My germination projects

[Pal Meir 5,258]

5 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Pal, how about these chamaedorea arenbergiana seeds, do you have any experiences with them? they should be the same as other chamaedorea ? adjacent germinators?

According to my limited knowledge all Chamaedorea spp are adjacent germinators; no own experience with this sp.

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 12/19/2015, 3:08:27, Mohsen said:

only one of the green ( seemed non ripe) germinated ...I got some others but not germinated yet as again it was not as ripe as those from  the #2 ...

see the first Plumule ...I am not sure how long will it take before I see the first leaf...

 

update :

Is this second Plumule? it took 12 days for the 2nd plumule ( from the 1st one)  

[Mohsen 1,165]

@Pal Meir, do we have any colorful Chamaedorea spp or any other  colorful palm suitable as houseplant?

[Pal Meir 5,258]

4 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

update :

Is this second Plumule? it took 12 days for the 2nd plumule ( from the 1st one)  

Yes, it is!

[Pal Meir 5,258]

For comparison a pic of my Lyto insigne N°1401 showing the tip of 2nd plumule:

[Mohsen 1,165]

after 3 month, one of  Rhopaloblaste ceramica wants to wake up from sleep  

Pal, first of all happy new year second, have you ever germinated this type? is it adjacent type?

[Pal Meir 5,258]

1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

after 3 month, one of  Rhopaloblaste ceramica wants to wake up from sleep  

Pal, first of all happy new year second, have you ever germinated this type? is it adjacent type?

Rhopaloblaste has adjacent germination, and the eophyll will be already pinnate. – And a happy new year, too!

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 14 December 2015 11:37:15 pm, Mohsen said:

got 25 fresh Lytocaryum weddellianum seeds from Palmland nursery today :

 

First sign of germination after 2 weeks :)

[Pal Meir 5,258]

25 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

First sign of germination after 2 weeks :)

Lyto wedd & insigne are like most tropical rain forest palms very fast germinators, so that they often germinate already during shipment. But they loose their gemination vigour also very quickly.

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 1/1/2016, 7:19:27, Pal Meir said:

Lyto wedd & insigne are like most tropical rain forest palms very fast germinators, so that they often germinate already during shipment. But they loose their gemination vigour also very quickly.

Thanks Pal, I assume I can use normal potting mix for L.W?

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 11/18/2015, 4:53:58, Pal Meir said:

Looks good! The seed petiole is longer than that of L. grandis, so it might be better, to use pots with at least 12cm depth so that the cotyledonary sheath can grow straight. Next the cotyledon (= plumule, seed-leaf) will grow, but it will take some time till it can appear on the surface if at all. Maybe only the eophyll will become visible, because the seed petiole is so long. The radicle (and the other, lateral roots) will grow later than the plumule.

after 6 weeks, today I noticed the green shoot is this eophyll?

[Pal Meir 5,258]

1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

after 6 weeks, today I noticed the green shoot is this eophyll?

I’m not sure, the plumule or the eophyll. — For Lyto wedd I am using a mix with excellent drainage: 2/3 pine bark (2-8mm) + 1/3 Seramis.

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 1/1/2016, 5:25:48, Pal Meir said:

I’m not sure, the plumule or the eophyll. — For Lyto wedd I am using a mix with excellent drainage: 2/3 pine bark (2-8mm) + 1/3 Seramis.

Pal, I thought you only use this mixture for L.S ?

[Pal Meir 5,258]

3 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Pal, I thought you only use this mixture for L.S ?

No, the mix ratio for Lyto insigne is 1/2 pine bark + 1/2 Seramis.

[Mohsen 1,165]

19 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

No, the mix ratio for Lyto insigne is 1/2 pine bark + 1/2 Seramis.

Thanks Pal, not only finding Seramis here is impossible but finding fine pine bark is also very difficult

[Pal Meir 5,258]

11 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal, not only finding Seramis here is impossible but finding fine pine bark is also very difficult

You can grind the coarse bark or make it otherwise finer.

[Phoenikakias 1,691]

7 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal, not only finding Seramis here is impossible but finding fine pine bark is also very difficult

You'd rather learn how each ingredient works and search then for available substitutes in your neck of the woods. Besides many other growers near Sydney could provide you with useful information about what is suitable to a paticular purpose and where it can be bought from. In the very end you have yourself to experiment and eventually, why not, also to fail! To palmy force the only path it is

[Pal Meir 5,258]

53 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

You'd rather learn how each ingredient works and search then for available substitutes in your neck of the woods. Besides many other growers near Sydney could provide you with useful information about what is suitable to a paticular purpose and where it can be bought from. In the very end you have yourself to experiment and eventually, why not, also to fail! To palmy force the only path it is

Yes, of course you can compose your own mix, if you know the chemistry of the components. Instead of Seramis you can use e.g. burnt loam or coarse sandstone if they are carbonate free (i.e. acidic) and the soil has afterwards an excellent drainage, and so on. There are many substitutes in nature, but you can make also many mistakes (as I did in the past).

