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TimHopper

Jubutyagrus

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

Thanks for showing us the results of your hybridizing efforts. Also thanks for bumping this old thread which has been around for several years. It's my favorite thread on Palm Talk and has had over 25,000 visits, maybe a record for Palm Talk. There are many new cocoid hybrids since this thread was started thanks to your great photographic step by step of the hybridizing process.

Dick

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TimHopper

Thanks Dick,

I have enjoyed working on hybrid projects over the past seven years. I was inspired by information provided by Merrill Wilcox. He is very knowledgable on hybridization and has been kind enough to share his experience with all of us at one point or another. I decided that a few photos would really be helpful in informing others of the right TIMING for the hybridization steps. With a little labor and the right timing, anyone can hybridize thier compatible palms. I am excited about growing some of these xJubutyagrus to see how they do in this climate. I would also like to see how they grow in California compared to here. Tim

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iamjv

Great to see these hybrid threads... I appreciate all the hybridizers, for it gives those of us living in marginal zones additional palms to grow. I now have 5 varieties in my collection and can't wait till they mature. Thanks all! Jv

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PalmGuyWC

It may be to early to ask this question, but spring is right around the corner. Did any of you guys in Texas or back east, that have had a horrible winter, suffer any damage or lose any of the Shaffer hybrids? I had two nights in early Dec. of hard freezes, (24 or 25 F) but the rest of the winter has been fairly mild in N. Calif. The only 2 smallish hybrids I have in the ground are Syagrus X Bujubaea and Bujubaea X Syagrus and neither of them were touched by the cold. They are both growing in the open with no protection.

The only damage I can detect was to my Parajubaea TVT which had about 10% foliage damage to the horizontal fronds.

Dick

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Matt N- Dallas

I had a low of 15* w/ a total of 3 consecutive nights in the teens. Lowest temps here since '96 & '89. My jubutyagrus was covered w/ a blanket and cardboard box during the three nights in the teens. It had damage to the emerging spear and pulled, but the plant is fine and I expect a full recovery. the base is the same circumference as a 20 oz pop bottle. My (JxB)xJ was fine- no damage and appears very hardy. I had b. yatay x syagrus in ground and covered- no damage. My largest butyagrus (bought from Tim Hopper as a 1 gal) was not protected and had about 30% leaf burn. It has about 4.5' of trunk w/ leaves reaching up about 9' and has grown very well. This was the first winter it has experienced burn- temps of 18*-19* in the past did not faze it.

The following had no damage: Jubaea, b. armata, b. decumbens, b. moorei, c. radicalis, butia, BxJ, trachycarpus princeps (green & blue), t. nanus, t. takil, t. wag, s. palmetto, s. mex, s. riverside, s. lou & min, s. uresana (blue form), s. brazoria, chamaerops green & cerifera, trithrinax campestris & schizophylla, rhapiodphyllum hystrix, guihaia argyrata, nannorrhops r.

The following had 30%to 80% damage: sabal uresana (green form), t. acanthacoma, livistona nitida, b. edulis, c. microspadix, b. elegans., phoenix theophrastii, phoenix canariensis x sylvestris, trachycarpus martianus.

The following were defoliated: livistona decora, b. clara, phoenix dactylifera, butia yatay, brahea dulcis. We had an abnormally wet winter and then a 13" wet snowfall in Feb (most ever for Dallas) that caused wipespread tree damage and power outages. A strange winter.

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PalmGuyWC

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the report. I guess 15 F and other nights of teens gives your palms the acid test. I'm surprised your L. decora, B yata, B clara were defoliated. My Livistona australis was totally defoliated in the '89 freeze, but had recovered by the end of the first summer. It had about 12'of woody trunk. Also surprised your Trithrinax acanthaocoma was damaged as they are supposed to be very hardy. I would have thought your jubutyagrus would have been more hardy, but glad to hear you think it will recover. Is it to early to see if the totally defoliated palms will live?

My Butyagrus were burned even more than yours in the '89 freeze, and it took about 2 years for them to grow new crowns but they showed no permanent damage. I expect all the cocoid hybrids will be tougher to cold once they get some size and woody trunks on them.

Any more reports out there guys?

