Jump to content
Pal Meir

Lytocaryum: Syagrus insignis vs. S. weddellianum

Recommended Posts

Alberto

Details of Syagrus (Lytocarium) insigne

DSCN8077.JPG

DSCN8078.JPG

DSCN8079.JPG

DSCN8086.JPG

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Younger palm (from e-jardim) originated from the population of the st. of Rio de Janeiro

I guess that the batch with small seeds I purchased from RPS in 2014 came also from RJ, and the batch from 2011 with much larger seeds was from ES. But I don’t know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Details of Syagrus (Lytocarium) insigne

Fantastic and very informative photos!:greenthumb: Multo obrigado! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jos Mannaart

Hello Pal,

 

Thank you so much for this topic. Hope it is on time to safe mine

@ Kai, Would you be so kind to send me sms wenn soil is ready, to buy some from yours.

Mine is colouring like a banana, first green and then ................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Hello Pal,

 

Thank you so much for this topic. Hope it is on time to safe mine

@ Kai, Would you be so kind to send me sms wenn soil is ready, to buy some from yours.

Mine is colouring like a banana, first green and then ................

I think you can get the ingredients to my recipe in any horticultural shop:

Ingredients_P1010003.thumb.jpg.fecef3956

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Darold Petty

Thank you, Pal, for the very concise explanation and photographs.   :greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jos Mannaart

Thanks Pal, will have a look for ingredients.

Otherwise I drive to Kleve :-)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Thanks to PT member @Mohsen, who took a couple of very informative photos of Lytocaryum palms in RBG Sydney this month (Nov. 2015; cf. also his thread on PT for further photos), I have the opportunity to illustrate the problem in distinguishing the two species L. insigne and L. weddellianum (rsp. Syagrus insignis and S. weddelliana) when they are adult palms.

The first pair of photos shows the palms #1 and #3 which I think might be representative for L. insigne (#1) and L. weddellianum (#3), showing the characteristic patterns of old leaf sheaths, the rings on the stem, and the thickness of the trunk for each species.

The second pair of photos shows the palm #1 (supposed L. insigne) in contrast to another palm #2, which has a trunk more slender than that of #1, but much thicker than that of #3. This palm seems to have characteristics of both species, so it is hard to decide if this is L. weddellianum growing exposed to more direct sun, or a more slender L. insigne, or a hybrid (???) between the two species.

The last photo combination shows the trunks of these three palms. If the diameter of #1 is 100%, then the trunk of #2 would be ca. 70% and of #3 only 40%.

Palms #1 S insignis & #3 S weddelliana:

56507cd0de30f_Lytocaryum13HabitMohsen.th

Palms #1 S insignis & #2:

56507cdf48751_Lytocaryum12HabitMohsen.th

Trunks of #1 S insignis (100%), #2 S ??? (70%), and #3 S weddelliana (40%):

56507ce6a2466_Lytocaryum123TrunksMohsen.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

I am again using photos taken by @Mohsen in November 2015 in RBG Sydney. This time I am trying to compare the trunk patterns of the two species. It seems that the stem of Syagrus insignis shows (#1) secondary thickening and of Syagrus weddelliana (#3 & 4) does not. Relying on this criterium the problematic palm #2 could be S. insignis. I believe that such palms as #2 led even most experienced palm botanists like Dr. Henderson (1995) to the conclusion that these palms had to belong to only one species Lytocaryum weddellianum.

56531842d825f_LytocaryumTrunks1234.thumb

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

New leaves and leaf sheaths — hairy and woolly Syagrus insignis vs smooth Syagrus weddelliana (only with tiny scales):

5659ccc2a577a_28LytoNewleaves2015-11-28I

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Also the size of the seeds is confusing:

#1 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#2 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2014 > seedlings N°1401 – 1410
#3 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#4 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2011 > seedlings N°1101 – 1103 (all †)

5672c030d2960_LytoSeedsP1010055.thumb.jp

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kai
7 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Also the size of the seeds is confusing:

#1 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#2 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2014 > seedlings N°1401 – 1410
#3 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#4 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2011 > seedlings N°1101 – 1103 (all †)

5672c030d2960_LytoSeedsP1010055.thumb.jp

 

Not really confusing I think. They both produce large and small seeds, as most palms do, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
59 minutes ago, Kai said:

Not really confusing I think. They both produce large and small seeds, as most palms do, right?