[Phoenikakias 1,691]

I have not used for my tiny Lyto wed any pine bark or burnt loam, or seramis or crumbled sandstone, just zeolite, perlite, peat and universal soil for interior use.  Let's see what happens next. For the time being both my little plants survived their first summer in my cold frame, where the 40's is a routine during summer and now they have to endure inthere the long and cold winter albeit with the help of a heat mat.

[Kai 816]

For Lytocaryum weddellianum I have allways used regular potting soil mixed with some perlite. This has worked fine for them up to the point of getting my largest one to start flowering. They grow just fine. L. insigne is a whole other story!

I am however experimenting with Pals mixture and also found it hard to find the right size pine bark particles. This resulted in me cutting large pine bark chunks into smaller ones for some nights. My wife thinks I'm losing it. I have not found an efficient method for this yet.

@Pal: what do you think about adding grinded lava rock into the mixture?

[Pal Meir 5,258]

I have the best experience with my soil mix, which allows regular watering without the risk of overwatering or getting soggy; below an example of 3 palms 30 months after germination. — Grinded lava rock may be good for improving the drainage (excellent e.g. for Bismarckia), but it depends on the chemistry of the lava; it should be not too "fresh".

[Mohsen 1,165]

23 hours ago, Kai said:

For Lytocaryum weddellianum I have allways used regular potting soil mixed with some perlite. This has worked fine for them up to the point of getting my largest one to start flowering. They grow just fine. L. insigne is a whole other story!

I am however experimenting with Pals mixture and also found it hard to find the right size pine bark particles. This resulted in me cutting large pine bark chunks into smaller ones for some nights. My wife thinks I'm losing it. I have not found an efficient method for this yet.

@Pal: what do you think about adding grinded lava rock into the mixture?

Kai, I also had to separate the pine barks from other woody things in the mulch bag I bought and then tried to grind them in smaller pieces ...took me hours to prepare for 2 small pot...My wife also had that look while I was doing it ...I hope there was easier way to do that ...

[Mohsen 1,165]

23 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

I have the best experience with my soil mix, which allows regular watering without the risk of overwatering or getting soggy; below an example of 3 palms 30 months after germination. — Grinded lava rock may be good for improving the drainage (excellent e.g. for Bismarckia), but it depends on the chemistry of the lava; it should be not too "fresh".

They look fantastic Pal,

I took 2 seedling from Steve...I guess they are almost 2 years old ( from seed) but they don't have more than 1-2 small fronds    I put them in bigger pot but using premium potting mix + Perlite ... 2 month ago as I didn't know you use same gradient ( different portion) for L.W  as well...There are new shoot so hopefully they will grow faster from now ( also I think they might be in sunny location as well)

[Phoenikakias 1,691]

I have also experimented with Pal's mixture on a L insigne but I did not grind any pine bark chips, I just had to remove the chankier chips. I also substitited this stuff for hydroponics (seramis or other brand) with pumice. Then I tested the other Pal's mixture (the one with coco coir and with the same practice as described for the ligher mixture)  on a Lanonia. Interestingly I used on another Lanonia a different mixture, I use regularly for the rest seedlings. Now I wait for the results... For a lighter, free draining mixture for tropical palms I would also test a mixture with DRIED peat, pumice and zeolite. I once used such a mixture for a seedling of Arenga pinnata (for some reason it seemed to sensitive to soil moisture even during summer) and now I have from it a large specimen in my garden. 

[Hamal 114]

While drainage is the most important aspect of a palm soil mix, I always use some clay to ensure there is something in the soil mix that can hold water. Especially with thirsty palms like Phoenix spp. Instead of pumice you can also use vermiculite or perlite or any other kind of mineral drainage.

