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Alicehunter2000

Is my Mule Sterile?

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Alicehunter2000

This is the second inflorescense to do this on my smaller mule. Fruiting Butia likely in the neighborhood.  Lots of bees.

Sterile?5647683f6151a_2015-11-1410.56.57.thumb.j

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Ben in Norcal

I thought mules can back cross if pollinated with queen or butia pollen.

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_Keith

Only one way to find out for sure.   I'll test some seeds for ya. <wink>

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Moose

Slice one in half, see if there is an embryo.

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Alicehunter2000

56477d106befa_2015-11-1412.26.16.thumb.jYou think a dremmel and a pair of plyers would work. ....what would an embryo look like. BTW the fruit not quite as tasty as srait Butia and seeds are between the two. They sink

Edited by Alicehunter2000

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redbeard917

They're too hard to cut with a dremel?

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Use Klein cable cutters, or smash with a hammer. Either the seeds will be solid or they will have large embrys. Based on the size they look to be fertile.

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Brad Mondel

Usually they're self sterile but that doesn't mean it can't get pollinated from another close by tree. Hopefully there's an embryo and an endosperm inside. 

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Ben in Norcal
22 hours ago, _Keith said:

Only one way to find out for sure.   I'll test some seeds for ya. <wink>

I'm with Keith - I'll try and germinate some! ;)

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Alicehunter2000

56477d106befa_2015-11-1412.26.16.thumb.jYou think a dremmel and a pair of plyers would work. ....what would an embryo look like. BTW the fruit not quite as tasty as srait Butia and seeds are between the two.

20151212_102240.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

What say the experts?

20151212_102302.jpg

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Josh-O

they look like little miniature coconut from this angle :lol:

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ErikSJI

A vice works great for cracking seed.

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Pal Meir
1 hour ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

What say the experts?

Your photos don’t show the embryos, only parts of the endosperm. The (1 to 3) embryos are inside the endocarp pores. For comparison two cross sections of Syagrus weddelliana seeds, one showing the embryo before germination, the other at beginning germination.

566c5c02bf790_SyagrusromanzoffianaSeeds.

566c5c091bbfe_SyagrusweddellianaEmbryos.

 

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks Pal,

I guess the question now is since the seeds developed partially would it be a good candidate for an intentional backcross. Most all my mules never make it to this stage. I may cut a bunch more to see if any are more dveloped. I have more from a different spathe that developed fruit earlier

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Pal Meir
7 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Thanks Pal,

I guess the question now is since the seeds developed partially would it be a good candidate for an intentional backcross. Most all my mules never make it to this stage. I may cut a bunch more to see if any are more dveloped. I have more from a different spathe that developed fruit earlier

Perhaps there is something like an embryo (?):

566c61bba6754_Mule20151212_102302.thumb.

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ErikSJI

Hypocotyl / embryo.

1a.jpg

1ab.jpg

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ErikSJI

A

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_Keith

If it is not sterile, it is not a mule, lol.

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Alicehunter2000

I cut a few more with bolt cutters....

Looky looky what one had inside!

2015-12-12 13.18.58.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Most likely (BxS)xB

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Alicehunter2000

For Keith

2015-12-12 13.26.36.jpg

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ErikSJI

That seed is all wood. No good.

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Pal Meir

I can’t see any embryo … :wacko:

566c85330a54a_BSB2015-12-1213.18.thumb.j

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Alicehunter2000

:wacko: I'm confused ......what is the big thing in the middle that has the point at one of the eyes? The others didn't have this. 

Also....why does this particular mule hold its seeds until it has orange fruit but my other mules abort everything?

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Pal Meir
17 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

:wacko: I'm confused ......what is the big thing in the middle that has the point at one of the eyes? The others didn't have this. 

Also....why does this particular mule hold its seeds until it has orange fruit but my other mules abort everything?

Oh, I am confused, too. Is this in the middle of the fruit a (negative) hollow or a (positive) seed? If so, the point at the pore could be the embryo … :huh:

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Pal Meir

If this is the fruit with the seed, the embryo (arrow) looks to me a bit too dry, so it might be not viable … :huh:

566c8f6fcac6f_BSB2015-12-1213.18.thumb.j

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Alicehunter2000

Dunno why it looks blue....really rare I guess...lol

Even if it is sterile.... (the woody area)....why does it have what appears to be an embryo inside that woody shell? Also still waiting on thoughts regarding why this mule develops normal looking fruit while my other mules abort everything. ..... how can something be only a little bit pregnant ...lol

Also why did this particular seed appear to develop further than the others I cracked open?

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Alicehunter2000

Ok...I think I can answer the question of what is in the center of the woody endocarp part.

That appears to be the tegument of the Kernel....I will break the kernel open to see if it has white interior.

0101-2061-cta-1678-457X6652-gf01.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Hold the presses....I scraped off the end of tegument and voila ..... a coconutty white kernal!

2015-12-12 17.37.51.jpg

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Pal Meir

Hmm, I am still confused. Does your fruit have no endocarp (shell) around the endosperm (seed kernel)? — But anyway, you could try to get the endosperm germinated …

566cb5bcbb30f_BSB2015-12-1213.18.thumb.j

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_Keith

I am pulling for you, and all this is good fun, but in the end all is answered and only answered by a healthy seedling.

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Alicehunter2000

Pal...yes the dark shell is the endocarp....you have it labled as a mescarp (fruit) ..... the fruit was already cleaned from the seed.

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Pal Meir
11 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Pal...yes the dark shell is the endocarp....you have it labled as a mescarp (fruit) ..... the fruit was already cleaned from the seed.

So I’ll try my next attempt, is this correct: :huh:

566cc192e5c8c_BSB2015-12-1213.thumb.jpg.

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Josh-O

I thought when germinated they revert back to the mother plant. I have a fruiting coconut queen and the seedlings never look like the hybrid. I would not think they are sterile they just wont be a true F1 hybrid?

Example:

Mule reverts back to queen not butia

Coconut queens revert back to queen not syagrus schizophylla..ETC

What do the masses think?

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Alicehunter2000

Yes... I scraped the endocarp with my nail and revealed the white coconut meat (endosperm ). I also noted before I cut with bolt cutters that I had a functional pore as described on the illustration. 

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