Livistona carinensis in South Florida

[Mandrew968]

The genus Livistona doesn't seem to get the recognition it deserves for being a large and diverse group of palms. There are both large palms and small palms. Most hail from the land down under, but some of the most interesting(and also the most common) come from other continents besides Australia. I am a Livistona fan and have respect for the genus as a whole, but there are standouts in this wonderful genus. One such noteworthy example is Livistona carinensis.

Previously placed in it's own genus(Wissmania), this palm is now the sole member of Livistona from Africa. This palm is an outlier from Somalia, where it grows only near permanent sources of water; it is presumed this palm used to be much more widespread, but was cut off from the rest of the genus when the dark continent began to go through desertification on a vast scale--many species of palm were lost during this process and it is partly why Africa has very few species of palm tree, considering it's largely tropical climate and enormous size.

Livistona carinensis is a dioecious palm that grows to monsterous proportions--I have heard reports from reliable sources that the base of this palm can grow larger than a Volkswagen Beetle! Aside from its potential to achieve giant proportions, Livistona carinensis displays many colors that place it among some of the most vibrant of palm species the world has to offer. Add to that it's rarity in cultivation and endangered status, and we have an amazing palm that many people should pay attention to and respect!

I picked mine up a few years ago, back when I was first discovering this wonderful and often elusive genus of palms. I am glad I did as it has rewarded me with an ease of cultivation and a blast of colors. True black is often a color the palm growing world covets and this palm has that in spades(no pun intended)--combine that with silver leaves and canary yellow petioles and you see what I mean when I tell you this palm is at the top of the list, in the colorful category. If you live in South Florida, or anywhere where you have a substantial amount of heat and water(for a decent amount of the year), I would highly reccomend this palm--if you are lucky enough to find one...

[Mandrew968]

Here is a photo of mine, I previously posted on Palmtalk, under a different thread.

[Mandrew968]

These are pictures of the same palm as it looks today.

[Mandrew968]

Here is a photo of a larger individual, also in South Florida.

[Mandrew968]

This is an example of the colorful side of carinensis...

[Mandrew968]

In these two photos, I hope you can get an idea of the size of the base--keep in mind, this palm is not even close to reaching its potential.

[Phoenikakias]

I have to try it once in my garden.

[Mandrew968]

This is another palm from a different garden with male inflorescense in bloom--I am not sure, but there could be sexual dimorphism in this species... time will tell.

[Geoff]

Sadly these are pretty marginal palms here in southern California. I know of only a single larger trunking palm (doing well in Ralph Velez's menagerie with only normal city water and cram-packed with a dozen other palms within 1" or less)... a few struggling seedlings at the Huntington (some died already). Really picky plant and hates cool weather.

[DoomsDave]

Sadly these are pretty marginal palms here in southern California. I know of only a single larger trunking palm (doing well in Ralph Velez's menagerie with only normal city water and cram-packed with a dozen other palms within 1" or less)... a few struggling seedlings at the Huntington (some died already). Really picky plant and hates cool weather.

I'll bet our desert denizens will find them easy to grow . . .

[Phoenikakias]

There is a small one growing outdoors in coastal area near Rome, Italy. It does not look thriving, but it still survives winter after winter in naturally sandy soil. Air humidity is very high, so that combined with average lows it makes several Butia spss rot readily!!!!! (so the report of the garden owner).

[gyuseppe]

There is a small one growing outdoors in coastal area near Rome, Italy. It does not look thriving, but it still survives winter after winter in naturally sandy soil. Air humidity is very high, so that combined with average lows it makes several Butia spss rot readily!!!!! (so the report of the garden owner).

Konstantinos you're talking about of garden of Sergio in sabaudia ?

a few days ago, we were talking about of livistona, in Italian forum,here's what we were saying:

my question: Sergio if I remember Correctly, you have also livistona jenkinsiana and livistona carinensis?

