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Tyrone

Jubaea chilensis seed/germination question

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Tyrone

I've just acquired some Jubaea chilensis seed, and most float and some even rattle when you shake them. I know that Jubaea can take a very long time to finally come up, but from those with more experience than me, do you think the floaters will come up at all, or is this seed just old and unviable?

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Ive had lots of floaters will germinate, but you need to soak for a few days before sewing. 

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yabazid

:greenthumb: this guy is the man. 

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Mohsen

I've just acquired some Jubaea chilensis seed, and most float and some even rattle when you shake them. I know that Jubaea can take a very long time to finally come up, but from those with more experience than me, do you think the floaters will come up at all, or is this seed just old and unviable?

I have heard that you need to crack and remove the endocarp to increase the chance of success !Are you going to use this method?

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Tyrone

Thanks Texas Cold Hardy Palms. I'll keep them soaking for a few days then.

Mohsen, yes, you can crack the the shell and get the endocarp out. I've done that before with some success. You do tend to crush a few good seeds with this method and I can vouch that the failures taste like coconut. Cracking the shell is a tedious and stressful process though and my small vice was showing stress and bending just trying to crack them open. It's amazing how much that thick shell will bend before it lets go with a mighty crack. The trouble is the endocarp also has to distort to the same weird oblong shape and the final snap of the shell can tear the endocarp. I've germinated a few like this, but it does leave the endocarp unprotected from fungi and rats.

I've got about 100 seeds, so I'm going to take the natural approach this time. Even though the shell is so thick and tough, the little eye that the embryo pops out of is paper thin. I'm hoping some moisture will get through this membrane and give it the right signal to grow.

 

 

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chayote

Where you got Jubaea seeds in WA? hard to find them!!!!~

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yabazid

Look on eBay. You can buy hundreds of seed 

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quaman58

Hi Tyrone,

These are dependable for me simply covering them with a bit of soil outdoors in a moist area. They do take their time under those conditions; depending on the season, anywhere from 3-6 months. 

Bret

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Mohsen

Thanks Texas Cold Hardy Palms. I'll keep them soaking for a few days then.

Mohsen, yes, you can crack the the shell and get the endocarp out. I've done that before with some success. You do tend to crush a few good seeds with this method and I can vouch that the failures taste like coconut. Cracking the shell is a tedious and stressful process though and my small vice was showing stress and bending just trying to crack them open. It's amazing how much that thick shell will bend before it lets go with a mighty crack. The trouble is the endocarp also has to distort to the same weird oblong shape and the final snap of the shell can tear the endocarp. I've germinated a few like this, but it does leave the endocarp unprotected from fungi and rats.

I've got about 100 seeds, so I'm going to take the natural approach this time. Even though the shell is so thick and tough, the little eye that the embryo pops out of is paper thin. I'm hoping some moisture will get through this membrane and give it the right signal to grow.

 

 

Thank Tyrone

Yesterday I could see the big one in RBGS :

I hope few  of your seeds end up like that :)

ss20.jpg

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Pal Meir

Even if they germinate it lasts an eternity till they look like a palm tree. Below a pic of a Jubaea seedling, 4 (FOUR!) years since germination. But if you have more sunny hot days than we have here in Germany you may be more lucky. :winkie:

Jubaea_1981-07.thumb.jpg.c49fa4418635c1a

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Phoenikakias

Pal, Tyrone lives just south of Perth, winter there is probably warmer than early summer in southern Germany...

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Jubaea

Be patient.  The first time I tried to germinate them I gave up on the seeds and planted something else in the pot, later to discover that some of the Jubaeas germinated.  I have had some seed that came up nearly two years after planting.

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Tyrone

Thanks guys for the further info etc.

Mohsen those Jubaea in the RBG Sydney I seem to remember were planted in the 1800's, so my little plants will be a "crown on the ground" sort of deal for a few decades.

Bret and Jubaea, thanks for your experiences. I'm going to try your method. Put them in a pot of moist soil and almost forget about them in the nursery area.

Pal Meir, that's pretty good growth for 4 years. You're looking after that plant well. I germinated a couple before using the "crack the shell" method then totally neglected them in a pot until last summer and they would still be at your stage after 7 years. Now however they are planted out and irrigated in full sun, so I expect to see them start to grow a bit quicker. They've handled 44C and frost and seem happy and green. Phoenikakias is correct. I'm 400km south of Perth, but even in winter I average around 20C max in a freaky little hollow that warms up quicker than the surrounding area. Temperatures can reach 40C plus in summer, but always cool down at night into the teens. In winter the nights can be frosty to the low single digits. Of course for Jubaea you don't need mega high temps. If you never got higher than 25C all summer your Jubaea would be happy.

