OUTRAGE

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

4 hours ago, rprimbs said:

Unfortunately it is much the same here. In the trades people told me the boss wanted "production" over quality (I worked as a carpenter and later as an electrician).  However my neighbor had some trees pruned and it was absolutely obvious that the guys who did it were certified arborists -- no comparison to the average pruning work done around here. It motivates me to do some pruning of my own.

Over here, it's all about the profits and nothing more.  Cram as many jobs into a day, a week, or a month as they can, and the Hell with quality and crew safety!  Literally, they have the attitude, "That if one sucker (customer) doesn't like it, there will be 10 more suckers right behind them that won't know the difference!"  I wasn't raised that way.  I don't even think that way, so how in the world could I possibly work that way?  Except in a few of the more enlightened and educated areas of Texas, most certified arborists would probably starve to death over here, especially in ignorant and stubborn South Texas.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

John, Walt, Richard, very good points and.. while i can only speak for what i see locally, John's thoughts about the quality of many of the companies in the industry who should know better, rings very true for more than less of the Landscapers here. Many don't even know their plants. That Really infuriates me.

Another thing, Back in San Jose, if trees ( of any type) were wrapped up in any of the Electrical/Telephone lines, PG&E.. or whomever they'd contract the work to, would come out and trim back the trees. Here, forget it.. We'd called several times reporting arching in the power lines behind the house during a good storm numerous times only to be told not to worry about it/ wasn't a big deal. During the storm that brought the Tornado to Siesta Key, the arching in the same power lines we had that night set the top of a neighbor's tree on fire. Despite the "skeleton" that remains, branches are still hung up in the lines and most of those trees along the property line are Brazilian Pepper, which should have been removed a long time ago.

Hey Nathan,

The way business is done over here, it has literally made me hate landscaping, the very thing I have a passion for doing, just because the business owners and managers have such and arrogant, ignorant, and greedy and in many cases down right fraudulent way of doing business.  Combine that with the attitude of a lot of the customers who have no patience, and want it done "yesterday" and dirt cheap, it has made me never want to work for a landscaping company again!  If I can't make it on my own, then I will just keep landscaping my own yard as a hobby and help family and friends with their yards.

Another thing over here, customers need to be very wary of "Landscape Architects"!  Most of them only have to take something like one class of Intro to Horticulture while working on their Bachelor's Degree, and then pass a state licensing exam because they deal with designing and modifying structures and retaining walls and other things of that nature and have to officially sign off on commercial plans.  Unfortunately they don't know diddly squat about the plants, the soils, and the climate.  Landscape designers like myself don't have to have a license, but we often know a lot more about the plants, soils, and climate than the stuck on themselves "licensed landscape architects"!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

1 hour ago, rprimbs said:

I have some oaks near the road that I need to prune for that reason.  I'm actually a little scared to do it.

Richard,

For your own safety, be VERY CAREFUL!  Get a certified arborist to do it, or try to find a reputable tree trimmer.

John

[Walt]

My tree trimming company sure knows how to take down an entire tree, and do it without damaging surrounding trees, shrubs, plants, etc. I've had my tree trimming company take down three dead slash pines (killed by pine tree beetles). I applauded him (and crew) for not damaging all my palms and plantings all around the trees.

My tree trimmer also does a great job of cutting off various branches (many branches my bismarckia palms and others were growing into) I directed him to cut off. He's also removed six mature queen palms that died or were in the process of dying from ganoderma butt rot, plus he removed a large bicmarckia palm late last year that was killed by palmetto weevils.

But the above being said, I doubt he has much knowledge (that of a certified arborist) in analyzing and assessing a given tree for it's needs as a general pruning, or how to cut back a sick and diseased tree.

And one thing I do know, when I first started using my tree trimming company, they knew little about palm trimming. I printed out the University of Florida's publication on palm trimming.

I mainly use my tree trimming company to trim my queen palms and Sabal palmettos that are too tall for me (bucket truck work) to do it myself, plus he grinds up all the fronds, inflorescence, etc., on site with his Intimidator machine that is discharged into a truck mounted collection hopper.

I have my tree trimmer cut the fronds on my queens and Sabal palmettos to the 9 and 3 o'clock positions. All fronds beneath that position get cut off. I generally have my tree trimmer come out once a year (late February). One time I waited for almost two years, so the trimmer had far more dead fronds, living fronds, dead inflorescences, living inflorescences, etc., to trim. All that did by me waiting so long was to drive up the price of trimming due to so much more fronds, etc., to trim, grind up, and dispose in the landfill (more debris disposed the higher the tipping fee).

Yes, I'm going to have to give my tree trimmer a call soon to give me an estimate to trim my palms, as they are due for their annual trimming.

 

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

16 hours ago, Walt said:

My tree trimming company sure knows how to take down an entire tree, and do it without damaging surrounding trees, shrubs, plants, etc. I've had my tree trimming company take down three dead slash pines (killed by pine tree beetles). I applauded him (and crew) for not damaging all my palms and plantings all around the trees.

My tree trimmer also does a great job of cutting off various branches (many branches my bismarckia palms and others were growing into) I directed him to cut off. He's also removed six mature queen palms that died or were in the process of dying from ganoderma butt rot, plus he removed a large bicmarckia palm late last year that was killed by palmetto weevils.

But the above being said, I doubt he has much knowledge (that of a certified arborist) in analyzing and assessing a given tree for it's needs as a general pruning, or how to cut back a sick and diseased tree.

And one thing I do know, when I first started using my tree trimming company, they knew little about palm trimming. I printed out the University of Florida's publication on palm trimming.

I mainly use my tree trimming company to trim my queen palms and Sabal palmettos that are too tall for me (bucket truck work) to do it myself, plus he grinds up all the fronds, inflorescence, etc., on site with his Intimidator machine that is discharged into a truck mounted collection hopper.

I have my tree trimmer cut the fronds on my queens and Sabal palmettos to the 9 and 3 o'clock positions. All fronds beneath that position get cut off. I generally have my tree trimmer come out once a year (late February). One time I waited for almost two years, so the trimmer had far more dead fronds, living fronds, dead inflorescences, living inflorescences, etc., to trim. All that did by me waiting so long was to drive up the price of trimming due to so much more fronds, etc., to trim, grind up, and dispose in the landfill (more debris disposed the higher the tipping fee).

Yes, I'm going to have to give my tree trimmer a call soon to give me an estimate to trim my palms, as they are due for their annual trimming.

 

 

Hey Walt,

I am glad you have a good one that doesn't butcher your palms.  I hope he read the U of F publication.

John

[Walt]

5 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Hey Walt,

I am glad you have a good one that doesn't butcher your palms.  I hope he read the U of F publication.

John

John: My trimmer is following the University of Florida's palm trimming guidelines -- if his customers will listen to him. He told me some customers tell him to over trim their palms so as to increase the time between trimmings, thus saving them money.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

3 hours ago, Walt said:

John: My trimmer is following the University of Florida's palm trimming guidelines -- if his customers will listen to him. He told me some customers tell him to over trim their palms so as to increase the time between trimmings, thus saving them money.

Walt, that's good that he's going by the guidelines, but I have never been a fan of trimming palms in the first place.  Palms always look better with a full complete crown of leaves, and when they have that butchered look, they look terrible!  I believe someone said earlier that no wonder so many people don't like palms if they keep seeing a lot of horrible looking butchered palms and they start thinking to themselves that they "have to spend money once or twice a year to just have something in their yard that looks horrible for months afterwards".  That can be quite a deterrent to a lot of people landscaping with palms.  I try to tell people, you don't "have to trim palms" and that it's not good for them.  They look better and are healthier when they are not trimmed, especially when they are not over trimmed.  Areas like here in Corpus Christi, the Rio Grande Valley (RGV), and in Florida that want to promote tourism are really shooting themselves in the foot by allowing the butchering of the palms. Over here, it is not just done once a year, but twice a year in many cases, which further weakens the palms, and they do it going into hurricane season, when the palms need their full crown of leaves to disperse the winds of the hurricane around the palm, and they do it again going into winter, when the palms need their full crown of leaves to help insulate the bud on cold nights and when they need their full crown to help retain moisture (I think a butchered palm will dry out and start wilting much faster from being exposed to chilly dry winds in the winter, than one with its full crown of leaves).