Dick

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iamjv

Guess my hybrids are in good locations within the yard, for they all saw 16F and received zero damage! My Trithrinax acanthaocoma also had no damage at all and in fact is strikingly beautiful right now, as it sits next to my totally defoliated livistona saribus! :) Jv

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PalmGuyWC

Guess my hybrids are in good locations within the yard, for they all saw 16F and received zero damage! My Trithrinax acanthaocoma also had no damage at all and in fact is strikingly beautiful right now, as it sits next to my totally defoliated livistona saribus! :)

Jv,

Remember last year we had a discussion about how the palms would get cold tested sooner or later? Unfortunately it was this year, and hopefully it won't happen for another 20 years. I would say any palm that can survive the mid teens is pretty damn cold hardy.

I'm surprised that Matt's Butia yata X Syagrus was undamaged while his pure B. yata was defoliated. I had always assumed that most Butias were of about the same cold hardiness.

Dick

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FRITO

I protected my various 'mule' palms for the extreme cold. however I did leave them out a couple weeks ago as I wasnt expecting too cold of temps and it surprisingly got cold a few nights 23, 25, 25, and 26 and 29 were recorded. there have been so many sub 32 nights it has been rediculous.

Butia x syagrus roman. 3gals from Mark Heath no problems.

Butia x syagrus roman. 15gal from moultrie palms lower fronds desicating off.

Butia x Syagrus coronata 3 gal from Mark Heath No problems

Butia x Jubaea (maybe f2) no problems

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Collectorpalms

In Sept of 2002, I purchased from Jungle Music: 2 ButiaxSyagrus, 2 Jubaea x Butia, and 2 Butia x Para Jubaea. All were eventually planted in my yard, but one of the Butia x Parajub died one summer. Here in College Station, Texas (old zone 8b, new 9a) we had one of the longest continued "cool" and wet spells ever from Sept to Feb, this was preceded by the hotest and driest summer ever too! As everyone mentioned the 2nd week of January was the killer. One day here, it hovered near 27 for a high ( clouds), and then the clouds cleared right before sunset and settled out at 19.5 until 5am, then bottomed out quickly with a low of 15.5 in my yard at 745am. Unfortunently, the jungle music labels became brittle and fell apart. I might have gotton one of two of them misslabled, or they turned out not to be hybrids. Only one of them had any damage, and it was the ButiaxSyagrus that was planted in sun and its trunk was protected by a heavy blanket. It was very slow to get bronzing, but then the spear became desicated and the most recent fully exposed frond dried up. I am not sure what is going on with it, but the spear is still intact even thought it is desicated.

Ryan

ryan@collectorpalms.com

www.collectorpalms.com

Edited by Collectorpalms

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iamjv

Yes Dick I remember that conversation as I knew we were 'over due' for such an event.... my B. Yatay only had damage to the newest frond emerging. It's now dried and I am waiting for the plant to push a new growth. Jv

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freakypalmguy

In Sept of 2002, I purchased from Jungle Music: 2 ButiaxSyagrus, 2 Jubaea x Butia, and 2 Butia x Para Jubaea. All were eventually planted in my yard, but one of the Butia x Parajub died one summer. Here in College Station, Texas (old zone 8b, new 9a) we had one of the longest continued "cool" and wet spells ever from Sept to Feb, this was preceded by the hotest and driest summer ever too! As everyone mentioned the 2nd week of January was the killer. One day here, it hovered near 27 for a high ( clouds), and then the clouds cleared right before sunset and settled out at 19.5 until 5am, then bottomed out quickly with a low of 15.5 in my yard at 745am. Unfortunently, the jungle music labels became brittle and fell apart. I might have gotton one of two of them misslabled, or they turned out not to be hybrids. Only one of them had any damage, and it was the ButiaxSyagrus that was planted in sun and its trunk was protected by a heavy blanket. It was very slow to get bronzing, but then the spear became desicated and the most recent fully exposed frond dried up. I am not sure what is going on with it, but the spear is still intact even thought it is desicated.

Ryan

ryan@collectorpalms.com

www.collectorpalms.com

Hi Ryan,

Do you have any pictures of your hybrids?

Matt

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TimHopper

This is one of my PRIZE HYBRIDS sent from Malcolm Thomas a couple of years ago as a sprouted seed (thanks Malcolm). It is from the Tauranga hybrid in New Zealand. I wish I still had a link to his photos of the tree being transplanted. Does anyone? Tim

002.jpg

Edited by TimHopper

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PalmGuyWC

Tim,

What is the hybrid that Malcolm sent you supposed to be? It sure is a nice looking palm.

