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Lytocaryum: Syagrus insignis vs. S. weddellianum


Pal Meir

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Details of Syagrus (Lytocarium) insigne

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  • Upvote 1

Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.

Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

 

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

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Younger palm (from e-jardim) originated from the population of the st. of Rio de Janeiro

I guess that the batch with small seeds I purchased from RPS in 2014 came also from RJ, and the batch from 2011 with much larger seeds was from ES. But I don’t know.

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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Hello Pal,

 

Thank you so much for this topic. Hope it is on time to safe mine

@ Kai, Would you be so kind to send me sms wenn soil is ready, to buy some from yours.

Mine is colouring like a banana, first green and then ................

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Hello Pal,

 

Thank you so much for this topic. Hope it is on time to safe mine

@ Kai, Would you be so kind to send me sms wenn soil is ready, to buy some from yours.

Mine is colouring like a banana, first green and then ................

I think you can get the ingredients to my recipe in any horticultural shop:

Ingredients_P1010003.thumb.jpg.fecef3956

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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Hi Pal, check it out  http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Syagrus_insignis_vs_S._weddelliana Consider yourself Research Work Editor for Palmpedia. Ed

Excellent coverage given. Kudos to Pal!

Shimoda, Japan, Lat: 36.6N, Long: 138.8

Zone 9B (kinda, sorta), Pacific Coast, 1Km inland, 75M above sea level
Coldest lows (Jan): 2-5C (35-41F), Hottest highs (Aug): 32-33C (87-91F)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks to PT member @Mohsen, who took a couple of very informative photos of Lytocaryum palms in RBG Sydney this month (Nov. 2015; cf. also his thread on PT for further photos), I have the opportunity to illustrate the problem in distinguishing the two species L. insigne and L. weddellianum (rsp. Syagrus insignis and S. weddelliana) when they are adult palms.

The first pair of photos shows the palms #1 and #3 which I think might be representative for L. insigne (#1) and L. weddellianum (#3), showing the characteristic patterns of old leaf sheaths, the rings on the stem, and the thickness of the trunk for each species.

The second pair of photos shows the palm #1 (supposed L. insigne) in contrast to another palm #2, which has a trunk more slender than that of #1, but much thicker than that of #3. This palm seems to have characteristics of both species, so it is hard to decide if this is L. weddellianum growing exposed to more direct sun, or a more slender L. insigne, or a hybrid (???) between the two species.

The last photo combination shows the trunks of these three palms. If the diameter of #1 is 100%, then the trunk of #2 would be ca. 70% and of #3 only 40%.

Palms #1 S insignis & #3 S weddelliana:

56507cd0de30f_Lytocaryum13HabitMohsen.th

Palms #1 S insignis & #2:

56507cdf48751_Lytocaryum12HabitMohsen.th

Trunks of #1 S insignis (100%), #2 S ??? (70%), and #3 S weddelliana (40%):

56507ce6a2466_Lytocaryum123TrunksMohsen.

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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I am again using photos taken by @Mohsen in November 2015 in RBG Sydney. This time I am trying to compare the trunk patterns of the two species. It seems that the stem of Syagrus insignis shows (#1) secondary thickening and of Syagrus weddelliana (#3 & 4) does not. Relying on this criterium the problematic palm #2 could be S. insignis. I believe that such palms as #2 led even most experienced palm botanists like Dr. Henderson (1995) to the conclusion that these palms had to belong to only one species Lytocaryum weddellianum.

56531842d825f_LytocaryumTrunks1234.thumb

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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  • 3 weeks later...

Also the size of the seeds is confusing:

#1 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#2 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2014 > seedlings N°1401 – 1410
#3 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#4 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2011 > seedlings N°1101 – 1103 (all †)

5672c030d2960_LytoSeedsP1010055.thumb.jp

 

  • Upvote 2

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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7 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Also the size of the seeds is confusing:

#1 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#2 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2014 > seedlings N°1401 – 1410
#3 "Lytocaryum weddellianum" RPS 2013 > palms N°1301 ff.
#4 "Lytocaryum insigne" RPS 2011 > seedlings N°1101 – 1103 (all †)

5672c030d2960_LytoSeedsP1010055.thumb.jp

 

Not really confusing I think. They both produce large and small seeds, as most palms do, right?

www.facebook.com/#!/Totallycoconuts

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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59 minutes ago, Kai said:

Not really confusing I think. They both produce large and small seeds, as most palms do, right?

I know, but in this case there were significant differences in size and consistency of the shell between all L insigne seeds of 2011 (large, thicker endocarp) and 2014 (small, endocarp thin like L weddellianum).

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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it seems the main / confirmed diffrences is when they are young plant ( seedling) as L.W will have frond very early but L.S not only single leaves ? to me they look completely different from Pal's pics :  http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/uploads/monthly_2015_11/563a4387bcb9b_11_N13041401_2015-11-04_P1000996.jpg.22e7ace9226acc5f8892725354efcb51.jpg

@Pal Meir do your L.Ss have their first fronds?

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31 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

it seems the main / confirmed diffrences is when they are young plant ( seedling) as L.W will have frond very early but L.S not only single leaves ? to me they look completely different from Pal's pics :  http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/uploads/monthly_2015_11/563a4387bcb9b_11_N13041401_2015-11-04_P1000996.jpg.22e7ace9226acc5f8892725354efcb51.jpg

@Pal Meir do your L.Ss have their first fronds?

Even my L insigne N°1401 (22 months old) with most leaves doesn’t show pinnate leaves yet:

56753fc372165_Syagrusinsignis2015-12-19P

  • Upvote 2

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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Thanks Pal,

It should be interesting  to see when they will have their first pinnate leaf...

