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Mediterranean List of Palms

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Peter Pacific

What a great post! I want to start one for the southern coast of Guatemala and listen to your suggestions too!

I think as collectors we should push zones and test our limits. Global climate change seems to have become a norm and what grew, or what did not grow, fifty years ago may have changed, especially in coastal regions. Try every palm that is on your list, document your findings and share with the rest of the world of palm enthusiasts. What a fascinating endeavor!

Good Luck,

Peter

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Cikas

To our american with similar climate buddies... we have 11a zones in Europe. Located in the southernmost part of Spain, ¿maybe a Little part of the southernmost part of Algarve is 11a too? and in Malta.

Lampedusa maybe has 11a too, and I don't know Cyprus because Cyprus hasn't got very much climate data, or at least in latin alphabet. :laugh2: I've only seen info of Nicosia which is 10b.

Cyprus maybe can have small zones with 11a climate but I won't say anything because I really don't know what to say. But Malta and the majority of "Costa Tropical" from Spain, is 11a. Costa tropical is this: (obviously 11a are found in locations not very far from the coast and in zones with not very much altitude) :

costa-tropical-granada.jpg

Almeria also is the unique place in continental Europe without recorded temperatures below the freezing mark in the history. Malta also hasn't got any temperature ever registered below the freezing mark; and Cyprus I don't know if it has zones or not, but from what I can get from the internet Nicosia experienced frozens, and Limassol experienced very very light frozens, (-0.0ºC). Maybe our Cypriot buddies can answer us this thing!

That part of the Spain has semi-arid climate not mediterranean.

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Cikas

@ Tenerife

Paphos region in Cyprus must be the winter mildest region of Cyprus and north of it to Peyia. There are a lot of bananafields for commercial cultivation. This must have a reason. Beside the Canary Islands and Madeira I do not know other european regions. No one would do this in regions with slight and occasionally frost during the winter period.

Furthermore and for instance in Paphos region you can see a lot of Frangipani and some Carica papaya, Limefruit an so on without special treatment. If you study the topographic map of CY you can see how protect the Paphos-region is, also good for rain for mostly westerly winds.

Nicosia is not as winter mild as the southern CY costal areas. In the past, I did some comparisons in this forum regarding the climate in Cyprus (Paphos, Limassol) and San Diego and Malaga. Very very similar.

In some few spots exists banana plantations for commercial purposes too, but mainly local. (they grow other fruits like avocado or mango which give a lot more money). Well, if I tell you the truth I've seen even local bananas in the south coast of Valencia for sell. But obviously all of those plantations are local intended, not at large scale. Avocado is a lot more productive tan banana, and the people with soil prefers to plant avocados or the traditional fruit in Valencia, which is the sweet sweet form of the oranges (this race of oranges losses all of his fruits if they are exposed a few hours hours even to -0ºC); -2ºC for example would kill the fruits in 1-2 hours. This never happened in the coast but it happened some years ago a bit in the interior of Valencia at about 200m altitude and with -2ºC they loss all their fruits from the plantations for that year.

The medium/big trees didn't suffered very much, but the fruit remained useless. That happened about ~20km at interior and at about 200m +/- depeding the zone. I've seen even this race of oranges planted at about 250m altitude, but it all depends of microclimates. Normal oranges/tangerines are seen in Valencia even near to 50km at interior far from the coastline and near to 500m, because they enjoy a mild microclimate zone in the Valencia city area. The north coast of Alicante for example only can grow oranges 10-15km inland, because it's all very arid and in most winters a lot of places located not very far from the sea get light frozens.

Also papayas grow good in the named "Tropical Coast". When I was there I was very very surprised, the vegetation on the streets makes you feel that you are in Madeira. A lot of roystoneas are planted on public, and I don't know any other place in Europe with that large amount of roystoneas. Papayas only grow in very specific places and very near to the coastline:

papayas-www.jpg

Also, they grow for commercial purposes avocado (well, avocado grows from all the Spanish coast from Castellón to Cádiz) but there also exists "chirimoya" (I don't know the translation) and mango. From what I know, this is the unique place in all Europe with mango plantations for commercial purposes. Mangos are produced in large scale, in their season when they are good for collect, you can find them in a lot of Spanish supermarkets, even in Aldi or LIDL I've seen a lot of times mangos from "La Costa Tropical"; they also export them to Europe, but most of them remain in Spain because of the big demand of mangos inside Spain.

Well, I've said that from what I know this is the unique place in all Europe growing in large scale without protection. (not considering Madeira or Canaries) but if you know another place tell me! It would be great to know it :)

1316030100_0.jpg

cultivo-mango-malaga--644x362.jpg

40202147.jpg

Imagen-mangos--575x323.jpg

Thank you for your reply buddy! Kind regards :)

PS: SORRY FOR ALL THE EDITIONS! BUT I CORRECT SPELLING MISTAKES !

Sweet Oranges can grow in majority of of the Mediterranean.

In Dalmatia we have commercial plantations of sweet oranges and other citrus species. They are not that sensitive.

Avocado also can grow in majority of of the Mediterranean.

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Tenerife

Sweet Oranges can grow in majority of of the Mediterranean.

In Dalmatia we have commercial plantations of sweet oranges and other citrus species. They are not that sensitive.

Avocado also can grow in majority of of the Mediterranean.

I think you misunderstood me buddy. Not sweet tasting oranges, it's a kind of genetic orange race from Valencia. They are a genetic race and it was created in Valencia: https://www.google.es/search?q=salustiana&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=l24oVeniAYnxUvWZhMAI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979 it only grows in Valencia and in Morocco. Those ones from Morocco have a worst taste/quality because of their climate; you can check all of this here using Google Translate. (I repeat again that i'm talking specifically about this race of oranges)

I'm not referring to the orange with sweet flavour itself, it's a race of oranges. Which are the less cold tolerant oranges; it's like a variation of Valencia's salustiana. In local shops the kilo costs about 1.50€... they sell them for 2-3€/kg across Spain... think that you can buy sweet oranges 2kg in a supermarket for 1.50€, and this specific race of oranges cost 1.50€ 1kg. They are the most sensitive to cold and they are the most expensive.

They only grow in +10b zones :greenthumb:(this specific race of oranges)

But that doesn't care haha!. This thread is about palm trees, not fruital trees hehe. :laugh2:

Those are photos of March 2014 from a few public gardens from Málaga, Almuñécar and Torremolinos. All are zones from the named "Tropical Coast": (They appear to be gardens from Sydney, Durban or Florida or something... very beautiful) I don't know the name of all of those palm trees, but I see roystonea, differents kinds of dypsis, syagrus, bismarckia, that strange palm tree that appears to be a big banana plant... etc :laugh2:

er0k2b.jpg

34intc4.jpg

May 2012: (That enourmous Howea is very lookalike to a coconut!)

2hmmuxt.jpg

February 2014: (In less than 2 years those roystoneas grown up a lot!)

ekrj3d.jpg

b80pli.jpg

Edited by Tenerife

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Cikas

What is the name of that specific orange cultivar?

All Citrus sinensis cultivars can be grown in Dalmatia and other parts of mediterranean. Also fruit is always more cold hardy than foliage. ( because of the high concentration of sugar ).

Edited by Cikas

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Tenerife

What is the name of that orange cultivar?

Valencia Salustiana :greenthumb:

(I will profit this post to reply to the thread too):

Here is a mini collection of photos of different kinds of tropical/subtropical palms in Málaga: http://www.panoramio.com/user/4457942?comment_page=1&photo_page=20

In addition to the palms at post #1, I will mentione another species planted (and growing good) in "Costa Tropical" of Spain. Many of the palms from below appear in photos at the link from above.

- Roystonea Regia

- Roystonea Oleracea

- Roystonea Borinquena

- Rhopalostylis Sapida

- Ptychosperma Elegans

- Pritchardia Munroi

- Bismarckia Nobilis

- Howea Forsteriana

- Livinstonia Benthamii

- Livinstonia Rigida

- Acoelorraphe Wrightii

- Archontophoenix Alexandrae

- Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana

- Syagrus Schizophylla

- Syagrus Romanzoffiana

- Syagrus Sancona (I doubt on this one, I still can't distinguish them at 100%)

- Hyophorbe Verschafeltii

- Gaussia Maya

- Dypsis Decaryi

- Dypsis Lutescens

- Dypsis Madagascariensis

- Caryota Urens

- Caryota Obtusa

- Ravenea Rivularis

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Tenerife

Real Meditteranean is much more hoter in summer during the nights than California. Also summers are generally hoter in real Meditteranean than in Meditteranean parts of California.