I go out of my way to not trim my palms with the rare exception of trimming off a dead leaf here or there on my young palms, especially the ones I am trying to sell to people.  Trimming off a few lower dead leaves on a small palm, makes it a little easier to sell, but with my self shedding palms, I am extremely cautious and reluctant to even trim off a dead leaf or two, because I want the pretty natural look to the trunk that those varieties should have when left to shed their leaves naturally.  I have seen people pulling off the older dying leaf bases of royals before they are ready to shed the old leaf base, exposing the tender area underneath, which I think can't be good for them.  With my royals and my King Palm, if I do trim off a dead leaf here or there, I always leave a few inches of the old leaf base of sticking out and just wait for the whole crownshaft part of the leaf base to naturally brown up and shed on its own, then later I will pick it up and toss it on the compost pile.

By the way, speaking of trimming palms and the perceived need to do so, I read something online a year or so ago that said there has never been a documented case of someone dying from a coconut falling on them!  If that is true, then the resort, restaurant, etc. hysteria of trimming all the coconuts off of large producing palms that are full of nuts, may be a totally overblown waste of time and money, that again makes the Coconut Palms look very ugly when they don't have their complete crown rustling in the sea breeze and full of nuts.  After all, what's a fully mature Coconut Palm in a beautiful tropical climate without its nuts?  It's like having a car without wheels!

John

[Walt]

1 hour ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Walt, that's good that he's going by the guidelines, but I have never been a fan of trimming palms in the first place.  Palms always look better with a full complete crown of leaves, and when they have that butchered look, they look terrible!  I believe someone said earlier that no wonder so many people don't like palms if they keep seeing a lot of horrible looking butchered palms and they start thinking to themselves that they "have to spend money once or twice a year to just have something in their yard that looks horrible for months afterwards".  That can be quite a deterrent to a lot of people landscaping with palms.  I try to tell people, you don't "have to trim palms" and that it's not good for them.  They look better and are healthier when they are not trimmed, especially when they are not over trimmed.  Areas like here in Corpus Christi, the Rio Grande Valley (RGV), and in Florida that want to promote tourism are really shooting themselves in the foot by allowing the butchering of the palms. Over here, it is not just done once a year, but twice a year in many cases, which further weakens the palms, and they do it going into hurricane season, when the palms need their full crown of leaves to disperse the winds of the hurricane around the palm, and they do it again going into winter, when the palms need their full crown of leaves to help insulate the bud on cold nights and when they need their full crown to help retain moisture (I think a butchered palm will dry out and start wilting much faster from being exposed to chilly dry winds in the winter, than one with its full crown of leaves).

I go out of my way to not trim my palms with the rare exception of trimming off a dead leaf here or there on my young palms, especially the ones I am trying to sell to people.  Trimming off a few lower dead leaves on a small palm, makes it a little easier to sell, but with my self shedding palms, I am extremely cautious and reluctant to even trim off a dead leaf or two, because I want the pretty natural look to the trunk that those varieties should have when left to shed their leaves naturally.  I have seen people pulling off the older dying leaf bases of royals before they are ready to shed the old leaf base, exposing the tender area underneath, which I think can't be good for them.  With my royals and my King Palm, if I do trim off a dead leaf here or there, I always leave a few inches of the old leaf base of sticking out and just wait for the whole crownshaft part of the leaf base to naturally brown up and shed on its own, then later I will pick it up and toss it on the compost pile.

By the way, speaking of trimming palms and the perceived need to do so, I read something online a year or so ago that said there has never been a documented case of someone dying from a coconut falling on them!  If that is true, then the resort, restaurant, etc. hysteria of trimming all the coconuts off of large producing palms that are full of nuts, may be a totally overblown waste of time and money, that again makes the Coconut Palms look very ugly when they don't have their complete crown rustling in the sea breeze and full of nuts.  After all, what's a fully mature Coconut Palm in a beautiful tropical climate without its nuts?  It's like having a car without wheels!

John

John,

The University of Florida guidelines is really not to trim a palm other than dead fronds, inflorescence (dead or alive), damaged fronds, or fronds that present a hazard. But at maximum, if one is going to trim their palms (and this also assumes the palms are being fertilized four times a year with a palm special fertilizer), not to trim fronds any higher than the 9 to 3 o'clock position. That's what I do (fertilizer four times a year with 8-2-12 with micros) and have them trimmed to the 3-9 o'clock position once a year.

If I didn't have my palms trimmed (almost all require a bucket truck), I would have dead, unsightly fronds hanging down all year long. By having them trimmed, my queens can then go almost nine months before a dead frond appears. Same for my Sabal palmettos. If I were to have my palms trimmed to the 10-2 o'clock position, my palms could probably go a full year before a dead frond would show, because it would take a full year of growing new fronds as the ones originally above the 10-2 o'clock positions would work their way down and finally start senescence.

If a palm held, say, 30 fronds to make a full canopy where none of the fronds were dead or dying, and the same palm produced 12 new fronds a year, then theoretically one could cut off the bottom 12 fronds and not have to worry about getting a dead frond (or one starting to die) for one year.

Another thing, especially for my bismarckia palms, I will not cut off a living frond, as I've read in University of Florida literature that doing so can attract the Palmetto weevil, as the wounded palm releases a scent that attracts the weevil. I lost my second to largest bismarckia palm late last year to palmetto weevils. This palm went through a high wind and hail storm about four months prior to the first signs my palm was dying. The storm broke about five fronds that I had to cut off. Doing this could have been the reason my bismarckia palm was attacked by the weevils. While I can't be certain, it is plausible. In any event, I will not cut off healthy fronds. The only reason I did so years ago was because I was having a hard time mowing around the low fronds when the palms were smaller. Also, wasp were building nests in the folded fronds. I got stung on two occasions mowing, so I cut the lower fronds off that was causing the problem. I have other, smaller, bismarckia palms. But now that I know you shouldn't cut off healthy fronds if at all possible, I will just mow the best I can around them.

I agree with you about coconut palms. I was viewing a real estate ad for a multi, multi million dollar estate on the ocean at Vero Beach, Florida, the other day. The estate had dozens of mature coconut palms -- and every one of them were devoid of coconuts, plus they were trimmed up to the 10-2 o'clock position. They had little visual tropical appeal like that. It just made me shake my head side to side. What a waste of good palms, IMO.

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

46 minutes ago, Walt said:

John,

The University of Florida guidelines is really not to trim a palm other than dead fronds, inflorescence (dead or alive), damaged fronds, or fronds that present a hazard. But at maximum, if one is going to trim their palms (and this also assumes the palms are being fertilized four times a year with a palm special fertilizer), not to trim fronds any higher than the 9 to 3 o'clock position. That's what I do (fertilizer four times a year with 8-2-12 with micros) and have them trimmed to the 3-9 o'clock position once a year.

If I didn't have my palms trimmed (almost all require a bucket truck), I would have dead, unsightly fronds hanging down all year long. By having them trimmed, my queens can then go almost nine months before a dead frond appears. Same for my Sabal palmettos. If I were to have my palms trimmed to the 10-2 o'clock position, my palms could probably go a full year before a dead frond would show, because it would take a full year of growing new fronds as the ones originally above the 10-2 o'clock positions would work their way down and finally start senescence.

If a palm held, say, 30 fronds to make a full canopy where none of the fronds were dead or dying, and the same palm produced 12 new fronds a year, then theoretically one could cut off the bottom 12 fronds and not have to worry about getting a dead frond (or one starting to die) for one year.

