OUTRAGE

[sur4z]

I'm outraged the manager of this golf club let the palms be scalped.

I'm outraged that a local tree trimming outfit would scalp the palms.

I'm outraged that membership of this golf club aren't outraged to have to look at these scalped palms.

[bgl]

Deliberate and intentional palm mutilation - someone needs to get arrested!

[Kim]

When I see something like that, I wonder, "What were they thinking??" It simply makes no sense from any perspective. If you are a member of that club, I hope you will express your outrage to management.

[NorCalKing]

Ugly!

[_Keith]

Ugly yes, sad to see yes, but not outraged. Their property to do with as they will.

[trioderob]

[sur4z]

Kim- I am not a member of this golf club but I drive by it twice a day going to and from work. This is the first time in recent memory that this has happened. This course has been around since 1917 and it is always kept immaculate. I have no idea what they were thinking. One, it looks horrible and two, it is not good for the palms.-Peter

[azurebird]

The arboreal equivalent of a poodle cut. Ghastly!

[MKIVRYAN]

I agree it looks bad but it is simple why this is done. The land owners want to go as long as possible between trimmings to save money. I do the same thing when I get my hair cut. As short as possible so I can go as long as possible before I go back.

[Steve the palmreader]

Must be some tree trimmers from N.Y.

[DoomsDave]

Dopey, but not fatal.

(Please don't kill me for the sins I commit against my own palms! For they are legion!)

[azurebird]

This is how our local power company, SDGE, trims palms in Fallbrook. 100% mortality rate.

[Gonzer]

I agree it looks bad but it is simple why this is done. The land owners want to go as long as possible between trimmings to save money. I do the same thing when I get my hair cut. As short as possible so I can go as long as possible before I go back.

Exactly, the cost per unit (one tree) can add up. Besides, it's not like Washingtonias are slow growers. You'll forget all about this in a month.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I agree it looks bad but it is simple why this is done. The land owners want to go as long as possible between trimmings to save money. I do the same thing when I get my hair cut. As short as possible so I can go as long as possible before I go back.

Exactly, the cost per unit (one tree) can add up. Besides, it's not like Washingtonias are slow growers. You'll forget all about this in a month.

Except these Washingtonias are Sabals.

[rick]

This extreme cut is illegal in Palm Beach and Broward Counties. The PB County Code very clearly states

Palm Pruning Requirements

1. No more than one-third of fronds shall be removed.

2. No pruning above the horizon line, except for dead or diseased fronds

The club almost certainly had a commercial company butcher these palms so they should know better. Perhaps you should bring this to the attention of the club owners and/or county code enforcement.

[MKIVRYAN]

Gotta love people telling you how to trim your trees.

[rick]

Gotta love people telling you how to trim your trees.

In this case it is necessary. Landscapers in this area have people believing these "hurricane cuts" are needed so that there are fewer leaves to get caught in the wind of a hurricane thus protecting the palm and surrounding buildings. In fact this has the exact opposite effect. Butchering palms like this, limits the palm's ability to produce energy. To compensate for the lost canopy, the palm quickly puts a lot of its energy into producing new leaves. The palm then "needs" to be pruned again. Its a great win/win scheme for the landscaper since he has created a problem that perpetually "needs" to be fixed. If this cycle is done repeatedly the palm will start to pencil point. When a hurricane does come through, that restriction is the perfect spot to rip the palm's crown off, killing the palm and creating a giant projectile to do even more damage. The leaves and retained leaf bases on a sabal actually act as a buffer against hurricane force winds protecting the growing point.

Many of the landscapers around here either don't know or don't care. All they do is take a chainsaw up there zip it around the top and move on to the next one. For them this kind of pruning is an fast way to make more money from a job. Then when this does end up killing the palm they will be more than happy to remove that dead trunk and install a new palm to start the cycle over again.

[Gonzer]

I agree it looks bad but it is simple why this is done. The land owners want to go as long as possible between trimmings to save money. I do the same thing when I get my hair cut. As short as possible so I can go as long as possible before I go back.

Exactly, the cost per unit (one tree) can add up. Besides, it's not like Washingtonias are slow growers. You'll forget all about this in a month.

Except these Washingtonias are Sabals.

My bad for not realizing they're Florida pics. Taken for granted since we see this day after day out here in SoCal. What's the growth rate of Sabals?

