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Mohsen

My germination projects

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Pal Meir

Thanks Pal

I rinsed them in lukewarm water and this time I used Paper towel...problem is only few I could recognize their types :(

I am not sure if the fruit has been removed or not ( even if they are dried) for example these Wodyetia bifurcata and Black palm Normanbya normanbyi have very tough shell ...cant imagine how long will it take to break the shell and see any sprout ?

I would place the Normanbya seeds as they are in seperate pots and place them so that the embryo shows to the middle of the pot; on the site of DavesGarden you can find informative photos of seeds and seedling, so you can imagine the further development: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/269498/

Thanks Pal

From what I bought the pictures above should belong to Wodyetia bifurcata not Normanbya unless they sold me the wrong one...

they are very big one with very hard shell...I though I need to break the shell to help germination...it is around 8 weeks since I put them in sponge peat moss and some in pot and still no sign of sprout...from the photo in DavesGarden , it seems they are very similar to each other...also from below picture it seems they  cover only half of the seed in media ( your favorite method :) ) and also position it horizontally ?

Oops, Normanbya and Wodyetia seeds (and not only the seeds) look very similar, I think the lable of your source was correct. (In fact I believe that Normanbya and Wodyetia (and also Veitchia)) belong to the same genus, but this is another question.) Please don’t try cracking the shell, just wait. – The position of your seed(ling) looks correct. This is not only my "favorite method", it is also the usual way in nurseries (and described in palm literature; cf. e.g. Henderson (2002) "Evolution … of Palms", p.166).

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Mohsen

Thanks Pal

I rinsed them in lukewarm water and this time I used Paper towel...problem is only few I could recognize their types :(

I am not sure if the fruit has been removed or not ( even if they are dried) for example these Wodyetia bifurcata and Black palm Normanbya normanbyi have very tough shell ...cant imagine how long will it take to break the shell and see any sprout ?

I would place the Normanbya seeds as they are in seperate pots and place them so that the embryo shows to the middle of the pot; on the site of DavesGarden you can find informative photos of seeds and seedling, so you can imagine the further development: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/269498/

Thanks Pal

From what I bought the pictures above should belong to Wodyetia bifurcata not Normanbya unless they sold me the wrong one...

they are very big one with very hard shell...I though I need to break the shell to help germination...it is around 8 weeks since I put them in sponge peat moss and some in pot and still no sign of sprout...from the photo in DavesGarden , it seems they are very similar to each other...also from below picture it seems they  cover only half of the seed in media ( your favorite method :) ) and also position it horizontally ?

Oops, Normanbya and Wodyetia seeds (and not only the seeds) look very similar, I think the lable of your source was correct. (In fact I believe that Normanbya and Wodyetia (and also Veitchia)) belong to the same genus, but this is another question.) Please don’t try cracking the shell, just wait. – The position of your seed(ling) looks correct. This is not only my "favorite method", it is also the usual way in nurseries (and described in palm literature; cf. e.g. Henderson (2002) "Evolution … of Palms", p.166).

Thanks Pal...I will use that half bury method and wait my worry was that what if the rooting started from the top of the seed ( perhaps not possible as the half buried in soil will have the root only? anyway you mentioned about References for palms...what are the best references for Palms, are they in hard-copy or PDF format?

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Pal Meir

In their natural habitat the seeds fall among old leaves or weed on the surface of the soil, and from there the roots can grow deeper into the soil. When you plant a seedling (with adjacent germination) in a pot you should be careful not to plant it too deep, since this can cause problems later; here a pic of a Lytocaryum/Syagrus, but the germination of Wodyetia is similar:

Adjacent_Germination_Syagrus_insignis_11

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Mohsen

Thanks Pal for your nice illustration ,,,Actually today I removed few centimeter of soil from  the pots so at least can see the seeds now as they were buried very deep...

and what are the best references for Palms, are they in hard-copy or PDF format?

Regards

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Pal Meir

Thanks Pal

I rinsed them in lukewarm water and this time I used Paper towel...problem is only few I could recognize their types :(

I am not sure if the fruit has been removed or not ( even if they are dried) for example these Wodyetia bifurcata and Black palm Normanbya normanbyi have very tough shell ...cant imagine how long will it take to break the shell and see any sprout ?