Another thing, especially for my bismarckia palms, I will not cut off a living frond, as I've read in University of Florida literature that doing so can attract the Palmetto weevil, as the wounded palm releases a scent that attracts the weevil. I lost my second to largest bismarckia palm late last year to palmetto weevils. This palm went through a high wind and hail storm about four months prior to the first signs my palm was dying. The storm broke about five fronds that I had to cut off. Doing this could have been the reason my bismarckia palm was attacked by the weevils. While I can't be certain, it is plausible. In any event, I will not cut off healthy fronds. The only reason I did so years ago was because I was having a hard time mowing around the low fronds when the palms were smaller. Also, wasp were building nests in the folded fronds. I got stung on two occasions mowing, so I cut the lower fronds off that was causing the problem. I have other, smaller, bismarckia palms. But now that I know you shouldn't cut off healthy fronds if at all possible, I will just mow the best I can around them.

I agree with you about coconut palms. I was viewing a real estate ad for a multi, multi million dollar estate on the ocean at Vero Beach, Florida, the other day. The estate had dozens of mature coconut palms -- and every one of them were devoid of coconuts, plus they were trimmed up to the 10-2 o'clock position. They had little visual tropical appeal like that. It just made me shake my head side to side. What a waste of good palms, IMO.

 

Walt, thanks for the explanation of how and why you trim your palms.  In regard to the multi million dollar estate at Vero Beach, even if I had that kind of money and was looking to buy something like that, the scene of the scalped, if not BUTHCHERED Coconut Palms would really turn me off, and I wouldn't hesitate to tell the real estate company and even the owner.  Talk about BAD curb appeal.  By the way, when I lived in Coral Springs years ago, I met someone in Lake Worth one day who lived up around Jupiter.  He was from up north, I think from New York or New Jersey and had moved down to Florida with his wife and family.  When I told him that I love palms and that the Coconut Palm is my favorite palm, he said that he didn't like palms, and I thought to myself, why would someone from a northern cold climate who doesn't like palms move to a tropical palm paradise with probably 200+ species growing around his area and millions of palms, both native and exotic throughout most of the the state?  It seems to me people like that would rather move to some place like Minnesota or Wyoming, or if they wanted to live in a "tropical" virtually palm free area, then move to a remote part of Baja, Mexico or the Sahara Dessert?

John

[Walt]

6 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Walt, thanks for the explanation of how and why you trim your palms.  In regard to the multi million dollar estate at Vero Beach, even if I had that kind of money and was looking to buy something like that, the scene of the scalped, if not BUTHCHERED Coconut Palms would really turn me off, and I wouldn't hesitate to tell the real estate company and even the owner.  Talk about BAD curb appeal.  By the way, when I lived in Coral Springs years ago, I met someone in Lake Worth one day who lived up around Jupiter.  He was from up north, I think from New York or New Jersey and had moved down to Florida with his wife and family.  When I told him that I love palms and that the Coconut Palm is my favorite palm, he said that he didn't like palms, and I thought to myself, why would someone from a northern cold climate who doesn't like palms move to a tropical palm paradise with probably 200+ species growing around his area and millions of palms, both native and exotic throughout most of the the state?  It seems to me people like that would rather move to some place like Minnesota or Wyoming, or if they wanted to live in a "tropical" virtually palm free area, then move to a remote part of Baja, Mexico or the Sahara Dessert?

John

John,

I'm not at all surprised to hear that guy from up north didn't like palms. I've experienced the exact same attitude from many people around here. I was a master gardener with my county extension office for 15 years, only resigning at the end of last year. I was the go to guy when customers came in to the help desk or called in about palm related problems or inquiries.  Other than general information, they really weren't into palms. Further, I think I'm the only Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society member in all of Highlands County, Florida. I've always loved palms since I was a child. Actually, I like the tropics and tropical plants, shrubs, and flowers. But palms are my favorite. My favorite is the royal palm, followed by the coconut.

The coconut palm was my favorite at first, but I was just floored when I saw my first royal palm in San Juan, Puerto Rico. When I was in the navy my ship would go to the Caribbean every spring for about a month. On my first trip to San Juan, and on my first liberty, I was walking around Old San Juan just taking in all the tropical trees, coconut palms, etc. I came across a old government  building that had the Spanish architecture, with columns and arches, and tiled roof, etc. A concrete walkway lead up to the frond steps of the building, with grass areas on each side of the wide walkway. But in the grass area, one on each side were two big Roystonea borinquena palms. My eyes were arrested by the big emerald green slick crown shafts, and just the look of the frond canopy and concrete like fat trunks. I had never seen a royal palm before and had no idea what species it was. All I know is that I was in awe of them. They contrasted so well with the old government building.

When I moved to Highlands County, Florida, in 1997 I didn't see any royal palms, and didn't expect to, being in zone 9. But my wife and I happened to drop by the county extension office and I struck up a conversation with the horticultural agent. We got to discussing palms and I told him it was too bad royal palms didn't grow here. He said royal palms absolutely grow here, and he told me where about five of them were growing. So my wife and I got into the car and went to find them. Sure enough they were there, and they were old ones. Then I started to find other old royal palms, but all of them were growing next to lakes where the nighttime temperatures were higher.

When I moved here there was no availability for royal palms. Now people are really planting them who have homes by lakes. Same for foxtails and bismarckias.

 

[Palmaceae]

Hello Walt, not to change the subject of this thread but how is your coconut doing, as I believe you said you saw the 30's recently?

[Walt]

10 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

Hello Walt, not to change the subject of this thread but how is your coconut doing, as I believe you said you saw the 30's recently?

Yes, I recorded exactly 33 degrees for my coldest low this winter, followed by 37 and 38 degrees (and some tenths). My coconut is really developing severe potassium deficiency in its lower fronds. It does that every winter The upper fronds are still nice and green. It also aborted about four small coconuts, I guess from the cold. The larger nuts are okay. I think we've seen the last of the cold nights. I intend to do my first fertilization with 8-2-12 this week. I will have to drive up into town tomorrow and check out the coconuts up there. Lows up in town run 7-8 degrees warmer than at my place, so I expect those palms to have fared better in terms of K deficiency.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

14 minutes ago, Walt said:

John,

I'm not at all surprised to hear that guy from up north didn't like palms. I've experienced the exact same attitude from many people around here. I was a master gardener with my county extension office for 15 years, only resigning at the end of last year. I was the go to guy when customers came in to the help desk or called in about palm related problems or inquiries.  Other than general information, they really weren't into palms. Further, I think I'm the only Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society member in all of Highlands County, Florida. I've always loved palms since I was a child. Actually, I like the tropics and tropical plants, shrubs, and flowers. But palms are my favorite. My favorite is the royal palm, followed by the coconut.

The coconut palm was my favorite at first, but I was just floored when I saw my first royal palm in San Juan, Puerto Rico. When I was in the navy my ship would go to the Caribbean every spring for about a month. On my first trip to San Juan, and on my first liberty, I was walking around Old San Juan just taking in all the tropical trees, coconut palms, etc. I came across a old government  building that had the Spanish architecture, with columns and arches, and tiled roof, etc. A concrete walkway lead up to the frond steps of the building, with grass areas on each side of the wide walkway. But in the grass area, one on each side were two big Roystonea borinquena palms. My eyes were arrested by the big emerald green slick crown shafts, and just the look of the frond canopy and concrete like fat trunks. I had never seen a royal palm before and had no idea what species it was. All I know is that I was in awe of them. They contrasted so well with the old government building.

When I moved to Highlands County, Florida, in 1997 I didn't see any royal palms, and didn't expect to, being in zone 9. But my wife and I happened to drop by the county extension office and I struck up a conversation with the horticultural agent. We got to discussing palms and I told him it was too bad royal palms didn't grow here. He said royal palms absolutely grow here, and he told me where about five of them were growing. So my wife and I got into the car and went to find them. Sure enough they were there, and they were old ones. Then I started to find other old royal palms, but all of them were growing next to lakes where the nighttime temperatures were higher.

When I moved here there was no availability for royal palms. Now people are really planting them who have homes by lakes. Same for foxtails and bismarckias.

