hope the offspring turn out as nice. I think I'll put all of them in the greenhouse for the winter, and plant one next spring.

[Nigel]

Tim, are you using an F1, F2, F3 JxB ? It seems to have retained some J characteristics very well, and at what age did it flower ?

[TimHopper]

Nigel, It is an F2 and flowered at about 6 years old (last July). I need to get some newer photos to show more detail. It did flower much earlier than I expected, which must be a trait carried forward by the Butia side. It's siblings may or may not have flowered at the same age and size. I know there is usually a lot of variation among these hybids even within the same brood. Unfortunately it has not flowered again since last Summer. When it does, I am looking forward to attempting other crosses with this Jubutia. Tim

[Nigel]

Nigel, It is an F2 and flowered at about 6 years old (last July). I need to get some newer photos to show more detail. It did flower much earlier than I expected, which must be a trait carried forward by the Butia side. It's siblings may or may not have flowered at the same age and size. I know there is usually a lot of variation among these hybids even within the same brood. Unfortunately it has not flowered again since last Summer. When it does, I am looking forward to attempting other crosses with this Jubutia. Tim

Thanks Tim, very impressive indeed for an F2. Can it be a selfed cross, doesnt look like it has 75% Butia like most of those F2 Butia backcrosses. An excellent palm to work with indeed.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Nigel

[Nigel]

Further question for Tim..... what substrate do you use to keep them so green and healthy. I presume you get high rainfall there.... do you keep them out of the rain too ?

[TimHopper]

Nigel, I don't think my mother Jubutia could be described as 75% Butia. Actually, Jubutia back-crossed with butia would be 62.5% Butia. Further influence may be that most crosses are genetically more like the mother from the initial cross, which was Jubaea. I chose the Jubutia F2 for this cross because I felt the added Butia influence would make the offspring more adaptable to a wider range of climates and soil types. I'm not sure if my Jubutia will self pollenate because I have always removed the male flowers long before they opened. I did isolate about twelve female flowers and pollenate them with butia pollen for F3's of which four germinated. As for the substate that I use, it is a growers blend which is soiless. Mostly ground Canadian moss with some other fillers. I use Nutricote fertilizer (sold at HD as Dynamite) which is similar to Osmocote Plus. I am growing the seelings outdoors and they do receive a good amount of rain which they seem to like. I only occasionally water them when necessary.

[Nigel]

Nigel, I don't think my mother Jubutia could be described as 75% Butia. Actually, Jubutia back-crossed with butia would be 62.5% Butia. Further influence may be that most crosses are genetically more like the mother from the initial cross, which was Jubaea. I chose the Jubutia F2 for this cross because I felt the added Butia influence would make the offspring more adaptable to a wider range of climates and soil types. I'm not sure if my Jubutia will self pollenate because I have always removed the male flowers long before they opened. I did isolate about twelve female flowers and pollenate them with butia pollen for F3's of which four germinated. As for the substate that I use, it is a growers blend which is soiless. Mostly ground Canadian moss with some other fillers. I use Nutricote fertilizer (sold at HD as Dynamite) which is similar to Osmocote Plus. I am growing the seelings outdoors and they do receive a good amount of rain which they seem to like. I only occasionally water them when necessary.

Hi Tim,

A Jubaea x Butia F1 will inherit one DNA strand from each parent, ie 50/50 gene division.

These 2 genes will combine together ,and when the DNA is passed to the F2 generation will divide again 50/50 , and because the genes are randomly combined the gene strand passed on will be a random mix of both Butia and Jubaea ( reason why F2,s are variable and F1,s constant ) but basically approx 25% of both Jubaea and Butia are passed on. Therefore with 50% coming from the new DNA donor, in case of Butia the new gene combination would be 75%Butia ( 50% PLUS 25% ) and 25% Jubaea.

Your palm seems to have a huge amount of Jubaea ... I dont see anywhere near the butia characteristics normal in a Butia backcross, which makes me think that maybe yours could be a self cross.

Anyway, it is a maginificent specimen and I cant think of a better plant to use in your Jubutyagrus production.

[TimHopper]

Nigel, Thanks for your compiments and the time that you dedicated to providing the information above. You have started me thinking, and now I am not sure that I understand F3's and F4's. If a Jubutia is back-crossed with Butia and the offspring are 75% Butia and 25% Jubaea, and you back-crossed the F2 with Butia again which you said adds 25% Butia, would that offspring be 100% Butia. Or in other words, does Back-crossing a Jubutia F2 with Butia again completely erase the Jubaea?