Also real Meditteranean is more humid during the winter than Meditteranean parts of California. Our falls and springs are also humid.

Humidity in winter + coolish weather can be much more dangerus than temperatures below freezing ( crown rot ).

Dypsis species have problem with our winter humidity and Hot summers ( days and nights are HOT ).

This is not like that buddy, real mediterranean is the same as real California's mediterranean climate, or even colder. But never more hotter. California is very influenced by the desert, which is very close to the coastline. Real Californian Mediterranean is not San Diego or San Francisco. Those are Mediterranean with very very much Pacific Ocean influences. Real Californian Mediterranean is like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles#Climate 29.1/17.8 for the city downtown, 35.6/14.2 for Canoga Park, located at a hill.

I see that you like citrus, so I will put another example. Fresno, the heart of citrus cultivations in California:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresno,_California#Climate 37/20 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate Sacramento 34.1/16.1

California's Mediterranean climate zones are quite hotter than in the Mediterranean. Only a few locations in the Mediterranean can" compete" with this summer hot. For example Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba are some examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicosia#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Andalusia#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville#Climate

Rome for example has 30.6/18.3, Ajaccio 28.7/17.6 and Palma 29.8/22.5. A lot of places with Mediterranean climate in California get 34-35ºC as average in July and August.

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nick

@Tenerife

nice pictures, in spain they take mor care about palms and do more really nice landscaping than in Cyprus. Regarding the climate, Seville and Nicosia are similar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicosia#Climate and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville#Climate

But Nicosia is more semi arid with more sunshine. Here are some further comparisons Idid.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27766-is-this-climate-suitable-for-cocos-nucifera/page-2#entry467980 and

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27766-is-this-climate-suitable-for-cocos-nucifera/page-2#entry468250 and

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27766-is-this-climate-suitable-for-cocos-nucifera/page-2#entry468797

The same in California with costal areas vs. hot inland basin (e.g. Fresno)

But in total, we are talking about mediterranean climate and list of plams.

The climate within the mediterranean differs vey much between the northern and southern part, so it it not easy to create a general list this and that grows or not. E.g. the adreatic area or Rome cannot compete with southern spanish palm landscaping and also cannot compete our Cyprus frost free costal areas. E.g. where in Rome or Croatia can be found plumeria or Delonix Regia or papaya, they are widespread here in coastal areas of Cyprus but not typical for med. climate. Same with palms.

So unfortunately and in my opinion a general mediterranean list would make little sence.

Edited by nick

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Stelios

In the Mediterranean climate there are differences between place to place. Different zones. I can only speak about my place because I live here and I know about the winter lows and summer heat. Even here in Cyprus there are different climates. Nicosia is very hot without high humidity in the summer and cold in the winter. Paphos like Nick said has more mild winters and summers are rarely over 35C but with high humidity all year round. The places I've been was mostly during summer time but I believe that we have similar climate with southern greek islands like Crete and Rhodes, Malta and southern Spain especially Malaga. By the way Tenerife welcome to PT. We've been to Malaga a few times and is one of our favorite places in Europe. The climate is very similar with Paphos. The botanical garden La Concepcion in Malaga is really amazing.

Each place has also different influences from the different regions. Israel for example has also Mediterranean climate but I think that they have more warm winters than here in Paphos. I think Malta has warmer winters too. South California has warmer winters than many places with Mediterranean climate and different influences or humudity. Rainfall also plays a big role in growing palms. South African and South Australian mediterranean climates might be different too. So everything must be taken in consideration.

I used to live a few miles from here in the hills of Tala. The altitude was about 1700ft. There is frost and some snow almost every winter there. We had a neighbor who is growing 3 spindle palms almost 10 years now. Every winter they get badly burned and in the summer they grow a couple of new fronts. Down near the coast line where we live now is a different climate. Spinles are growing without any problems. Still Bottle and Spindle palms or ever Royals are under planted because people don't know a lot about palms. I agree with Peter. We have to push zones to test the limits. Up to some point of course depending where you live.

The photo is from La Concepcion, Malaga. They have the most beautiful Kentias.

Stelios

post-9419-0-60519500-1428732245_thumb.jp

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Tenerife

@Tenerife

nice pictures, in spain they take mor care about palms and do more really nice landscaping than in Cyprus. Regarding the climate, Seville and Nicosia are similar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicosia#Climate and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville#Climate

But Nicosia is more semi arid with more sunshine. Here are some further comparisons Idid.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27766-is-this-climate-suitable-for-cocos-nucifera/page-2#entry467980 and

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27766-is-this-climate-suitable-for-cocos-nucifera/page-2#entry468250 and

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27766-is-this-climate-suitable-for-cocos-nucifera/page-2#entry468797

The same in California with costal areas vs. hot inland basin (e.g. Fresno)

But in total, we are talking about mediterranean climate and list of plams.

The climate within the mediterranean differs vey much between the northern and southern part, so it it not easy to create a general list this and that grows or not. E.g. the adreatic area or Rome cannot compete with southern spanish palm landscaping and also cannot compete our Cyprus frost free costal areas. E.g. where in Rome or Croatia can be found plumeria or Delonix Regia or papaya, they are widespread here in coastal areas of Cyprus but not typical for med. climate. Same with palms.

So unfortunately and in my opinion a general mediterranean list would make little sence.

Ah yes my friend of course! They're very similar. That's why I've said before that only a few places can "compete" with that California's summer hot. Nicosia of course is one of them, and Seville or Cordoba are another examples.

Écija (near Sevilla) is also a good oven. In Écija exists a local proverb which is "in the summer, you can break an egg into the town's square and it will be fried in some minutes" because every year they have some days with temps. of 40ºC or more and the mean maximum for Écija is slightly higher tan Seville, being the average about 37/20 for Écija during July and August. Cyprus and the south coast of Spain are the hottest places in all the Mediterranean during the summer talking about maximums. Israel also is hot as hell but I don't consider Israel Europe. They also "play an advantage" because they are at more south latitude and they have the desert on their back, receiving hot air masses which improve their maximum temperatures. It happens like in SoCal. But in the hottest zone of Spain or Cyprus, we don't have that "advantage" and we play neutral haha!

I don't know why it's so hot in those places because the Atlantic Ocean it's very close to Seville... Murcia is another example of hot in Spain, their average maximum temperature in July is 35ºC. Almería is the unique hot desert in Europe and the temperatures are very very mild, it's highly influenced by the sea. But the interior of Almería... it's a total oven during the summer, where is located the real Tabernas Desert. But this is so much hot, this is almost insupportable. Everyday at 12-AM (at night) those places have 30ºC... how can you sleep without air conditioning on full? I sweat in Tenerife every summer day because we have 29 to 32º and the minimums always are 21 to 24º, at 12AM the temperature is always about 26-27ºC and the ambient is very hot. It's stinky. I don't want to imagine the same in Seville or Nicosia, which is a lot hotter. :bemused:

In the Mediterranean climate there are differences between place to place. Different zones. I can only speak about my place because I live here and I know about the winter lows and summer heat. Even here in Cyprus there are different climates. Nicosia is very hot without high humidity in the summer and cold in the winter. Paphos like Nick said has more mild winters and summers are rarely over 35C but with high humidity all year round. The places I've been was mostly during summer time but I believe that we have similar climate with southern greek islands like Crete and Rhodes, Malta and southern Spain especially Malaga. By the way Tenerife welcome to PT. We've been to Malaga a few times and is one of our favorite places in Europe. The climate is very similar with Paphos. The botanical garden La Concepcion in Malaga is really amazing.

Each place has also different influences from the different regions. Israel for example has also Mediterranean climate but I think that they have more warm winters than here in Paphos. I think Malta has warmer winters too. South California has warmer winters than many places with Mediterranean climate and different influences or humudity. Rainfall also plays a big role in growing palms. South African and South Australian mediterranean climates might be different too. So everything must be taken in consideration.

I used to live a few miles from here in the hills of Tala. The altitude was about 1700ft. There is frost and some snow almost every winter there. We had a neighbor who is growing 3 spindle palms almost 10 years now. Every winter they get badly burned and in the summer they grow a couple of new fronts. Down near the coast line where we live now is a different climate. Spinles are growing without any problems. Still Bottle and Spindle palms or ever Royals are under planted because people don't know a lot about palms. I agree with Peter. We have to push zones to test the limits. Up to some point of course depending where you live.

The photo is from La Concepcion, Malaga. They have the most beautiful Kentias.