Sergio response:It is true Giuseppe, I have these two, but I tend not to consider them because they are the only species of Livistona, among those that I, who regularly burn every winter. Especially carinensis burns completely.

Do not die but in late winter are just ugly to behold.

[Phoenikakias]

Much obliged to you Giuseppe for the update! I was referring precisely to Sergio's garden there!

[PalmatierMeg]

I tried 2 of these in my garden lot in 2011. They went into immediate decline and died within a year. I got the distinct feeling this species won't work for me.

[Phoenikakias]

Meg, I have the feeling that if you treat this sp as desert palm, despite it being a Livistona, chances are many for a successful cultivation in your garden. I fear that lumping of Wissmania to the genus Livistona has led to much misunderstanding regarding horticultural needs. I have seen once on tv a documentary about infrastructure works in its natural habitat and so I had the chance to get a glimpse of the sub-soil. It was pure gravel! I can not imagine therefore how mulch or an overhead canopy could help to sucessful trial. If there is no shallow water table available for example, you should not compensate dry winter with a mulch keeping soil always moist (because this might be a problem during rainy season), instead you have to apply a watering schedule.

[Mandrew968]

I really have my doubts about people treating this palm as a true desert palm--yes they may not like overhead water, besides rain, but they MUST have water to survive--Ken Johnson can attest to this, anecdotally... This palm comes from places where there is a permanent water source and as such, the natives fight over the water which makes seed harvest, dangerous, from what I have heard... just like many other Australian Livistona that grow near permanent water--even if that water is not on the surface. Make no mistake, this palm must have water and the crown will fall over and eventually die if it does not have it!

[Phoenikakias]

Generally speaking no palm whatever can survive on long term without water during warm and dry weather. Even the so called desert palms are to be found naturally above natural water tanks or near river streams. So no wonder that this is also true for L carinensis.

[PalmatierMeg]

I planted my 2 3g palms out on my garden lot in 2011. No overhead irrigation - summer rain only. Still, they didn't make it - the two decoras & two australis are still going strong.

[Mandrew968]

I planted my 2 3g palms out on my garden lot in 2011. No overhead irrigation - summer rain only. Still, they didn't make it - the two decoras & two australis are still going strong.

I am fairly certain your issue was lack of water. This palm iis not what I would call a drought hardy palm.

[Phoenikakias]

I planted my 2 3g palms out on my garden lot in 2011. No overhead irrigation - summer rain only. Still, they didn't make it - the two decoras & two australis are still going strong.

I am fairly certain your issue was lack of water. This palm iis not what I would call a drought hardy palm.

It's easy to confirm this theory, if Meg can recall when (which season that is) her palm perished and in which way (rapidly or slow decline).

[SubTropicRay]

The younger ones planted along Fairchild's plant sale area don't look great. The older leaves seem to prematurely look ratty. This is not an easy plant to grow in Florida. Of course there are exceptions but the failed cases far outweigh the successes.

[oliver]

Here is mine in Brownsville, Texas. It has been an excellent grower for me. This was put in the ground from a 3 gallon size about 6 years ago. It has already flowered last year. I certainly hope it doesn't get as fat as a Volkswagon Beetle or else the wall of my pool might be in trouble!!

[Mandrew968]

Here is mine in Brownsville, Texas. It has been an excellent grower for me. This was put in the ground from a 3 gallon size about 6 years ago. It has already flowered last year. I certainly hope it doesn't get as fat as a Volkswagon Beetle or else the wall of my pool might be in trouble!!

That thing looks SHWEEEET! Thanks for sharing! I find it easy as well--you must keep the water to it, no doubt?