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Josh-O

they are slow, I have a crop of the blue form that took 8 months to sprout. Be patient and they will start to pop. make sure you prevent damping off with specialized fungicides...!! 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Do not crack the seed, that is a mistake. As long as you source good seed they will start germinating in 3-6 months if your temperature is right. Germination wise they like it as cool as trachycarpus but have to have fluctuations in temperature or they won't do anything.  Too hot and the embryo will decay and leak out of the seed. 

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Tyrone

Fluctuations in temp is what I have plenty of. Trachycarpus tend to come up in winter here. I'll expect some action in 6-12 months then.

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beliz1985
On 10/10/2015 at 11:11 PM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Do not crack the seed, that is a mistake. As long as you source good seed they will start germinating in 3-6 months if your temperature is right. Germination wise they like it as cool as trachycarpus but have to have fluctuations in temperature or they won't do anything.  Too hot and the embryo will decay and leak out of the seed. 

Experience the leak out! What temps do seeds need to germinate? 

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Tyrone

In the end after two years not one had germinated by leaving them in a pot and waiting. So I cracked them all open with maybe 80% success rate in not wrecking the seed. Then I put the good ones in their own pots in moist perlite in plastic bags at room temp in the house. Within a few weeks most had germinated. Now I have about 24 in 5L pots in my shadehouse. If I’d cracked them open when I got them I’d be 2 years ahead with more germinated I think. Also because they held onto the seed until it was used up they are after 2 years roughly, at the same place my first ones that rats stole the seed off were at the 5 year mark. My original two are now really taking off in the ground as well. The biggest would have a 20cm wide butt now. Jubaea think they’re at home in Chile at my place.

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kinzyjr

@beliz1985 I got 20 seeds off of @Josh-O some time back and got 85% germination in 6 months. 

I posted the results on this thread: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61472-fresh-jubea-chilensis-blue-form-seed/

The method I used was the baggy method.  I used a gallon freezer bag instead of a sandwich bag and filled the bottom with 4 inches of 50/50 potting soil/perlite.  I then positioned the seeds similar to how you would grow a coconut - embed the seed in the soil and give it a little space away from its peers.  I used a spray bottle to add just a little bit more moisture to the mix since it had been out in the open and relatively dry.  I then filled the rest of the bag with the same mix and sealed it.  I set it on top of a heat mat and ran it for a few hours and then let it off for a few hours.  Typical interval would be on for 2-4 hours and then off for the same.  The bag was in an area with no sunlight.  When I checked the bag each month, I'd make a judgement call regarding the moisture level of the soil and whether to use the spray bottle to add some moisture around the seeds.

Given the advice from @TexasColdHardyPalms and others above, it seems I unintentionally created the heating/cooling cycle that causes them to germinate faster.

Some lessons learned from caring for the seedlings in Florida:

  • No direct sun - dappled light has worked best. 
    • The top third of one of the initial leaflets burned after only 2 hours sitting on top of a garbage can while potting up a few other palms.
    • A few that I kept for my personal use sit in a window partially shaded by coconut canopy.
  • Taller pots with moderately quick drainage.  You want room for drainage but not dry spots.

I put a small one in the yard just to see how it might react (most likely not well).  I'm not aware of this palm being grown successfully to maturity in Florida, but if I'm wrong about that, please let me know.  I gave a few away to a friend in north Florida to see if they have better luck there.  There was one at Leu Gardens for a while, but it perished.

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greysrigging
15 hours ago, Tyrone said:

In the end after two years not one had germinated by leaving them in a pot and waiting. So I cracked them all open with maybe 80% success rate in not wrecking the seed. Then I put the good ones in their own pots in moist perlite in plastic bags at room temp in the house. Within a few weeks most had germinated. Now I have about 24 in 5L pots in my shadehouse. If I’d cracked them open when I got them I’d be 2 years ahead with more germinated I think. Also because they held onto the seed until it was used up they are after 2 years roughly, at the same place my first ones that rats stole the seed off were at the 5 year mark. My original two are now really taking off in the ground as well. The biggest would have a 20cm wide butt now. Jubaea think they’re at home in Chile at my place.

For our US friends..... the rest of Australia thinks Albany has an unique climate...... a jacket required 12 months of the year... lol. Way different to Perth for example 400klm north and Esperance 490klm east.
Just about ideal for tricky finicky cooler climate loving species....except for the odd days above 40c, which are rare.