Also, has anyone attempted to cross Butia, with Butia being the mother plant with any kind of Beccariophoenix? Syagrus R. might also cross with Beccariophoenix. It should be tried.

Dick

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Alberto

Tim,

What is the hybrid that Malcolm sent you supposed to be? It sure is a nice looking palm.

Also, has anyone attempted to cross Butia, with Butia being the mother plant with any kind of Beccariophoenix? Syagrus R. might also cross with Beccariophoenix. It should be tried.

Dick

It´s the beautifull J x B from Tauranga NZ.

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TimHopper

It is a Jubaea x Butia Hybrid which had numerous photos posted a few years ago. I lost the link to Malcolm's photos which showed the very large hybrid being relocated to the waterfront in Tauranga, New Zealand. Alberto, you are right. Do you have the photo link? I forgot what my baby will look like. Tim

Edited by TimHopper

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Zeeth

Tim,

What is the hybrid that Malcolm sent you supposed to be? It sure is a nice looking palm.

Also, has anyone attempted to cross Butia, with Butia being the mother plant with any kind of Beccariophoenix? Syagrus R. might also cross with Beccariophoenix. It should be tried.

Dick

I agree. The best pollen source would be B. alfredii, due to the growth rate/cold tolerance ratio. Mark Heath just ordered a 7 gallon plant, so let's badger him to attempt some hybrids once he gets pollen. :D

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Collectorpalms

Hi Tim- I just bought one of these online from you! Wish me success. Do you have an idea what they might look like and will they be sterile?

Ryan

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buffy

Hi Tim- I just bought one of these online from you! Wish me success. Do you have an idea what they might look like and will they be sterile?

Ryan

Ryan: Here's the one I bought from Tim a few weeks ago. It's a great little strap leafer. Actually, this one ended up being a double.

post-60-12713662959442_thumb.jpg

And for everyone else, here's my Patric Schafer Jubutygrus:

post-60-12713663836074_thumb.jpg

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Palm crazy

Hey guys, I have two of Patrick (JxB)xQ they are the biggest feather palm I have but growing in heat starved part of the US, it's a moderate grower.

I should have my first split leaves this summer, the leaves are huge. Only been in the ground here for one year.

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TimHopper

Thanks Ryan and Cameron, I am hoping that they will be similar to xButyagrus, but more massive with a fuller crown. The only photo that I have seen of large XJubutyagrus is on the first page of this thread. It was posted by Richard Travis and shows it planted near mailboxes at Merrill Wilcox property near Gainseville. It seems like I remember seeing an adult xJubutyagrus a few years ago at the University of Florida. It would be great if these xJubutyagrus would produce viable seeds. I guess that I will just have to wait to find out for sure. Tim

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gsn

This is one of my PRIZE HYBRIDS sent from Malcolm Thomas a couple of years ago as a sprouted seed (thanks Malcolm). It is from the Tauranga hybrid in New Zealand. I wish I still had a link to his photos of the tree being transplanted. Does anyone? Tim

002.jpg

It is a Jubaea x Butia Hybrid which had numerous photos posted a few years ago. I lost the link to Malcolm's photos which showed the very large hybrid being relocated to the waterfront in Tauranga, New Zealand. Alberto, you are right. Do you have the photo link? I forgot what my baby will look like. Tim

Tim,

I'm a little confused, the above pic is stated to be Jubaea x Butia?

I'm assuming that this is not the same palm as the original topic Jubutyagrus, lacking the Syagrus lineage?

Buffy & Collectorpalms did you buy a Jubaea x Butia or a Jubutyagrus? The reason I ask is because I have several strap leaf seedlings of Jubaea x Butia(about 6 leafs) and they are not anywhere near as large/wide.

