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Rafael

2014/2015 Winter in south Europe

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siafu

Hi,

GPS is again showing a scary picture for the next 10 to 15 days for Iberia. It's a persistent continental cold air mass.

These tend to be dry and deadly. If it pans out, below freezing temperatures are very likely across much of Portugal and Spain.

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Kostas

Rafael, if its missing water, do water it(once a week should be fine if it doesn't rain and its not too exposed to the wind)! Cold winds are much more damaging on palms missing water. My Pritchardia schattaueri are happy with living in wet soil for 9months of the year, including winter. What you don't want is wet leafs during a night with freezing or very close to freezing temperatures(causes necrotic spots on their leafs from ice formation)

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Phoenikakias

Without having conducted any experiment of this kind, my past experience suggests that I should answer negatively to your question. Winter in central-south eastern Greece is distinguished through an often northern, dry and (of course) cold, bone-chilling wind. Ok, every wind not coming directly from a hot/warm desert area may cause more or less during a cool season the wind chill effect to a variable extent (I still remember the 'cool' atlantic wind during early April in Lisboa), but the real bone - chilling, northern, strong, dry wind ( not reaching yet freezing temps though) is a couple levels more serious (you just have to visit Paris at or near Xmas time to get an idea of what I am trying to say!). Well under such conditions my Pritchardia specimens have spent many times the winter time and most times though receiving only the occasional rain water, remain without damage. On the other hand the very severe and rare cold spell in 2004 caught me with pants down, meaning that dripping system was still on (though with a winter adjusted set-up) and all palms were getting watered at a regular frequency. Well I did not notice any benefit from this fact plus that additionally to damaged or dead palms I had also three destroyed watertimers. Also theoretically a palm in hibernation is, given or taken, less prone to cold damage than one actively growing and suddenly getting exposed to (or near) freezing temps. In this context also I can not see the benefit of watering a palm and thus motivating it to continue or resume growth in the 17 to 20's C, while it is known that within following hours temps will dip dramatically! Of course all those remarks are made in the light of my climate. In another climate with very short-lasting cold snaps and dramatic temp rise, answer may be different though...

I am growing P. Hillebrandii since 2 years ago and the last winter it suffered few to no damage at 0C. This one, with -0,4C, but this siberian-tipe and dry cold spell, it has maybe 40% exposed leaves damage (showing a sort of dehydration look). I dont know what to expect the next winter and what to do. Btw thanks to your detailed answer :)

Rafa, please post some pictures of your danaged Pritchardia as I will of mine, when damage becomes more apparent (for the time being only sign is some thin whitish/pale discoloration which is not easily visible on the glabrous leaves reflecting sunshine). When I use the term dehydration I refer rather to the shrunk foliage, whether still green or not, that is the opposite of stretched.

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Phoenikakias

I have checked the max-min thermometer in my garden today. It registered a barely above 2 C minimum temperature during recent cold spell. Nevertheless all totally exposed Pritchardia show some very minor damage. I suppose it has to do with the strong northern wind, but they do not show at all any signs of dehydration as is the case with a hillebrandii in a very recent topic about a freeze event in Corona Ca. Another Pritchardia (lowreyana) slightly more protected through house and a Magnolia tree sailed just through! Also the Coccothrinax miraguama is perkier than ever!

Gee, I have to correct my data, truth is that I have red incorrectly the indication on my analogue thermometer and the lowest recorded temp is actually just barely below -1 C :sick: , but I have no clue how long this low lasted and if on other parts of garden temp has fallen even lower or conversely remained on higher level. Thermo was placed in a shady and wind protected place.

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Kostas

Now thats funny as its the lowest temperature i recorded here in Melissia(330m elevation) as well with 10cm of snow cover and 3 days of snowfall....Of course here it was sustained for many many hours and wind was fierce.

Pyrgos supposedly saw -2.1C as a radiational freeze, go figure...Will update when i can check the thermometer in my garden...

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Phoenikakias

OK, now it's judgement day! Following pictures show definitely frost burn spots on leaves of two Pritchardia. It is to early for a final damage-account, but having seen before palms suffering from frost, this time leaves look stil quite stretched, meaning that in the majority of plant's cells cytoplasm did not burst out. Besides on my big hillebrandii frost burn signs are also visible on a still almost vertically hanging leaf but not on all leaves, strange...

Pritchardia #1 (a smaller specimen)

post-6141-0-79189600-1421523542_thumb.jp

post-6141-0-08826700-1421523649_thumb.jp

post-6141-0-65870900-1421523687_thumb.jp

Closest to the ground row of leaves looks still absolutely intact

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Phoenikakias

Pritchardia #2 specimen (larger one)

Strange thing that up to now frost sign appear selectively only on some leaves and not necessarily the vertically hanging ones, meaning that frost was not a radiational one.

post-6141-0-39206600-1421524168_thumb.jp

post-6141-0-56898500-1421524229_thumb.jp

post-6141-0-14318700-1421524319_thumb.jp

All pictures taken today

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Rafael

Hi,

GPS is again showing a scary picture for the next 10 to 15 days for Iberia. It's a persistent continental cold air mass.

These tend to be dry and deadly. If it pans out, below freezing temperatures are very likely across much of Portugal and Spain.

I really hope not and i dont notice that forecast, but some cold and wet climate, instead.

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Rafael

Konstantinos, here is one of mine hillebrandii.

Now it has larger damage, evidently frost damage.

Curious, not in all leaves...

There are many causes to this. Last years this one got no frost but now this place changed after necessary work on a new wall. It is less sheltered. I am working on new strategy to replace some more protection.

post-3292-0-30207000-1421579127_thumb.jp

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Kostas

Frost damage. Should be fine :)

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siafu

Hi,

GPS is again showing a scary picture for the next 10 to 15 days for Iberia. It's a persistent continental cold air mass.

These tend to be dry and deadly. If it pans out, below freezing temperatures are very likely across much of Portugal and Spain.

I really hope not and i dont notice that forecast, but some cold and wet climate, instead.

It has been changing from run to run.

Sometimes it gets better, sometimes worse.

Overall, it has improved with an increase of moisture. Let's hope this trend continues.