 

Hey Walt,

It sounds we are kindred spirits.  I have loved palms and tropical plants ever since I was a boy.  I get that from my mother, while I get my love of the outdoors in general like camping and fishing, etc. from my dad.  My mother always loved hibiscus more than roses, unlike most women.  She was from St. Louis, but moved to Texas when she was 12 years old.  My dad was born in Schulendburg, Texas, and I was born in Abilene, Texas on the edge of the desert or so it seems being very arid.  You wouldn't thin a guy from that area would love palms and other tropical plants so much, but I do.  I have an aunt and uncle who live here in Corpus Christi that we used to come visit every year for Easter or Spring Break.  I would remember as a boy, I would see my first palms, California Fan Palms and a few Date Palms when we got to San Antonio, but when we got to Corpus Christi, there were even taller palms, the Mexican Fan Palms, a lot more California Fan Palms, and some more Date Palms.  That's about all that was grown here back in the '70's and '80's.  I remember one time driving along Ocean Dr. on the bay front, my parents told me the tall Mexican Fan Palms were Coconut Palms, and I remember looking up at the crown looking for coconuts.  I think my parents didn't know the difference between Coconut Palms and Mexican Fan Palms at the time or they may have just been joking with me.

Anyway, from the first trip we took to the Florida Keys in the summer of 1983, I fell in love with the REAL Coconut Palms when I first saw them in person at the Miami Airport.  I was only able to see a few as we landed and had our lay over waiting to board our commuter flight to Key West, but when we landed at Key West, they were everywhere and full of coconuts.  That is when I discovered what my favorite plant in the entire world is, but when my parents went back down there again two summers later, we landed at MIA, rented a car and drove to Keys.  On our way to US 1, I started seeing your favorites, the Royal Palms, some Cuban Royals, and when we got to the Homestead/Florida City area some Florida Royals, but I didn't know the difference at the time (By the way, I still think they are different or at least the Florida Royal I think is a distinct subspecies since it seems to grow taller, has a thinner trunk than the Cubans, and sometimes has a slight bend in the trunk about midway up, which I have never noticed in the Cubans.)  On our way back to MIA at the end of the week, we spent a night at a motel in Homestead and went to Everglades National Park.  At the park headquarters, I saw some absolutely beautiful royals growing in their native environment, and they became my second favorite palm.  The Coconut Palm has always been my favorite, while the Royal Palm has always been my second favorite.  My mother's favorite was the Queen Palm, and my father, though he didn't dislike palms never really liked them like me.  He was more into our Pecan Trees, Walnut Tree, and Peach Tree that we had in Abilene.  It's nice that apparently your wife is into palms and plants like you are.  My wife grew up in a very little country village in Mexico, but is very much a city girl now.  It's all I can do to drag her out in the yard with me for five minutes.

By the way, even in Brownsville in the '80's the only "exotic" palm I saw when we made a trip down there in 1987 was a Queen Palm at our motel.  it wasn't until the '90's and after that Royals, Foxtails, and a whole lot of other exotics, including Coconut Palms started becoming a lot more common.  I was told however by a lady who runs an exotic tropical fruit nursery in Bayview, near Brownsville, and who has carried Green Malayan Dwarfs before and has some nice Coconut Palms in her yard that before the 1983 freeze, they were fairly common in the Lower Rio Grande Valley (at least by Texas standards for common).

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

52 minutes ago, Walt said:

John,

I'm not at all surprised to hear that guy from up north didn't like palms. I've experienced the exact same attitude from many people around here. I was a master gardener with my county extension office for 15 years, only resigning at the end of last year. I was the go to guy when customers came in to the help desk or called in about palm related problems or inquiries.  Other than general information, they really weren't into palms. Further, I think I'm the only Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society member in all of Highlands County, Florida. I've always loved palms since I was a child. Actually, I like the tropics and tropical plants, shrubs, and flowers. But palms are my favorite. My favorite is the royal palm, followed by the coconut.

The coconut palm was my favorite at first, but I was just floored when I saw my first royal palm in San Juan, Puerto Rico. When I was in the navy my ship would go to the Caribbean every spring for about a month. On my first trip to San Juan, and on my first liberty, I was walking around Old San Juan just taking in all the tropical trees, coconut palms, etc. I came across a old government  building that had the Spanish architecture, with columns and arches, and tiled roof, etc. A concrete walkway lead up to the frond steps of the building, with grass areas on each side of the wide walkway. But in the grass area, one on each side were two big Roystonea borinquena palms. My eyes were arrested by the big emerald green slick crown shafts, and just the look of the frond canopy and concrete like fat trunks. I had never seen a royal palm before and had no idea what species it was. All I know is that I was in awe of them. They contrasted so well with the old government building.

When I moved to Highlands County, Florida, in 1997 I didn't see any royal palms, and didn't expect to, being in zone 9. But my wife and I happened to drop by the county extension office and I struck up a conversation with the horticultural agent. We got to discussing palms and I told him it was too bad royal palms didn't grow here. He said royal palms absolutely grow here, and he told me where about five of them were growing. So my wife and I got into the car and went to find them. Sure enough they were there, and they were old ones. Then I started to find other old royal palms, but all of them were growing next to lakes where the nighttime temperatures were higher.

When I moved here there was no availability for royal palms. Now people are really planting them who have homes by lakes. Same for foxtails and bismarckias.

 

Walt,

Since you love Royal Palms, be sure to check out a new thread I am going to start on Royal Palms in Corpus Christi, or maybe I will title it Royal Palms in Corpus Christi and the RGV, since there are more of them and they are a little bigger down there than here.

John

[Walt]

9 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Hey Walt,

It sounds we are kindred spirits.  I have loved palms and tropical plants ever since I was a boy.  I get that from my mother, while I get my love of the outdoors in general like camping and fishing, etc. from my dad.  My mother always loved hibiscus more than roses, unlike most women.  She was from St. Louis, but moved to Texas when she was 12 years old.  My dad was born in Schulendburg, Texas, and I was born in Abilene, Texas on the edge of the desert or so it seems being very arid.  You wouldn't thin a guy from that area would love palms and other tropical plants so much, but I do.  I have an aunt and uncle who live here in Corpus Christi that we used to come visit every year for Easter or Spring Break.  I would remember as a boy, I would see my first palms, California Fan Palms and a few Date Palms when we got to San Antonio, but when we got to Corpus Christi, there were even taller palms, the Mexican Fan Palms, a lot more California Fan Palms, and some more Date Palms.  That's about all that was grown here back in the '70's and '80's.  I remember one time driving along Ocean Dr. on the bay front, my parents told me the tall Mexican Fan Palms were Coconut Palms, and I remember looking up at the crown looking for coconuts.  I think my parents didn't know the difference between Coconut Palms and Mexican Fan Palms at the time or they may have just been joking with me.

Anyway, from the first trip we took to the Florida Keys in the summer of 1983, I fell in love with the REAL Coconut Palms when I first saw them in person at the Miami Airport.  I was only able to see a few as we landed and had our lay over waiting to board our commuter flight to Key West, but when we landed at Key West, they were everywhere and full of coconuts.  That is when I discovered what my favorite plant in the entire world is, but when my parents went back down there again two summers later, we landed at MIA, rented a car and drove to Keys.  On our way to US 1, I started seeing your favorites, the Royal Palms, some Cuban Royals, and when we got to the Homestead/Florida City area some Florida Royals, but I didn't know the difference at the time (By the way, I still think they are different or at least the Florida Royal I think is a distinct subspecies since it seems to grow taller, has a thinner trunk than the Cubans, and sometimes has a slight bend in the trunk about midway up, which I have never noticed in the Cubans.)  On our way back to MIA at the end of the week, we spent a night at a motel in Homestead and went to Everglades National Park.  At the park headquarters, I saw some absolutely beautiful royals growing in their native environment, and they became my second favorite palm.  The Coconut Palm has always been my favorite, while the Royal Palm has always been my second favorite.  My mother's favorite was the Queen Palm, and my father, though he didn't dislike palms never really liked them like me.  He was more into our Pecan Trees, Walnut Tree, and Peach Tree that we had in Abilene.  It's nice that apparently your wife is into palms and plants like you are.  My wife grew up in a very little country village in Mexico, but is very much a city girl now.  It's all I can do to drag her out in the yard with me for five minutes.