Edited by gsn

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TimHopper

GSN, That photo is of a Jubaea x Butia that was sent to me a few years ago by Malcolm Thomas from New Zealand. The hybrids that I am selling right now on Ebay are xJubutyagrus ((JxB)xS) from a Hybrid project last year. I have a Jubaea x Butia that I pollenated with Syagrus Romm. (var. Bonsal) Pollen. Tim

Edited by TimHopper

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merrill

GSN, That photo is of a Jubaea x Butia that was sent to me a few years ago by Malcolm Thomas from New Zealand. The hybrids that I am selling right now on Ebay are xJubutyagrus ((JxB)xS) from a Hybrid project last year. I have a Jubaea x Butia that I pollenated with Syagrus Romm. (var. Bonsal) Pollen. Tim

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merrill

My XJubutyagrus is thoroughly sterile. The only more sterile palm is my [butiaXQueen]XButia. The latter is so thoroughly sterile that the spathes NEVER have opened. This F2 is very fast growing much to my surprise; it grew as fast as the best Butyagrus.

I readily agree with those of you that say it is nonsense to compare degrees of sterility.

Back to XJubutyagrus: My two have probably produced a couple of hundred thousand seed which is too many to count embryos, but I've looked at quite a few. They have been quite uniform; I've never seen any significant size difference that would suggest that another seed might have an embryo or an endosperm.

I'm unaware of any XJubutyagrus on the Univ. of Fla. campus unless they are seedlings.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited by merrill
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Collectorpalms

Looks a lot like a regular Butiagrus, maybe someone can point out the differences, this one defoliated this winter (18 to 20):

mulepeckerwood2008.JPGxjubutyagrus.jpg

Edited by Collectorpalms

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TimHopper

My XJubutyagrus is thoroughly sterile. The only more sterile palm is my [butiaXQueen]XButia. The latter is so thoroughly sterile that the spathes NEVER have opened. This F2 is very fast growing much to my surprise; it grew as fast as the best Butyagrus.

I readily agree with those of you that say it is nonsense to compare degrees of sterility.

Back to XJubutyagrus: My two have probably produced a couple of hundred thousand seed which is too many to count embryos, but I've looked at quite a few. They have been quite uniform; I've never seen any significant size difference that would suggest that another seed might have an embryo or an endosperm.

I'm unaware of any XJubutyagrus on the Univ. of Fla. campus unless they are seedlings.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill, Over the last 3 years, I have tried to pollenate six of my most varied XButyagrus with no success. I have tried each with Syagrus R. and Butia pollen from several sources. I guess that I am ready to give up on that one until I have some new stock to work with. I keep thinking of the cross that Charlie made years ago, and hope to eventually find the right combination. About how old is the XJubutyagrus shown in the photo that Richard Travis took? Tim

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merrill

Hi, Tim:

I'll have to check w/ Everett about the age of the XJubutyagrus. The parent of the several F2's is in my Gainesville yard. The odds of getting F2 progeny are immensely improved by breeding the said Butia parent. We'd be happy to keep track of the blooming of said Butia so that you may cross it, and make tremendous improvement in chances of F2 success. Please let me know! My telephone is free

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited by merrill
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Mark Heath

Tim,

What is the hybrid that Malcolm sent you supposed to be? It sure is a nice looking palm.

Also, has anyone attempted to cross Butia, with Butia being the mother plant with any kind of Beccariophoenix? Syagrus R. might also cross with Beccariophoenix. It should be tried.

Dick

I agree. The best pollen source would be B. alfredii, due to the growth rate/cold tolerance ratio. Mark Heath just ordered a 7 gallon plant, so let's badger him to attempt some hybrids once he gets pollen. :D

Hey Keith,

No need to badger me, i plan to perform the cross when my B.Alfredii gives me pollen. I'll use it as the mother and use the pollen w/ Queen and the Butia.C as the parent palm. I really wanted to buy one of Jeff Searles B.M "WINDOW PANE" which is flowering but i am too chicken after last years freeze to buy another cold tender palm. Looks like we will have to wait about 5 years or so!

Mark

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TimHopper

001.jpg

These XJubutyagrus are growing really well outdoors in mostly sun. I have to water them often, but they do not seem to mind being in small 3x3x9 band containers. They have large roots for small seedlings. Hardly any weird week ones in the bunch, they are very uniform in appearance and growth. I have planted a couple of the first germinated into 5 gallon containers to speed them to a bigger size. I am curious to see what they are going to look like. Tim

Edited by TimHopper

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Kailua_Krish

I got one of these from Tim and hope mine grows well also! I will put photos up when it doesnt look like the ones in the above pic!