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SouthSeaNate

Been lovely here this weekend with southerly winds, reached 19C both today & yesterday & last night had a low of 16.5C :greenthumb:

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Alicante

Been lovely here this weekend with southerly winds, reached 19C both today & yesterday & last night had a low of 16.5C :greenthumb:

You are lucky buddy, we had those lows the last week... a day at about midnight we had 18ºC lol but the minimum was 14 or something like that. Now 14/8 due to this cold wave :(

One thing I am seeing in your signature that you put Malta on zone 11a. That was if temps never get under 4ºC, right?

But it's not mate, in Valetta this 1 January reached 2º and the minimum reached ever is 0,1ºC; the southernmost part of Almeria (Spain) where is Cabo de Gata located, even in this cold wave we are facing now, it never gets below 8ºC. The average for january is 17-18 and 11-12 and the lowest recorded temperature is about 2ºC. And it's calified on zone 10b even being hotter than Valletta...

The only places in Europe with climate ranges of 11a or more are on Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands. The southernmost part of Granada, Málaga and a bit of Cádiz, have the best climates on continental Europe (Islands from Europe included) because they grow even mangos and the temps and precipitations are 100% subtropical. But even on those places only a few of them are classified as 11a and that's the only place in all the European Union where mangos are grown extensively with comercial purposes if we don't count the islands I mentioned before.

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

I am seeing that in 2014 a day Luqa got snow: http://www.tutiempo.net/clima/Luqa/2014/165970.htm (días con nieve: 1)

And a lot of years the temps get near 2-3ºC, like this 2015 for example (you can see it on AccuWeather records) here is the link where it mentiones quite cold days: http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120217/local/Valentine-s-confirmed-as-coldest-February-day.407213

I am seeing that for being in zone 11a the lowest temperatures recorded have to be between 4,4ºC and 7,2ºC; and in Malta every year it gets under those marks !

I'm not saying this to disrespect you and I don't want to start an "climate battle" I just wanna let you know that the thing on the signature is wrong, like when I registered to this forum several years ago I've received a lot of corrections from other users hehe!

Valletta even is 10a ! because the lowest registered is under 1.7ºC that marks the spot of 10b.

I don't know if is 100% true the recording of 0.1ºC in Valletta, but Malta has no mountains so we can't see colder temperatures (I am seeing that the highest point is 250m so it's not gonna be colder at that point compared to the coast.. because even that point is near the coast). But one thing is 100% true, and the lowest official recorded on Valletta city is 1.4ºC and every year at least 1 day it gets under 4ºC so it can be classified at 11a.

Regards mate ! I hope this year we don't get more of those creepy cold waves...

Edited by pRoeZa*

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siafu

The only places in Europe with climate ranges of 11a or more are on Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands. The southernmost part of Granada, Málaga and a bit of Cádiz, have the best climates on continental Europe (Islands from Europe included) because they grow even mangos and the temps and precipitations are 100% subtropical. But even on those places only a few of them are classified as 11a and that's the only place in all the European Union where mangos are grown extensively with comercial purposes if we don't count the islands I mentioned before.

I checked the USDA site regarding the definition of USDA hardiness zones. Bold emphasis is mine.

"Hardiness zones are based on the average annual extreme minimum temperature during a 30-year period in the past, not the lowest temperature that has ever occurred in the past or might occur in the future. Gardeners should keep that in mind when selecting plants, especially if they choose to "push" their hardiness zone by growing plants not rated for their zone. In addition, although this edition of the USDA PHZM is drawn in the most detailed scale to date, there might still be microclimates that are too small to show up on the map."

So, Malta could very well be zone 11 according to this definition, provided the 30 year average stays above 4ºC.

No part of Europe has a tropical climate, currently, whereas the subtropical zone is extensive,

since it does not imply a frost free climate. Subtropical just means "not quite tropical" or simply "outside the tropics".

In fact, the whole mediterranean climate is also known as dry subtropical (dry summer),

as opposed to humid subtropical (wet summer), which is usually found on the eastern shore of continental masses.

Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands are part of Macaronesia and should be not included in Europe in geographic terms.

If one includes regions linked to Europe politically, then why exclude the French, Dutch and British territories that

are fully tropical?

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Alicante

The only places in Europe with climate ranges of 11a or more are on Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands. The southernmost part of Granada, Málaga and a bit of Cádiz, have the best climates on continental Europe (Islands from Europe included) because they grow even mangos and the temps and precipitations are 100% subtropical. But even on those places only a few of them are classified as 11a and that's the only place in all the European Union where mangos are grown extensively with comercial purposes if we don't count the islands I mentioned before.

I checked the USDA site regarding the definition of USDA hardiness zones. Bold emphasis is mine.

"Hardiness zones are based on the average annual extreme minimum temperature during a 30-year period in the past, not the lowest temperature that has ever occurred in the past or might occur in the future. Gardeners should keep that in mind when selecting plants, especially if they choose to "push" their hardiness zone by growing plants not rated for their zone. In addition, although this edition of the USDA PHZM is drawn in the most detailed scale to date, there might still be microclimates that are too small to show up on the map."

So, Malta could very well be zone 11 according to this definition, provided the 30 year average stays above 4ºC.

No part of Europe has a tropical climate, currently, whereas the subtropical zone is extensive,

since it does not imply a frost free climate. Subtropical just means "not quite tropical" or simply "outside the tropics".

In fact, the whole mediterranean climate is also known as dry subtropical (dry summer),

as opposed to humid subtropical (wet summer), which is usually found on the eastern shore of continental masses.

Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands are part of Macaronesia and should be not included in Europe in geographic terms.

If one includes regions linked to Europe politically, then why exclude the French, Dutch and British territories that

are fully tropical?

By average annual minimum in 30 years what do you mean ¿? :

- The lowest temperature a single day in the past 30 years?

or

- The average of minimums in the coldest month of the past 30 years?

Because if it's the first Malta should be on 10b because for example this year 1 day it reached 2ºC and as I see on AccuWeather recordings 3 days of this year have reached minimums with less than 4,4ºC

If it's the second... sure it's 11a. But if the hardiness zone it's that, my zone it's 11a too haha! Because we get a couple of times a year (like in Malta) temps less than 4,4ºC. We don't have any freezing mark in the last 30 years (or even more, but the meteorological station of this zone only was installed in the 80's; and the 90% of vegetation is orange trees haha!) and we NEVER get an average of minimums in a month lower than 5ºC... being the average of minimums in my place 7ºC at december, the coldest month.