I would place the Normanbya seeds as they are in seperate pots and place them so that the embryo shows to the middle of the pot; on the site of DavesGarden you can find informative photos of seeds and seedling, so you can imagine the further development: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/269498/

Thanks Pal

From what I bought the pictures above should belong to Wodyetia bifurcata not Normanbya unless they sold me the wrong one...

they are very big one with very hard shell...I though I need to break the shell to help germination...it is around 8 weeks since I put them in sponge peat moss and some in pot and still no sign of sprout...from the photo in DavesGarden , it seems they are very similar to each other...also from below picture it seems they  cover only half of the seed in media ( your favorite method :) ) and also position it horizontally ?

Oops, Normanbya and Wodyetia seeds (and not only the seeds) look very similar, I think the lable of your source was correct. (In fact I believe that Normanbya and Wodyetia (and also Veitchia)) belong to the same genus, but this is another question.) Please don’t try cracking the shell, just wait. – The position of your seed(ling) looks correct. This is not only my "favorite method", it is also the usual way in nurseries (and described in palm literature; cf. e.g. Henderson (2002) "Evolution … of Palms", p.166).

Thanks Pal...I will use that half bury method and wait my worry was that what if the rooting started from the top of the seed ( perhaps not possible as the half buried in soil will have the root only? anyway you mentioned about References for palms...what are the best references for Palms, are they in hard-copy or PDF format?

Oh, I have to correct myself: The soil level line drawn in Henderson (more "theoretical") is above the seed. But have a look at many seed projects in nurseries and you can see that the seeds are very close to the surface (when small) or even on the surface (when bigger), only covered by plastic (= the old leaves on surface in nature) for holding the moisture. – I have many books (not available as pdf) on palms, but all have their strong and weak points (practical vs theoretical). And you can get very useful photos on the web (as in the case of Normanbya vs Wodyetia) at davesgarden.com.

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Mohsen

thanks Pal

I removed most of the seeds and bring them very close to the surface...

I was thinking today what will happen to the actual seed,,,for how long after the sprout it stays with the seedling and what will happen if it is removed from the seedlings?

 

 

Edited by Mohsen

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Pal Meir

thanks Pal

I removed most of the seeds and bring them very close to the surface...

I was thinking today what will happen to the actual seed,,,for how long after the sprout it stays with the seedling and what will happen if it is removed from the seedlings?

When the seedling has developed enough roots (besides the radicle many adventitious roots) and the endosperm/haustorium (inside the seed) is exhausted the seed has no longer any function. But if there were not enough roots developed and the seed is removed the seedling will die.

I think you know and use all the websites for general information already, like e.g. this one: http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

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Mohsen

Pal, need your advise again...as you know I had a quick visit of New Caledonia last week :

I got 3 types of seeds , as below pictures with their trees :

Need your confirmation of their types ...the large seeds after peeling looks exactly as "Wodyetia bifurcata" ( I thought the trunk was different though) and also the other "Adonidia merrillii" not sure of the small one... any advise how to germinate them ( you gave me some for "Wodyetia bifurcata" before if its type confirmed)

6.jpg

5-1.jpg

4.jpg

3.jpg

2.JPG

1.JPG

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Pal Meir

@Mohsen: Welcome back from New Caledonia! All seeds are from palms with adjacent germination: The Wodyetia, Adonidia, and the 3rd one (I guess something like a Kentiopsis or so). The Wodyetia may take some time until germination, the other two should be faster. But all need temps around 30°C for quicker germination.

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Mohsen
20 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

@Mohsen: Welcome back from New Caledonia! All seeds are from palms with adjacent germination: The Wodyetia, Adonidia, and the 3rd one (I guess something like a Kentiopsis or so). The Wodyetia may take some time until germination, the other two should be faster. But all need temps around 30°C for quicker germination.

thanks Pal

I was browsing in Ebay and it seems there are some heating germination trays ... not particularity for Palm seeds but I thought those might be useful for my germination, have you used anything like that? are they effective? some I found on eBay :

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Seed-Germination-Tray-Heated-Hydrofarm-Seedling-Heat-Mat-Vented-Humidity-Control-/281303764224

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hydroponic-Propagation-Seeding-Trays-Seed-Germination-With-Heat-Mat-COCO-Tray-/281690960834

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hydroponics-Propagation-Seeding-24-COCO-Cells-Seeding-Germination-With-Heat-Mat/281691841945?rt=nc&_soffid=200&_soffType=SaleAndClearence&_trksid=p5731.m3795

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Super-Sprouter-2-Tray-Seedling-Heat-Mat-two-germination-propagation-/130765207214

Edited by Mohsen

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gtsteve

Mohsen, from the top of this thread, my opinions (not to be confused with best practice.)