Stelios

I'm very impressed of Málaga, really really beautiful. Of course one of the palm paradises in Europe is Málaga! It enjoys a very tropical touch; for example this is Málaga in a Street View photo of January 2014:

2mow2zs.jpg

Only a few places in Europe look like this during winters... I'm really impressed and I'm from the Canaries! Really if someone told me that's Madeira or somewhere in La Palma island for example... I would believe him.

I love howeas too! My favourite palm in Málaga is a Howea. It looks totally like the Howeas planted on the parks of Lima, Perú. In Málaga are planted hundreds of Howeas, but I've never seen one as big as this one from below;

Look at those 2 howeas; they're enormous! The 2 photos on the left side belong to the same Howea, and the other photo on the right side belongs to the other huge Howea.

a088yw.jpg

Also I've found more photos of roystoneas in Málaga zone! Specifically Torremolinos city. (Also I can see a very big species of Dypsis in the back)

DSC05341.JPG

DSC05334.JPG

Those ones in La Concepción garden. They have 32 in a row in both sides of the road. They also have one centenary specimen, but that one I don't know where it is, because in this row isn't it haha! All of this can be read here.

Roy_WW.jpg

In Valencia-Alicante (similar climate) for example i've only seen a couple of roystoneas and they by far aren't as those ones. Maybe it's because they are young, but by far they don't grow as fast as in "Costa Tropical" the ones from the post #44 grown up like champions in less than 2 years. Those ones from Valencia-Alicante lookalike jokes compared to them. This are one of the most impressive "excentric" palm trees I've found in Valencia. "Excentric" because 98% are Phoenixes, Washingtonias and Syagrus in that order. (But those Archontophoenixes appear to be really enjoying the climate)

2wdvw1t.jpg

Edited by Tenerife

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Tenerife

From those Howeas in Málaga:

a088yw.jpg

How many meters both could have ¿? I can't take in a picture the one of the left which is the biggest, but it's bigger than that Phoenix. Maybe it has about 12-13 meters? The other one from the right appears to be about 9-10 meters.

Edited by Tenerife

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Cikas

Real Meditteranean is much more hoter in summer during the nights than California. Also summers are generally hoter in real Meditteranean than in Meditteranean parts of California.

Also real Meditteranean is more humid during the winter than Meditteranean parts of California. Our falls and springs are also humid.

Humidity in winter + coolish weather can be much more dangerus than temperatures below freezing ( crown rot ).

Dypsis species have problem with our winter humidity and Hot summers ( days and nights are HOT ).

This is not like that buddy, real mediterranean is the same as real California's mediterranean climate, or even colder. But never more hotter. California is very influenced by the desert, which is very close to the coastline. Real Californian Mediterranean is not San Diego or San Francisco. Those are Mediterranean with very very much Pacific Ocean influences. Real Californian Mediterranean is like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles#Climate 29.1/17.8 for the city downtown, 35.6/14.2 for Canoga Park, located at a hill.

I see that you like citrus, so I will put another example. Fresno, the heart of citrus cultivations in California:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresno,_California#Climate 37/20 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate Sacramento 34.1/16.1

California's Mediterranean climate zones are quite hotter than in the Mediterranean. Only a few locations in the Mediterranean can" compete" with this summer hot. For example Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba are some examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicosia#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Andalusia#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville#Climate

Rome for example has 30.6/18.3, Ajaccio 28.7/17.6 and Palma 29.8/22.5. A lot of places with Mediterranean climate in California get 34-35ºC as average in July and August.

Not really true. I'am speaking primary about summer, night temperatures. Summer lows. In California summer lows are much lower than in real mediterranean.

Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba do not have Mediterranean climate. Large portions of Spain have semi-arid climate, not Mediterranean. Semi-arid and mediterranean are two different climates.

And we are speaking here about palms for Mediterranean climate in real Mediterranean basin.

Semi-arid climate in the world.

Koppen_World_Map_BSh_BSk.png

Los Angeles ( look at summer average lows )

Screen_Shot001.png

Screen_Shot002.png

Now Europe

Athens ( again look at average summer lows )

Screen_Shot003.png

Cyprus

Screen_Shot005.png

Dubrovnik

Screen_Shot007.png

Also Los Angeles is only one part of California, not whole California. Same goes for these cities in real Mediterranean basin.

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas

Also percipitations are very, very important for palms. Different parts of Mediterranean basin have different amount of percipitations.

Mediterranean basin is alot more humid on average than California. 5-10 days in the row of almost constant rain during winter is common in Mediterranean basin, but very very rare in California.

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CYPALMS

This topic has surpised me pleasantly. While i have been collecting scattered info here and there for some time, this is becoming a really nice collection of comments and experiences. By watching how this discussion has evolved, perhaps the topic should be renamed South Coast Mediterranean Basin List of Palms and still it wouldnt be accurate. But the whole point is to share opinions and help each other in our quest for a better palm world.

I have few comments in general. Firtsly, it should be universally acceptable that it is impossible to divide regions accurately and draw lines where a palm can/cannot grow. One has to take into consideration many other factors in deciding that. To name a few, coastal exposure, elevated terrain influence, proximity to lakes or big concentrations of water in general, cool air canals, exposure to south east hot dry winds, or northwest chilly winds and most importantly actual data from weather stations to a place near your location.

Greece is a mediterranean country of course but you cannot expect to grow many palms in north greece except from the hardiest ones. Same goes with italy and same almost about every country. Yes Cyprus, Malta and Sicely may be exceptions but even for Cyprus which some of you have included in the Tropical Mediterranean, i have excluded a large portion of the country occupied by the mountainous terrain of Troodos and its surroundings. When building up a list of palms to possibly grow in a certain place you have to have knowledge of the actual location and how it is influenced by many factors. Low precipitation can be substituded by a different irrigation programme. High winds can be tackled with tree fencing, high humidity in cool winters can be treated with preemptive treatments for crown rot, hell summer days can be dealed with an increase in the water provided as well as the frequency of it and so on.

I have been talking with nurseries in my area and when i would ask the question "why only these palms?" i was receiving the same answer. "We dont have the possibility to spend money to introduce new species, and we have tried a few of these and they failed..". General answers of course with no data to back it up. Just a consensus "we cant sustain anything here except for Washies, Pygmies, Canaries, Syagrus, Archontophoenix and few others". Much like few of the comments in this topic. Big question: Is it really true? Let me make a simple question. Where in the mediterranean you think Dypsis decipiens could grow without any problems? I am using this species as an example as it is quite nice in appearance, quite easy to handle, no special needs and yet you will find it almost nowhere in the mediterranean countries.

I know that by putting up the list again will only cause confusion, but what i will do is build the list for the coastal Cyprus area and post it in another topic with remarks on where it is applicable. I wouldn't want to argue about locations that i lack knowledge thereof, so i will leave that to each one to decode for himself.

For the record i am trying (albeit in seedling stage) here in Cyprus the following: A. purpurea, Licuala ramsayi, Bentinckia condapanna, B. alfredii, Chambeyronias, Kentiopsis oli and pyri, Dypsis leptocheilos, Tribears, Clinostigma savoryanum and few Dypsis (onil, decipiens, ambo). Will let u know some time in the future how these are doing.

Feel free to add anything else you consider important for this topic. It can only make it better.

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Phoenikakias

Giorgos, alone the fact that you mention as chilly, palm prohibiting example, the northwest wind, justifies completely your reservation for a uniform intereuropean approach of this topic. In my place (central-south EASTERN Greece, the most serious, and destructive threat for palms during winter is the northEASTERN wind coming directly from Sibiria, without beeing blocked by the Caucasus mountain, which affects more eastern locations. About the Dypsis especially, other spss die of cold and other of heat! The ones that die of cold like leptocheilos and decaryi I can suppose that will be reliable in Cyprus. The others however that die of heat such as decipiens and onilahensis may prove finicky there. I think that Cyprus, despite being an island, it faces the high middle east temps during summer, though not sure. If it is so however, those Dypsis from high altitudes will not be easy to grow.

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Tyrone

Very interesting topic and thread, but admittedly I haven't read every single post thoroughly, because I don't have time.

I thought I'd add Hyophorbe indica. If you can grow vershafeltia you can grow indica. Also Pinanga javana has grown well for me down here, which has totally spun me out. Pinanga coronata has too with a little bit of extra protection. I've since seen pics of flowering P javana in NZ which made me very happy.

Climate threads always interest me, but climate classifications are just fraught with "inaccuracies" because a classification attempts to do an almost impossible task despite all the massive number of variables that exist in any region.

Mediteranean climates can also be "dry subtropical" climates, but not always. Mediteranean climates are basically dry summer, wet winter climates. Naturally, summer humidity is lower and winter humidity is higher.