By the way, even in Brownsville in the '80's the only "exotic" palm I saw when we made a trip down there in 1987 was a Queen Palm at our motel.  it wasn't until the '90's and after that Royals, Foxtails, and a whole lot of other exotics, including Coconut Palms started becoming a lot more common.  I was told however by a lady who runs an exotic tropical fruit nursery in Bayview, near Brownsville, and who has carried Green Malayan Dwarfs before and has some nice Coconut Palms in her yard that before the 1983 freeze, they were fairly common in the Lower Rio Grande Valley (at least by Texas standards for common).

John

John,

I think most non palm people, when the think of palms, the coconut palms comes to mind first. I know it did for me. Like most folks, I used to think all palms were tropical in nature and had no idea there were nearly 3,000 species of them.

When I was in the navy, my second duty station was in Charleston, S.C. That's were I saw my first Butia capitata. There were some old ones right inside the main gate, and they caught my eye immediately. I was familiar at the time with Sabal palmetto, as I had been to South Carolina while in High School, but didn't know anything about them other than they were some species of palm. I remember I didn't know why some had clean trunks and others had all the crisscrossed dead frond bases on them.

But when I saw the butia, my first thought was that they looked too tropical (with pinnate leaves) to be growing in Charleston. Then, one day I drove down to the waterfront in Charleston where there are lots of historic brick homes with wrought iron fences and gates. I saw more butia palms, but also Washingtonia robusta and Canary Island dates. I was very intrigued as I had no idea palms like that could grow in Charleston because, again, I thought most palms were tropical.

I agree that the Florida royals (supposedly R. elata, at least the old ones I've seen around here) have smaller diameter trunk than R. regia. About one mile from me there's about 20 or so growing on the S.E. end of Lake Clay. These are the ones that were planted back in the 1950s. Where their source came from I don't know. What I do know is that the trunks are not fat. Perhaps this could be due to different growing conditions, I don't know.

Over on the east side of Lake Istokpoga (our county's largest lake at 43 square miles) are some large royal palms. Some are shown in the below photo I took back in January of 2009. I don't know when these were planted, and these are probably R. regia.

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

8 hours ago, Walt said:

John,

I think most non palm people, when the think of palms, the coconut palms comes to mind first. I know it did for me. Like most folks, I used to think all palms were tropical in nature and had no idea there were nearly 3,000 species of them.

When I was in the navy, my second duty station was in Charleston, S.C. That's were I saw my first Butia capitata. There were some old ones right inside the main gate, and they caught my eye immediately. I was familiar at the time with Sabal palmetto, as I had been to South Carolina while in High School, but didn't know anything about them other than they were some species of palm. I remember I didn't know why some had clean trunks and others had all the crisscrossed dead frond bases on them.

But when I saw the butia, my first thought was that they looked too tropical (with pinnate leaves) to be growing in Charleston. Then, one day I drove down to the waterfront in Charleston where there are lots of historic brick homes with wrought iron fences and gates. I saw more butia palms, but also Washingtonia robusta and Canary Island dates. I was very intrigued as I had no idea palms like that could grow in Charleston because, again, I thought most palms were tropical.

I agree that the Florida royals (supposedly R. elata, at least the old ones I've seen around here) have smaller diameter trunk than R. regia. About one mile from me there's about 20 or so growing on the S.E. end of Lake Clay. These are the ones that were planted back in the 1950s. Where their source came from I don't know. What I do know is that the trunks are not fat. Perhaps this could be due to different growing conditions, I don't know.

Over on the east side of Lake Istokpoga (our county's largest lake at 43 square miles) are some large royal palms. Some are shown in the below photo I took back in January of 2009. I don't know when these were planted, and these are probably R. regia.

 

Nice photos, Walt.  I wish they could get that big here, but the only ones I have seen that tall over here are south of me on the leeward side of a tall condo building on South Padre Island on either side of the front doors.  I have never been right up to them, and traffic can be a nightmare at certain times at South Padre (like Spring Break), so I don't have any photos of them.

John

[Walt]

20 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Hello Walt, not to change the subject of this thread but how is your coconut doing, as I believe you said you saw the 30's recently?

I drove up in town today, and all the coconut palms up there are exhibiting potassium deficiency on the lowermost fronds, even though they didn't see as low temperatures that I did, but they still experienced lots of cool weather during the month of January and February.

[Palmaceae]

Thanks for the pictures Walt, most of the coconuts in this area look the same even though we never went below 40.

[Alicehunter2000]

So you all are telling me that leaving a full head of leaves on something like a tall washie is the wise thing to do just prior to a hurricane making landfall?

I have watched these palms in high winds with both a full head and hurricane cut (only because the Polar Vortex completely killed all the fronds) and I trimmed everything off. I can tell you that it makes a huge difference in how much these are buffeted by the wind and That's just with your normal every month 40mph thunderstorms. 

I would imagine the true reason to "hurricane cut" is for just that.....a hurricane. 70 plus mph sustained wind. Especially for trees that are very tall and are susceptible to the physics of leverage, Sandy soil, recent transplants, exposed locations etc.

What has been others hurricane and high wind  experiences and crown fullness?

[rick]

1 hour ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

So you all are telling me that leaving a full head of leaves on something like a tall washie is the wise thing to do just prior to a hurricane making landfall?

I have watched these palms in high winds with both a full head and hurricane cut (only because the Polar Vortex completely killed all the fronds) and I trimmed everything off. I can tell you that it makes a huge difference in how much these are buffeted by the wind and That's just with your normal every month 40mph thunderstorms. 

I would imagine the true reason to "hurricane cut" is for just that.....a hurricane. 70 plus mph sustained wind. Especially for trees that are very tall and are susceptible to the physics of leverage, Sandy soil, recent transplants, exposed locations etc.

What has been others hurricane and high wind  experiences and crown fullness?

Washies evolved in an area that doesn't naturally get hurricanes so of course they wouldn't hold up well. The primary discussion in this thread has been about sabals, royals, and coconuts which have adapted to withstand hurricanes. Their crowns provide a buffer to protect the growth point so a "hurricane cut" is totally unnecessary.  During bad storms its common to see royal palm fronds separated from the crownshaft. Also the vast majority of these hurricane cuts are done as a year round butchering job rather than a single trim.

[Palmaceae]

11 hours ago, rick said:

Washies evolved in an area that doesn't naturally get hurricanes so of course they wouldn't hold up well. The primary discussion in this thread has been about sabals, royals, and coconuts which have adapted to withstand hurricanes. Their crowns provide a buffer to protect the growth point so a "hurricane cut" is totally unnecessary.  During bad storms its common to see royal palm fronds separated from the crownshaft. Also the vast majority of these hurricane cuts are done as a year round butchering job rather than a single trim.

Rick,

I agree, as Cape Coral had a tornado a few weeks ago and I drove past the area past weekend, but did not get any pictures.  But with winds at 135MPH all the palms in that area were damaged.  Most of the fronds on the windward side of the palms were gone, especially on the royals, even the coconuts were severely damaged. I saw a 30' Bismarkia that the whole crown was snapped off.  So not sure any hurricane cut would have helped at all at least in this case?

[Alicehunter2000]

Understood....I guess I was just curious to know if there has been any actual studies done to see if hurricane cutting would actually prevent palms from tipping over or being uprooted. Most taller Sabals, Royals etc. are transplanted from somewhere else. I would imagine that they would be quite unstable during high winds the first few years until a root system is firmly established. Bracing is quite common during the first year, but after that, a hurricane might put quite a lot of force on the huge surface area that a full crown provides. When I look at pictures of the aftermath of hurricanes, many times I see telephone poles still standing. Would they still be standing if they had a huge wind catcher at the top of them?

[rick]

5 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Understood....I guess I was just curious to know if there has been any actual studies done to see if hurricane cutting would actually prevent palms from tipping over or being uprooted. Most taller Sabals, Royals etc. are transplanted from somewhere else. I would imagine that they would be quite unstable during high winds the first few years until a root system is firmly established. Bracing is quite common during the first year, but after that, a hurricane might put quite a lot of force on the huge surface area that a full crown provides. When I look at pictures of the aftermath of hurricanes, many times I see telephone poles still standing. Would they still be standing if they had a huge wind catcher at the top of them?