[Jeff Searle]

Really your one option is....is to report it to code enforcement at the city. See if the tree trimming company went to far and could possibly be fined.

[Panamajack]

Wow that's just awful. Same thing happened a few years back I went to this office building in Marina del Rey (coastal L.A) and they had a large group of very nice and healthy Queen palms. I remember thinking "these are nice". Next day I had to go again to the same building and they had ALL been MUTILATED. They were all left with two fronds ONLY! I was like WTF happened here?? They were destroyed in one day! I even spoke to the manager of the building and went off about the idiots who did this. He didn't seem to care. What a moron.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Panamajack

[redbeard917]

I used to see this from time to time when I was in Panama City. More often, they do a similar cut but leave about 4 fronds instead of just the spear. Inevitably, they cut the green leaves very close, but don't bother cleaning up the old boots. That was the case in your photo, as well (at least on the two palms on the right). It makes it an even less appealing look, to my eyes--no crown and ragged, unkempt older boots.

[chayote]

In HK, it shows similar case, you look at those foxtail, they didn't have enough space to grow in Nathan Road
Also the phoenix canariensis in HK disneyland are in poor health

Edited August 8, 2015 by chayote

[kwtimo]

I've seen this done with coconuts in a few RV parks down here in the Keys. It makes the Yankees feel safer. It makes me want to hurl.

[Matthew92]

This is what I hate most. Here along the FL Panhandle, it is true to say that Sabals are THE go-to palm to install in any business that wants to perpetuate the "Florida image." The problem is, the Sabal is realistically the ONLY palm of good size and stature that does well in such mass, not very well cared for, plantings in commercial or housing areas. It has gotten to the point that on a certain level I am sick to my stomach of them- Sabals Sabals Sabals Sabals Sabals eveywhere, especially near the beaches. I like to think of them as a cheap equivalent to coconuts in Honolulu. The thing is though, coconuts are such stunners and classic tropical trees, the mass plantings of them in Hawaii don't seem to get as old. And now for the straw to break the camel's back: unlike coconut palms in Hawaii (from what I could see when I visited there), Sabals are way overtrimmed. It makes me sick to my stomach. I have to admit, the cabbage palm's real look is not like a queen, coconut, or king palm with nice clean leaves that arch up and away like an idealistic palm tree. Being a rugged native, cabbage palms look good in landscaping with grasses or more native plants- it really is not the classic "palm tree" that many would imagine seeing. I think people forget what a Sabal palm is supposed to look like. In fact, (I can't find it right now) there was an article I saw of some small college campus in FL where Sabals were being way overpruned like the above picture. There was outrage in the community about it thankfully, but the owner of the place literally was like, "I think it looks good, and it keeps the palms from being dangerous to people with fronds falling." REALLY!!?? a Sabal palm's fronds being dangerous!!?? they more likely float to the ground than fall down. That is so messed up. From situations like this, I am really worried people are forgetting what a Sabal palm is supposed to look like. In fact there are homeowners in neighborhoods who over-trim their Sabals, and apparently they don't mind even though it is in their own yard looking at it everyday vs. a commercial planting. I think a full headed Sabal palm looks awesome! Especially with the knowledge that this is how they are supposed to look. In fact, I have created a collage of pictures of good examples of Sabal palms that are not over-trimmed from Google streetview. And back the coconuts, I think the reason it all looks better in Hawaii is because a slightly overtimmed coco looks a little better than an even slightly overtrimmed sabal- and also, I think people just know and appreciate the coco's natural form much better over there! So, when given a chance to be left alone, I hope everyone can come to appreciate the sabal (or cabbage) palm's natural form. Below is a perfect example.

Also check out this handout.

[Matthew92]

Also, in my post "Zone 8b Woes" I talked about a planting of dactylifera's in my hometown that look awesome. Installed in 2013, they endured the following winters 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 respectively with multiple freezes into the low 20's, a 17 degree freeze, ice storm with 20 degrees, and 18 degrees the second winter with a recoverable portion of fronds remaining. They were recovering very well especially for new transplants and flowered and fruited vigorously since then even while the fronds are still growing back. This picture was taken this past May. You can see they were recovering just fine with a significant portion of the crown to still replace- great. However, about a month or two later- drove by to find them completely butchered with only several frond remaining pointing almost straight up in the air- despicable. Now they did remove the inflorescence, and I guess that could help redirect growth to the leaves, but still.... Despite this terrible setback, I think they will survive, and a month later they seem fine, but I think the only thing that will carry them through is that dates are very tough palms. However, I hope we don't have another very hard winter, cause there is not enough time to regain it's crown before then, and if it's as bad as 2014, they could be lost with such a sparse canopy.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Opal92

[Brad Mondel]

Opal92, and Rick, you guys took the words out of my mouth. Very well done explanation. Absolutely correct.