My climate is classified as "Mediteranean" due to it being a winter rainfall pattern, BUT, compared to the real Mediteranean region, I have cooler moist summer nights, and warmer winters. It's also wetter than the real Mediteranean here with more uniform year round humidity. Summer days vary wildly here within about 10km of the coast. Go to the coast and the summer days are more like San Diego, but come inland 10kms to where I am and the summer days are like the real Mediteranean around Athens, but with cool nights. My winter days are like LA, but with about double the rainfall and cooler nights on average. Due to proximity to the coast, with year round cloud activity (we do get blue skies, but clouds are never far away) we are a Mediteranean climate that tries to become "Oceanic" at times. But due to the winter peak in rainfall we are classified as Mediteranean despite the fact that our climate doesn't follow anywhere in the real Mediteranean. It's probably more like the moister parts of Atlantic Spain.

But the real saving thing for us climate benders is the microclimate. This is how we can grow things that people even in your own street can't grow. With a microclimate modification you can grow things you technically can't according to the climate classification people.

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Stelios

George

Unfortunately we still don't have any garden nurseries with more varieties to see what options we could have here in coastal Cyprus. That's why only through this forum I'm trying to collect as much information as possible to try my own experiments by looking at other peoples experience in a very similar climate. When I'll find a specific palm which I like and grows in similar climate like mine I will give it a try at my own risk. Only like this I think I will know for sure. Of course there so many other factors but like you said some of these things can be fixed, like extra watering, protection from wind or sun, soil etc. For example I have seen only very few full sun grown Kentias here in Paphos but in the summer they get some leaf sunburn. I would like for the better look to have the Kentias grown in partial sun at least when they are younger, since I know here as easy to grow outside. Maybe with the years some palms could tolerate more the different elements.

I'm glad that there are some people like you here in Cyprus and I hope more and more palm addicts will grow more varieties and tell us their experience. Your palm collection is amazing and I hope all these and even more will grow successfully. I can't wait for future updates.

Stelios

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Tenerife

Not really true. I'am speaking primary about summer, night temperatures. Summer lows. In California summer lows are much lower than in real mediterranean.

Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba do not have Mediterranean climate. Large portions of Spain have semi-arid climate, not Mediterranean. Semi-arid and mediterranean are two different climates.

And we are speaking here about palms for Mediterranean climate in real Mediterranean basin.

Not really true¿? Yes it is my friend. That map is very far from accuracy, but if you look well, Seville is even not included in the map. But I'll explain you why that map is very wrong. Almost all of those zones are Med. climate!

Yes, I was talking about summers too. Look again at my link if you didn't before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate

Yes of course summer lows are lower than ours, but as you see highs during summers in real mediterranean climate of California, are higher that in most parts of the Mediterranean. Los Angeles or San Diego, like I said before, are highly influenced by the Pacific Ocean. Lisboa also has a mediterranean climate but highly influenced by the Atlantic Ocean so that's why has a very mild climate. But well we are talking about Europe :greenthumb:

Sevilla do not has a Mediterranean climate ? :floor: Please look again at that map. Besides that map is not accurate by far (Most places of that map in Spain are real CSa climates but well... whatever) Sevilla even didn't appear in that map. There is no climate chart in the world saying that Sevilla has other climate which is not Mediterranean. Sorry but that map for me is a complete joke. It can't be another thing.

Look: (Sevilla)

314t4ir.jpg

Córdoba also is 100% mediterranean climate, but with continental influences due to the remoteness of the sea. It's not at very much altitude (120m) but it's very far from the sea:

11bu5ie.jpg

This is why I take that map as I joke like I said before. Look at the climate of Valencia: (Valencia is one of the best examples of pure Mediterranean climate with very mild and very pleasant winters)

2trh2.jpg

(I'm not saying all this to you, you didn't made it so it's not your fault. But man... none meteorologist EVER said or stated that the climate of Valencia isn't mediterranean... lol) it's subtropical by 100%. In this case Mediterranean subtropical, but a lot of meteorologists consider it as subtropical alone, like you can read above. I've never heard in my life that Valencia has a semi-arid climate which is not Mediterranean.

And I am a very big fan of meteorology. my friend. Look at the Wikipedia article, is totally complete with trustworthy references. The meteorologists say that that's a pure mediterranean/subtropical Csa climate.

But in a part you are right too. There exist some zones with that kind of climate, but they are mainly at the interior and they always are considered as continental-mediterranean climate.

If you don't believe me I will prove this to you to check it by yourself! Look for example at this. This is at the interior of Valencia. According to that map, this belongs to a semi-arid zone: :laugh2:

2nib7ls.jpg

But this one for example really belongs to that climate zone. This is Elche: (look at the mountains to see how they are) And according to that map, they belong to the same climate!

34f0a4o.jpg

Now compare that to the other landscape of the interior of Valencia... The same climate ¿? Yes of course! (irony) the guy who made that map was a funny guy... hehe.

Now. Can we please stop arguing ?? I've shown you to what zones belong those climates. We don't have to argue about climates. Let's talk about how palm trees grow in those climates. ¿Ok? Kind regards! :greenthumb:

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Tenerife

I just realized one thing from that photo from above !!!

2nib7ls.jpg

Look at the bottom they're palmettos! (Chamaerops Humilis)

According to Google, this location is somewhere between 700-750m altitude. Chamaerops Humilis naturally growing at ~750mw and about 80km far from the sea !!! How is this possible?

The last time I've been around that zone, I've seen Chamaerops Humilis growing at about 600m altitude, but it was 20-25km near the sea! I've never seen palmettos growing naturally at this high altitude and so far from the sea. :greenthumb:

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empireo22

Not really true. I'am speaking primary about summer, night temperatures. Summer lows. In California summer lows are much lower than in real mediterranean.

Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba do not have Mediterranean climate. Large portions of Spain have semi-arid climate, not Mediterranean. Semi-arid and mediterranean are two different climates.

And we are speaking here about palms for Mediterranean climate in real Mediterranean basin.

Not really true¿? Yes it is my friend. That map is very far from accuracy, but if you look well, Seville is even not included in the map. But I'll explain you why that map is very wrong. Almost all of those zones are Med. climate!

Yes, I was talking about summers too. Look again at my link if you didn't before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate

Yes of course summer lows are lower than ours, but as you see highs during summers in real mediterranean climate of California, are higher that in most parts of the Mediterranean. Los Angeles or San Diego, like I said before, are highly influenced by the Pacific Ocean. Lisboa also has a mediterranean climate but highly influenced by the Atlantic Ocean so that's why has a very mild climate. But well we are talking about Europe :greenthumb:

Sevilla do not has a Mediterranean climate ? :floor: Please look again at that map. Besides that map is not accurate by far (Most places of that map in Spain are real CSa climates but well... whatever) Sevilla even didn't appear in that map. There is no climate chart in the world saying that Sevilla has other climate which is not Mediterranean. Sorry but that map for me is a complete joke. It can't be another thing.

Look: (Sevilla)

314t4ir.jpg

Córdoba also is 100% mediterranean climate, but with continental influences due to the remoteness of the sea. It's not at very much altitude (120m) but it's very far from the sea:

11bu5ie.jpg

This is why I take that map as I joke like I said before. Look at the climate of Valencia: (Valencia is one of the best examples of pure Mediterranean climate with very mild and very pleasant winters)

2trh2.jpg

(I'm not saying all this to you, you didn't made it so it's not your fault. But man... none meteorologist EVER said or stated that the climate of Valencia isn't mediterranean... lol) it's subtropical by 100%. In this case Mediterranean subtropical, but a lot of meteorologists consider it as subtropical alone, like you can read above. I've never heard in my life that Valencia has a semi-arid climate which is not Mediterranean.

And I am a very big fan of meteorology. my friend. Look at the Wikipedia article, is totally complete with trustworthy references. The meteorologists say that that's a pure mediterranean/subtropical Csa climate.

But in a part you are right too. There exist some zones with that kind of climate, but they are mainly at the interior and they always are considered as continental-mediterranean climate.

If you don't believe me I will prove this to you to check it by yourself! Look for example at this. This is at the interior of Valencia. According to that map, this belongs to a semi-arid zone: :laugh2:

2nib7ls.jpg

But this one for example really belongs to that climate zone. This is Elche: (look at the mountains to see how they are) And according to that map, they belong to the same climate!

34f0a4o.jpg

Now compare that to the other landscape of the interior of Valencia... The same climate ¿? Yes of course! (irony) the guy who made that map was a funny guy... hehe.

Now. Can we please stop arguing ?? I've shown you to what zones belong those climates. We don't have to argue about climates. Let's talk about how palm trees grow in those climates. ¿Ok? Kind regards! :greenthumb:

pRoeZa* is that you?