[Phoenikakias 1,691]

It depends on where you place pot. If it is a sunny spot with low air humidity (and plant is not tropical) then it certainly has higher water needs. If spot is dark and /or has high air humidity (like a greenhouse or wintergarden) water needs are lower. I do not consider clay a good ingrediient for soil mix. It is heavier than pumice or perlite and either it gets washed off or it sinks eventully through watering to the deeper layers, where exactly the need for aeration is higher. Most Phoenix sp are easy plants regarding soil  to grow in pots but even with these you have to be extremely careful when clay is used in the potting mix.  I recall that I used clay for plants in pots staying all year round OUTDOORS, including Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. On the other hand I keep also outdoors in pot a Caryota mitis, which grows mainly in pumice. Then some years back drip system stopped working for over half a month during August. All potted palms suffered great damage but especially those growing in clay got really thrashed but not so, to my biggest surprise, the Caryota mitis in the pumice...

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 12/26/2015, 7:57:11, Mohsen said:

Hybrid Lytocaryum seed update: 5 been germinated 

update :

 

[Mohsen 1,165]

Chamaerops humilis after 3 month :

Pal, any suggestion for them? should I use normal potting mix?

[Pal Meir 5,258]

1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

Chamaerops humilis after 3 month :

Pal, any suggestion for them? should I use normal potting mix?

Chamaerops has normally more remote germination; are you sure that the seeds are from Ch.? For Chamaerops a sandy mix with good drainage (as for cacti) would be preferable, but when the seedlings get bigger they accept almost all draining soils. — Since the cotyl. sheath is not straight the eophyll may come out like a corkscrew.

[Pal Meir 5,258]

1 hour ago, Mohsen said:

update :

The Lyto seeds with longer radicle can already put in pots, I think. The roots must not get dry.

[Mohsen 1,165]

21 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Chamaerops has normally more remote germination; are you sure that the seeds are from Ch.? For Chamaerops a sandy mix with good drainage (as for cacti) would be preferable, but when the seedlings get bigger they accept almost all draining soils. — Since the cotyl. sheath is not straight the eophyll may come out like a corkscrew.

Thanks Pal, I bought the seeds from eBay ...it named  Dwarf Fan Palm , now I searched the bags and it should be Livistona muelleri , could you confirm ?is this adjacent type?

[Phoenikakias 1,691]

No, L muelleri is also a remote germinator, sorry Mohsen...

[Pal Meir 5,258]

Livistona muelleri seeds should look like these (©RPS):

[Mohsen 1,165]

On 1/3/2016, 10:28:55, Mohsen said:

Chamaerops humilis after 3 month :

Pal, any suggestion for them? should I use normal potting mix?

, I tried hard to find other possibilities but almost impossible, probably it will be a mystery to me forever

[Pal Meir 5,258]

7 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

, I tried hard to find other possibilities but almost impossible, probably it will be a mystery to me forever

I have checked my informations on Livistona germinations, and it is possible that the germination of some Livistona spp may be not sooo remote. So I guess that those seeds are really of Livistona muelleri.

[Pal Meir 5,258]

PS: My guess can be correct only in that case that the marked detail is really the seed petiole. Please check, the photo is not so sharp … If it does not have a destictive seed petiole it can not be a Livistona.

[Pal Meir 5,258]

Since I don’t have good photos showing the germination of Livistona, I am using a photo from Palmpedia with a seedling of Livistona saribus, which shows that the seed petiole can be quite short. And if your seeds are of L. muelleri I have to make another correction: Instead of "cotyl. sheath" it has to be "eophyll" on your photo.

[Pal Meir 5,258]

Oops, NOT "eophyll", but "plumule" = cotyledon, of course.

[Mohsen 1,165]

Thanks Pal, I have already put them in 2 pots...but I have the third seed still germinating...I will take some photos....from my notes they should be Livistona muelleri unless been labeled wrong by the seller

[Hamal 114]

23 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Then some years back drip system stopped working for over half a month during August. All potted palms suffered great damage but especially those growing in clay got really thrashed but not so, to my biggest surprise, the Caryota mitis in the pumice...

Very interesting observation. I add clay mostly to my outdoor palms and have felt that it was kind of a safety net during the hot summer days. Even though it does not get really hot here in Germany, there are periods of a few very warm (30-35 C/85-100 F) sunny days in a row without rain. I do not need to water my potted plants that contain the clay every day. In fact, they get along just fine with watering them twice a week. To counteract the clumping effect of clay, I add more than twice the amount of perlite, pumice, lava etc, but you are right, long-term especially perlite comes to the top while clay may in fact make its way to the bottom of the pot.

Anyway, I did not want to hijack the thread. By the way, Seramis is just fired clay that can hold quite a bit of water and nutrients, just like pumice. Since I have not used it before, I will experiment with it and see how it affects the required frequency of watering the outdoor and indoor palms.