In the coldest month of the history of Spain (February 1956) the average minimums (not the average) for Alicante were 3.0ºC (http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/efemerides_extremos*?w=0&k=val&l=8019&datos=det&x=8019&m=13&v=TMmB) and that's the recording from the airport, and my zone it's a little bit warmer in winters and the airport is not as protected as the city itself. That was the coldest month and the coldest wave that hit Spain registered on the history.

In my whole life I don't seen ever any month with an average low temperature under 4,5ºC or 7 concurring days with less than 6ºC! So the southernmost part of Spain where are extended mango plantations or the southernmost part of Almeria (like Cabo de Gata which gets an average of 10-11-12ºC minimums on winters) are inside zone 11b!

Well all those places you mentioned aren't counted obviously. They don't belong to their respective countries like Azores or Madeira to Portugal or like Canary Islands to Spain. For example the french polinesia has doesn't much connection with France and it's quite an independent country... same as the other caribbean islands. Some good examples are Aruba and other surrounding islands where they recently got an authonomy lookalike to independence. They even don't speak dutch! (almost all the persons living there speak papiamento) And geographically they are on other continents... yes our islands (yours and mine :P) they are on Macaronesia but Canary Islands and Madeira/Azores are quite close to Europe. But what matters more is that they depend at 100% from their mother countries. The other places not; and like I said before they doesn't count for this thread. I only said that they are the only places with those temps but Madeira and the Canary Islands would be on 12a !

Regards

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Cikas

The only places in Europe with climate ranges of 11a or more are on Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands. The southernmost part of Granada, Málaga and a bit of Cádiz, have the best climates on continental Europe (Islands from Europe included) because they grow even mangos and the temps and precipitations are 100% subtropical. But even on those places only a few of them are classified as 11a and that's the only place in all the European Union where mangos are grown extensively with comercial purposes if we don't count the islands I mentioned before.

I checked the USDA site regarding the definition of USDA hardiness zones. Bold emphasis is mine.

"Hardiness zones are based on the average annual extreme minimum temperature during a 30-year period in the past, not the lowest temperature that has ever occurred in the past or might occur in the future. Gardeners should keep that in mind when selecting plants, especially if they choose to "push" their hardiness zone by growing plants not rated for their zone. In addition, although this edition of the USDA PHZM is drawn in the most detailed scale to date, there might still be microclimates that are too small to show up on the map."

So, Malta could very well be zone 11 according to this definition, provided the 30 year average stays above 4ºC.

No part of Europe has a tropical climate, currently, whereas the subtropical zone is extensive,

since it does not imply a frost free climate. Subtropical just means "not quite tropical" or simply "outside the tropics".

In fact, the whole mediterranean climate is also known as dry subtropical (dry summer),

as opposed to humid subtropical (wet summer), which is usually found on the eastern shore of continental masses.

Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands are part of Macaronesia and should be not included in Europe in geographic terms.

If one includes regions linked to Europe politically, then why exclude the French, Dutch and British territories that

are fully tropical?

By average annual minimum in 30 years what do you mean ¿? :

- The lowest temperature a single day in the past 30 years?

or

- The average of minimums in the coldest month of the past 30 years?

Because if it's the first Malta should be on 10b because for example this year 1 day it reached 2ºC and as I see on AccuWeather recordings 3 days of this year have reached minimums with less than 4,4ºC

If it's the second... sure it's 11a. But if the hardiness zone it's that, my zone it's 11a too haha! Because we get a couple of times a year (like in Malta) temps less than 4,4ºC. We don't have any freezing mark in the last 30 years (or even more, but the meteorological station of this zone only was installed in the 80's; and the 90% of vegetation is orange trees haha!) and we NEVER get an average of minimums in a month lower than 5ºC... being the average of minimums in my place 7ºC at december, the coldest month.

In the coldest month of the history of Spain (February 1956) the average minimums (not the average) for Alicante were 3.0ºC (http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/efemerides_extremos*?w=0&k=val&l=8019&datos=det&x=8019&m=13&v=TMmB) and that's the recording from the airport, and my zone it's a little bit warmer in winters and the airport is not as protected as the city itself. That was the coldest month and the coldest wave that hit Spain registered on the history.

In my whole life I don't seen ever any month with an average low temperature under 4,5ºC or 7 concurring days with less than 6ºC! So the southernmost part of Spain where are extended mango plantations or the southernmost part of Almeria (like Cabo de Gata which gets an average of 10-11-12ºC minimums on winters) are inside zone 11b!

Well all those places you mentioned aren't counted obviously. They don't belong to their respective countries like Azores or Madeira to Portugal or like Canary Islands to Spain. For example the french polinesia has doesn't much connection with France and it's quite an independent country... same as the other caribbean islands. Some good examples are Aruba and other surrounding islands where they recently got an authonomy lookalike to independence. They even don't speak dutch! (almost all the persons living there speak papiamento) And geographically they are on other continents... yes our islands (yours and mine :P) they are on Macaronesia but Canary Islands and Madeira/Azores are quite close to Europe. But what matters more is that they depend at 100% from their mother countries. The other places not; and like I said before they doesn't count for this thread. I only said that they are the only places with those temps but Madeira and the Canary Islands would be on 12a !

Regards

You take the absolute lowest recorded temperature of each year. For the last 20-30 years. Then you take average of that.

That average is USDA zone.

Mediterranean climate is dry summer subtropical climate. Sub-tropical climate is not measured by were tropical plants like mango can grow.

Also accureweather is not accurate for Europe. Their temperatures can be up to 10 degrees Celsius lower than actual ones.

Tutiempo is accurate. :greenthumb:

Edited by Cikas

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Alicante

The only places in Europe with climate ranges of 11a or more are on Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands. The southernmost part of Granada, Málaga and a bit of Cádiz, have the best climates on continental Europe (Islands from Europe included) because they grow even mangos and the temps and precipitations are 100% subtropical. But even on those places only a few of them are classified as 11a and that's the only place in all the European Union where mangos are grown extensively with comercial purposes if we don't count the islands I mentioned before.

I checked the USDA site regarding the definition of USDA hardiness zones. Bold emphasis is mine.