1. put the CIDP in pots now, separate, not small pots. 2. I have had scores of kentia come up after putting them straight in the ground and forgetting them. 3. 

On 10/6/2015, 10:41:07, Pal Meir said:

"ligule (first plumule) do not grow straight."

i'm sure that is a typo, he means the opposite to how it sounds in English. He does not like the bag method because the roots often do not grow straight.-like yours. 4. Some seeds will take a year or two to sprout. 5. I use small bags of potting mix to sprout instead of wet paper. 6. Ch. oblongata sprout readily for me. 7. I would plant all of the different types of palms in their own bags or pots or in the ground, obviously labeled and dated. 8. If I put them in a pot I cover them with soil so that if I forget to check them for a couple of days there is less chance of them drying out, and I have a higher germination rate if lightly covered with soil. Cheers Steve.

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Mohsen
On 11/14/2015, 6:49:21, gtsteve said:

Mohsen, from the top of this thread, my opinions (not to be confused with best practice.)

1. put the CIDP in pots now, separate, not small pots. 2. I have had scores of kentia come up after putting them straight in the ground and forgetting them. 3. 

i'm sure that is a typo, he means the opposite to how it sounds in English. He does not like the bag method because the roots often do not grow straight.-like yours. 4. Some seeds will take a year or two to sprout. 5. I use small bags of potting mix to sprout instead of wet paper. 6. Ch. oblongata sprout readily for me. 7. I would plant all of the different types of palms in their own bags or pots or in the ground, obviously labeled and dated. 8. If I put them in a pot I cover them with soil so that if I forget to check them for a couple of days there is less chance of them drying out, and I have a higher germination rate if lightly covered with soil. Cheers Steve.

Thanks Steve for the nice summation ...I put all my CIDP in big pots and 5 already have one leave :) I wish all other palm seeds were as easy as CIDP...

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Pal Meir
8 hours ago, gtsteve said:

i'm sure that is a typo, he means the opposite to how it sounds in English. He does not like the bag method because the roots often do not grow straight.-like yours. 4. Some seeds will take a year or two to sprout.

Sorry, that was not a typo. I meant just what I wrote: If the seed petiole or later the roots grow straight or not doesn’t matter, only the part of the cotyledonary sheath which produces the cotyledon (= plumule, ligule) should grow straight (cf. attached sketch for remote germination as for CIDP.):

564863f20d34a_SyagrussanconaSeedling.thu

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gtsteve

Ok mate , sorry my mistake, for my confusion, thanks for clearing that up.  

Am I right  that you don't like bags because the ligule does not always grow straight?

Cheers Steve  

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gtsteve

 

So we are talking about ligules not roots, ok I understand that now, but you said .... 

"You should be careful to avoid that the cotyledonary sheath and the ligule (first plumule) do not grow straight.' 

Pal, I don't want to contradict you or argue with you, I respect your opinion, it is just that this direct quote of yours is still not clear to me.

I am sorry if I sound pedantic but I am just trying to understand this.

But it sounds to me like you don't want the ligule straight.

Cheers Steve  

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Mohsen

any experiences with Licuala ramsayi seeds germination? I have one which is germinated and I put in very small pot and still no sign of green Plumule :(

Pal, is this adjacent or remote germination ? should I change the pot to a bigger one , this pot  is 6cm Diameter with 6 cm depth ,,,

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Pal Meir
5 hours ago, gtsteve said:

 

So we are talking about ligules not roots, ok I understand that now, but you said .... 

"You should be careful to avoid that the cotyledonary sheath and the ligule (first plumule) do not grow straight.' 