I know, but in this case there were significant differences in size and consistency of the shell between all L insigne seeds of 2011 (large, thicker endocarp) and 2014 (small, endocarp thin like L weddellianum).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mohsen

it seems the main / confirmed diffrences is when they are young plant ( seedling) as L.W will have frond very early but L.S not only single leaves ? to me they look completely different from Pal's pics :  http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/uploads/monthly_2015_11/563a4387bcb9b_11_N13041401_2015-11-04_P1000996.jpg.22e7ace9226acc5f8892725354efcb51.jpg

@Pal Meir do your L.Ss have their first fronds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
31 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

it seems the main / confirmed diffrences is when they are young plant ( seedling) as L.W will have frond very early but L.S not only single leaves ? to me they look completely different from Pal's pics :  http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/uploads/monthly_2015_11/563a4387bcb9b_11_N13041401_2015-11-04_P1000996.jpg.22e7ace9226acc5f8892725354efcb51.jpg

@Pal Meir do your L.Ss have their first fronds?

Even my L insigne N°1401 (22 months old) with most leaves doesn’t show pinnate leaves yet:

56753fc372165_Syagrusinsignis2015-12-19P

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mohsen

Thanks Pal,

It should be interesting  to see when they will have their first pinnate leaf...

I have Syagrus romanzoffiana and Syagrus schizophylla seedlings ...to me your seedling looks more like a Syagrus seedling than L.W ?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
40 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal,

It should be interesting  to see when they will have their first pinnate leaf...

I have Syagrus romanzoffiana and Syagrus schizophylla seedlings ...to me your seedling looks more like a Syagrus seedling than L.W ?!

Not only to you … :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal,

It should be interesting  to see when they will have their first pinnate leaf...

I have Syagrus romanzoffiana and Syagrus schizophylla seedlings ...to me your seedling looks more like a Syagrus seedling than L.W ?!

I am waiting that my seedlings will look like this one on a photo taken by @caixeta and posted on an earlier thread: :mellow:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/30006-are-this-seedlings-from-the-same-species/#comment-719534

post-5900-030614500%201316652404.jpg

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kai
On 4-11-2015 19:53:10, Pal Meir said:

After studying the natural habitat of Syagrus insignis I saw that this species is only growing on steep rocky slopes. This means it needs very quick drainage and (when adult) it does not need any humus or other organic matter at all (pic 1+2). So I used in 2014 for my ten seedlings from the beginning a totally different soil mix, with the result that all 10 plants are thriving very healthily (pic 3) even now after more than one and a half year (the last photo still all 10 together: pic 4).

14_Soil_Syagrus_insignis.thumb.jpg.f8a2d

 

So today I mixed this recipe of yours Pal and transplanted my 3 L. insigne seedlings (that look like crap) in a mix of 50% seramis and 50% fine pine bark. On the bottom of the pot I put some of the LECA for even better drainage. I watered them with rainwater with some palmbooster to give the roots a little boost. Drainage is excellent!

20151220_192557.thumb.jpg.d77d88bef14572

During transplanting I noticed that the rootsystems were underdeveloped and I hope there is still enough strength in the plants to get over their neglectic first year.

These three survivors will be monitored closely and get the best treatment I can give. Hope I'm not too late!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
1 hour ago, Kai said:

So today I mixed this recipe of yours Pal and transplanted my 3 L. insigne seedlings (that look like crap) in a mix of 50% seramis and 50% fine pine bark. On the bottom of the pot I put some of the LECA for even better drainage. I watered them with rainwater with some palmbooster to give the roots a little boost. Drainage is excellent!

During transplanting I noticed that the rootsystems were underdeveloped and I hope there is still enough strength in the plants to get over their neglectic first year.

These three survivors will be monitored closely and get the best treatment I can give. Hope I'm not too late!

I hope so, too. :crying: Had I known that earlier I had given you one of my freebies. — My L insigne loved it to get a shower from time to time. And as the soil mix doesn’t become soggy the roots got always fresh water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kai

Thank you Pal! But hopefully your soil recipe is worth much more than one of your freebies. They were beautifull and I still feel bad that I missed that train by just a few minutes. Anyway, if seeds become available again in the future, at least I know what to do now. 

What kind of fertilizer do you give your insignes. Or nothing so far?

Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

It’s a so called "Grünpflanzen- & Palmendünger", COMPO®. The composition is exactly the same as the fert sold by RPS. But good luck with your 3 seedlings! :greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Comparison of growth of exactly two years old palms: The inner clay pot of Syagrus weddelliana has a diameter of 12 cm, the plastic pot of S. insignis 14.8 cm.

56c0a25757f7b_SyagrusweddellianavsSinsig

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave-Vero

This young plant purchased as L. weddellianum (I've got another very like it, and I think both are typical of what's cultivated in Florida) has flourished without any particular attention here, south of Cape Canaveral.  I think it's been in the ground only about three years; I got it with several Chamaedorea at the fall palm sale at Mounts Botanical Garden, West Palm Beach.  They've also flourished.  

Syagrus insigne would make an interesting companion, and of course we have white sand soil.  Maybe S. insigne with bromeliad Aechmea blanchetiana?

By the way, European expanded clay pellets are really useful in pots.  Palms, bromeliads, orchids, whatever.  

Lytocaryum_weddellianum_(1_of_1).jpg

Edited by Dave-Vero
italics, extra comment
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
1 hour ago, Dave-Vero said:

This young plant purchased as L. weddellianum (I've got another very like it, and I think both are typical of what's cultivated in Florida) has flourished without any particular attention here, south of Cape Canaveral.  I think it's been in the ground only about three years; I got it with several Chamaedorea at the fall palm sale at Mounts Botanical Garden, West Palm Beach.  They've also flourished.  

Syagrus insigne would make an interesting companion, and of course we have white sand soil.  Maybe S. insigne with bromeliad Aechmea blanchetiana?

By the way, European expanded clay pellets are really useful in pots.  Palms, bromeliads, orchids, whatever.  

Nice palm! :wub: Looks very happy :greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Syagrus insignis, silvery undersides of juvenile leaves of 2 years old seedlings:

56d3783975015_SyagrusinsignisIMG_8508.th

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mohsen
16 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Syagrus insignis, silvery undersides of juvenile leaves of 2 years old seedlings:

56d3783975015_SyagrusinsignisIMG_8508.th

They are beautiful Pal, all L.insignis looks silvery or this is a special variation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JasonD
On November 6, 2015 at 10:50:53 PM, realarch said:

Amazing photographs and chronology. Appreciate the effort and detail.

Tim

Yes, I am grateful for the work you have shared here. I'm eager to try Syagrus insignis here in San Francisco.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
59 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

They are beautiful Pal, all L.insignis looks silvery or this is a special variation?

All Lyto insigne (as also L weddellianum) have silvery undersides. It is one of the distinctive features, so far as I know.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

The first day outdoors this year and still no pinnate leaf … :huh:

572ca3eece6f3_Syagrusinsignis2016-05-06P

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalmatiansoap

In full sun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir
13 minutes ago, dalmatiansoap said:

In full sun?

Yeah, but at 51.5°N and only the afternoon and not in Dalmatia … B) They are getting too tall for the window sills :mellow:

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Our sun doesn’t compare to a real Dalmatian sun. But how does your N°1407 do after the (short?) winter? (We didn’t have any …)

572ccbe6f2c42_N1401-082016-05-06P1010518

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalmatiansoap

Here it is

IMAG7185_zpsrvezas8e.jpg

still in semi shade

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

Looks happy :greenthumb::) It can withstand much more sun than L. weddellianum.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pal Meir

The leaves are green, the stem is brown, but the (usually invisible) roots are purple: ^_^

572df17a71d43_Syagrusinsignis2016-05-07P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Similar Content

    • Pal Meir
      By Pal Meir
      Please post a pic of your nicest (or only one) Lytocaryum insigne (Syagrus insignis)!
      This here is my favorite:

    • Pal Meir
      By Pal Meir
      For hybrides with Cocos nucifera or else!

    • Pal Meir
      By Pal Meir
      According to the palm literature Lytocaryum weddellianum grows at altitudes between 50 and 800 m and Lytocaryum insigne from 1000 to 1800 m (Noblick 2017). But those limitations seem to be not correct. Below four habitat photos showing L insigne at c. 500 m and L weddellianum at c. 900 m (and 1200 m imo):



      This palm is imo also L weddellianum, but I am not sure:

    • Pal Meir
      By Pal Meir
      Not a Lodoicea, but only two L weddellianum potted together, today 6 years old:

      And 2 years ago:

      And when they were still younger:

      And 4 months after birth, er, germination:

       
×
×
  • Create New...