[TimHopper]

Nigel, Thanks for your compiments and the time that you dedicated to providing the information above. You have started me thinking, and now I am not sure that I understand F3's and F4's. If a Jubutia is back-crossed with Butia and the offspring are 75% Butia and 25% Jubaea, and you back-crossed the F2 with Butia again which you said adds 25% Butia, would that offspring be 100% Butia. Or in other words, does Back-crossing a Jubutia F2 with Butia again completely erase the Jubaea?

If so, Would there even be an F3 or F4 ? My understanding was that a Jubutia crossed with Butia would add 12.5% butia creating an F3. Then crossing the F3 with Butia would add 6.25% creating an F4. I thought that back-crossing over and over with the same species would have gradually lessening effect since those genes and characteristics already existed in previous generations. I would appreciate some further explanation for my own understanding. Thanks, Tim

[mjff]

Tim,

The math works like this:

F1: 50% * 100% Jubaea = 50% Jubaea + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 50% Jubaea and 50% Butia

F2: 50% * (50% Jubaea + 50% Butia) = 25% Jubaea and 25% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 25% Jubaea and 75% Butia

F3: 50% * (25% Jubaea + 75% Butia) = 12.5% Jubaea and 37.5% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 12.5% Jubaea and 87.5% Butia

F4: 6.25% Jubaea and 93.75% Butia

F5: 3.125% Jubaea and 96.875% Butia

These are averages though. When you cross something you don't necessarily get exactly 50% of the genes from one parent and 50% from the other.

When you cross a Boer Goat buck with a bunch of Spanish Goat does you wind up with some that look nearly 100% Boer, some that appear nearly 100% Spanish, and a bunch that are in between. On average the offspring are 50/50, but there is a distribution with a very small number being nearly pure one of the parents and larger numbers that have a mix of genes. Out of 10,000 offspring maybe 1 is 100% Boer, 10 are 90%, 50 are 80%, 500 are 70%, 2,500 are 60%, 3,878 are 50%, 2,500 are 40%, 500 are 30%, 50 are 20%, 10 are 10%, and 1 is 0% (I made the #'s up but you get the idea). That's the way it works with livestock, I assume the same is true with plants.

[TimHopper]

Thanks Martin, That helps me understand that in F2's, 3's, and 4's, the percentages represent the probability of variation. Thanks to you and Nigel for being so descriptive in explaining the details. Tim

[Nigel]

Thanks Martin, That helps me understand that in F2's, 3's, and 4's, the percentages represent the probability of variation. Thanks to you and Nigel for being so descriptive in explaining the details. Tim

I hope Merrill ( whose knowledge goes well above mine) can chip in here, because inherited characteristics do not solely come from DNA, and at this point my knowledge departs.....

[Rafael]

Tim,

The math works like this:

F1: 50% * 100% Jubaea = 50% Jubaea + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 50% Jubaea and 50% Butia

F2: 50% * (50% Jubaea + 50% Butia) = 25% Jubaea and 25% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 25% Jubaea and 75% Butia

F3: 50% * (25% Jubaea + 75% Butia) = 12.5% Jubaea and 37.5% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 12.5% Jubaea and 87.5% Butia

F4: 6.25% Jubaea and 93.75% Butia

F5: 3.125% Jubaea and 96.875% Butia

These are averages though. When you cross something you don't necessarily get exactly 50% of the genes from one parent and 50% from the other.

When you cross a Boer Goat buck with a bunch of Spanish Goat does you wind up with some that look nearly 100% Boer, some that appear nearly 100% Spanish, and a bunch that are in between. On average the offspring are 50/50, but there is a distribution with a very small number being nearly pure one of the parents and larger numbers that have a mix of genes. Out of 10,000 offspring maybe 1 is 100% Boer, 10 are 90%, 50 are 80%, 500 are 70%, 2,500 are 60%, 3,878 are 50%, 2,500 are 40%, 500 are 30%, 50 are 20%, 10 are 10%, and 1 is 0% (I made the #'s up but you get the idea). That's the way it works with livestock, I assume the same is true with plants.

It is not easy to understand the F1 to F3 averages.