Pal, I don't want to contradict you or argue with you, I respect your opinion, it is just that this direct quote of yours is still not clear to me.

I am sorry if I sound pedantic but I am just trying to understand this.

But it sounds to me like you don't want the ligule straight.

Cheers Steve  

Sorry for my confusing formulation with a double negation ("avoid … not") … :( I will try to use shorter, not complicated and nested sentences and avoid combinations of implicit with explicit negations. :blush:

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Mohsen

Pal, do you have any experiences with Licuala ramsayi seeds germination? I have one which is germinated and I put it in a 10cmX10cm pot 4weeks ago and still no sign of green Plumule :(

is this adjacent or remote germination ? should I change the pot to a bigger one , or just wait?

 

image.jpg

Edited by Mohsen

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Pal Meir

 

10 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Pal, do you have any experiences with Licuala ramsayi seeds germination? I have one which is germinated and I put it in a 10cmX10cm pot 4weeks ago and still no sign of green Plumule :(

is this adjacent or remote germination ? should I change the pot to a bigger one , or just wait?

I have germinated only Licuala grandis: Two weeks after germination they showed their green plumule (they have only one). I used a small 8x9cm clay pot. All Licualas have remote germination, but I don’t think that they need a deeper pot. You didn’t use the whole depth of your 10x10cm pot. I would check the seedling and replant it into the same pot but with soil filled up to the upper level of the pot. – Attached a pic of my L. grandis seedlings (2007-09-26), 10 months old:

564b4115172c2_Licualagrandis2007-09-26.t

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Josh-O

whoa!! the L. grandis are sure growing fast!

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Mohsen
21 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

 

I have germinated only Licuala grandis: Two weeks after germination they showed their green plumule (they have only one). I used a small 8x9cm clay pot. All Licualas have remote germination, but I don’t think that they need a deeper pot. You didn’t use the whole depth of your 10x10cm pot. I would check the seedling and replant it into the same pot but with soil filled up to the upper level of the pot. – Attached a pic of my L. grandis seedlings (2007-09-26), 10 months old:

564b4115172c2_Licualagrandis2007-09-26.t

Thanks Pal,

I checked it and replaced it to a bit deeper pot, it didnt reach the bottom though...

image.jpg

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Pal Meir
17 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal,

I checked it and replaced it to a bit deeper pot, it didnt reach the bottom though...

Looks good! :greenthumb: The seed petiole is longer than that of L. grandis, so it might be better, to use pots with at least 12cm depth so that the cotyledonary sheath can grow straight. Next the cotyledon (= plumule, seed-leaf) will grow, but it will take some time till it can appear on the surface if at all. Maybe only the eophyll will become visible, because the seed petiole is so long. The radicle (and the other, lateral roots) will grow later than the plumule.

564c7315786f1_Licualaramsayi.thumb.jpg.8

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Mohsen

Thanks Pal

the Pot depth is about 15 cm...I think it will take weeks before I see any green out of soil :) 

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Mohsen

I just check my seeds from New Caledonia and I noticed one of Adonidia merrillii might start germination? can this be petiole or something else...it is not even a week  since I put them in the "sphagnum peat moss" :huh:

IMG_3792.JPG

Edited by Mohsen
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Mohsen

Pal, did you see above picture? is this the petiole or something else?

Thanks in advance

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Pal Meir
20 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Pal, did you see above picture? is this the petiole or something else?

Thanks in advance

Yes, it is the seed petiole, but as Adonidia has adjacent germination the petiole is very short or almost invisible. I would put it again into peat moss (in the direction as shown on the pic) and wait with potting until the cotyl. sheath or the radicle become longer.

564db5b90bff3_AdonidiamerrilliiIMG_3792.

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Pal Meir

Here an Adonidia seedling, ca. ½ year old (I believe that Adonidia, Veitchia, Normanbya, Wodyetia are only one genus Veitchia):

564dbb4ea09fc_Adonidiamerrillii79N06-052

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Mohsen

Thanks Pal

I will do that ... it is interesting that it shows that petiole less than a week :)

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Mohsen

I am suppose to receive some Lepidozamia seeds ,,,never tried germinate any Cycad seeds before . I would be grateful if anyone could provide any  suggestion, guidance :)

How long will they take to germinate ?