 

 

Here's a list a few things to read http://hurricanecut.com/reference.html 

For transplanting its true that severely trimming can help improve survival rates. The braces used will help support the palm at first but after a year the palm would have regrown its root system and the braces are not needed. Also if you watch these transplanted palms it takes a several years for them to fully regrow their canopies. Also these post transplant canopies tend to be much smaller than palms of similar size that were grown in place. It seems to take these palms several years to fully recover.

[Walt]

Hurricane cutting (at least for Sabal palmetto) is done to facilitate the transplanting of a field dug palm where all it's roots were severed. Virtually all severed roots of Sabal palmetto die all the way back (not branch from severed point) like other palm species do. The palm has to totally regenerate new roots. Thus all existing fronds are cut off so that the palm isn't trying to support the fronds, instead directing its stored starches to the root initiation zone (at least that is my take on what I read from University of Florida literature).

Further, I also read that hurricane cutting Sabal palmetto (and other species, such as Cocos nucifera) doesn't necessarily protect it from high wind. Check paragraph below Figure 11 in University of Florida publication (Pruning Palms) below:

 http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ep443

 

About 10 years ago I had six Sabal palmettos (all hurricane cut) planted at my driveway entrance. They were field dug and transplanted all within days. The first thing these palms did was to send up new inflorescences. I guess the palms, reacting from the trauma of having all its roots severed and fronds removed, exhibited a survival response and sent up inflorescences so that seed could be made, thereby insuring survival of the species.

 

[Alicehunter2000]

Walt, you know Ken would argue with you about the UF publication that everyone cites. He says it's a conspiracy  (kind of) lol.

Rick, I figured you would find a pic of a telephone pole that was tipped over. Anyone here a physics major? How much force is applied to the additional surface area? ....guess I should read the above publication you cited....before chewing on my foot.

I understand being a native Floridan all of what yall are saying and have gone through many hurricanes here on the coast ....but I gotta tell you....having large transplanted palms in my beach sand for only 3 years...it would be awfully tempting to trim these if I had a hurricane bearing down on me.

[Walt]

3 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Walt, you know Ken would argue with you about the UF publication that everyone cites. He says it's a conspiracy  (kind of) lol.

Rick, I figured you would find a pic of a telephone pole that was tipped over. Anyone here a physics major? How much force is applied to the additional surface area? ....guess I should read the above publication you cited....before chewing on my foot.

I understand being a native Floridan all of what yall are saying and have gone through many hurricanes here on the coast ....but I gotta tell you....having large transplanted palms in my beach sand for only 3 years...it would be awfully tempting to trim these if I had a hurricane bearing down on me.

Since I can't contradict the UF Palm Pruning publication, I have to defer to their research.

One publication that I've always disagreed with -- and can prove it factually -- was their old (it was revised) publication on Serenoa repens. The publication used to say Serenoa repens only grew at the rate of about .30 (or so) an inch a year (and slower in the northern end of their range), and that many  Serenoa repens may be as much as 800 years old!

No way was that publication correct, as I've grown S. repens from seed, some that have developed two feet of trunk in 10 years time. I've watched S. repens come up naturally on my property, and I have "then and now" photos to prove they grew far, far faster than UF publication used to state. The publication has been revised and they no longer state the growth rate.

[Alicehunter2000]

Yes, agreed they are much faster than .30/year

Ken told me that he has seen S. palmetto have a lot of new growth from the tips of where they were correctly pruned and that the reason that they cite studies showing growth only coming from new generation from the subterranean trunk. He  said that the major tree guys funded the studies and that it is beneficial for them to hurricane cut so they can put more palms on a truck and transplant in a much quicker and cost effective manner....more$$. 

There has been somewhat of a push it seems lately to root prune Sabal palmetto and transplant with a full crown. The big development across the street from me is doing this. It would be nice to see this practice more often.....but it all goes back to time/money for most developers and Sabal palmetto diggers.

[Walt]

I think the science of field transplanting of palms (at least many species) is still developing. I recall an article in "Palms" maybe 7-8 years ago (I think Donald Hodell UC at Irivine) wrote it) where they field transplanted a large population of Washingtonia robusta.

One group was transplanted and the full crown of fronds was left.

The next group also had a full crown of fronds, but they were cinched up to reduce foliage exposure to sun and air to reduce transpiration, etc.

The next group was hurricane cut.

There may have been a further group that had half the crowns removed, I don't recall. But the upshot was, they wanted to see what method of transplanting provided the best and fastest recovery, etc. And I think the conclusion was -- it made little or no difference!

I got in touch with Don Hodell and told him about my transplanting experience with Washingtonia robusta. I had 10 planted 10 years ago that I bought from a newly opening Lowes. Six of the palms had 2-3 feet of unbooted trunk. Four had about 4-5 feet of unbooted trunk. I had them professionally planted by a local nursery (Lowe's only delivered them). These palms grew well for about one year, then ever one of them got some kind of disease. I had to bud and root drench them with Cleary's fungicide. Four palms died. I replanted the four dead ones with W. robusta I grew from seed. However, these palms grow snail-like is speed.

I can't for the life of my grow W. robusta.  I've tried many times, planting them in different areas of my property, but they hardly grow. Yet, they grow as fast as weeds for others. I've also had the same slow growing experience with three species of Copernicia, too, as well as others species of palms. All my palms get fed four times a year with 8-2-12. Another plant that doesn't grow for me is papaya. I've tried three varieties. A close neighbor (Mexican) asked  if he could plant some papaya on my property right next to the property line. I told him to go ahead and plant them, but don't expect them to grow (I told him about my experience). Sure enough. He planted about six plants and they have done nothing. They never got more than 4 feet high.

[Walt]

On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2016‎ ‎6‎:‎57‎:‎29‎, Palmaceae said:

Thanks for the pictures Walt, most of the coconuts in this area look the same even though we never went below 40.

This is what my coconut palm looked like yesterday (February 16th), showing severe potassium deficiency and probably some degree of cold damage since my lowest low was 33 degrees one morning in January. It looked the same last winter, but by summer's end it had a full crown of green fronds again.

 

[rick]

12 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Walt, you know Ken would argue with you about the UF publication that everyone cites. He says it's a conspiracy  (kind of) lol.

Rick, I figured you would find a pic of a telephone pole that was tipped over. Anyone here a physics major? How much force is applied to the additional surface area? ....guess I should read the above publication you cited....before chewing on my foot.

I understand being a native Floridan all of what yall are saying and have gone through many hurricanes here on the coast ....but I gotta tell you....having large transplanted palms in my beach sand for only 3 years...it would be awfully tempting to trim these if I had a hurricane bearing down on me.

It is tempting but don't underestimate palm roots. Just think about how difficult it is to try and dig up a palm in the first place. After 3 years your palms should be well rooted even in pure sand.

I do agree with Walt about Serenoa. I have several mature clumps that are easily putting an inch of trunk or more per year.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

2 hours ago, Walt said:

This is what my coconut palm looked like yesterday (February 16th), showing severe potassium deficiency and probably some degree of cold damage since my lowest low was 33 degrees one morning in January. It looked the same last winter, but by summer's end it had a full crown of green fronds again.

 

Walt,

If my Corpus Christi Coconut Palms could ever look as good as yours with even just a few nuts on them, I would be very happy!  Since I live in a marginal northernmost limit climate for them here in Texas, I think yours looks great, especially for a more cold sensitive Green Malayan.  You should try a Jamaican Tall sometime.  I bet it would look twice as good.

John

[Palmaceae]

9 hours ago, Walt said:

This is what my coconut palm looked like yesterday (February 16th), showing severe potassium deficiency and probably some degree of cold damage since my lowest low was 33 degrees one morning in January. It looked the same last winter, but by summer's end it had a full crown of green fronds again.

 

Thanks Walt, not bad at all for 33 degrees.  Even mine in Cape Coral had a bit of cold damage on the lower fronds, not too noticeable but I can tell.