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Tenerife

Not really true. I'am speaking primary about summer, night temperatures. Summer lows. In California summer lows are much lower than in real mediterranean.

Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba do not have Mediterranean climate. Large portions of Spain have semi-arid climate, not Mediterranean. Semi-arid and mediterranean are two different climates.

And we are speaking here about palms for Mediterranean climate in real Mediterranean basin.

Not really true¿? Yes it is my friend. That map is very far from accuracy, but if you look well, Seville is even not included in the map. But I'll explain you why that map is very wrong. Almost all of those zones are Med. climate!

Yes, I was talking about summers too. Look again at my link if you didn't before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate

Yes of course summer lows are lower than ours, but as you see highs during summers in real mediterranean climate of California, are higher that in most parts of the Mediterranean. Los Angeles or San Diego, like I said before, are highly influenced by the Pacific Ocean. Lisboa also has a mediterranean climate but highly influenced by the Atlantic Ocean so that's why has a very mild climate. But well we are talking about Europe :greenthumb:

Sevilla do not has a Mediterranean climate ? :floor: Please look again at that map. Besides that map is not accurate by far (Most places of that map in Spain are real CSa climates but well... whatever) Sevilla even didn't appear in that map. There is no climate chart in the world saying that Sevilla has other climate which is not Mediterranean. Sorry but that map for me is a complete joke. It can't be another thing.

Look: (Sevilla)

314t4ir.jpg

Córdoba also is 100% mediterranean climate, but with continental influences due to the remoteness of the sea. It's not at very much altitude (120m) but it's very far from the sea:

11bu5ie.jpg

This is why I take that map as I joke like I said before. Look at the climate of Valencia: (Valencia is one of the best examples of pure Mediterranean climate with very mild and very pleasant winters)

2trh2.jpg

(I'm not saying all this to you, you didn't made it so it's not your fault. But man... none meteorologist EVER said or stated that the climate of Valencia isn't mediterranean... lol) it's subtropical by 100%. In this case Mediterranean subtropical, but a lot of meteorologists consider it as subtropical alone, like you can read above. I've never heard in my life that Valencia has a semi-arid climate which is not Mediterranean.

And I am a very big fan of meteorology. my friend. Look at the Wikipedia article, is totally complete with trustworthy references. The meteorologists say that that's a pure mediterranean/subtropical Csa climate.

But in a part you are right too. There exist some zones with that kind of climate, but they are mainly at the interior and they always are considered as continental-mediterranean climate.

If you don't believe me I will prove this to you to check it by yourself! Look for example at this. This is at the interior of Valencia. According to that map, this belongs to a semi-arid zone: :laugh2:

2nib7ls.jpg

But this one for example really belongs to that climate zone. This is Elche: (look at the mountains to see how they are) And according to that map, they belong to the same climate!

34f0a4o.jpg

Now compare that to the other landscape of the interior of Valencia... The same climate ¿? Yes of course! (irony) the guy who made that map was a funny guy... hehe.

Now. Can we please stop arguing ?? I've shown you to what zones belong those climates. We don't have to argue about climates. Let's talk about how palm trees grow in those climates. ¿Ok? Kind regards! :greenthumb:

pRoeZa* is that you?

Who is Proeza? I don't know him but i've used his photos. That's true.

But also I use photos from other Spanish users of this forum, like I've used the ones of Granca in the post with the Canarian coconuts ;)

Also I've use a lot of times Google Translate :laugh2: and I'm sure a lot of Spanish users do this.

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Phoenikakias

Not really true. I'am speaking primary about summer, night temperatures. Summer lows. In California summer lows are much lower than in real mediterranean.

Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba do not have Mediterranean climate. Large portions of Spain have semi-arid climate, not Mediterranean. Semi-arid and mediterranean are two different climates.

And we are speaking here about palms for Mediterranean climate in real Mediterranean basin.

Not really true¿? Yes it is my friend. That map is very far from accuracy, but if you look well, Seville is even not included in the map. But I'll explain you why that map is very wrong. Almost all of those zones are Med. climate!

Yes, I was talking about summers too. Look again at my link if you didn't before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate

Yes of course summer lows are lower than ours, but as you see highs during summers in real mediterranean climate of California, are higher that in most parts of the Mediterranean. Los Angeles or San Diego, like I said before, are highly influenced by the Pacific Ocean. Lisboa also has a mediterranean climate but highly influenced by the Atlantic Ocean so that's why has a very mild climate. But well we are talking about Europe :greenthumb:

Sevilla do not has a Mediterranean climate ? :floor: Please look again at that map. Besides that map is not accurate by far (Most places of that map in Spain are real CSa climates but well... whatever) Sevilla even didn't appear in that map. There is no climate chart in the world saying that Sevilla has other climate which is not Mediterranean. Sorry but that map for me is a complete joke. It can't be another thing.

Look: (Sevilla)

314t4ir.jpg

Córdoba also is 100% mediterranean climate, but with continental influences due to the remoteness of the sea. It's not at very much altitude (120m) but it's very far from the sea:

11bu5ie.jpg

This is why I take that map as I joke like I said before. Look at the climate of Valencia: (Valencia is one of the best examples of pure Mediterranean climate with very mild and very pleasant winters)

2trh2.jpg

(I'm not saying all this to you, you didn't made it so it's not your fault. But man... none meteorologist EVER said or stated that the climate of Valencia isn't mediterranean... lol) it's subtropical by 100%. In this case Mediterranean subtropical, but a lot of meteorologists consider it as subtropical alone, like you can read above. I've never heard in my life that Valencia has a semi-arid climate which is not Mediterranean.

And I am a very big fan of meteorology. my friend. Look at the Wikipedia article, is totally complete with trustworthy references. The meteorologists say that that's a pure mediterranean/subtropical Csa climate.

But in a part you are right too. There exist some zones with that kind of climate, but they are mainly at the interior and they always are considered as continental-mediterranean climate.

If you don't believe me I will prove this to you to check it by yourself! Look for example at this. This is at the interior of Valencia. According to that map, this belongs to a semi-arid zone: :laugh2:

2nib7ls.jpg

But this one for example really belongs to that climate zone. This is Elche: (look at the mountains to see how they are) And according to that map, they belong to the same climate!

34f0a4o.jpg

Now compare that to the other landscape of the interior of Valencia... The same climate ¿? Yes of course! (irony) the guy who made that map was a funny guy... hehe.

Now. Can we please stop arguing ?? I've shown you to what zones belong those climates. We don't have to argue about climates. Let's talk about how palm trees grow in those climates. ¿Ok? Kind regards! :greenthumb:

pRoeZa* is that you

I think it is more than obvious! :mrlooney:

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Tenerife

Do the royal palms (Roystonea) produce already fruits there? 'Chirimoya' is the Anona fruit. It is produced also in the island of Kos for the local market only and the fruits are commonly called Kaimak, a turkish word for milk cream.

Sorry I don't answered to this. Yes they produce fruits in the south coast of Spain; in Motril, Almuñécar, Málaga, Fuengirola etc... by looking with Google Maps you can see the fruits in most of them! (if they were in their season, like in Málaga)

pRoeZa* is that you

I think it is more than obvious! :mrlooney:

I think you 2 are very funny guys. I really enjoy this forum. I am discovering a lot about palm trees and also I'm meeting very funny guys :greenthumb::winkie:

I've read the posts of Proeza. Yes, I use his photos and what happens? I registered in this forum on 28 March and I use references/photos which I've seen written by Granca, Proeza, Carlo Morici and Monover.

Also we can use stuff of another users, specially if they are compatriots :) I am also seeing that this guy "Proeza" had some discussions about with "Cikas" and what happens? We can't talk? hehe. All of what i've been saying is true; if not tell me what is not true. Sevilla or Valencia doesn't have a CSa climate? Elche is not arid? The interior of Valencia is not green? Roystoneas and howeas don't grow like champs in Málaga? What is not true?? :crying:

And also I've said before that we can stop arguing. We don't have to make discussions about which climate is or is not. Can we just go back to the thread and talk about palm trees in Europe? :interesting:

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richnorm

Any Attaleas in Europe? I have only tried dubia which looks very promising. Leaves are now well over 4m and not even close to trunking!

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Janni

Hi Everybody,

I´ve been watching this thread for a while now. In the beginning I was just interested to know about your experiences on palms in the mediterranean. But then it turned to a wild discussion about what climate you have and what is more mediterranean than the other and which is better and so on. Why is it always that we end up in arguing about the mediterranean climate?