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Frond-friend42

9 weeks from initial soaking of 10 jubaeas from RPS. I cracked off more than half of of their shells with a mallet--VERY dicey process. Most seeds had sunk by the end of 5 days. One got split bad but I still showed it in coco in little seals ceramics on a heat mat keeping them in the 90's with lids to keep the moisture in. The only two that have sprouted had their shells intact.  So excited to have a couple of sprouts! I was ready to wait a full two years but they beat out everything else I ordered.  I'm thinking shells might be important. (C. Miraguama, Carpoxy, c. Fallaensis and C. macroglossa).  Any advice or thought on any of these most appreciated. 

20200301_184922.jpg

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Frond-friend42

Another root popped! So far, 4 out of 9 viable have intact outer shells and all 3 germinated are the shell-intact ones. Keep the shells on, I say!

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jimmyt
13 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

9 weeks from initial soaking of 10 jubaeas from RPS. I cracked off more than half of of their shells with a mallet--VERY dicey process. Most seeds had sunk by the end of 5 days. One got split bad but I still showed it in coco in little seals ceramics on a heat mat keeping them in the 90's with lids to keep the moisture in. The only two that have sprouted had their shells intact.  So excited to have a couple of sprouts! I was ready to wait a full two years but they beat out everything else I ordered.  I'm thinking shells might be important. (C. Miraguama, Carpoxy, c. Fallaensis and C. macroglossa).  Any advice or thought on any of these most appreciated. 

20200301_184922.jpg

I had good success cracking the shells in a bench top vice, then soaking in water for 3 days.  I did not remove all the shells, just cracked them open enough to let the water in.  Put them in moss/baggies on bottom heat.  I got >50% germination in less than 2 months.  These were the world famous Josh-O blue form seed.  They are still germinating now.  Since Nov 2019.  I would say that cracking did/does speed germination.  It is easy to control the cracking pressure with a vice.  IMO

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Again, cracking jubaea is a bad idea and insanely fine consuming. If you're having to do that then your temperature and moisture isnt correct. Theyll start germinating after about 2 months and will continue for a few more months. 70%+germination is easily attained with jubaea especially with bottom heat. 

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Frond-friend42

7 out of 11 germinated, 2 of those rotted. One shell-less seed remains that i am still hoping for a late germination on. Here are the sprouters20200724_115229.thumb.jpg.a13544cba25d2bd578833f8a274fc8fa.jpg

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Frond-friend42

7 months from RPS delivery.

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Frond-friend42

I keep ziplocs over the tops until they're too big.

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UK_Palms

Just saying... I have never been able to get Jubaea to germinate, ever... and I have tried multiple times. Frustrating AF. Every other seed I have tried has popped eventually, but Jubaea, nah... they are difficult, as are Butia, but at least I got 3 out of 15 Butia seeds to germinate. However I have never had a Jubaea germinate. Absolute joke. Maybe it's just me... :hmm:

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Tyrone
On 7/13/2020 at 12:37 AM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Again, cracking jubaea is a bad idea and insanely fine consuming. If you're having to do that then your temperature and moisture isnt correct. Theyll start germinating after about 2 months and will continue for a few more months. 70%+germination is easily attained with jubaea especially with bottom heat. 

What temp do they need then?

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beliz1985
12 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Just saying... I have never been able to get Jubaea to germinate, ever... and I have tried multiple times. Frustrating AF. Every other seed I have tried has popped eventually, but Jubaea, nah... they are difficult, as are Butia, but at least I got 3 out of 15 Butia seeds to germinate. However I have never had a Jubaea germinate. Absolute joke. Maybe it's just me... :hmm:

They are very easy to germinate

 

10 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

What temp do they need then?

Flactuating temps. Daytime 30C, night-time 20C. I had 95% germination rate. Can be few degrees more or less but they take around 1 month to germinate. 

Edited by beliz1985
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UK_Palms
5 minutes ago, beliz1985 said:

They are very easy to germinate

 

Flactuating temps. Daytime 30C, night-time 20C. I had 95% germination rate. 

Washies are easy to germiante. Chamaerops are easy. Phoenix are easy. Queens are easy.  Jubaea is not "very easy" as you claim.

For me, Jubaea is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, out there to germinate. In fact I will never try to germinate them again and rather just buy an established specimen. Not worth the bother of waiting 2-3 years+ in my opinion. Even established specimens, they are so slow to get going as well once germinated. My established Jubaea is one of my slowest palms in my garden. We're almost in August now and it has only produced 1 new frond all summer. That's just not good enough. Some of my Washie's have put out 5-6 new fronds this summer alone. Jubaea's are one of the slowest palms out there, like in general...