I have Syagrus romanzoffiana and Syagrus schizophylla seedlings ...to me your seedling looks more like a Syagrus seedling than L.W ?!

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40 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal,

It should be interesting  to see when they will have their first pinnate leaf...

I have Syagrus romanzoffiana and Syagrus schizophylla seedlings ...to me your seedling looks more like a Syagrus seedling than L.W ?!

Not only to you … :huh:

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal,

It should be interesting  to see when they will have their first pinnate leaf...

I have Syagrus romanzoffiana and Syagrus schizophylla seedlings ...to me your seedling looks more like a Syagrus seedling than L.W ?!

I am waiting that my seedlings will look like this one on a photo taken by @caixeta and posted on an earlier thread: :mellow:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/30006-are-this-seedlings-from-the-same-species/#comment-719534

post-5900-030614500%201316652404.jpg

 

  • Upvote 1

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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On 4-11-2015 19:53:10, Pal Meir said:

After studying the natural habitat of Syagrus insignis I saw that this species is only growing on steep rocky slopes. This means it needs very quick drainage and (when adult) it does not need any humus or other organic matter at all (pic 1+2). So I used in 2014 for my ten seedlings from the beginning a totally different soil mix, with the result that all 10 plants are thriving very healthily (pic 3) even now after more than one and a half year (the last photo still all 10 together: pic 4).

14_Soil_Syagrus_insignis.thumb.jpg.f8a2d

 

So today I mixed this recipe of yours Pal and transplanted my 3 L. insigne seedlings (that look like crap) in a mix of 50% seramis and 50% fine pine bark. On the bottom of the pot I put some of the LECA for even better drainage. I watered them with rainwater with some palmbooster to give the roots a little boost. Drainage is excellent!

20151220_192557.thumb.jpg.d77d88bef14572

During transplanting I noticed that the rootsystems were underdeveloped and I hope there is still enough strength in the plants to get over their neglectic first year.

These three survivors will be monitored closely and get the best treatment I can give. Hope I'm not too late!

www.facebook.com/#!/Totallycoconuts

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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1 hour ago, Kai said:

So today I mixed this recipe of yours Pal and transplanted my 3 L. insigne seedlings (that look like crap) in a mix of 50% seramis and 50% fine pine bark. On the bottom of the pot I put some of the LECA for even better drainage. I watered them with rainwater with some palmbooster to give the roots a little boost. Drainage is excellent!

During transplanting I noticed that the rootsystems were underdeveloped and I hope there is still enough strength in the plants to get over their neglectic first year.

These three survivors will be monitored closely and get the best treatment I can give. Hope I'm not too late!

I hope so, too. :crying: Had I known that earlier I had given you one of my freebies. — My L insigne loved it to get a shower from time to time. And as the soil mix doesn’t become soggy the roots got always fresh water.

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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Thank you Pal! But hopefully your soil recipe is worth much more than one of your freebies. They were beautifull and I still feel bad that I missed that train by just a few minutes. Anyway, if seeds become available again in the future, at least I know what to do now. 

What kind of fertilizer do you give your insignes. Or nothing so far?

Thanks!

www.facebook.com/#!/Totallycoconuts

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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  • 1 month later...

This young plant purchased as L. weddellianum (I've got another very like it, and I think both are typical of what's cultivated in Florida) has flourished without any particular attention here, south of Cape Canaveral.  I think it's been in the ground only about three years; I got it with several Chamaedorea at the fall palm sale at Mounts Botanical Garden, West Palm Beach.  They've also flourished.  

Syagrus insigne would make an interesting companion, and of course we have white sand soil.  Maybe S. insigne with bromeliad Aechmea blanchetiana?

By the way, European expanded clay pellets are really useful in pots.  Palms, bromeliads, orchids, whatever.  

Lytocaryum_weddellianum_(1_of_1).jpg

Edited by Dave-Vero
italics, extra comment
  • Upvote 2

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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1 hour ago, Dave-Vero said:

This young plant purchased as L. weddellianum (I've got another very like it, and I think both are typical of what's cultivated in Florida) has flourished without any particular attention here, south of Cape Canaveral.  I think it's been in the ground only about three years; I got it with several Chamaedorea at the fall palm sale at Mounts Botanical Garden, West Palm Beach.  They've also flourished.  

Syagrus insigne would make an interesting companion, and of course we have white sand soil.  Maybe S. insigne with bromeliad Aechmea blanchetiana?

By the way, European expanded clay pellets are really useful in pots.  Palms, bromeliads, orchids, whatever.  

Nice palm! :wub: Looks very happy :greenthumb:

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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  • 2 weeks later...
16 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Syagrus insignis, silvery undersides of juvenile leaves of 2 years old seedlings:

56d3783975015_SyagrusinsignisIMG_8508.th

They are beautiful Pal, all L.insignis looks silvery or this is a special variation?

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On November 6, 2015 at 10:50:53 PM, realarch said:

Amazing photographs and chronology. Appreciate the effort and detail.

Tim

Yes, I am grateful for the work you have shared here. I'm eager to try Syagrus insignis here in San Francisco.

Jason Dewees

Inner Sunset District

San Francisco, California

Sunset zone 17

USDA zone 10a

21 inches / 530mm annual rainfall, mostly October to April

Humidity averages 60 to 85 percent year-round.

Summer: 67F/55F | 19C/12C

Winter: 56F/44F | 13C/6C

40-year extremes: 96F/26F | 35.5C/-3.8C

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59 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

They are beautiful Pal, all L.insignis looks silvery or this is a special variation?

All Lyto insigne (as also L weddellianum) have silvery undersides. It is one of the distinctive features, so far as I know.

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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  • 2 months later...

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