"Hardiness zones are based on the average annual extreme minimum temperature during a 30-year period in the past, not the lowest temperature that has ever occurred in the past or might occur in the future. Gardeners should keep that in mind when selecting plants, especially if they choose to "push" their hardiness zone by growing plants not rated for their zone. In addition, although this edition of the USDA PHZM is drawn in the most detailed scale to date, there might still be microclimates that are too small to show up on the map."

So, Malta could very well be zone 11 according to this definition, provided the 30 year average stays above 4ºC.

No part of Europe has a tropical climate, currently, whereas the subtropical zone is extensive,

since it does not imply a frost free climate. Subtropical just means "not quite tropical" or simply "outside the tropics".

In fact, the whole mediterranean climate is also known as dry subtropical (dry summer),

as opposed to humid subtropical (wet summer), which is usually found on the eastern shore of continental masses.

Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands are part of Macaronesia and should be not included in Europe in geographic terms.

If one includes regions linked to Europe politically, then why exclude the French, Dutch and British territories that

are fully tropical?

By average annual minimum in 30 years what do you mean ¿? :

- The lowest temperature a single day in the past 30 years?

or

- The average of minimums in the coldest month of the past 30 years?

Because if it's the first Malta should be on 10b because for example this year 1 day it reached 2ºC and as I see on AccuWeather recordings 3 days of this year have reached minimums with less than 4,4ºC

If it's the second... sure it's 11a. But if the hardiness zone it's that, my zone it's 11a too haha! Because we get a couple of times a year (like in Malta) temps less than 4,4ºC. We don't have any freezing mark in the last 30 years (or even more, but the meteorological station of this zone only was installed in the 80's; and the 90% of vegetation is orange trees haha!) and we NEVER get an average of minimums in a month lower than 5ºC... being the average of minimums in my place 7ºC at december, the coldest month.

In the coldest month of the history of Spain (February 1956) the average minimums (not the average) for Alicante were 3.0ºC (http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/efemerides_extremos*?w=0&k=val&l=8019&datos=det&x=8019&m=13&v=TMmB) and that's the recording from the airport, and my zone it's a little bit warmer in winters and the airport is not as protected as the city itself. That was the coldest month and the coldest wave that hit Spain registered on the history.

In my whole life I don't seen ever any month with an average low temperature under 4,5ºC or 7 concurring days with less than 6ºC! So the southernmost part of Spain where are extended mango plantations or the southernmost part of Almeria (like Cabo de Gata which gets an average of 10-11-12ºC minimums on winters) are inside zone 11b!

Well all those places you mentioned aren't counted obviously. They don't belong to their respective countries like Azores or Madeira to Portugal or like Canary Islands to Spain. For example the french polinesia has doesn't much connection with France and it's quite an independent country... same as the other caribbean islands. Some good examples are Aruba and other surrounding islands where they recently got an authonomy lookalike to independence. They even don't speak dutch! (almost all the persons living there speak papiamento) And geographically they are on other continents... yes our islands (yours and mine :P) they are on Macaronesia but Canary Islands and Madeira/Azores are quite close to Europe. But what matters more is that they depend at 100% from their mother countries. The other places not; and like I said before they doesn't count for this thread. I only said that they are the only places with those temps but Madeira and the Canary Islands would be on 12a !

Regards

You take the absolute lowest recorded temperature of each year. For the last 20-30 years. Then you take average of that.

That average is USDA zone.

Mediterranean climate is dry summer subtropical climate. Sub-tropical climate is not measured by were tropical plants like mango can grow.

Also accureweather is not accurate for Europe. Their temperatures can be up to 10 degrees Celsius lower than actual ones.

Tutiempo is accurate. :greenthumb:

Yes I know that mate, but I just wanted to make the description. I know... that's more than subtropical climate where the mangos grow and it's not measured by that.

For example in the Canary Islands some spots don't have tropical climate because the rain is very very very little every year... with ranges to 50 to 200mm of rain. But with 20-21/16-17 at winter and 31-32/23-24 at summers even the coconuts grow and give fruit ... but the climate it's spotted as "subtropical desertic"

Places like Sochi or Charlotte, NC get as "subtropical warm climate" and they get every year temperatures even close to -10ºC, and they get in the coldest months a lot of freezes... those climate qualifications are quite strange because it's nothing subtropical in a place which gets an average of freezing temperatures for more than 60 days ! (Charlotte, NC) Sochi it's a bit warmer but when the cold hits Sochi the temps can go to -8ºC quite easily... in Charlotte the temps get easily under -10ºC in the winters. There are 2 different types of subtropical climate... cfa and cwa. CWA is the real subtropical; quite near to tropical temps...

But all that marks it it's the precipitations...

Well; returning to the thread. Thanks God that this cold wave it's not hitting us that the first of this year... where we got 3,6ºC.

All those days we got 6-7ºC as minimums... and 5ºC in the coldest day. But the real difference is on maximums. Until last week we got everyday 19-20-21 and now 12-13-14 it's quite cold but well... at least the minimums are quite good.

Edited by pRoeZa*

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SouthSeaNate

Been lovely here this weekend with southerly winds, reached 19C both today & yesterday & last night had a low of 16.5C :greenthumb:

You are lucky buddy, we had those lows the last week... a day at about midnight we had 18ºC lol but the minimum was 14 or something like that. Now 14/8 due to this cold wave :(

One thing I am seeing in your signature that you put Malta on zone 11a. That was if temps never get under 4ºC, right?

But it's not mate, in Valetta this 1 January reached 2º and the minimum reached ever is 0,1ºC; the southernmost part of Almeria (Spain) where is Cabo de Gata located, even in this cold wave we are facing now, it never gets below 8ºC. The average for january is 17-18 and 11-12 and the lowest recorded temperature is about 2ºC. And it's calified on zone 10b even being hotter than Valletta...

The only places in Europe with climate ranges of 11a or more are on Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands. The southernmost part of Granada, Málaga and a bit of Cádiz, have the best climates on continental Europe (Islands from Europe included) because they grow even mangos and the temps and precipitations are 100% subtropical. But even on those places only a few of them are classified as 11a and that's the only place in all the European Union where mangos are grown extensively with comercial purposes if we don't count the islands I mentioned before.

To work out the hardiness zone it is an average of the absolute minimums of a 30 year period (the current period worked is 1981-2010) in Malta using the Luqa Airport station the figure comes in around 7C. So zone 11a.