Edited August 8, 2015 by ArchAngeL01

[SouthSeaNate]

I noticed some similarly over-pruned Phoenix canariensis in Sliema, Malta the other day, to make matters worse these were pruned by the local council & RPW is rife here There are not many CIDP's left here as it is

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Here in Corpus Christi and some areas of the Rio Grande Valley in South Texas, tree trimmers butcher the palms, especially the Washingtonias and they do it at the two worst times of the year: in May heading into hurricane season and in late fall heading into winter. Palms ALWAYS look best and are healthier with a full crown of leaves, so anyone who says palms look good trimmed and especially scalped is certifiably nuts! Also, going into hurricane season, palms need their full crown of leaves to disperse the winds of a hurricane. When the palms are butchered with only a few leaves left, it weakens the upper part of the trunk making it more likely that high hurricane winds could snap off the crown and then you actually do have a dangerous upper trunk and leaves heading down to the ground as opposed to just some older leaves blowing off in the winds, plus as you all know, the palm dies without its crown. Also, going into winter, the palms need their full crown of leaves to insulate the bud in case there is a hard freeze with drying cold high winds.

[Matthew92]

Another terrible one. The "small" looking Canary in the back was actually one of the biggest ones in the area. I had watched it develop a full sized trunk over the last several years. Below you can see how big it had gotten before 2014.

May 2015

Although I will say their canopies were sparse right before this as there were freezes around 20 degrees in early 2015, here's what they looked like shortly before the over-pruning in March 2015:

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2016‎ ‎5‎:‎19‎:‎38‎, Opal92 said:

Another terrible one. The "small" looking Canary in the back was actually one of the biggest ones in the area. I had watched it develop a full sized trunk over the last several years. Below you can see how big it had gotten before 2014.

May 2015

Although I will say their canopies were sparse right before this as there were freezes around 20 degrees in early 2015, here's what they looked like shortly before the over-pruning in March 2015:

What could you expect from an idiot Big Box Store corporation?  The same thing is done by idiot stupid business interests around here.  The beautiful mature Washingtonias and Phoenix dactyliferas in front of the mall were butchered a few months back and looked horrible.  What stupidity from an area wanting to increase tourism.  They should have a new Convention and Visitor's Bureau ad saying, "Come to Corpus Christi and see our beautiful BIG OIL REFINERIES, and as you drive down the freeway towards the beach, look at our beautiful BUTCHERED PALM TREES!"

[rprimbs]

There is a lot of ignorance in pruning.  I think that they feel that they are giving the customer their money's worth, and there is also the notion that they are "rejuvinating" the plant -- because of all of the new growth that sometimes occurs as the plant struggles to stay alive..

I'm a little horrified by the way landscaping trees are pruned in California.  There is no understanding that everytime you cut off a branch you get dead wood extending into the plant until the wound heals over (You can paint the wound to try and prevent or limit this).  So large trees are pruned in the manner you would prune a small landscaping shrub.  All of the branches are cutback to the same length with no thought given to the location along the branch.  Not only does it look bad but the center of each large branch dies and the only live wood is on the outside -- where the tree frantically puts out new branches.  Of course these branches are not connected to much live wood and they can break off easily.  The correct way to prune is to "drop crotch" -- prune back to a strong branch.

The structure of the tree seems to be ignored.  Low angle branches can get bark growing into the crotch so there is less wood connecting the branch to the tree.  And the branches need to be spaced evenly around the tree without crossing branches.  Also dead branches need to be removed all the way at the tree trunk.  People weirdly leave "stubs" all over the tree, perhaps ignorant that the new bark to cover the end of the stub will be produced at the base of the stub.  Ultimately you get a completely dead rotten stub sticking out of the side of the tree -- and a dead rotten spot extending deep into the tree trunk.

It seems that the only people who know this are certified arborists -- and they get out bid by people who don't...

