Livistona Nitida vs. L. Decora vs. L. Rigida vs. L. Chinensis

[Sandy Loam]

In a region where 17 degrees fahrenheit is possible once every ten years, which of these four palms is going to survive? (in descending order from most cold-hardy to least cold-hardy). 

Am I forgetting any similarly cold-hardy livistonas? Livistona Saribus is a bit less cold-hardy, isn't it?

 

[Briank]

Chinensis the most hardy. 

decora & Australis are very similar in cold hardy to around 20F. 

I just planted 3 Netida's. They are fastest and nicest in my mind.  They are hardy to low 20'sF as well.  A lot to choose from. 

 

Brian. 

[tank]

Sandy,

From most hardy to least, IMHO:

Livistona nitida (seems to be substantially more cold hardy than the others)

L. australis

L. decora

L. chinensis

L. saribus

L. rigida

[Alicehunter2000]

Good place to show a pic of saribus....from this morning

Once again the new PT will not upload pictures 4.2 MB from my Samsung Note ....looks like it goes all the way before saying "upload failed"

 

[Matthew92]

Observing both small and full sized specimens in zone 8, I've found that L. chinensis completely and utterly fries in upper teens; even though it may come back, it still looks horrible for awhile.

Still can't figure out how to upload pictures, but here's a view of one on Google maps in my area after 17 degrees and numerous other freezes in the low 20's. This clump has been here since at least 2008. You can see how it looked back then on the "streetview archive" in the upper left.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.524843,-86.45195,3a,51.6y,20.99h,82.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRqjTefKOMtTCjoYfDppGtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[gyuseppe]

7 hours ago, tank said:

Sandy, 

From most hardy to least, IMHO:

Livistona nitida (seems to be substantially more cold hardy than the others)

L. australis

L. decora

L. chinensis

L. Saribus

L. rigida

I made from seeds  livistona saribus and livistona  rigida, 
is livistona rigida be more resistant to frost here of livistona saribus, perhaps  source of seeds ?
 

[Sandy Loam]

...and we aren't even placing livistona mariae in the same hardiness range at all, are we?

I have four kinds of livistonas and none have ever fried after a cold night. They all stay looking perfect every year, but I know that day will come when very cold Arctic air pushes south. However, Livistona Nitida just has that "bulletproof" look and feel on the fronds. Chinensis has such soft, silky fronds that they look very delicate to any cold temperatures.

 

 

[Sandy Loam]

Sorry, I also forgot to ask about speed of growth in descending order.  I know that Livistona Decora is the fastest, but are any others fast/slow in your experiences?

Thanks for your cold-hardiness ratings. I welcome more of your experiences with cold-hardiness too.

 

 

 

 

[_Keith]

My decora made it through 19 more than once with only 30% frond damage.  

[Matthew92]

I had mentioned this in another thread before, but here is a clump of some kind of Livistona on the Upper Gulf Coast near the beach in a new shopping mall area.

Not sure what it is, has tassle-like fronds but not as much as L. decora, and of course the persisting leaf bases. It was planted there in 2014 and endured the following winter during which a little farther north on the mainland had 18 degrees in January and then 22 degrees in February. I'm guesstimating that combined with a mini urban heat island effect and the microclimate of the barrier island, it probably still endured at least mid 20's. This picture was taken right after that first winter in April 2015. Grows really fast, since this picture was taken I saw it in person in late summer and the canopy was completely filled back with no evidence of damage. (and there are actually 3 palms in the clump, just the best view I could get looks like only 2)

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3898599,-86.4252085,3a,30y,85.04h,90.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smOfxRErfHtw1LDSwEPkA0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Alicehunter2000]

Trunk looks similar to my Nitida.

 

[tank]

13 hours ago, tank said:

Sandy,

From most hardy to least, IMHO:

Livistona nitida (seems to be substantially more cold hardy than the others)

L. australis

L. decora

L. chinensis

L. saribus

L. rigida

Forgot about L. mariae.

nitida, mariae, australis, decora, chinensis, saribus, rigida

 

Dr. Merrill Wilcox believed that mariae was the most cold hardy as it was the only livistona out of this group to survive the severe cold of the late 80s.  Other than nitida, which he didn't have access to.  I have mariae but it hasn't been tested.  Nitida has seen 17f and probably lower with minor (if any) damage in an exposed location.  Most of this group will survive temps  near or below 20f if protected from frost under canopy, albeit, in short durations.

[tank]

6 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

I made from seeds  livistona saribus and livistona  rigida, 
is livistona rigida be more resistant to frost here of livistona saribus, perhaps  source of seeds ?
 

The red petiole saribus is supposed to be less hardy than the green.  From folks comments on this and other forums, rigida appears to be variable as well.