I do not want to get involved in this discussion, but I will just add this: in science we try to pack "things"/samples/situations into groups. We put those "things"/samples/situations with the biggest similarities into one group, so we can distinguish them from other groups. This is just a simplification, otherwise we would end up with endless samples, not being able to compare them with other groups and not being able to draw any kind of conclusions. This applies also to climatology. Hence, it is completely wrong to think that just because a certain region is considered "mediterranean", it is absolutely comparable to any other "mediterranean" region. It is just more similar, than to a region, which belongs to a different climate.

Btw, in the very first post of this thread CYPALMS made a very clear assumption on what to consider as "mediterranean", and that of course there is some deviation on parts of the med.

To come to an end :interesting: , I really wished to read about your experiences on palms, which are not common to the mediterranean and see some pictures of your nice gardens! :greenthumb:

Best wishes,

Janni

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Tenerife

Hi Everybody,

I´ve been watching this thread for a while now. In the beginning I was just interested to know about your experiences on palms in the mediterranean. But then it turned to a wild discussion about what climate you have and what is more mediterranean than the other and which is better and so on. Why is it always that we end up in arguing about the mediterranean climate?

I do not want to get involved in this discussion, but I will just add this: in science we try to pack "things"/samples/situations into groups. We put those "things"/samples/situations with the biggest similarities into one group, so we can distinguish them from other groups. This is just a simplification, otherwise we would end up with endless samples, not being able to compare them with other groups and not being able to draw any kind of conclusions. This applies also to climatology. Hence, it is completely wrong to think that just because a certain region is considered "mediterranean", it is absolutely comparable to any other "mediterranean" region. It is just more similar, than to a region, which belongs to a different climate.

Btw, in the very first post of this thread CYPALMS made a very clear assumption on what to consider as "mediterranean", and that of course there is some deviation on parts of the med.

To come to an end :interesting: , I really wished to read about your experiences on palms, which are not common to the mediterranean and see some pictures of your nice gardens! :greenthumb:

Best wishes,

Janni

Totally agree. There are people in this forum thinking that they have the best climates and they don't want to hear the expression of another person. In my case for example, if you say something that is true, and I was doing a mistake and you correct me, I'll appreciate you that you have done this. I will not try to continue arguing with you about which climate is. For God's sake this is not the WEATHER/CLIMATE subforum. So please let's talk about palm trees like our friend @Janni says.

I can't put any photos of my garden because I live in a flat and also I live outside continental Europe :laugh2: but for example above you can see some photos of Málaga and Valencia of palm trees which aren't very common.

Anyone from Cyprus can tell how Roystoneas do it there? And anyone from Malta? I've seen that one user called SouthSeaNate is from Malta and has a very beautiful Howea in his avatar. That palm is from Malta? Malta has very similar climate to the southernmost coast of Spain and I think that they will grow about the same! Huge roystoneas like those ones I've never seen in my life unless here, in the Canary Islands: (where I've been travelling I mean)

b80pli.jpg

er0k2b.jpg

Also those dypsis are huge. I am sure that this is possible in Europe at least in Malta too. (Greeks and Cypriots please talk!) All the users from Europe please come to this thread and talk about your experiences! You're all welcome. I will reply to anyone with very much pleasure and I will try to participate here as much as I can and with very much pleasure. But I will not reply again to anyone making a climate argue. Actually it exists a specific subforum for that. Kind regards!! :greenthumb:

Archontophoenixes in Valencia look like champs. Also howeas enrol very good. But I've never seen any big roystonea in Valencia. The only ones that i've seen are skinny, and very ugly compared to the archontophoenixes or howeas existing in Valencia zone too. Those are howeas from Elche:

blank.gif

12395638654_0fd6c68c7d_b.jpg

blank.gif

2en9uzs.jpg

Someone thinks i'm another user because I speak a lot of Valencia. That's because I live in the Canary Islands but I lived a lot of time in Valencia and I visit Valencia about every month because my family lives there!! (flights through Spain are very cheap :P and because I am a citizen of the Canary Islands, every flight it costs me half as normal :happy: ) normally I pass all summers/festivities in the Valencian Community too.

Any Attaleas in Europe? I have only tried dubia which looks very promising. Leaves are now well over 4m and not even close to trunking!

I've never heard this. Also, I've never heard of Attaleas even in my place, here in Tenerife. Maybe I've seen a couple, but when they are small they are so similar to Ravenea Rivularis that I don't know what to say.

I've seen for example hundreds of coconuts but attaleas never. It would be great to know if someone has one in his/her garden! It's a very beautiful palm.

Edited by Tenerife

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Tenerife

I've made another very big discover!! http://www.spacegarden.eu/blog/category/space-garden-blog/ this time in Benidorm. I've been in Benidorm and most palm trees are phoenixes, washingtonias and syagrus. Really hard to see another palm tree which aren't those ones. Banana trees are planted in a lot of hotels and gardens from buildings. But the banana tree can be considered as a palm tree?

Hoteles con Encanto, hotel barcelo Asia Gardens Benidorm – Alicante. Podemos observar diferentes variedades de palmaceas Phoenix roebelenii, Syagrus romanzoffiana, Howea forsteriana (Kentia), Arecas, Cycas Revoluta y Chamaerops Humilis. Tambien hay Strelitzia Augusta, Strelitzia Reginae Originarias de Africa

20150413093957_28.jpg

hoteles_con_encanto10.jpg

Look at the dypsis. That's what i've said before. Similar climate to Málaga but skinnier and worse aspect. I think that the few centigrades which enjoys more Málaga during winters, are the point. And also Málaga doesn't get very extreme temperatures. Benidorm and his surroundings are totally arid, and during summers you can find some days with more than 40ºC (104ºF) which in Málaga is almost impossible.

Also, in Málaga the frozens occur one time or twice in a century. In Benidorm are very rare, but I can say that in a decade at least one very light frozen happens. Maybe this is an important point too?

hoteles_con_encanto13.jpg

hoteles_con_encanto14.jpg

1317051833_extras_albumes_0.jpg

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Phoenikakias

Hi Everybody,

I´ve been watching this thread for a while now. In the beginning I was just interested to know about your experiences on palms in the mediterranean. But then it turned to a wild discussion about what climate you have and what is more mediterranean than the other and which is better and so on. Why is it always that we end up in arguing about the mediterranean climate?

I do not want to get involved in this discussion, but I will just add this: in science we try to pack "things"/samples/situations into groups. We put those "things"/samples/situations with the biggest similarities into one group, so we can distinguish them from other groups. This is just a simplification, otherwise we would end up with endless samples, not being able to compare them with other groups and not being able to draw any kind of conclusions. This applies also to climatology. Hence, it is completely wrong to think that just because a certain region is considered "mediterranean", it is absolutely comparable to any other "mediterranean" region. It is just more similar, than to a region, which belongs to a different climate.

Btw, in the very first post of this thread CYPALMS made a very clear assumption on what to consider as "mediterranean", and that of course there is some deviation on parts of the med.

To come to an end :interesting: , I really wished to read about your experiences on palms, which are not common to the mediterranean and see some pictures of your nice gardens! :greenthumb:

Best wishes,

Janni

Where have you seen a wild discussion or dispute? Facts that had been mentioned were not put in any doubt by anyone! Even the definition of Mediterranean that Farkonis made in his initial post is not complete. -2 C for a couple hours with even lower dew point and a rapid temperature rise to above 15 C afterwards, makes a HELL OF A DIFFERENCE from -2 for couple of hours but also with snow storm and temps struggling to stay above 0 C for the rest hours of the same day and maybe the next one! Take my words for granted!

Edited by Phoenikakias

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Cikas

Not really true. I'am speaking primary about summer, night temperatures. Summer lows. In California summer lows are much lower than in real mediterranean.

Nicosia, Seville or Córdoba do not have Mediterranean climate. Large portions of Spain have semi-arid climate, not Mediterranean. Semi-arid and mediterranean are two different climates.

And we are speaking here about palms for Mediterranean climate in real Mediterranean basin.

Not really true¿? Yes it is my friend. That map is very far from accuracy, but if you look well, Seville is even not included in the map. But I'll explain you why that map is very wrong. Almost all of those zones are Med. climate!

Yes, I was talking about summers too. Look again at my link if you didn't before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate

Yes of course summer lows are lower than ours, but as you see highs during summers in real mediterranean climate of California, are higher that in most parts of the Mediterranean. Los Angeles or San Diego, like I said before, are highly influenced by the Pacific Ocean. Lisboa also has a mediterranean climate but highly influenced by the Atlantic Ocean so that's why has a very mild climate. But well we are talking about Europe :greenthumb:

Sevilla do not has a Mediterranean climate ? :floor: Please look again at that map. Besides that map is not accurate by far (Most places of that map in Spain are real CSa climates but well... whatever) Sevilla even didn't appear in that map. There is no climate chart in the world saying that Sevilla has other climate which is not Mediterranean. Sorry but that map for me is a complete joke. It can't be another thing.