At least we can do it right ourselves.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

10 hours ago, rprimbs said:

There is a lot of ignorance in pruning.  I think that they feel that they are giving the customer their money's worth, and there is also the notion that they are "rejuvinating" the plant -- because of all of the new growth that sometimes occurs as the plant struggles to stay alive..

I'm a little horrified by the way landscaping trees are pruned in California.  There is no understanding that everytime you cut off a branch you get dead wood extending into the plant until the wound heals over (You can paint the wound to try and prevent or limit this).  So large trees are pruned in the manner you would prune a small landscaping shrub.  All of the branches are cutback to the same length with no thought given to the location along the branch.  Not only does it look bad but the center of each large branch dies and the only live wood is on the outside -- where the tree frantically puts out new branches.  Of course these branches are not connected to much live wood and they can break off easily.  The correct way to prune is to "drop crotch" -- prune back to a strong branch.

The structure of the tree seems to be ignored.  Low angle branches can get bark growing into the crotch so there is less wood connecting the branch to the tree.  And the branches need to be spaced evenly around the tree without crossing branches.  Also dead branches need to be removed all the way at the tree trunk.  People weirdly leave "stubs" all over the tree, perhaps ignorant that the new bark to cover the end of the stub will be produced at the base of the stub.  Ultimately you get a completely dead rotten stub sticking out of the side of the tree -- and a dead rotten spot extending deep into the tree trunk.

It seems that the only people who know this are certified arborists -- and they get out bid by people who don't...

At least we can do it right ourselves.

Richard,

I think you are giving WAY TOO MUCH credit to the "tree trimmers" and "landscapers".  Maybe in California they halfway care, but are just terribly ignorant, but over here in Texas with the cocky arrogant and very stupid Redneck mentality, most owners, managers, and workers in this industry couldn't care less.  The owners and managers are just in it to make a quick buck off some unsuspecting victim, and the workers are mostly low skilled Mexican laborers, and some felons just paroled from prison.  The concepts of truly caring for the best interests of the plants, and real customer service for the clientele, doesn't even factor into the picture at all.  Almost all the honest good quality landscaping companies that truly cared about the health and well being of the plants, real customer service, and who took care of their employees by paying a living wage and caring about employee morale and turnover, have been TOTALLY been put out of business years ago.  It is a highly competitive business, and unfortunately the scum have risen to the top.  The owners and managers are absolute greedy underhanded scheisters that cheat their customers all day every day and treat their employees like trash working them to death for very low wages, and don't even get me started on safety.  If a worker gets hurt, it's the worker's fault, NEVER management's fault for telling the worker to do something that is very unsafe to begin with.  A prime example of this is, a landscaping company I used to work for on Padre Island would send the crew I was on out to BUTCHER the palms on VERY high wind days, requiring the trimmer to climb a tall ladder leaned up against the trunk of the palms and use a chain saw to cut the leaves off!  This kind of very dangerous crap is typical over here.  Anyone who goes to work for one of these landscapers (like me) who has an education and knows what they are doing is crapped on from the get go!  The owners and managers don't want anyone with an education (B.S. Degree in Agriculture in my case) who has real horticultural and landscaping experience working for them.  In the case of the company I mentioned above, one day on a project, the homeowners started talking to me, and quickly found out I knew what I was doing and gave me and another employee each a $20 tip.  The owner saw this and saw that the clients liked talking to me more than him, and he got very upset at this and made life miserable for me until I felt compelled to quit.  He truly was like almost all of the owners and managers over here, a cocky arrogant and very ignorant SOB, who is well connected, which is the ONLY way he stays in business..(It's not what you know, it's who you know!)

I have tried going to work for myself, but you just can't make it over here if you are honest and know what you are doing.  This is for three reasons.  First, the customers unfortunately are very ignorant themselves and ALWAYS fall victim to the smooth talking scum that have a fancy ad in the phone book or a fancy nice looking website.  (They go for the all show and no substance landscapers, time after time.)  The second reason is everyone over here wants everything dirt cheap and they want it done yesterday.  They refuse to pay a quality price for quality work, and quality takes time.  They have no patience.  The third reason an honest educated landscaper can't make it at all over here is that the scum owners/managers of the other companies will bad mouth the good guys to make the potential customers not even consider us.  It's so frustrating, and I actually have a passion for healthy organic quality landscaping, but just can't make it no matter how hard I try!