The figure of 2C was again recorded at the airport, not Valletta, & it was the coldest temperature recorded for many years. The absolute record low at the airport is 1.4C recorded in 1981 & for Malta as a whole it is 1.2C recorded in Valletta in 1895.

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SouthSeaNate

I am seeing that in 2014 a day Luqa got snow: http://www.tutiempo.net/clima/Luqa/2014/165970.htm (días con nieve: 1)

And a lot of years the temps get near 2-3ºC, like this 2015 for example (you can see it on AccuWeather records) here is the link where it mentiones quite cold days: http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120217/local/Valentine-s-confirmed-as-coldest-February-day.407213

I am seeing that for being in zone 11a the lowest temperatures recorded have to be between 4,4ºC and 7,2ºC; and in Malta every year it gets under those marks !

I'm not saying this to disrespect you and I don't want to start an "climate battle" I just wanna let you know that the thing on the signature is wrong, like when I registered to this forum several years ago I've received a lot of corrections from other users hehe!

Valletta even is 10a ! because the lowest registered is under 1.7ºC that marks the spot of 10b.

I don't know if is 100% true the recording of 0.1ºC in Valletta, but Malta has no mountains so we can't see colder temperatures (I am seeing that the highest point is 250m so it's not gonna be colder at that point compared to the coast.. because even that point is near the coast). But one thing is 100% true, and the lowest official recorded on Valletta city is 1.4ºC and every year at least 1 day it gets under 4ºC so it can be classified at 11a.

Regards mate ! I hope this year we don't get more of those creepy cold waves...

No it did not snow, it was soft hail. The last time snow was recorded in Malta was 1962 in the centre of the island & even this is thought by the Met Office to have been hail as there is no photographic evidence.

Tutiempo figures are incorrect & have many errors as does Accuweather...

Most years do not get anywhere near 2C/3C or even 4C let alone at least one day a year & as I have said the average absolute minimum over the last 30 years works out around 7C, so zone 11a.

You say you are in Valencia, then say you have not had a freeze for 30 years?? Which is odd as the weather station in Valencia hads has two -1.7C's in the last 30 days & even a low of -0.1C on the 20th January & temperatures lower than -5C in the last few years. If you are using your own personal weather station figures then it isn't fair to base those against the ones from Luqa airport, you should compare like for like. My own personal weather station here on the coast is warmer than Luqa airport & the lowest temperature I have recorded this winter so far is 6.0C...

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Alicante

I am seeing that in 2014 a day Luqa got snow: http://www.tutiempo.net/clima/Luqa/2014/165970.htm (días con nieve: 1)

And a lot of years the temps get near 2-3ºC, like this 2015 for example (you can see it on AccuWeather records) here is the link where it mentiones quite cold days: http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120217/local/Valentine-s-confirmed-as-coldest-February-day.407213

I am seeing that for being in zone 11a the lowest temperatures recorded have to be between 4,4ºC and 7,2ºC; and in Malta every year it gets under those marks !

I'm not saying this to disrespect you and I don't want to start an "climate battle" I just wanna let you know that the thing on the signature is wrong, like when I registered to this forum several years ago I've received a lot of corrections from other users hehe!

Valletta even is 10a ! because the lowest registered is under 1.7ºC that marks the spot of 10b.

I don't know if is 100% true the recording of 0.1ºC in Valletta, but Malta has no mountains so we can't see colder temperatures (I am seeing that the highest point is 250m so it's not gonna be colder at that point compared to the coast.. because even that point is near the coast). But one thing is 100% true, and the lowest official recorded on Valletta city is 1.4ºC and every year at least 1 day it gets under 4ºC so it can be classified at 11a.

Regards mate ! I hope this year we don't get more of those creepy cold waves...

No it did not snow, it was soft hail. The last time snow was recorded in Malta was 1962 in the centre of the island & even this is thought by the Met Office to have been hail as there is no photographic evidence.

Tutiempo figures are incorrect & have many errors as does Accuweather...

Most years do not get anywhere near 2C/3C or even 4C let alone at least one day a year & as I have said the average absolute minimum over the last 30 years works out around 7C, so zone 11a.

You say you are in Valencia, then say you have not had a freeze for 30 years?? Which is odd as the weather station in Valencia hads has two -1.7C's in the last 30 days & even a low of -0.1C on the 20th January & temperatures lower than -5C in the last few years. If you are using your own personal weather station figures then it isn't fair to base those against the ones from Luqa airport, you should compare like for like. My own personal weather station here on the coast is warmer than Luqa airport & the lowest temperature I have recorded this winter so far is 6.0C...

I'm not living in Valencia and those temperatures are very bad, they are 3-4ºC less than the real recorded temperature. On 20th January Valencia's minimum temperature was 3,4ºC: http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=val&l=8416Y&w=2&datos=det&x=&f=tmax

I live in a warmer zone of Valencia. I say Valencia because Valencia it's the province, not referring to Valencia the city. But even referring to the city those temperatures are quite far from reality.

Because the lowest temperature recorded in the last 30 days in Valencia is a bit more than 2º and only one day; that day we get here 3,6ºC. And it was in the first and colder cold wave of this year. Maybe in the airport of Valencia it reached that day somewhere between 0ºC but not -1.7. Quite normal, every year freezes in Manises. Because the airport is located in Manises, 10km more in the interior than Valencia and it's an a bit higher elevation. That without counting that all the cold air hits on it so sometimes it marks a bit less or a bit more in summers.My zone is warmer than Valencia city; the average for Valencia city it's 17,8ºC. For my place the average is 19ºC. I ever didn't saw any roystonea or archontophoenix in the city of Valencia, but I saw them and I know where they are near my town... In Spain where the cold hits it's very important to be on the coast. 10km away from the coast and you get freeze. 1-2km of the coast and you get 2-3 more centigrades. Incredible but true!

About 1 or maximum 2 days per year in average it gets between 1 and 2ºC in Valencia. And one day in 2-3 years it gets between 0º and 1º or it can reach 0ºC.

In my place 1-2 days per year gets between 3-4ºC ... not less. In the last 30 years there isn't any mark below -0ºC.

