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best microclimate in central florida


empireo22

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Orlando was officially at 19F as well, but I have talked to a lot of old folks and they have told me that it got colder in rural interior east central Florida. My Aunt and Uncle used to live in Christmas and they said that it got down to 13F with the (1/8 of an acre) pond on their property completely freezing over.

Brevard County, Fl

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Orlando was officially at 19F as well, but I have talked to a lot of old folks and they have told me that it got colder in rural interior east central Florida. My Aunt and Uncle used to live in Christmas and they said that it got down to 13F with the (1/8 of an acre) pond on their property completely freezing over.

I totally believe that account. I remember the early February 1996 freeze when I checked the glass tube (not digital) thermometer at first thing in the morning it read 17F, this was in suburban Altamonte Springs in a very woodsy neighborhood.

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This is after having about four hours of free time to gather a whole bunch of data. I computed average annual minimum temperatures and made estimates only when necessary. The estimation is based on average difference from weather stations with less history and those with more history and some of my personal experience with the area.

Brevard County, Fl

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I also want to add that I personally do not define zones in the same way everyone else does. Applying my definition of a zone and long term averages is this:

10A 33F to 38F

9B 28F to 33F

9A 23F to 28F

or if using Palmpedia's subtropical survivability index:

anything > 29F is the queen zone

29F to 31F is roughly the Bismark zone

31F to 32F is roughly the King zone

32F to 33F is the Royal zone

33F to 34F is the Manila zone

34F < is the coco zone

Brevard County, Fl

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Additionally here are a few good zone indicators:

Schinus terebinthifolius: common and invasive in 28F <

Casuarina glauca: Invasive in 28F <

Casuarina equisetifolia: Occur in 32F and invasive in 34F <

Ficus aurea: Occurs naturally at 29F, common and typically small at 30F, and becomes large (more than 10 foot diameter trunk) at 32F

Bursera simaruba: Occurs naturally at 30F as a small tree, more common and much larger at 33F

Brevard County, Fl

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I also want to add that I personally do not define zones in the same way everyone else does. Applying my definition of a zone and long term averages is this:

10A 33F to 38F

9B 28F to 33F

9A 23F to 28F

or if using Palmpedia's subtropical survivability index:

anything > 29F is the queen zone

29F to 31F is roughly the Bismark zone

31F to 32F is roughly the King zone

32F to 33F is the Royal zone

33F to 34F is the Manila zone

34F < is the coco zone

Interesting analysis. You've put yourself in 9b before, but you've also said that you have large coconuts near you. How do you see this as non-contradictory?

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I also want to add that I personally do not define zones in the same way everyone else does. Applying my definition of a zone and long term averages is this:

10A 33F to 38F

9B 28F to 33F

9A 23F to 28F

or if using Palmpedia's subtropical survivability index:

anything > 29F is the queen zone

29F to 31F is roughly the Bismark zone

31F to 32F is roughly the King zone

32F to 33F is the Royal zone

33F to 34F is the Manila zone

34F < is the coco zone

Interesting analysis. You've put yourself in 9b before, but you've also said that you have large coconuts near you. How do you see this as non-contradictory?

Because I think those coconuts are temporary. Merritt Island, according to a few of long time residents (and I mean I have talked to people who are over the age of 80), said that the island is full of coconuts until they get wiped out by a major freeze such as a 1962, 1983, 1985, 1989, and about a 60% death rate in 2010.

Brevard County, Fl

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I also will add that according to them, many coconuts on the island did survive 1977, even though there were at least one report that the temperature dropped to 17F in Melbourne that year.

Brevard County, Fl

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I see, the same can be said for my area then (excluding the barrier islands). The area around the Sarasota airport had a 50% die-off of coconuts in 2010 (most of the dead ones were Malayans though), and there aren't any from before the '80s freezes. If I go to the station that I told you about in the other thread, the average is about the same until you include the '80s freezes, which saw 23 in '81, 25 in '82, 20 in '83, 27 in '85, 26 in '86, and 25 in '89. That decade of freezes likely killed almost all of the coconuts on the mainland here, despite the fact that there are many tall ones that have become established since then.