Could you tell me wich one is appropriate to the following description, please? (Jubaea x Butia) x Queen

Thanks in advance

[mjff]

Tim,

The math works like this:

F1: 50% * 100% Jubaea = 50% Jubaea + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 50% Jubaea and 50% Butia

F2: 50% * (50% Jubaea + 50% Butia) = 25% Jubaea and 25% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 25% Jubaea and 75% Butia

F3: 50% * (25% Jubaea + 75% Butia) = 12.5% Jubaea and 37.5% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 12.5% Jubaea and 87.5% Butia

F4: 6.25% Jubaea and 93.75% Butia

F5: 3.125% Jubaea and 96.875% Butia

These are averages though. When you cross something you don't necessarily get exactly 50% of the genes from one parent and 50% from the other.

When you cross a Boer Goat buck with a bunch of Spanish Goat does you wind up with some that look nearly 100% Boer, some that appear nearly 100% Spanish, and a bunch that are in between. On average the offspring are 50/50, but there is a distribution with a very small number being nearly pure one of the parents and larger numbers that have a mix of genes. Out of 10,000 offspring maybe 1 is 100% Boer, 10 are 90%, 50 are 80%, 500 are 70%, 2,500 are 60%, 3,878 are 50%, 2,500 are 40%, 500 are 30%, 50 are 20%, 10 are 10%, and 1 is 0% (I made the #'s up but you get the idea). That's the way it works with livestock, I assume the same is true with plants.

It is not easy to understand the F1 to F3 averages.

Could you tell me wich one is appropriate to the following description, please? (Jubaea x Butia) x Queen

Thanks in advance

25% Jubaea, 25% Butia and 50% Syagrus

[Rafael]

Tim,

The math works like this:

F1: 50% * 100% Jubaea = 50% Jubaea + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 50% Jubaea and 50% Butia

F2: 50% * (50% Jubaea + 50% Butia) = 25% Jubaea and 25% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 25% Jubaea and 75% Butia

F3: 50% * (25% Jubaea + 75% Butia) = 12.5% Jubaea and 37.5% Butia + 50% * 100% Butia = 50% Butia = 12.5% Jubaea and 87.5% Butia

F4: 6.25% Jubaea and 93.75% Butia

F5: 3.125% Jubaea and 96.875% Butia

These are averages though. When you cross something you don't necessarily get exactly 50% of the genes from one parent and 50% from the other.

When you cross a Boer Goat buck with a bunch of Spanish Goat does you wind up with some that look nearly 100% Boer, some that appear nearly 100% Spanish, and a bunch that are in between. On average the offspring are 50/50, but there is a distribution with a very small number being nearly pure one of the parents and larger numbers that have a mix of genes. Out of 10,000 offspring maybe 1 is 100% Boer, 10 are 90%, 50 are 80%, 500 are 70%, 2,500 are 60%, 3,878 are 50%, 2,500 are 40%, 500 are 30%, 50 are 20%, 10 are 10%, and 1 is 0% (I made the #'s up but you get the idea). That's the way it works with livestock, I assume the same is true with plants.

It is not easy to understand the F1 to F3 averages.

Could you tell me wich one is appropriate to the following description, please? (Jubaea x Butia) x Queen

Thanks in advance

25% Jubaea, 25% Butia and 50% Syagrus

Thanks! Wow, i have something...

[Zeeth]

I wonder what kind of breeding it would take to produce one that was 33% of all 3...

[palmaddict]

Being a biologist by career when you cross a Butia with a Jubaea all offspring produced will have a collection of pairs of chromosomes (the numbers of pairs of chromosomes can vary in plants and it is one reason why certain palms cannot be cross bred). Lets pick chromosome 14 which will be a pair. One of those 14 chromosomes will have come from the Butia and the other will come from the Jubaea. Variation in phenotype in the offspring of the original cross results because the individual male and female gametes (pollen for example) do not have the same genetic contribution. The Butia pollen granules have different assortments of Butia genes and the same for the female gametes for the Jubaea.

During meiosis (the production of sperm and egg) two processes occur which create genetic variation. The first is independent assortment where pairs of chromosomes line up to be ultimately segregated during gamete production but since you have dozens of pairs of chromosomes lining up in this process there is nearly an infinite combination of segregation products. For example with the 14 chromosome during segregation the Butia chromosome could segregate to the left and the Jubaea chromosome to the right. Or vice versa. Well if you consider there might be 40 chromosomes each making a random segregation decision the number of possibilities is enormous.