Are you sure that the average of the absolute minimums over 30 years are around 7ºC ¿? In AccuWeather I see that in 2014 in Valetta the temps got 2º and 3ºC, well they put temperatures lower than the normal ones (AccuWeather) but I see Valletta times and I see temps of 3-4ºC... and even on february (like in the last link I've putted) you've got a very cold day in 2012... In 99 you've got 2.1ºC on 14 February and 3.0ºC on 14 February in 1984... and that counting that it was in the medium of the month of February... You are right, Malta is on 11A. But like I am seeing, the minimum averages are a bit far from that 7ºC; they have to be somewhere next to 5ºC... no ¿? But yes it's zone 11A !

OMG I checked AccuWeather and from Valencia it's very very very unaccurate. http://www.accuweather.com/es/es/valencia/310683/january-weather/310683 LOL from where they get those temps ¿? man! They are saying that in 30 December it was -7ºC hahahahahhahahah new cold record in Valencia... LOL ! :floor::floor::floor: that day Valencia got about 4º at minimum... Another day with 19º - 9ºC they are saying that it was 10 - 1 lolll ! I live here: http://www.accuweather.com/es/es/gandia/306359/january-weather/306359 and the coldest days they "record" 2-3º less than the real recorded ones, because everyday I checked my station, another better station and the official AEMET station and the coldest day it was 3,6ºC ... they say we reached 0º :floor: yes you are right... AccuWeather is very unprecise. Even the coldest zones located at 700m and 100km from Valencia didn't get -7ºC... xDD

Thanks for making me know this hehehe... I was thinking that the USDA is decided by the lowest temperature ... not the average of them!

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

Now we get 7.7ºC according to the official AEMET station (AEMET is the acronym of Agencia Estatal de Meteorologia which is Spain's government official meteorology agency)

My station marks 8ºC and the other one which is better and more precise than mine marks 7,9ºC. AccuWeather says 5ºC. Yesterday lowest temperature recorded was 6,2ºC and they say it was 2ºC LOL : http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=val&l=8058Y&w=0&datos=img&x=h24&f=temperatura (the official station)

well guys you were very right, AccuWeather is very unprecise :floor: ... they do the job quite well in some of Spain zones, but in places like Valencia they get even temps 13-14º lower than the real ones... like that one in Valencia in 30 December. I hope to make some photos from the roystoneas those days... they were in a deep green in the final of December... but they get temps between 3,5 and 4,5ºC 3 times in those last 30 days so I'm gonna get to see them those next days... I hope they aren't a bit burned :)

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Phoenikakias

Now we are having a strong 'uppercut' in the weather-debate :mrlooney:

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SouthSeaNate

Yes for sure, no where in Spain has ever remained frost free, even right at the coast & amateur stations don't count, we must only use historical weather stations from the official Met Office of the country in question...

These official stations show Valencia to be quite a bit cooler than you claim with a record low of -7.2C:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Valencia

And this link shows the last 30 days of data at Valencia airport, where it did indeed drop to -1.7C on 2 nights:

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ord=REV&ndays=30&ano=2015&mes=01&day=23&hora=12&ind=08284

And yes Luqa airport may every few years get a temperature down to around 4C, but the record low is 1.4C, & the average of absolute lows over the period 1981-2010 comes in around 7C (I don't recall the exact figure, it's something like 6.7C) so yes zone 11a. Saying that the airport is located inland & being an airport it is an artificial open expanse of land, so temperatures drop lower there than elsewhere on the Island. There has never been a frost on Malta as we are a tiny island surrounded by relatively warm sea & it takes very cold air (which like in December gave snow to even Palermo & coastal southern Italy) to give any sort of proper cold weather here, which is extremely rare. The lowest ever daytime temperature recorded in Malta is also around 7C... As I said the night it dropped to 2C at Luqa, here on the coast it dropped to just 6C & last winter Luqa had an low of 7C & here the lowest was 9C.

Here is some info on the climate of Malta, with climate data for Luqa airport & another station, Balzan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Malta

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Phoenikakias

:beat_deadhorse: Ouch!

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gyuseppe

Now we are having a strong 'uppercut' in the weather-debate :mrlooney:

Konstantinos
Here it rains from a week
but temperatures are good enough

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SouthSeaNate

:beat_deadhorse: Ouch!

Indeed, but we can try to educate :greenthumb:

The weather here is also wet for the next week, with lots of thunder too, but at least minimum temperatures above 10C...

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Alicante

Maybe you are just too young to remember...

http://www.tiempo.com/ram/2488/la-gran-helada-del-56/

Unfortunately, these events can happen again without notice...

Like I've said before the biggest cold wave that hit Spain, registered in the history of Spain, it's the one from 1956.

Where Alicante got -4ºC. What has to do in here a recording from 1956 ¿? :laugh2::laugh2:

Well in the last 30 years like I was saying we got no temps under -0ºC so I hope that never will pass again something like that :crying:

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

Yes for sure, no where in Spain has ever remained frost free, even right at the coast & amateur stations don't count, we must only use historical weather stations from the official Met Office of the country in question...

These official stations show Valencia to be quite a bit cooler than you claim with a record low of -7.2C:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Valencia

And this link shows the last 30 days of data at Valencia airport, where it did indeed drop to -1.7C on 2 nights:

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ord=REV&ndays=30&ano=2015&mes=01&day=23&hora=12&ind=08284

And yes Luqa airport may every few years get a temperature down to around 4C, but the record low is 1.4C, & the average of absolute lows over the period 1981-2010 comes in around 7C (I don't recall the exact figure, it's something like 6.7C) so yes zone 11a. Saying that the airport is located inland & being an airport it is an artificial open expanse of land, so temperatures drop lower there than elsewhere on the Island. There has never been a frost on Malta as we are a tiny island surrounded by relatively warm sea & it takes very cold air (which like in December gave snow to even Palermo & coastal southern Italy) to give any sort of proper cold weather here, which is extremely rare. The lowest ever daytime temperature recorded in Malta is also around 7C... As I said the night it dropped to 2C at Luqa, here on the coast it dropped to just 6C & last winter Luqa had an low of 7C & here the lowest was 9C.

Here is some info on the climate of Malta, with climate data for Luqa airport & another station, Balzan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Malta

Ah ok the airport. You first said that those marks were in Valencia and I ensure 100% that you were wrong. Ok, the airport is a different thing. Like I said I don't know why but the zone with the airport can get very low temperatures. For example now Valencia got 9,1º and the airport 4,9º...