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beliz1985
8 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Washies are easy to germiante. Chamaerops are easy. Phoenix are easy. Queens are easy.  Jubaea is not "very easy" as you claim.

For me, Jubaea is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, out there to germinate. In fact I will never try to germinate them again and rather just buy an established specimen. Not worth the bother of waiting 2-3 years+ in my opinion. Even established specimens, they are so slow to get going as well once germinated. My established Jubaea is one of my slowest palms in my garden. We're almost in August now and it has only produced 1 new frond all summer. That's just not good enough. Some of my Washie's have put out 5-6 new fronds this summer alone. Jubaea's are one of the slowest palms out there, like in general...

UK climate is not suitable, that's a fact. 

Using heatmat + thermostat is quite easy, cannot see many issues or very hard work in it. 

Of course, it's easier to buy one but there are countries it's impossible to get any. So it's whether seeds or nothing. You choose! 

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UK_Palms
1 minute ago, beliz1985 said:

UK climate is not suitable, that's a fact. 

Using heatmat + thermostat is quite easy, cannot see many issues or very hard work in it. 

Of course, it's easier to buy one but there are countries it's impossible to get any. So it's whether seeds or nothing. You choose! 

No, the UK climate is not suitable, I agree... but at the same time I have had Washintonia Robuta's put out 6 new fronds in the same time that Jubaea Chlilenis has put out 1 new frond, so clearly it is the Jubaea palm itself which is the issue and slow, regardless of the climate. It is very slow in general, whether that is in regards to germination or growth in general. 

In regards to germination, I have used a heatmat and thermostat to little effect. Jubaea are just difficult in general to germinate and grow. In fact I have never had a Jubaea seed germinate (tried several), which is the only palm seed not to germinate for me. I have had success with every other palm seed that I have ever tried, but not Jubaea. They are in a league of their own in terms of difficulty germinating, then when it comes to growing as well... my one is so, so slow to put out new growth. Again, 1 new frond for every 6 new fronds that my Washingtonia Robusta puts out... just saying...

Jubaea = slow AF. Just saying. One of the slowest out there, even if I do love the look of Jubaea's (which look pretty good in the south of the UK still)...

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TexasColdHardyPalms

@beliz1985 speaks the truth. Jubaea is easy if you have bottom heat. Put it on a timer-on for 2 hrs then off the rest of the day.  You can leave them in total darkness just go check on them once a week. I used to germinate batches of several thousand in my attic during the winter.

Acrocomia, dwarf butia,  allagoptera caudescens, jubaeopsis are difficult.  Jubaea is super easy. 

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beliz1985

I kept 10hours at 30C and the rest at room temperature. So around 20—24C

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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

@beliz1985 speaks the truth. Jubaea is easy if you have bottom heat. Put it on a timer-on for 2 hrs then off the rest of the day.  You can leave them in total darkness just go check on them once a week. I used to germinate batches of several thousand in my attic during the winter.

Acrocomia, dwarf butia,  allagoptera caudescens, jubaeopsis are difficult.  Jubaea is super easy. 

Had bottom heat like a lot of people on the UK forums but Jubaea is not easy as people are claiming. A nightmare to germ compared to other palms...

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beliz1985
1 minute ago, UK_Palms said:

Had bottom heat like a lot of people on the UK forums but Jubaea is not easy as people are claiming. A nightmare to germ compared to other palms...

Must have been very 'fresh' seeds then lol

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UK_Palms
54 minutes ago, beliz1985 said:

Must have been very 'fresh' seeds then lol

Bollocks lol... I have had fresh seed and it still won't germinate after a year in moist conditions. Jubaea are a nightmare to germinate, as previously mentioned...

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beliz1985

I just don't know why you trying to prove us that yellow colour is actually blue lol? I'm not the only one who says they are quite easy to germinate. You have to admit you did something wrong or seeds were not viable. End off :)

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climate change virginia
On 7/24/2020 at 8:23 PM, UK_Palms said:

Washies are easy to germiante. Chamaerops are easy. Phoenix are easy. Queens are easy.  Jubaea is not "very easy" as you claim.

For me, Jubaea is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, out there to germinate. In fact I will never try to germinate them again and rather just buy an established specimen. Not worth the bother of waiting 2-3 years+ in my opinion. Even established specimens, they are so slow to get going as well once germinated. My established Jubaea is one of my slowest palms in my garden. We're almost in August now and it has only produced 1 new frond all summer. That's just not good enough. Some of my Washie's have put out 5-6 new fronds this summer alone. Jubaea's are one of the slowest palms out there, like in general...

I have phoenix palms when your germinating them don't keep it too wet they are susceptible to root rot

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