[Sandy Loam]

I think Livistona Nitida is going to be the next washingtonia robusta for northern Florida, as all of the washingtonias gradually die off due to new pests. They grow tall, although not as fast as washingtonia robusta.

Thanks to everyone for reporting your findings and experiments.

Opal,  I zoomed into google maps in front of Chipotle in Destin and I think it might be livistona chinensis.  The leaves are so fried that it must have seen the upper teens.  Some livistona chinensis have the "ribbon" look at the tips of their fronds more than others. I don't know why. In any case, the 3 trees in the google maps image are not as "ribbony" as livistona decora or livistona australis, at least in my opinion.  My chinensis have been both fast and slow --- very slow in the shade, but extremely fast growers when planted in the sun and in wet, mucky soil.

I am thrilled to hear about how cold-hardy livistona nitida is.  I have two, but they haven't really been tested yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gyuseppe]

On 10/11/2015, 13:23:55, tank said:

livistona mariae

Here livistona mariae  is slightly more resistant to cold than livistona rigida, but very slightly

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Where can one find nitida or Maria seeds?

[Sandy Loam]

 

Personally, I don't get involved with seeds, but I am sure that someone on this thread can advise you. However, I do shop for plants. I bought my two livistona nitida as 7 gallon plants from Sunscape East nursery in Tampa, Florida. They also have a location in Malabar, Florida.  Tank (above) used to sell 3 gallon livistona nitida, but I don't know if has any left.  They are not commonly sold at Florida nurseries, but a little research might find you some at the odd nursery. 

As For livistona maeiae, I have no idea because I have never even tried to look for them.

 

 

 

 

 

[JLeVert]

Livistonas in Savannah, GA.  L - R

L. nitida, L. saribus, L. chinensis, L. australis.   They have been through teens many times.

[Sandy Loam]

Wow, I wonder what kind of "teens" those livistonas have seen multiple times.  High teens? Mid-teens? Low teens?  Clearly, they are as tough as nails.

In the Savannah photo above, if these were planted at the same time, the clear winners in height are livistona nitida and livistona australis.  I am told that Livistona Decora grows tall the quickest, but none of them will quickly grow to forty feet like a washingtonia robusta.  It seems like there are a lot of Livistona Decora around which max. out at 20 feet tall. 

I suppose L. Chinensis can grow tall too, but the weird thing about them is that you don't know what you are getting on the market. There is the dwarf variety and there is the "tall" variety, but you never know what you're actually getting because rarely do they seem to be labelled properly.  A lot of them seem to say short forever. 

By the way, here is an example of livistona nitida becoming slightly more common in public landscaping in Florida (still pretty uncommon though):

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/46240-nice-public-planting-of-livistona-nitida/

I think we will be seeing more of this in the future due to their pest-resistance, ability to handle rain, wet holes, cold, relatively tall appearance, etc.

Not to digress too much, but also notice in the Savannah photo that livistona australis and livistona chinensis have bleached out looking leaf-tips.  I have seen a lot of this in L. Chinensis and I wonder if it is a combination of sandy soil and full sun, possibly combined with cold but it also seems to manifest itself after months of warm weather.  I have never had this problem myself, perhaps because my clay soil is so wet, mucky and rich in nutrients, coupled with the fact that my L. Chinensis enjoy some reprieve from the beating sun each day.

Keep that data coming!  Show us your freeze-hardiness experiments with Livistona!

 

[gyuseppe]

Hello  Joe !

Your livistona Saribus has petioles green or red?

It produces the seeds?
 

[Cikas]

On 11.11.2015. 17:04:47, Sandy Loam said:

Wow, I wonder what kind of "teens" those livistonas have seen multiple times.  High teens? Mid-teens? Low teens?  Clearly, they are as tough as nails.

In the Savannah photo above, if these were planted at the same time, the clear winners in height are livistona nitida and livistona australis.  I am told that Livistona Decora grows tall the quickest, but none of them will quickly grow to forty feet like a washingtonia robusta.  It seems like there are a lot of Livistona Decora around which max. out at 20 feet tall. 

I suppose L. Chinensis can grow tall too, but the weird thing about them is that you don't know what you are getting on the market. There is the dwarf variety and there is the "tall" variety, but you never know what you're actually getting because rarely do they seem to be labelled properly.  A lot of them seem to say short forever. 

By the way, here is an example of livistona nitida becoming slightly more common in public landscaping in Florida (still pretty uncommon though):

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/46240-nice-public-planting-of-livistona-nitida/

I think we will be seeing more of this in the future due to their pest-resistance, ability to handle rain, wet holes, cold, relatively tall appearance, etc.