Look: (Sevilla)

314t4ir.jpg

Córdoba also is 100% mediterranean climate, but with continental influences due to the remoteness of the sea. It's not at very much altitude (120m) but it's very far from the sea:

11bu5ie.jpg

This is why I take that map as I joke like I said before. Look at the climate of Valencia: (Valencia is one of the best examples of pure Mediterranean climate with very mild and very pleasant winters)

2trh2.jpg

(I'm not saying all this to you, you didn't made it so it's not your fault. But man... none meteorologist EVER said or stated that the climate of Valencia isn't mediterranean... lol) it's subtropical by 100%. In this case Mediterranean subtropical, but a lot of meteorologists consider it as subtropical alone, like you can read above. I've never heard in my life that Valencia has a semi-arid climate which is not Mediterranean.

And I am a very big fan of meteorology. my friend. Look at the Wikipedia article, is totally complete with trustworthy references. The meteorologists say that that's a pure mediterranean/subtropical Csa climate.

But in a part you are right too. There exist some zones with that kind of climate, but they are mainly at the interior and they always are considered as continental-mediterranean climate.

If you don't believe me I will prove this to you to check it by yourself! Look for example at this. This is at the interior of Valencia. According to that map, this belongs to a semi-arid zone: :laugh2:

2nib7ls.jpg

But this one for example really belongs to that climate zone. This is Elche: (look at the mountains to see how they are) And according to that map, they belong to the same climate!

34f0a4o.jpg

Now compare that to the other landscape of the interior of Valencia... The same climate ¿? Yes of course! (irony) the guy who made that map was a funny guy... hehe.

Now. Can we please stop arguing ?? I've shown you to what zones belong those climates. We don't have to argue about climates. Let's talk about how palm trees grow in those climates. ¿Ok? Kind regards! :greenthumb:

pRoeZa* is that you?

My thought too

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Cikas

Not really true¿? Yes it is my friend. That map is very far from accuracy, but if you look well, Seville is even not included in the map. But I'll explain you why that map is very wrong. Almost all of those zones are Med. climate!

Yes, I was talking about summers too. Look again at my link if you didn't before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California#Climate

Yes of course summer lows are lower than ours, but as you see highs during summers in real mediterranean climate of California, are higher that in most parts of the Mediterranean. Los Angeles or San Diego, like I said before, are highly influenced by the Pacific Ocean. Lisboa also has a mediterranean climate but highly influenced by the Atlantic Ocean so that's why has a very mild climate. But well we are talking about Europe :greenthumb:

Sevilla do not has a Mediterranean climate ? :floor: Please look again at that map. Besides that map is not accurate by far (Most places of that map in Spain are real CSa climates but well... whatever) Sevilla even didn't appear in that map. There is no climate chart in the world saying that Sevilla has other climate which is not Mediterranean. Sorry but that map for me is a complete joke. It can't be another thing.

Now compare that to the other landscape of the interior of Valencia... The same climate ¿? Yes of course! (irony) the guy who made that map was a funny guy... hehe.

Now. Can we please stop arguing ?? I've shown you to what zones belong those climates. We don't have to argue about climates. Let's talk about how palm trees grow in those climates. ¿Ok? Kind regards! :greenthumb:

pRoeZa* semi-arid climate is also warm. What makes Semi-Arid climate really different are precipitation. Semi-arid climate has much lower amount of precipitation than mediterranean climate.

As for California and Europe, like I already said, I'm talking primary about the summer minimums. Mediterranean climate parts of the europe are much warmer in summer minimums. Very important factor.

Now look at summer daily means. Higer daily mean, means hoter climate.

Los Angeles ( look at summer daily means).

Screen_Shot001.png

Screen_Shot002.png

Now Europe

Athens ( again look at daily means )

Screen_Shot003.png

Cyprus

Screen_Shot005.png

Dubrovnik

Screen_Shot007.png

Once again Europe is hoter.

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas

Also Mediterranean climate is sub-tropical by definition. Mediterranean climate is dry-summer sub-tropical climate.


Under the Köppen climate classification, "dry-summer subtropical" climates (classified as Csa and Csb) are often referred to as "Mediterranean". Under the Köppen-Geiger system, "C" zones have an average temperature above 10 °C (50 °F) in their warmest months, and an average in the coldest between 18 to −3 °C (64 to 27 °F) (or, in some applications, between 20 to 0 °C (68 to 32 °F)). The second letter indicates the precipitation pattern: "s" represents dry summers: first, Köppen has defined a dry month as a month with less than one-third that of the wettest winter month, and with less than 30 mm of precipitation in a summer month. Some, however, use a 40 mm level.[2][3] The third letter indicates the degree of summer heat: "a" represents an average temperature in the warmest month above 22 °C (72 °F), with at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F); "b", an average temperature in the warmest month below 22 °C, and again with at least two months averaging above 10 °C.

Under this classification, dry-summer subtropical climates (Csa, Csb) usually occur on the western sides of continents. Csb zones include areas normally associated with Oceanic climates, not Mediterranean, such as much of the Pacific Northwest, much of southern Chile, parts of west-central Argentina, Portugal and Spain.[4] Additional highland areas in the subtropics also meet Cs requirements, though they, too, are not normally associated with Mediterranean climates, as do a number of oceanic islands such as Madeira, the Juan Fernández Islands, the western part of the Canary Islands and the eastern part of the Azores.

Under Trewartha's modified Köppen climate classification, the two major requirements for a Cs climate are revised. Under Trewartha's system, at least eight months must have average temperatures of at least 10 °C, and the average annual precipitation must not exceed 900 millimetres (35 in). Thus, under this system, many Csb zones (including the Pacific Northwest) become DO Oceanic. However Trewartha's 900mm threshold also disqualifies some locations generally considered to have a "classic" Mediterranean climate, notably Naples, which it classes as "humid subtropical" despite its hot, dry summers.

So basically. In much of mediterranean Europe, Dypsis have problem with our high summer heat, that last during the nights as well. And with our humid winters. Winters in europe are much more humid than these in California.

That is why California can grow some cool loving palms and some Dypsis species we can not, at least not equally successful.

Edited by Cikas
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Alicante

Almost all Iberian Peninsula has Mediterranean climate. All the Mediterranean coast has Mediterranean climate and the interior of Spain has Mediterranean climate with continental influences. Madrid for example:

24y48eg.jpg

Madrid is at 655m (2.149ft) altitude, it's very far from the sea, and it has a very similar climate to some cities located at the north of the Mediterranean. As well, the lowest temperature recorded in the city of Madrid was -7.4ºC. That's a hot mark considering we are talking about a city located in the heart of the Iberian Peninsula and at 655m. Madrid is at zone 9a and there are cities in Greece at the north of the Mediterranean coast which belong to 9a or even 8b/9a.

Tirana for example appears in all the maps belonging to the mediterranean climate. Someone say that the climate of Tirana is cfa because it receives quite high rain during summers and others say that is mediterranean climate; but Tirana receives a lot of rain annually and the summers are the driest season. The dry season and the temperatures meet the needings for med. climate. Tirana is at 110m altitude and it's quite close to the coastline. The average temperatures are:

9a8doi.jpg

It's only a bit warmer in the winters, and all the other stations are about the same. Only October is hotter in Tirana with a relevant difference. All the other months are about the same. This is the Mediterranean climate around the world:

Medclim.png

And specifically in Spain:

mapacli.jpg

In that map doesn't appear the kind of sub-genre of the climate. That map which says that is an arid climate, it's true, but it's mediterranean-arid climate. Like Málaga has mediterranean-subtropical climate. @Tenerife, @Cikas is right too. That map is correct; because the considered climate is mediterranean-arid. There are a lot of spots in Valencia (I live in Valencia) with very green landscapes, but those are spots. Generally talking the climate is mediterranean-arid.

The climate of Madrid can be perfectly considered as 100% mediterranean and not mediterranean-continental, (attention I say can be perfectly considered, that not means that is :innocent: ) because even of it's high altitude and remoteness from the sea, the temperatures are about the same to some cities at low altitude and near the coastline; having registered an absolute lowest higher than some places located at the coast... So it's semi-arid yes, but mediterranean semi-arid. From Alicante to Girona all the coast belongs to the CSa climate zone.