Anna Maria Island is excluded in this though, as there are coconuts that are obviously from before the freezes of the '80s. I can't speak for Longboat, Lido or Siesta keys though, as I haven't driven around them as much, and they have many very rich owners who have coconuts with 60+ feet of trunk that have obviously been transplanted from further south, so it's harder to gauge what's been there for very long. I did see some coconuts on Siesta that had zero foliar damage from 2010, so I imagine that it's got to be pretty warm.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I don't know the west coast as well as I do east central Florida, so I am not able to reliably do a map of the Tampa Bay / Sarasota area by each isotherm like I just did with Brevard county, but I have been able to sort of approximate the east coast with the west coast here:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/?p=648964

I already showed you this. I was hoping that it would shed some light on the east / west coast comparisons.

Edited by Jimbean

Brevard County, Fl

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'

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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I don't know the west coast as well as I do east central Florida, so I am not able to reliably do a map of the Tampa Bay / Sarasota area by each isotherm like I just did with Brevard county, but I have been able to sort of approximate the east coast with the west coast here:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/?p=648964

I already showed you this. I was hoping that it would shed some light on the east / west coast comparisons.

I think that your previous maps seem to be fairly accurate for my area. We often end up talking in circles, but I enjoy it anyway because I think climate is fun. If that bothers you, that wasn't my intention.

Just for fun, here's the farthest inland coconut that survived 2010 around here without protection:

http://goo.gl/39nElw

This guy is about 11 miles west of the coast!

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I don't know the west coast as well as I do east central Florida, so I am not able to reliably do a map of the Tampa Bay / Sarasota area by each isotherm like I just did with Brevard county, but I have been able to sort of approximate the east coast with the west coast here:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/?p=648964

I already showed you this. I was hoping that it would shed some light on the east / west coast comparisons.

I think that your previous maps seem to be fairly accurate for my area. We often end up talking in circles, but I enjoy it anyway because I think climate is fun. If that bothers you, that wasn't my intention.

Just for fun, here's the farthest inland coconut that survived 2010 around here without protection:

http://goo.gl/39nElw

This guy is about 11 miles west of the coast!

I am exactly the same way. I find the subject fascinating since I was in high school back in the 00's. If I actually had more time off, I would map out the entire state like I just did with my county. One of the reasons why I do that is so when I go to buy a piece of property, I'll know where the warmer areas are at.

The west coast is interesting to me because I don't have the understanding of it like I do my own area, so I am left with approximations.

Brevard County, Fl

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As far as the furthest north and inland pre-2010 coconut on the east coast, is probably in West Melbourne.

Brevard County, Fl

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I have mentioned before that I know of one large trunking (25 feet tall, skinny trunked green malayan) coconut that survived 2010 unprotected. It is at that hotel near Sea World with all the large royals. A small Adonidia also survived that winter and is still there. This area has some excellent microclimates. By the time Orlando swells to an urban area the size of Miami or New York ( I'm speculating that this will even happen at some point) we should be able to line the streets with Areca catechu:)

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By the time Orlando swells to an urban area the size of Miami or New York ( I'm speculating that this will even happen at some point) we should be able to line the streets with Areca catechu:)

lol that's a bit of wishful thinking there :)

  • Upvote 1

Brevard County, Fl

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I've decided to procrastinate on my homework today and I went ahead and started on doing an isotherm map of the Treasure coast.

Brevard County, Fl

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By the time Orlando swells to an urban area the size of Miami or New York ( I'm speculating that this will even happen at some point)

I hope that day never comes where I live...

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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Theres coconuts in Sea World and Discovery Cove that survived 2009-10.

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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By the time Orlando swells to an urban area the size of Miami or New York ( I'm speculating that this will even happen at some point)

I hope that day never comes where I live...

Yeah I was thinking that if that is what he wanted he might as well just move to Palm Beach County.

Brevard County, Fl

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and in case you are wondering why the lines look like they are off from county to county, it is because the maps are not to scale.

Brevard County, Fl

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West Melbourne has some warm spots for sure, but despite those rare deadly cold events, Cocos do thrive here 90% of the time, so I don't know, Royals do very well in Palm Bay and all the Mature ones survived and were back by the end of summer.

A well cared for plant tolerates cold much better, so that's the other half of the story...not just absolute lows.