[Walt]

11 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Walt,

If my Corpus Christi Coconut Palms could ever look as good as yours with even just a few nuts on them, I would be very happy!  Since I live in a marginal northernmost limit climate for them here in Texas, I think yours looks great, especially for a more cold sensitive Green Malayan.  You should try a Jamaican Tall sometime.  I bet it would look twice as good.

John

John, My coconut would have been killed years ago, especially in December of 2010 when I  had 11 straight nights below 40 degrees, six of those nights below 30 degrees! There were some coconut palms killed at various lakeside locations, although the majority survived. They survived because ever one of those nights were radiational cooling nights, so the lake water provided enough heat to protect them. Only at the very end of the 11-day period did the lake waters cool down to where the lakeside locations got down into the low 30s, but for only one night.

At that time I had my coconut's trunk and meristem wrapped with a heating coil, then wrapped over (several wraps) with mover's quilts. That kept the trunk and meristem from dropping below 55 degrees, as I had a remote digital thermometer sensor under the wraps (but away from the heating coil) and I monitored the temperature, and the lowest it got was 55 degrees. The canopy of fronds were fried, but by the end of fall (after 9-10 months of growing new fronds) my coconut looked respectable.

If you saw my post on how I protected my coconut palm you will see it's a foolproof way of keeping a palm from being killed, at least under the conditions I experience.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

8 hours ago, Walt said:

John, My coconut would have been killed years ago, especially in December of 2010 when I  had 11 straight nights below 40 degrees, six of those nights below 30 degrees! There were some coconut palms killed at various lakeside locations, although the majority survived. They survived because ever one of those nights were radiational cooling nights, so the lake water provided enough heat to protect them. Only at the very end of the 11-day period did the lake waters cool down to where the lakeside locations got down into the low 30s, but for only one night.

At that time I had my coconut's trunk and meristem wrapped with a heating coil, then wrapped over (several wraps) with mover's quilts. That kept the trunk and meristem from dropping below 55 degrees, as I had a remote digital thermometer sensor under the wraps (but away from the heating coil) and I monitored the temperature, and the lowest it got was 55 degrees. The canopy of fronds were fried, but by the end of fall (after 9-10 months of growing new fronds) my coconut looked respectable.

If you saw my post on how I protected my coconut palm you will see it's a foolproof way of keeping a palm from being killed, at least under the conditions I experience.

Walt,

I remember reading your post about how you protected your palm.  I love my palms, but that is getting more elaborate than I am willing to go, and I am on a shoestring budget anyway.  I figure, I will enjoy my palms as long as I can, wrap the trunks of the really young cold sensitive ones with an old towel or old sheets on really chilly nights, and try to naturally increase my soil temps by about 2F to 3F with 100% organic compost and my organic fertilizer, since I have heard that increased healthy microbial activity warms the soil, and then basically my palms are on their own for surviving the winters.

I really do think you should try a Jamaican Tall or two in addition to your Green Malayan, especially from viable nuts from Central Florida Jamaicans, because I think they would make it through your average winters with no problems, and handle the chilly winters better, as well as recover faster in the spring than your Green Malayan.

John

[Walt]

9 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Walt,

I remember reading your post about how you protected your palm.  I love my palms, but that is getting more elaborate than I am willing to go, and I am on a shoestring budget anyway.  I figure, I will enjoy my palms as long as I can, wrap the trunks of the really young cold sensitive ones with an old towel or old sheets on really chilly nights, and try to naturally increase my soil temps by about 2F to 3F with 100% organic compost and my organic fertilizer, since I have heard that increased healthy microbial activity warms the soil, and then basically my palms are on their own for surviving the winters.

I really do think you should try a Jamaican Tall or two in addition to your Green Malayan, especially from viable nuts from Central Florida Jamaicans, because I think they would make it through your average winters with no problems, and handle the chilly winters better, as well as recover faster in the spring than your Green Malayan.

John

John,

I once tried two golden Malayans. Both got whacked by freezes. They weren't killed outright but languished for about two years before finally dying. One thing I've observed in many tropical palms is that once they get severely cold damaged, even if they survive, they never grow normally again. I've had Ravenea rivularis (when small) get freeze damaged and their growth would slow down to maybe 1/4 the normal growing (frond production) rate. Same with many other species. But all of these species were trunkless, so it may not necessarily apply to trunked palms. Also, all of these palms were freeze damage due to radiational freezes, and the coldest air is always nearest the ground level  -- right where the meristem of these palms were.

The only palm I will protect now is my coconut palm. All the rest I used to protect are too tall now, not to mention I'm not getting any younger, plus I've lost much of my desire to go all out protecting palms and landscape shrubs that takes days to install and days to remove and pack back up.

Also, just wrapping a palm with blankets will not provide much protection unless you also employee some supplemental heat, since (because palms don't produce heat), there will be no heat to hold in. On the other hand, if a palm is exposed to direct sunlight all day long, then you wrap the meristem and trunk with a heavy wrap, that will at least slow down the transfer of heat from the palm to the surrounding air, and quite possibly buy you 2-3 more hours of time before the palm's core dropped to a detrimental temperature.

I know my coconut palm's trunk can get noticeably warm on a winter day from direct sun radiation. When I do protect this palm, even if I use heating coils, I don't install the thermal wraps (mover's quilts) until sundown so as to take advantage of the sun's radiation.

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

14 hours ago, Walt said:

John,

I once tried two golden Malayans. Both got whacked by freezes. They weren't killed outright but languished for about two years before finally dying. One thing I've observed in many tropical palms is that once they get severely cold damaged, even if they survive, they never grow normally again. I've had Ravenea rivularis (when small) get freeze damaged and their growth would slow down to maybe 1/4 the normal growing (frond production) rate. Same with many other species. But all of these species were trunkless, so it may not necessarily apply to trunked palms. Also, all of these palms were freeze damage due to radiational freezes, and the coldest air is always nearest the ground level  -- right where the meristem of these palms were.

The only palm I will protect now is my coconut palm. All the rest I used to protect are too tall now, not to mention I'm not getting any younger, plus I've lost much of my desire to go all out protecting palms and landscape shrubs that takes days to install and days to remove and pack back up.

Also, just wrapping a palm with blankets will not provide much protection unless you also employee some supplemental heat, since (because palms don't produce heat), there will be no heat to hold in. On the other hand, if a palm is exposed to direct sunlight all day long, then you wrap the meristem and trunk with a heavy wrap, that will at least slow down the transfer of heat from the palm to the surrounding air, and quite possibly buy you 2-3 more hours of time before the palm's core dropped to a detrimental temperature.

I know my coconut palm's trunk can get noticeably warm on a winter day from direct sun radiation. When I do protect this palm, even if I use heating coils, I don't install the thermal wraps (mover's quilts) until sundown so as to take advantage of the sun's radiation.

 

Walt,

I try to wrap my young palms with the blankets, etc. during the daytime when the sun is still shining to give them that additional little bit of heat going into the night on a really chilly night.  I think it might mean the difference between them being severely cold injured and being only moderately cold injured, but I only do it if I think there is a chance that temps will fall below 32F, but so far I have not gotten below 33.6F a couple of times in the 4 winters I have lived here.  Even with a Coconut Palm, if it is established and just a juvenile starting to trunk, especially if it is a tall variety, I wouldn't even be too concerned with  quick dip down to 30F for a few hours.  Our Texas Coconut Palms, once they are established seem to adapt to the occasional light freezes and even yearly or nearly yearly frosts, but what they can't handle, especially in the case of the Malayan Dwarfs is the prolonged chilly damp (but not necessarily freezing) weather with highs only in the 40'sF and low 50'sF and lows in the 30'sF with drizzle or light rain for a week or two straight.  I have seen Mexican Talls survive these conditions, but are cold injured, but the Malayans often croak after a week and a half to two straight weeks of such weather, though the Green Malayans do seem to hold on a little longer than the Golden Malayans.  Ironically my little Yellow Malayan that I sprouted from a coconut collected off the beach at Padre Island last year and is only 2ft. tall and is only 6 months old came through a light frost we had a few weeks ago with a low of 33.6F and another night of 38F just fine and is growing again.  I thought that the Yellow Malayans were the least cold hardy of the 3 Malayan Dwarfs.  It does have the brown spotting of Potassium deficiency though that all mine get to some degree or another, with my little Mexican Tall having very little and virtually no cold injury at all.