On 20 January the lowest recorded temperature in Valencia was 3,4ºC. Here you got the most precise weather station of Valencia: http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=val&l=8416Y&w=2&datos=det&x=&f=tmax

In my town in 20 January we got 4,3ºC. In 30 December we got as I said before 3,6ºC and Valencia got about 3ºC. Here you have it : http://www.abc.es/comunidad-valencia/20150116/abcp-comunidad-despidio-diciembre-seco-20150116.html "El 29 fue el día más frío con máximas que apenas superaron los 12 grados en el litoral y con heladas en el interior." TRANSLATION: 29 of December was the coldest day of December 2014 with maximums of only 12º on the coast and freezes in the interior"

It freezed in the interior (10-15km from coast like Manises, but not all places from interior!), but none freeze at any point of the coast; without freezes even at Castellón, which is more at the north and a bit colder :winkie:

You are saying that those stations show Valencia " a bit cooler than you claim" ... what ¿?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Valencia look at the temps from 2000 to 2010.

16,76º average maximum in January and 7,57º average minimum. I was saying 18-19º and 7-8º in my zone which is a bit warmer than Valencia. And 18.6ºC of average. I was saying everytime that we have an average of 18.5-19 per year ... Valencia has 18,6ºC so I was right ... and I was talking about my zone which is a bit warmer so without doubts we got about 19ºC of average per year. :)

I ensure you that a lot of places from Spain are frost free in the last 50 years. A lot. :winkie: ; in Almuñecar you got plants on the streets and parks with the same trees as you find in Durban. There are archontophoenix, syagrus, banana trees, archontophoenix, raveneas, etc... and not only 1 or 2 specimens. And in those places (Costa Tropical is called the zone) grow the custard apple and mango. How can grow those kind of plants in a place with frosts ? hehehe, it's a NO FROST zone. In the last 50 years ; 1956 was 59 years ago.

And there are even places in Spain with no frost free the last 50 years no, with frost free in all the history recordings. Like Almeria:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almer%C3%ADa#Clima

Lowest temperature recorded ever : +0.1ºC. Like I said before, in Cabo de Gata the temps are even milder and in that area I think that in all the history of Spain the temperatures never got under 1ºC but there isn't any weather station in that point. The point is that the official weather station in Almeria never marked less than 0,1ºC, and to see an temperature less than 3ºC in Almeria is something very very rare, is as rare as seeing 3ºC in Malta.

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

Almost all of the Costa Tropical (Tropical Coast translated) (it's the official name for the southernmost zone of Spain) are frost free zones.

Look, recordings from the newspapers of 1956: http://www.divulgameteo.es/uploads/Febrero-56.pdf

"The only province capitals where didn't froze in February 1956 were Málaga with 1ºC and Almería with 1,2ºC" And the city of Ceuta and Melilla with 2ºC (those not count, they're on Africa) It's strange that in the hardest cold wave in Spain's history (recorded) in Almeria it got 1,2ºC and in 2005 it got 0,1ºC which is the lowest temperature recorded ever. Strange isn't it :lol2:

That in province capitals. If we take Motril, Almuñecar, Marbella, etc etc it can apply the same. Those are frost free zones with annual averages of ~20ºC; indeed the extended plantations of mango would die. You get a freeze on the mangos and you can say goodbye to all the plantations. That's why you can't find mangos on Valencia; but you can find them in "Costa Tropical"

That was one of the coldests airwave in Europe, (and the coldest one in Spain) copied from a website: -28º en Munich, -25º en Varsovia y Estocolmo , -20º en Turín y -11º en Paris. All Europe suffered :(

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

The last post I putted archontophoenix two times. I was wrong, I wanted to put archontophoenix and roystonea. Tell me an place in Europe that grows a healthy, big, and flowering Roystonea. And I want photos please :)

fuma1y.jpg

Roystonea-Regia-1.jpg

176.jpg

Look, even the papayas are growing. Do you know about an big and flowering papaya tree with papayas on Europe ? :)

papayo3.jpg

Mature and healthy Dypsis Lutescens:

20zbur6.jpg

very frost zone mate, no? :indifferent: by doing an quick street view you can see a lot of syagrus, some roystoneas, some archontophoenix, etc... and the extended plantations of mango and custard apple.

Well indeed the extended plantations of mango would die; and I add those ones from custard apple would die too, not only the mangos. With the lightest froze possible, -0ºC for more than 2-3 hours, will cause the death of blooms, fruit, leaves, twigs and branches.. With an temperature below the freezing mark for 5-6 hours... will cause the death of the mango. 0 degrees, not -1ºC. With -1ºC the mango will die, you can say goodbye to all the plantations! I've seen a lot of times mango from Málaga in the Aldi supermarkets or the Mercadona supermarkets (biggest supermarket in Spain, like BestBuy for America) so the plantations are extended and they are intented for exportation. Obviously this can't be planted in a zone that gets freezes. The mango will suffer a lot even with 3-4ºC they will drop the fruits; temperatures that actually can occur for a few hours in some rare years in all Europe, Malta included. Málaga like Almería never knowed what is freezing: http://www.divulgameteo.es/uploads/Febrero-56.pdf even in the coldest month in the history of Spain (February 1956) but in Almeria there aren't all those tropical palm trees like in the "Costa Tropical" because the climate is desertic. Not arid, desertic. The average is about 150-200mm per year and there were years that it rained a few days. Obviously in private gardens they have to exist, but in public places like in the Costa Tropical they can't exist. Even the syagrus planted everytime show the dryness in their leaves, and they get a bit of water from the irrigations, but not the sufficient. Imagine putting a roystonea or a archontophoenix... they need at least 500-600mm per year.

With the oranges is quite the same; if you get temps below 2-2.5ºC the fruits will not taste that good. Valencia is the land of oranges (almost 90% of the vegetation in the coast of the Comunidad Valenciana (provinces of Valencia, Alicante and Castellón) are oranges. There is a very few vegetation because the arid climate and the oranges make almost all the green. If you get 3-4 hours temps lower than -0.5 / -0.º or lower, the fruits that are madurating would stop their maduration. One degree less than that and you can say goodbye to the fruits. And, 6-7 hours with an temperature below the freezing mark, will dry the orange tree, or if you're lucky, your tree is not gonna be productive that year but it won't die. If you find -2ºC or less, you can say goodbye to all the plantations. If you think that Valencia is a "frost zone" you are sooooooo wrong. Because tell me why the people invested hundreds of millions of €uros and created thousands and thousands and thousands of km2 of plantations.