Malabar, Florida. Zone 10a, East Central Florida.

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A well cared for plant tolerates cold much better, so that's the other half of the story...not just absolute lows.

This is a good point that is important! Check out this scientific article showing that fertilization improves cold tolerance in coconuts.

http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/20/5/852.full

Most people plant palms and leave them alone, so those of us who go that extra step can get them to grow in areas that they normally wouldn't.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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A well cared for plant tolerates cold much better, so that's the other half of the story...not just absolute lows.

This is a good point that is important! Check out this scientific article showing that fertilization improves cold tolerance in coconuts.

http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/20/5/852.full

Most people plant palms and leave them alone, so those of us who go that extra step can get them to grow in areas that they normally wouldn't.

That's a Great article, This is another reason (Besides the climate) why they do better in the upscale areas on the barrier Islands as well, most of those people have professional landscaping services that give those regular fertilizer.

Malabar, Florida. Zone 10a, East Central Florida.

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Imagine if there were a massive earthquake and Florida separated from the rest of North America between Ocala and Gainsville by fifty miles. I think the average minimums in each location would warm up by about 8F or so.

Or how about we build a huge wall at the Canadian border :P

Brevard County, Fl

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Imagine if there were a massive earthquake and Florida separated from the rest of North America between Ocala and Gainsville by fifty miles. I think the average minimums in each location would warm up by about 8F or so.

Or how about we build a huge wall at the Canadian border :P

I think a nice tall mountain range on the Florida border would do!

Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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Imagine if there were a massive earthquake and Florida separated from the rest of North America between Ocala and Gainsville by fifty miles. I think the average minimums in each location would warm up by about 8F or so.

Or how about we build a huge wall at the Canadian border :P

I think a nice tall mountain range on the Florida border would do!

India has that and coconuts grow way farther north and inland than they do in Florida!

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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By the time Orlando swells to an urban area the size of Miami or New York ( I'm speculating that this will even happen at some point) we should be able to line the streets with Areca catechu:)

lol that's a bit of wishful thinking there :)

No doubt it is Jim. :innocent: I have, however seen empirical evidence demonstrating just how significant the urban warming effect is for the inner Orlando area. Orlando is now a solid zone 10a on average, a warm oasis in an area relatively far north and inland on the FL Peninsula to not average a freeze a year. Heck, Melbourne and Vero Beach often have lower lows on the coldest nights of the year. It also seems that this is true in, for example, Golden Gate Estates, west of Naples. Of course, the aforementioned area has warmer averages and much warmer days. But I have brought this up tons of times on here so I don't want to "beat a dead horse".

If I had to pick an area in Central FL with just palm/tropical gardening in mind, I would either select the immediate Coast of Martin County or a barrier island from Tampa to Punta Gorda.

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Maybe you can make a map for Orange county like I made for the treasure and space coasts. You can use the same methods that I used and show where the micro climates are and cold sinks are.

Brevard County, Fl

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  • 2 weeks later...

f3140.gif

This map held up during the latest cold event. If you take every location and add 4F, I predicted the differences pretty well.

Brevard County, Fl

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Jim, I believe the southern part of the barrier islands are a little cooler than say the town of Melbourne beach and indiatlantic north. I think the river being wider and possibly deeper that has that warming effect further north. here by the inlet seems to run a degree or two cooler. so you could probably run the 33 out on the southern part?

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Jim, I believe the southern part of the barrier islands are a little cooler than say the town of Melbourne beach and indiatlantic north. I think the river being wider and possibly deeper that has that warming effect further north. here by the inlet seems to run a degree or two cooler. so you could probably run the 33 out on the southern part?

I have thought about that. Also from a lack of urbanization.

I assumed that no significant temperature change occurs despite going further south.

Brevard County, Fl

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urbanization has a big part of it. I might be wrong but when looking at satellite image of the indian river say from Malabar rd on south it has a lighter color to it. maybe meaning it is shallower so less warming effect?

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  • 3 weeks later...

This actually needs some more work. I have already spent hours on it (spent some time on Seminole county too) and it still needs some adjustments.

zone 9A 23-28

zone 9B 28-33

Brevard County, Fl

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