This was the coldest day of this year:

xoqwbm.jpg

-6 at the sea in the north coast of Greece. Seeing -6ºC in Madrid is very rare. Mediterranean climate is unique depending where it is! Most part of the Iberian Peninsula has 100% mediterranean climate, some zones of the interior too :greenthumb:

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

blah blah blah (Tenerife's post)

pRoeZa* semi-arid climate is also warm. What makes Semi-Arid climate really different are precipitation. Semi-arid climate has much lower amount of precipitation than mediterranean climate.

Why did you mentione me quoting another user? This is the first time I enter this thread :floor:

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Rafael

Another hijacked thread with this discussion?

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Cikas

Almost all Iberian Peninsula has Mediterranean climate. All the Mediterranean coast has Mediterranean climate and the interior of Spain has Mediterranean climate with continental influences. Madrid for example:

Madrid is at 655m (2.149ft) altitude, it's very far from the sea, and it has a very similar climate to some cities located at the north of the Mediterranean. As well, the lowest temperature recorded in the city of Madrid was -7.4ºC. That's a hot mark considering we are talking about a city located in the heart of the Iberian Peninsula and at 655m. Madrid is at zone 9a and there are cities in Greece at the north of the Mediterranean coast which belong to 9a or even 8b/9a.

Tirana for example appears in all the maps belonging to the mediterranean climate. Someone say that the climate of Tirana is cfa because it receives quite high rain during summers and others say that is mediterranean climate; but Tirana receives a lot of rain annually and the summers are the driest season. The dry season and the temperatures meet the needings for med. climate. Tirana is at 110m altitude and it's quite close to the coastline. The average temperatures are:

It's only a bit warmer in the winters, and all the other stations are about the same. Only October is hotter in Tirana with a relevant difference. All the other months are about the same. This is the Mediterranean climate around the world:

And specifically in Spain:

In that map doesn't appear the kind of sub-genre of the climate. That map which says that is an arid climate, it's true, but it's mediterranean-arid climate. Like Málaga has mediterranean-subtropical climate. @Tenerife, @Cikas is right too. That map is correct; because the considered climate is mediterranean-arid. There are a lot of spots in Valencia (I live in Valencia) with very green landscapes, but those are spots. Generally talking the climate is mediterranean-arid.

The climate of Madrid can be perfectly considered as 100% mediterranean and not mediterranean-continental, (attention I say can be perfectly considered, that not means that is :innocent: ) because even of it's high altitude and remoteness from the sea, the temperatures are about the same to some cities at low altitude and near the coastline; having registered an absolute lowest higher than some places located at the coast... So it's semi-arid yes, but mediterranean semi-arid. From Alicante to Girona all the coast belongs to the CSa climate zone.

This was the coldest day of this year:

xoqwbm.jpg

-6 at the sea in the north coast of Greece. Seeing -6ºC in Madrid is very rare. Mediterranean climate is unique depending where it is! Most part of the Iberian Peninsula has 100% mediterranean climate, some zones of the interior too :greenthumb:

pRoeZa* mediterranean-arid climate does not exist. Climate can only be semi-arid or mediterranean, not both.

Also like I already said mediterranean climate is by definition sub-tropical. So all parts of the world with mediterranean climate are subtropical. Type of sub-tropical climate with dry summers.

Temperatures below freezing are rare in the entire Mediterranean basin coast. And not all nights are equally cold in all parts at the same time. Everything depends from which direction cold breakthrough. There was many times when Spain and western Europe were colder than eastern Europe, and vice versa.

In that case on the photo, cold breakthrough came from the east.

Also USDA zones are not calculated by apsolute lowest temperature, but buy average of apsolute lowest temperatures in about 20-30 years period.

-6ºC apsolute minimum does not make that city USDA 9a if average is higher in 20-30 years time period.

Edited by Cikas

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Alicante

Temperatures below freezing are rare in the entire Mediterranean basin coast. And not all nights are equally cold in all parts at the same time. Everything depends from which direction cold breakthrough. There was many times when Spain and western Europe were colder than eastern Europe, and vice versa.

In that case on the photo, cold breakthrough came from the east.

Also USDA zones are not calculated by apsolute lowest temperature, but buy average of apsolute lowest temperatures in about 20-30 years period.

-6ºC apsolute minimum does not make that city USDA 9a if average is higher in 20-30 years time period.

When I've said that USDA zones are calculated by the absolute lowest temperature ¿? There are parts in the Mediterranean with 8b/9a climate. Yes of course, quite zones are 9a. Only few 8b/9a

Madrid is 9a for this reason. Because the lowest temperature is not the factor. By the lowest temperature Madrid would be 8b but it's 9a. Phoenixes, Washingtonias, Dracaenas, Parajubaeas, Braheas and Livinstonia Chinensis grow in Madrid very good. CIDP grows a lot in Madrid; is not very common in the streets but in private houses you can see thousands. Even at zones with about 750m altitude.

Temperatures below freezing are very common in the Mediterranean. From Girona to Montpellier the average low temperature during January slightly surpass 3ºC. In those zones, and I'm talking about exactly the coastline, it freezes even more than 30 days in a year. The north of Greece suffers of more severe cold spells, you are right; but also it freezes a considerable amount of days. Also it frozens from Rome to the north coast of Italy (in the East side) like for example in Rome, where frozens aren't rare. It depends on where we are talking. In a lot of parts frozens are a lot more common that you might think mate. :greenthumb:

Girona's airport registers by average 41 days of temps below the freezing mark... and Girona is very close to the Mediterranean sea: http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=0367&k=cat

Also I say mediterranean-arid because it's mediterranean with arid influences. Like @Tenerife has been saying, you can check it by yourself in his photos or searching where you want or in Google Maps. According to that map, both Elche and ¿Noguera? belong to the same "semi-arid" climate. According to it Valencia has a semi-arid climate; while all the meteo charts you can find say that Valencia has a pure CSa climate!

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

None climate map can be precise. But believe me (if you want i'll prove it to you) that this map is very wrong:

Koppen_World_Map_BSh_BSk.png

In Alicante province for example, you can go from totally 100m rain per year zones, which are totally desertic, not semi-arid, arid directly and looking totally like Nevada or the desert part of the Rif mountains; to a couple of trees-some trees in mountains (semi-arid) to the typical mediterranean forest and also to a very green landscape. It depends on the zone.

Like I said before I agree with you and @Tenerife is wrong. But that map is very wide as I said before and it's not precise. Wide talking is good, but a lot of those "BSk" zones are CSa.

Also Almería is considered BSh, not BSk. Because the mean annual temperature surpass 18ºC in all the area of the southern part of Almería. (Almería city itself has 19.2ºC as the mean/annual average temperature and less than 200mm of year. It meets all the specs of BSh climate). But the Tabernas desert not surpass 18ºC as annual average, the mean average in the desert is exactly 17.9ºC so it's BSk like says there.

I am seeing that the first time you've said @Cikas that Seville doesn't belong to the mediterranean climate zone. Seville appears as mediterranean climate in all official climate charts. In that above map Seville does not appear.

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Cikas

Temperatures below freezing are very common in the Mediterranean. From Girona to Montpellier the average low temperature during January slightly surpass 3ºC. In those zones, and I'm talking about exactly the coastline, it freezes even more than 30 days in a year. The north of Greece suffers of more severe cold spells, you are right; but also it freezes a considerable amount of days. Also it frozens from Rome to the north coast of Italy (in the East side) like for example in Rome, where frozens aren't rare. It depends on where we are talking. In a lot of parts frozens are a lot more common that you might think mate. :greenthumb:

Girona's airport registers by average 41 days of temps below the freezing mark... and Girona is very close to the Mediterranean sea: http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=0367&k=cat

Also I say mediterranean-arid because it's mediterranean with arid influences. Like @Tenerife has been saying, you can check it by yourself in his photos or searching where you want or in Google Maps. According to that map, both Elche and ¿Noguera? belong to the same "semi-arid" climate. According to it Valencia has a semi-arid climate; while all the meteo charts you can find say that Valencia has a pure CSa climate!

Any link to that data. I do not see anything about 41 days below freezing on average for that city, on that link.

Also Rome is located on the west side of Apennine Peninsula not east.

As for Madrid. That climate looks too cold for palms you mentioned. Also I do not see alot of palms in Madrid photos. Only palms I see are Trachycarpus.

Screen_Shot001.png

Screen_Shot002.png

Screen_Shot003.png

Edited by Cikas
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Phoenikakias

A friend of mine living in Madrid told me once a story about how once his wet hair got frozen while he was riding his bicycle! As for palms in Madrid there should be also CIDP's which however should get extensive leaf scorch during some winter.

Edited by Phoenikakias

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