Not to digress too much, but also notice in the Savannah photo that livistona australis and livistona chinensis have bleached out looking leaf-tips.  I have seen a lot of this in L. Chinensis and I wonder if it is a combination of sandy soil and full sun, possibly combined with cold but it also seems to manifest itself after months of warm weather.  I have never had this problem myself, perhaps because my clay soil is so wet, mucky and rich in nutrients, coupled with the fact that my L. Chinensis enjoy some reprieve from the beating sun each day.

Keep that data coming!  Show us your freeze-hardiness experiments with Livistona!

 

All L. Chinensis are very tall palms when mature.

They just grow slow.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Cikas

[southpacific73]

Those palms are beautiful! I just maybe tempted to experiment with livistonas with more freeze data to go on!!!!

[_Keith]

Livies in full sun and in shade can look like 2 entirely different palms.   I originally planted mine in full sun in 9a, but in the future will go to shade as I light the look better, and they will get more protection from frost/freeze.

[Alicehunter2000]

Saribus growing good these days

[Sandy Loam]

Nice one, AliceHunter2000!

[Ben in Norcal]

4 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Saribus growing good these days

David, does your L. saribus get torn apart by winds?  I have some small 5g plants that look like crap after storms, the fans get really tattered.  I am thinking about pulling them if that isn't going to improve.

[JLeVert]

At Leu Gardens in Orlando, they found that L. chinensis did better if it began under a canopy in semi-shade and then grew out into full sun.  Maybe some of the other Livistonas would benefit from the same situation.

[Alicehunter2000]

L. nitida ..... hard to get the full Monty shot

[redbeard917]

That Livistona nitida looks great. I like the pattern of boots on the trunk.

It's a huge improvement over Washingtonia robusta for this area. Not as tall, more cold-hardy, no ugly trunk constrictions. Interesting that a palm from a very limited natural geographical distribution is destined to become commonly planted.

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Very nice L. nitida David! The nitida is being field grown quite a bit in central Florida now...and I can see why.  

[smithgn]

David, I love your Nitida. I know you're a good bit warmer than I am, but growing a Nitida seems to be a possibility here in a protected site. I have 2 currently being raised in pots. How tall is yours approximately and how long have you had yours in ground?

[Alicehunter2000]

It was planted the spring before the Polar Vortex. It was purchased with about 8ft. ct? It's grown 2-4 ft. I believe since then. Wish it was in a location that I could enjoy it more. It is somewhat obscured by the big S. causiarum.

[_Keith]

16 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

David, does your L. saribus get torn apart by winds?  I have some small 5g plants that look like crap after storms, the fans get really tattered.  I am thinking about pulling them if that isn't going to improve. ye3qrs before it gets a break.

 

My saribus gets totally torn up by winds.   I planted a windbreak for it, but it will be 2-3 years before it gets relief.

[_Keith]

5 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

L. nitida ..... hard to get the full Monty shot

Is this one that got the surgery?

[Alicehunter2000]

Nah....all my surgeries failed....C. alba's and queens.....I'm a terrible doctor

[Alicehunter2000]

Decora's don't hold as many fronds as they should...

Probably need more consistent water

[Sandy Loam]

Nice photos, AliceHunter2000. 

As for planting for wind tolerance, this is such a foreign concept for me.  We don't get any wind here.  I am so glad that I don't have to deal with that variable. 

Your Livistona Nitida is my fave too.   Very nice -- it will be 20 feet tall in no time.  The nice thing about all of your Livistonas is that they will still be alive and healthy in 20 years when all of the syagrus, washingtonias, phoenix, mules, bismarckias, and possibly even Sabals have been killled off by the new pests going around Florida and Texas:  Phoenix Palm Decline, palmetto weevil, etc.  

[Matthew92]

16 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

Nice photos, AliceHunter2000. 

As for planting for wind tolerance, this is such a foreign concept for me.  We don't get any wind here.  I am so glad that I don't have to deal with that variable. 

Your Livistona Nitida is my fave too.   Very nice -- it will be 20 feet tall in no time.  The nice thing about all of your Livistonas is that they will still be alive and healthy in 20 years when all of the syagrus, washingtonias, phoenix, mules, bismarckias, and possibly even Sabals have been killled off by the new pests going around Florida and Texas:  Phoenix Palm Decline, palmetto weevil, etc.  

Yes, the ad naseum mass plantings of some of those species gives a huge playground for these pests/diseases...

Sago palm is already on it's way to being killed off. 7 years ago, as far as I was concerned, asian cycad scale was something only for South Florida. Never saw it anywhere up here. Now it is all over the place even into Pensacola. There's already 2 on the college campus I'm at that are in the final stages of infestation and literally dying.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Is the general consensus that these three livistona are equal to or slightly more cold hardy than a washingtonia robusta in the southeast?

[_Keith]

I would say equal.