John 

[Walt]

A local shopping center hurricane cut all the sabal palms many years ago that lined the store fronts. I wrote a letter to the Ed (local newspaper) criticizing the practice -- citing all the reasons the University of Florida states (reduced photosynthesis due to such canopy loss, stress on palm that can cause constrictions in trunk, not to mention the less than aesthetically pleasing look). I dared somebody write me a rebuttal (nobody did). I even think I posted about it (with photo) at this forum. It's academic now as the shopping center had all of he sabals removed a few years ago.

[rprimbs]

Unfortunately it is much the same here. In the trades people told me the boss wanted "production" over quality (I worked as a carpenter and later as an electrician).  However my neighbor had some trees pruned and it was absolutely obvious that the guys who did it were certified arborists -- no comparison to the average pruning work done around here. It motivates me to do some pruning of my own.

[Walt]

Most hurricane cutting is done to save maintenance costs, not as a result of the trimmer not knowing what he's doing. The owner of the palms directs the trimmer to scalp the palms so that he can go twice as long before having to pay to have them trimmed again.

[rprimbs]

48 minutes ago, Walt said:

Most hurricane cutting is done to save maintenance costs, not as a result of the trimmer not knowing what he's doing. The owner of the palms directs the trimmer to scalp the palms so that he can go twice as long before having to pay to have them trimmed again.

And if you criticize then they remove the palms altogether.  

At least as homeowners we don't have to follow their example.  But it is easy to see why many people don't like palm trees and don't think that they are very attractive plants.

[Silas_Sancona]

John, Walt, Richard, very good points and.. while i can only speak for what i see locally, John's thoughts about the quality of many of the companies in the industry who should know better, rings very true for more than less of the Landscapers here. Many don't even know their plants. That Really infuriates me.

Another thing, Back in San Jose, if trees ( of any type) were wrapped up in any of the Electrical/Telephone lines, PG&E.. or whomever they'd contract the work to, would come out and trim back the trees. Here, forget it.. We'd called several times reporting arching in the power lines behind the house during a good storm numerous times only to be told not to worry about it/ wasn't a big deal. During the storm that brought the Tornado to Siesta Key, the arching in the same power lines we had that night set the top of a neighbor's tree on fire. Despite the "skeleton" that remains, branches are still hung up in the lines and most of those trees along the property line are Brazilian Pepper, which should have been removed a long time ago.

[Matthew92]

1 hour ago, rprimbs said:

And if you criticize then they remove the palms altogether.  

At least as homeowners we don't have to follow their example.  But it is easy to see why many people don't like palm trees and don't think that they are very attractive plants.

Yes, sabals especially look terrible over-trimmed. Almost defeats the purpose to prune them in the first place.

[rprimbs]

49 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

John, Walt, Richard, very good points and.. while i can only speak for what i see locally, John's thoughts about the quality of many of the companies in the industry who should know better, rings very true for more than less of the Landscapers here. Many don't even know their plants. That Really infuriates me.

Another thing, Back in San Jose, if trees ( of any type) were wrapped up in any of the Electrical/Telephone lines, PG&E.. or whomever they'd contract the work to, would come out and trim back the trees. Here, forget it.. We'd called several times reporting arching in the power lines behind the house during a good storm numerous times only to be told not to worry about it/ wasn't a big deal. During the storm that brought the Tornado to Siesta Key, the arching in the same power lines we had that night set the top of a neighbor's tree on fire. Despite the "skeleton" that remains, branches are still hung up in the lines and most of those trees along the property line are Brazilian Pepper, which should have been removed a long time ago.

I have some oaks near the road that I need to prune for that reason.  I'm actually a little scared to do it.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

4 hours ago, Walt said:

A local shopping center hurricane cut all the sabal palms many years ago that lined the store fronts. I wrote a letter to the Ed (local newspaper) criticizing the practice -- citing all the reasons the University of Florida states (reduced photosynthesis due to such canopy loss, stress on palm that can cause constrictions in trunk, not to mention the less than aesthetically pleasing look). I dared somebody write me a rebuttal (nobody did). I even think I posted about it (with photo) at this forum. It's academic now as the shopping center had all of he sabals removed a few years ago.

Hey Walt,

That figures!  You try to save the palms and get them back to a decent look and they go and remove them!

John