I think that we can speak about our own countries, but if someone that is a foreigner, and even that, he never been in Spain and he never lived in Spain... sorry but it can't speak about my country and his climate :winkie: Like i've said some things from Malta... I didn't say anything more, and the things I was saying were with links, but I only said a few things because I don't know the reality of Malta, and you don't know the reality of Spain. Like I said before in 30 years we don't get any freeze EVER. I know that some year, it arrived even to 1ºC in my zone. That year the oranges were only for making juice, not for selling them on the market because they were only good with the juice, because they put sugar on it; the oranges with those temperatures get more sour.

Edited by pRoeZa*

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Alicante

Those are some palm trees planted publicly on a town of the coast of Granada:

(a very rare and strange archontophoenix that his leaves look almost identical to an Coconus Nucifera; they show the lack of water, those part is not desert as Almeria but it's not as wet as Málaga, it's semi-arid)

52769252266d8.JPG

And other ones:

5276929496bf9.JPG

527693dd067ff.JPG

5276933731336.JPG

5276942f2ec00.JPG

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Alicante

5276956cd5400.JPG

52769454c5e30.JPG

527696b959b7e.JPG

527696356010f.JPG

52769599800d0.JPG

Take note that those photos were maked on March 2013, (the hour is bad) that's after passing the 2013 winter. Look at the health of all those plants. It's not after the spring or even the summer... that's before the autumn and winter. :yay:

As you can prove by yourself, Spain has enough places where it never frosted, and with better climates than Malta in some spots. You were ensuring that none place in the Iberian Peninsula never get rid of frozen... Please the next time speak about your own country, not the others that you actually don't know :hmm:

Like i've said some days ago... I don't wanted to initiate an "climate battle" but you initiated it. You were sooo wrong in some posts, and I have to correct it because some of your posts carry to error. I only was saying that in your country you get a few times temps of 2-3 ºC... even temps between 1 and 2ºC in some very rare cases. And I even agreed to you what you said initially, that Malta is on 11a and it's the true. But where I know, I don't say more things from Malta because I don't know nothing about your country; that without counting that is a small island in the middle of the mediterranean, close to Africa, which makes in in the perfect spot for mild temperatures. But there are some plants that can grow good on some spots of "Costa Tropical" but they can't do it in Malta. Well I don't care very much about this, but I really care about your statements of Spain... which are very far from reality.

Regards :)

Edited by pRoeZa*

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SouthSeaNate

Firstly I'll just address this:

As you can prove by yourself, Spain has enough places where it never frosted, and with better climates than Malta in some spots. You were ensuring that none place in the Iberian Peninsula never get rid of frozen... Please the next time speak about your own country, not the others that you actually don't know :hmm:

Like i've said some days ago... I don't wanted to initiate an "climate battle" but you initiated it. You were sooo wrong in some posts, and I have to correct it because some of your posts carry to error. I only was saying that in your country you get a few times temps of 2-3 ºC... even temps between 1 and 2ºC in some very rare cases. And I even agreed to you what you said initially, that Malta is on 11a and it's the true. But where I know, I don't say more things from Malta because I don't know nothing about your country; that without counting that is a small island in the middle of the mediterranean, close to Africa, which makes in in the perfect spot for mild temperatures. But there are some plants that can grow good on some spots of "Costa Tropical" but they can't do it in Malta. Well I don't care very much about this, but I really care about your statements of Spain... which are very far from reality.

Regards :)

Actually YOU initiated all of this by claiming that Malta did not have a zone 11a climate, YOU were the one that stated things that were untrue about Malta. I didn't mention anything about Spain until YOU started making claims & generalisations about Malta. So please practice what you preach :interesting:

Also please tell me about the plants that can be grown in southern Spain, that can't be grown in Malta?? :bemused:

Now onto your other points...

Many of the plants & palms you mention can take frost for short duration, they grow in places like southern California & Florida for instance where they may get the odd light frost, so to say that is proof of never having had a frost is incorrect... Also all those palms in your photos can be grown elsewhere in Europe... Almeria has a record low of 0.1C & it is probably the only place on mainland Europe to have never dropped below freezing.

Even Mangoes can actually take frost, while the flowers fruit can be killed by cold temperatures, the actual plants can take short periods of below freezing temperatures, even as low as -4C if mature. Mangoes can be grown in Malta but also they grow them in parts of southern California...

Yes the far southern coastal parts of Spain have a great climate, no one is denying that, but there are other areas in Europe with just as good climates. And one does not have to reside in a certain country to know the climate, yes there is plently of dubious information on the internet, but climate info from official sources can always be found too...

Anyway what does any of this matter, we can grow what we can grow...Take a chill pill & just enjoy your wonderful climate :greenthumb:

Edited by SouthSeaNate

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Phoenikakias

I drove by Almunecar some years ago and I saw a small Dypsis lutescens growing on a roadside. It did not look to me like thriving; healthy yes, surviving yes, but not thriving or exploding with growth. It was April btw.

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Alicante

BTW anyone knows the name of this palm ?

5276942f2ec00.JPG

527694410dc8d.JPG

527693f2452ee.JPG

And what kind of palm is this one ?? His leaves look almost identical to the Alexandrae ones; I've only seen very few of them in my zone with those strange "sticks" getting out from the trunk... ¿?

5276950c0a5cf.JPG

All the ones from my zone and like this others from the same place, are bigger, skinnier and they don't have those weird "sticks":

527696356010f.JPG

Are they different archontophoenix, right? :hmm:

Edited by pRoeZa*

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empireo22

Proeza,

The first 3 pictures are of a princess palm/hurricane palm Dictyosperma album.....the 4th picture is a spindle palm hyophorbe verschaffleti....there is also a spindle behind the arbicola in the first pic......they are in Valencia? looks good. thanks for sharing

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Phoenikakias

If so how come I have not seen a single Bismarckia in Monaco, Menton or the Italian Riviera? And if the air humidity during the (mild?) winter is prohibitively high, how come then that I have not encountered a single Ptychosperma or Dictyosperma?

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