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Mohsen

no one ever germinate Lepidozamia seeds? :(

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gtsteve

Yes. It was a very unfulfilling exercise, mine took about a year to sprout. mind you I don't use accepted best practice, 

I just put them in the ground and forget them, then a year or so later I have forgotten what they were and when I put them in.

Once I thought that a cycad of a few years old, had died so I put a brick path over it and six months later, I had forgotten it, and

it lifted up one of the bricks despite my attempts to flatten it every time I walked over it.

That was a Macrozamia communis which eventually 20 years later became a big spiky nuisance on the edge of my crooked path.  

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Mohsen

I wish palm seeds would germinate as quick as Mango , Mango after 3 days...

IMG_3865.JPG

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Mohsen

5 of seeds from new Caledonia are sprouting after 11 days ,bigger ones are “Adonidia Merrillii “ but not sure about the small ones

Not sure they are easy to germinate generally or the reason is that they were fresh??

tree which I tool the small one and seeds:

IMG_3864.JPG

palm25-se.jpg

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Mohsen

update to my "L. insigne". still in the process of selecting the suitable media for its pot :

IMG_3868.JPG

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Pal Meir
19 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

update to my "L. insigne". still in the process of selecting the suitable media for its pot :

Pot it at first into your germination mix with peat moss (or so). And when you have your new mix with bark and sand (or so) repot it. But be extremely careful and don’t hurt the roots! The purple part is the tip of the radicle (showing downwards). – The fast germination of your seeds may be their freshness, I think.

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Pal Meir
7 hours ago, Mohsen said:

 

5 of seeds from new Caledonia are sprouting after 11 days ,bigger ones are “Adonidia Merrillii “ but not sure about the small ones

Not sure they are easy to germinate generally or the reason is that they were fresh??

tree which I tool the small one and seeds:

IMG_3864.JPG

palm25-se.jpg

The small ones could be Archontophoenix (tuckeri?).

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Mohsen
On 11/24/2015, 7:12:50, Pal Meir said:

Pot it at first into your germination mix with peat moss (or so). And when you have your new mix with bark and sand (or so) repot it. But be extremely careful and don’t hurt the roots! The purple part is the tip of the radicle (showing downwards). – The fast germination of your seeds may be their freshness, I think.

Thanks Pal

I mixed 50% pine bark, 40% Coarse Propagation sands and 10% Perlite , pot has 12 cm diameter and 12 cm dept but I filled only up to 9-10 cm.

Should I plant it directly here ?

How often I need to water? every day?

IMG_3870.JPG

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Pal Meir
2 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal

I mixed 50% pine bark, 40% Coarse Propagation sands and 10% Perlite , pot has 12 cm diameter and 12 cm dept but I filled only up to 9-10 cm.

Should I plant it directly here ?

How often I need to water? every day?

The pine bark looks very coarse, I am using one with only 2-8 mm. – Try to stab a deep hole for the radicle, so that the radicle can grow straight downwards. I would fill up the pot to 11 cm. Water it at first with a lot of soft (rain) water, but leave no water in the saucer (or don’t use a saucer at all). Let the soil never dry out, but don’t let it become soggy. This palm needs a lot of O2 in the soil for growing healthy roots.

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Mohsen
21 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

The pine bark looks very coarse, I am using one with only 2-8 mm. – Try to stab a deep hole for the radicle, so that the radicle can grow straight downwards. I would fill up the pot to 11 cm. Water it at first with a lot of soft (rain) water, but leave no water in the saucer (or don’t use a saucer at all). Let the soil never dry out, but don’t let it become soggy. This palm needs a lot of O2 in the soil for growing healthy roots.

Thanks Pal, with your media and Pot, how often you water them?

BTW, are we practicing Hydroponic growing method here?

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Pal Meir
4 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pal, with your media and Pot, how often you water them?

BTW, are we practicing Hydroponic growing method here?

With my soil mix I watered them mostly once in two days, but this depends much on the temperature.

I were practicing hydroponics in the 1980s with other palms. The best success I had with Syagrus romanzoffiana and Caryota mitis, but also with some Chamaedoreas.

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