The second process that creates genetic variation is something referred to as recombination. When the Butia chromosome 14 pairs with the Jubaea chromosome 14 there is a process whereby part of the Butia chromosome is transferred and exchanged with the Jubaea chromosome. This ends up creating two hybrid chromosomes which now both carry portions of chromome 14 that were in part derived from Butia and part Jubaea. This recombination occurs on a random basis so each pollen product is unlikely to share the same recombination events or the junctions for recombination.

When the original Butia Jubaea cross is created all the offspring will have a Butia chromosome 14 and a Jubaea chromosome 14. However if this plant is fertile and allowed to produce then the product of recombination will create a bell curve of phenotypes where a few plants will look very Butia like, many will appear as having both characteristics, and a few will look very Jubaea like. This is why the amount of variation in the original cross when compared with the offspring of the hybrid (if self fertile) can be quite different.

Finally variation in how plants appear can be the result of dominant and recessive traits. Lets say LF is the dominant gene for long fronds and lf is the recessive gene for short fronds. Because LF is dominant a single copy of this gene will cause the offspring to have a long frond even if a second copy of lf might be present. So LF/LF is long fronds, LF/lf is long fronds, and lf/lf is short fronds as it lacks the dominant gene. This becomes important as even though offspring may share a genetic contribution from two parents, the gene of one of the parents may be in the driver's seat and thus determines the phenotype (the appearance of the fronds for example) of the offspring. LF is always the big brother to lf and will gets its way.

Patrick

Patrick

[TimHopper]

Patrick, Thanks for a great expanation of the science involved with crossing. I enjoy working to create hybrid palms and watching them grow into something out of the ordinary. It's nice to have a better understanding of variation.

[Nigel]

Patrick, Thanks for a great expanation of the science involved with crossing. I enjoy working to create hybrid palms and watching them grow into something out of the ordinary. It's nice to have a better understanding of variation.

Yes , same thing I said but much better explained !

Merrill explained to me some time back that some inheritance is passed by another means which is why the mother plant seems to take precedence ........ but that was over my head.

[Kailua_Krish]

Patrick, Thanks for a great expanation of the science involved with crossing. I enjoy working to create hybrid palms and watching them grow into something out of the ordinary. It's nice to have a better understanding of variation.

Yes , same thing I said but much better explained !

Merrill explained to me some time back that some inheritance is passed by another means which is why the mother plant seems to take precedence ........ but that was over my head.

Did it have to do with the concept of cytoplasmic inheritance? If so my understanding of the situation is that the father plant contributed 50% of the raw genetic material found within the nucleus of the plant cell, this is what is in pollen. The mother plant on the other hand contributes 50% of the raw genetic material found in the nucleus, but in addition passes on other inheritable traits. This is because the cell receptive to fertilization by the pollen also contains many other genetic elements in the cytoplasm, such as chloroplasts and mitochondria, among other things (maternal proteins) that are never inherited from a father plant. Undoubtedly these would have a great effect on the resulting progeny's metabolism. I think this is what you are talking about but if not sorry for the genetic discourse

-Krishna

[Nigel]

Did it have to do with the concept of cytoplasmic inheritance? If so my understanding of the situation is that the father plant contributed 50% of the raw genetic material found within the nucleus of the plant cell, this is what is in pollen. The mother plant on the other hand contributes 50% of the raw genetic material found in the nucleus, but in addition passes on other inheritable traits. This is because the cell receptive to fertilization by the pollen also contains many other genetic elements in the cytoplasm, such as chloroplasts and mitochondria, among other things (maternal proteins) that are never inherited from a father plant. Undoubtedly these would have a great effect on the resulting progeny's metabolism. I think this is what you are talking about but if not sorry for the genetic discourse

-Krishna

Exactly this.... thank you........ and this is why a JubaeaxButia doesnt look exactly like a Butia x Jubaea... and why the J trait in a JxB f2 , F3 etc remains stronger than its % would otherwise suggest.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Nigel

[mjff]

Patrick, Thanks for a great expanation of the science involved with crossing. I enjoy working to create hybrid palms and watching them grow into something out of the ordinary. It's nice to have a better understanding of variation.

Yes , same thing I said but much better explained !

Merrill explained to me some time back that some inheritance is passed by another means which is why the mother plant seems to take precedence ........ but that was over my head.