[oliver]

I have a sprinkler system, but my property is only 8' above sea level. I have a natural oxbow lake in my backyard which used to be part of the Rio Grande River. My water table is only 5' down and it is a little brackish but actually drinkable. Almost any water loving trees that I plant seem to take off after 3 or 4 years and I assume they are tapping into the ground water. This is one of them. Others that seem to grow like crazy are Royals, Bismarkias and Copernicicas, as well as Coccothrinax. Soil is not as basic as South Florida. It is mostly river sediment and very heavy but very fertile. When I first moved here 20 years ago, a very old man who knew I was interested in plants told me "If you put it in the ground here, it will grow" He was pretty much right. Myself and a few of my local collegues have done quite well with plams and cycads. We can even grow some tropical stuff like coconuts and more recently, Carpoxylons and Veitchias!

[Mandrew968]

I just looked you up and you are about as south as Texas can go! Oliver, what's your lowest temp, in the 20 years you have been there? The underground water explains it all, as far as why your palm collection is so impressive(hearing Copernicia makes it so)--you really need to post a thread of all your palms, man!

[Mandrew968]

Something is up with this guy. Not sure what it is... any suggestions?

[Mandrew968]

[Mandrew968]

Not sure if this is a nutrient issue of a bug... It's growing still, but obviously, it could be happier. Any help would be much appreciated!

[gyuseppe]

for sure is insect

[Mandrew968]

You think it's growing out of a bug infestation? Any Idea what to look for? 

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

It doesn't look like an insect infestation to me.  

On the first pic it appears there are necrotic areas on the leaves that are intact, so that would rule out a chewing insect. It also doesn't indicate a leaf miner or skeletoniser, since the areas of damage have a brown edges. The areas of damage also appear to be roughly in the same areas across the leaflets where it occurs, which would indicate that it happens before the fan unfurls, and maybe as the leaf is being formed or as it is emerging from the meristem.

It could be pathogenic, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the rest of the leaf, nor does it cause the necrosis to be water soaked.

It may be a problem in the meristem, maybe from some mechanical cause or an opportunistic fungi.... it wouldn't hurt to pour a weak solution of hydrogen peroxide in the crown for now, and see if the damage is seasonal.

[Mandrew968]

Thanks. Maybe it's fungal...

[Cindy Adair]

I recall seeing a stunning group of these at Nong Nooch gardens in Thailand at the 2012 Biennial. I would love to try a few of these given the chance... so striking and worth risk of injury from the sharp teeth!

[Mandrew968]

Update from this week. Thought it looked very silver. It has also grown out of that funk it was in...

[BrianRBruning@gmail.com]

Does anyone have seeds or seedlings to trade or sell?  I'm working on a garden in Palm Springs CA and it would grow well there.  I've only seen one nearby in Palm Desert. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

@BrianRBruning@gmail.comI wish.  Ever since I saw the one at Fairchild a few years back I have kept an eye out for seed.

[Meangreen94z]

On 3/18/2015 at 7:34 AM, Mandrew968 said:

I just looked you up and you are about as south as Texas can go! Oliver, what's your lowest temp, in the 20 years you have been there? The underground water explains it all, as far as why your palm collection is so impressive(hearing Copernicia makes it so)--you really need to post a thread of all your palms, man!

Brownsville hit 30*F in January 2018, the lowest temperature since 1989. So yes a very mild climate. I know this response was a little late to your question, but some updated photos would be great from Oliver.

[Meangreen94z]

On 3/16/2015 at 12:26 PM, oliver said:

Here is mine in Brownsville, Texas. It has been an excellent grower for me. This was put in the ground from a 3 gallon size about 6 years ago. It has already flowered last year. I certainly hope it doesn't get as fat as a Volkswagon Beetle or else the wall of my pool might be in trouble!!

Any new photos?

[oliver]

Here is an updated picture. It is still growing very well and has been flowering for the past 3 or 4 years. Unfortunately, it is a male and I can't find anyone with a girlfriend! I seem to have a knack for picking up rare plants that are males?? In the background are three coning Microcycas - all male!!

[Meangreen94z]

Very nice, one day if I can make it work Id like to relocate to the Rio Grande Valley. If you have the time, post more pictures of your collection. I’d love to see it.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Meangreen94z