-Krishna

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merrill

I urge you palm afficianados to produce another of Charlie Raulersons Butyagrus X Queen; the best of the possible hybrids in my personal view. An odd fact about the F2 hybrids from the Huntington BG is that they all seem to be selfs rather than backcrosses. It would be nice to be able to produce backcrosses in either direction. The odds would seem to favor this, but in practice, they haven't. So far, the F2 BXQXQ is about the only plumose hybrid from all the possible Butia combinations. [i urge ANY of you to correct me if that last statement is not true; it would be a tremendous contribution to have such a plumose hybrid!]

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited by merrill
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buffy

I urge you palm afficianados to produce another of Charlie Raulersons Butyagrus X Queen; the best of the possible hybrids in my personal view. An odd fact about the F2 hybrids from the Huntington BG is that they all seem to be selfs rather than backcrosses. It would be nice to be able to produce backcrosses in either direction. The odds would seem to favor this, but in practice, they haven't. So far, the F2 BXQXQ is about the only plumose hybrid from all the possible Butia combinations. [i urge ANY of you to correct me if that last statement is not true; it would be a tremendous contribution to have such a plumose hybrid!]

Best Wishes,

merrill

I think somebody has a F1 Butia x Allagoptera that's showing plumosity. I saw it a couple of months ago on here. They used a very plumose Ally.

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freakypalmguy

I urge you palm afficianados to produce another of Charlie Raulersons Butyagrus X Queen; the best of the possible hybrids in my personal view. An odd fact about the F2 hybrids from the Huntington BG is that they all seem to be selfs rather than backcrosses. It would be nice to be able to produce backcrosses in either direction. The odds would seem to favor this, but in practice, they haven't. So far, the F2 BXQXQ is about the only plumose hybrid from all the possible Butia combinations. [i urge ANY of you to correct me if that last statement is not true; it would be a tremendous contribution to have such a plumose hybrid!]

Best Wishes,

merrill

I think somebody has a F1 Butia x Allagoptera that's showing plumosity. I saw it a couple of months ago on here. They used a very plumose Ally.

Here is a shot of my newly germinated Butia x Allagoptera, not quite plumose yet. Only one so far, hoping for more.

post-1261-12735467746321_thumb.jpg

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merrill

Thank You, Buffy!

It is perfectly plausible that Allagoptera would produce a plumose hybrid with Butia! I'm very grateful to you. Any chance of a photo of Allagoptera X Butia?

Many Thanks & Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited by merrill
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Mark Heath

I urge you palm afficianados to produce another of Charlie Raulersons Butyagrus X Queen; the best of the possible hybrids in my personal view. An odd fact about the F2 hybrids from the Huntington BG is that they all seem to be selfs rather than backcrosses. It would be nice to be able to produce backcrosses in either direction. The odds would seem to favor this, but in practice, they haven't. So far, the F2 BXQXQ is about the only plumose hybrid from all the possible Butia combinations. [i urge ANY of you to correct me if that last statement is not true; it would be a tremendous contribution to have such a plumose hybrid!]

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill,

I am going to attempt to pollinate a XButyagrus that produces seed and has endocarp. I have'nt located an embryo but

i am not 100% sure what to look for to be certain if the seeds are viable. At least it does'nt produce the solid shell like the majority. I can send you some seeds from the batch i have, just PM me w/ your address and you can

check them out. I have two XButyagrus' that produce seed w/ the same results. I have'nt sown them yet, i am waiting for my 5 yards of potting mix to arrive.

Here is a pic of one of them. Also, i'll take a pic of a VERY ODD XButyagrus F1 that resembles the father 80%. I would imagine that is what the BXQXQ would look like. Too bad the one perished that you mentioned above!

My next post will have the very odd XButyagrus that resembles the Queen 80% pic.

post-518-12735724695962_thumb.jpg

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merrill

Hi, Mark:

Nice to hear from you and Thank You very much for the offer! I accept w/ alacrity and great gratitude!

merrill wilcox

9430 NW 226th St.

Alachua, FL 32615

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merrill

Hi, Matt:

Many Thanks for introducing us to this very interesting hybrid. I'd be very grateful if you followed its development for us and posted it.

Best Wishes,

merrill

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Mark Heath

Here is my funky XButyagrus that looks so much like a Queen. I have thousands, and this is the only one that looks like this.

post-518-12736008172613_thumb.jpg

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