John

P.S.  I had a 6ft. tall in overall height beautiful Golden Malayan that I got from the Davie area near Ft. Lauderdale when it was younger that was putting out a new spear every three weeks, but by the middle of Feb. 2014 was done for.  We had 5 frosts that winter, with 3 of them heavy frosts by South Texas standards, but only got down to 33.6F for our lowest at my place that winter.

[Walt]

8 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Walt,

I try to wrap my young palms with the blankets, etc. during the daytime when the sun is still shining to give them that additional little bit of heat going into the night on a really chilly night.  I think it might mean the difference between them being severely cold injured and being only moderately cold injured, but I only do it if I think there is a chance that temps will fall below 32F, but so far I have not gotten below 33.6F a couple of times in the 4 winters I have lived here.  Even with a Coconut Palm, if it is established and just a juvenile starting to trunk, especially if it is a tall variety, I wouldn't even be too concerned with  quick dip down to 30F for a few hours.  Our Texas Coconut Palms, once they are established seem to adapt to the occasional light freezes and even yearly or nearly yearly frosts, but what they can't handle, especially in the case of the Malayan Dwarfs is the prolonged chilly damp (but not necessarily freezing) weather with highs only in the 40'sF and low 50'sF and lows in the 30'sF with drizzle or light rain for a week or two straight.  I have seen Mexican Talls survive these conditions, but are cold injured, but the Malayans often croak after a week and a half to two straight weeks of such weather, though the Green Malayans do seem to hold on a little longer than the Golden Malayans.  Ironically my little Yellow Malayan that I sprouted from a coconut collected off the beach at Padre Island last year and is only 2ft. tall and is only 6 months old came through a light frost we had a few weeks ago with a low of 33.6F and another night of 38F just fine and is growing again.  I thought that the Yellow Malayans were the least cold hardy of the 3 Malayan Dwarfs.  It does have the brown spotting of Potassium deficiency though that all mine get to some degree or another, with my little Mexican Tall having very little and virtually no cold injury at all.

John

P.S.  I had a 6ft. tall in overall height beautiful Golden Malayan that I got from the Davie area near Ft. Lauderdale when it was younger that was putting out a new spear every three weeks, but by the middle of Feb. 2014 was done for.  We had 5 frosts that winter, with 3 of them heavy frosts by South Texas standards, but only got down to 33.6F for our lowest at my place that winter.

John,

If I lived on a lakefront property on one of the larger lakes here in Highlands County, by now I would have had central Florida renowned tropical palm garden, with more coconut palm varieties you could shake a stick at. I've thrown in the towel trying to grow zone 10b and up species of palms in my 9b location. It seems most folks that live in the most desirable (for tropical palm growing) locations here in Highlands County have little or no interest to do so.

Below are some photos of coconut palms growing in lakefront communities.

[Walt]

Below is a Google photo taken in 2011 of two coconut palms growing in Sebring, Florida. You can see they are cold damaged and recovering from the 11-day cold spell and freezes from December of 2010.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4709715,-81.4364342,3a,75y,129.05h,86.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqwiy4vsRDVVeNIWa-1lnYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In the photo below taken in 2013 are the same palms fully recovered.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

14 hours ago, Walt said:

Below is a Google photo taken in 2011 of two coconut palms growing in Sebring, Florida. You can see they are cold damaged and recovering from the 11-day cold spell and freezes from December of 2010.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.4709715,-81.4364342,3a,75y,129.05h,86.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqwiy4vsRDVVeNIWa-1lnYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In the photo below taken in 2013 are the same palms fully recovered.

Walt,

Those are beautiful Coconut Palms!  The only ones that come anywhere close to looking like those here in Texas are the well watered and fertilized ones in the Brownsville and South Padre Island area.  I know what you mean about your yard.  My wife and I unfortunately bought a little house with a little yard over here in a cold pocket in Flour Bluff.  Even though it is a small peninsula in Corpus Christi, and the Laguna Madre is just .6 of a mile to my east, and the deeper and much wider Corpus Christi Bay is just about 3 miles to my north, and the small shallow Oso Bay is just about 2.5 miles to my west, all of which should give me a pretty good water effect, my yard is unfortunately a cold pocket.  On many cold nights, my yard is only about 2F or 3F warmer than the airport, which is about 17 miles or more inland from me!  My yard should easily be about 6F to 8F warmer at night than the airport, but I think I average only about 3F or 4F warmer, and of course a little cooler in the day than the airport, which is to be expected this close to the water.  It seems like some areas in my immediate vicinity are a few degrees warmer than my place at night in the winter, and yet I am on a slight ridge that gently slopes down toward the Laguna Madre.  Those who live around here with yards somewhat warmer than mine at night in the winter, for the most part don't appreciate the kind of tropical trees and plants they could potentially grow in their yards, but tropical landscaping is gradually becoming more popular here.    There are some yards bordering on the larger canals on Padre Island just a few miles east of me that could have Coconut Palms, especially the more cold hardy tall varieties looking almost as good as the ones in your second photo above, yet almost no one plants them there.  They could also grow a LOT more Royal Palms, Foxtails, Triangles, Bismarcks, Kings, etc., etc., etc. than they do, but most of the yards have just the typical Washingtonias, Sabals, and a few Date Palms.  Queen Palms, though have really become popular here over the last 20 years, and now are probably second only to the Washingtonias in popularity.

There is a new house being built on the island with a large canal on the north side of the backyard (an ideal location to plant Mexican Tall and Jamaican Tall Coconut Palms in this area, since during mild winters the canal yards on the island sometimes don't drop below 38F to 40F).  However, 11 Cuban Royals are going to be planted in the yard.  I know the landscaper and he has asked me to be a consultant for him on the palms and to fertilize them for him.

John

[Walt]

John,

When my wife and I moved to Highlands County in 1997, we traversed all through the county looking for a home/property. We were living on a small property temporarily until we could find what we wanted. As such, we looked at 100s of property listings that took us all over. In all my travels I only found two coconut palms. Of the royal palms I found, they were old and at lakeside locations.

There was absolutely no availability of coconut palms, royals, foxtails, bismarckia, kings, etc., at any of the many plant nurseries and big box stores. In fact, there wasn't a Home Depot or Lowes, only a Walmart (not super Walmart). So it was little wonder there wasn't more tropical palm species. Moreover, the majority of residents here were not of affluent means. But that has changed greatly since we moved here. More and more people of financial means are moving here, many from south Florida that are fed up with various conditions down there. They are buying up lakefront properties. They want the tropical palms they had in south Florida and are having mature coconuts, royals, solitaires, etc., brought in from south Florida (mostly the Homestead area growers). Also, there's far more availability now of more tropical palms. The upshot is, is that more and more people are planting more tropical species.

When I first move here I went to every nursery in Highlands County inquiring about royals, bismarckia, and archontophoenix species. These bozo's didn't have a clue. They looked at me like I had just landed from Mars. All they knew about was the everyday garden variety of palms (washingtonia, queens, butia, etc.). I offered to give them money up front to special order many species I wanted, but they weren't interested. Well, over the years I got what I wanted and I don't patronize those nurseries. I don't need them now.

Eventually, we got a new Home Depot. I got the nursery manager to special order me many palms they normally didn't stock because Home Depot has planting zones, and HD in Highlands County can't get some of the palms like Dade County (Miami area) can. We also finally got a Lowes and a Super Walmart.

When I joined the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society I befriended many members whom sold me palm species the big box stores didn't sell. They were a great resource. I pretty much have all the species of palms I want now, plus a fairly mature palm garden. I would like this year to be the last in terms of me propagating palms from seed, and I want to convert my  20' wide by 36' long (9-1/2' high in middle) combination greenhouse and shade house to a carport or shelter for my mowers, etc. From here on out I just want to maintain what I have, as I must spend lots of time maintaining everything (trimming palms, mowing, getting up tree litter, keeping down the weeds and vines, etc.).