Did it have to do with the concept of cytoplasmic inheritance? If so my understanding of the situation is that the father plant contributed 50% of the raw genetic material found within the nucleus of the plant cell, this is what is in pollen. The mother plant on the other hand contributes 50% of the raw genetic material found in the nucleus, but in addition passes on other inheritable traits. This is because the cell receptive to fertilization by the pollen also contains many other genetic elements in the cytoplasm, such as chloroplasts and mitochondria, among other things (maternal proteins) that are never inherited from a father plant. Undoubtedly these would have a great effect on the resulting progeny's metabolism. I think this is what you are talking about but if not sorry for the genetic discourse

-Krishna

Which probably explains in large part why the trunk of Tim's plant looks so much like a Jubaea. The mother portion is still Jubaea even at F2, F3, etc., and from what I can tell the trunk characteristics seem to come from the mother on palms.

Good stuff guys. Thanks for the genetics refresher course.

[Alberto]

Patrick, Thanks for a great expanation of the science involved with crossing. I enjoy working to create hybrid palms and watching them grow into something out of the ordinary. It's nice to have a better understanding of variation.

Yes , same thing I said but much better explained !

Merrill explained to me some time back that some inheritance is passed by another means which is why the mother plant seems to take precedence ........ but that was over my head.

Cytoplasmatic inheritance was discussed here before: (sorry for the ´´heritage´´)

http://www.palmtalk....h=1&#entry74729

[TimHopper]

Patrick, Thanks for a great expanation of the science involved with crossing. I enjoy working to create hybrid palms and watching them grow into something out of the ordinary. It's nice to have a better understanding of variation.

Yes , same thing I said but much better explained !

Merrill explained to me some time back that some inheritance is passed by another means which is why the mother plant seems to take precedence ........ but that was over my head.

Cytoplasmatic inheritance was discussed here before: (sorry for the ´´heritage´´)

http://www.palmtalk....h=1&#entry74729

Thanks Alberto, Your link is good reading following the latest contributions in this thread. Tim

[TimHopper]

I wonder... What is the likelyhood of XJubutyagrus being able to self pollenate?

[merrill]

Sergio, I am glad that they arrived in good condition. I have sent quite a few of these XJubutyagrus to parts of Europe and I am looking forward to future reports (and photos) of how they are growing there. Thanks, Tim

...hi Tim.

...now them has started to grow again... ...good news ...

...regards and thank you.

sergio.

[carver]

My friend has one planted in his yard with 6ft of wood. Must be atleast 30 years old, planted by the Palmers in St. Petersburg. Trunk takes on an excellent corkscrew look. Will try to get photos

[merrillwx]

Hi, Tim:

There aren't enough mature XJubutyagrus around to draw many conclusions. My two mature XJubutyagrus are very heavy fruit bearers; one may bear 10,000 fruit per year, w/ NO EMBRYOS. This may have happened for ten or more years. My prediction is that they will turn out to be more consistently sterile than XButyagrus itself.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Gtlevine]

Hi, Tim:

There aren't enough mature XJubutyagrus around to draw many conclusions. My two mature XJubutyagrus are very heavy fruit bearers; one may bear 10,000 fruit per year, w/ NO EMBRYOS. This may have happened for ten or more years. My prediction is that they will turn out to be more consistently sterile than XButyagrus itself.

Best Wishes,

merrill

I am surprised how slow my xJubutyagrus grows compared with all the others. My Jubaea x Syagrus grows at three times the pace of the xJubutyagrus. Merrill, you should get working on a book devoted to just this group of hybrids.

Gary

[mjff]

Hi, Tim:

There aren't enough mature XJubutyagrus around to draw many conclusions. My two mature XJubutyagrus are very heavy fruit bearers; one may bear 10,000 fruit per year, w/ NO EMBRYOS. This may have happened for ten or more years. My prediction is that they will turn out to be more consistently sterile than XButyagrus itself.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill,

The Butyagrus I got from Mark is about to bloom. I was considering using the pollen from it on one of my Jubaeas next spring. Is it possible to create a J x (B x S)?

Martin

[merrillwx]

Hi, Gary:

You have an excellent idea! I'd be honored to assist you in such a publication. The main subject matter is much more prevalent in California than in Florida.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Nigel]

Merrill, you should get working on a book devoted to just this group of hybrids.

Gary

I second that motion ........ merrill you are the inspiration for everybody.

[TimHopper]

Hi, Gary:

You have an excellent idea! I'd be honored to assist you in such a publication. The main subject matter is much more prevalent in California than in Florida.

Best Wishes,

merrill

YES, And I would be in line at the book signing to buy the fist copy.