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smithgn

Butia x Parajubaea Cocoides

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gilles06

What is the list avaibility today? something new?

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Mandrew968

The odorata/capitata is the same thing. I think Patric calls odorata, capitata, basically - so we have the same mother for that plant.

More broadly, I think it's about what he has access to, of sufficient maturity. He's working on some new crosses that are in a stand around the corner in Concord, NOT on Dick's old property. So perhaps in a couple of years there will be yet more interesting seedlings to try based on that.

Odorata and capitata are NOT the same palm--people might use both names to describe what used to be capitata, and is now named odorata, but scientifically the two palms are distinct--the common palm all around is odorata--the real capitata is much smaller and has a different seed shape.

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smithgn

^ Alright, what the hell...

As if I wasn't confused enough already Lol. So are all of those Butias in my neighborhood and throughout the southeast capitatas or odoratas? Name wise they're the same, but... Ahhh, I give up :indifferent:

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Alicehunter2000

odorata .....even though most people still call them capita

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Ben in Norcal

The odorata/capitata is the same thing. I think Patric calls odorata, capitata, basically - so we have the same mother for that plant.

More broadly, I think it's about what he has access to, of sufficient maturity. He's working on some new crosses that are in a stand around the corner in Concord, NOT on Dick's old property. So perhaps in a couple of years there will be yet more interesting seedlings to try based on that.

Odorata and capitata are NOT the same palm--people might use both names to describe what used to be capitata, and is now named odorata, but scientifically the two palms are distinct--the common palm all around is odorata--the real capitata is much smaller and has a different seed shape.

Sorry, but I didn't say they are the same species. I said what Patric calls a capitata is an odorata, i.e. Patric (not me) refers to them interchangeably.

Just to clarify.

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Darold Petty

Nick, I don't believe that the true Butia capitata has been introduced to horticulture. This name change occurred in 2010 with the publication of "Brazilian Flora" by Harri Lorenzi et al. Certainly, all the Butia palms with trunk in the USA or western Europe are now B. odorata. :)

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Josh-O

Nick, I don't believe that the true Butia capitata has been introduced to horticulture. This name change occurred in 2010 with the publication of "Brazilian Flora" by Harri Lorenzi et al. Certainly, all the Butia palms with trunk in the USA or western Europe are now B. odorata. :)

Darold, I'm kinda sad to morn the loss of my butia capitata..lol

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smithgn

I see. Darold, thanks for the info as well- I learn something new every day when It comes to this hobby!

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sashaeffer

Scott, that would be great to see some pictures when your palm arrives.

cheers!!

Josh-O

As promised here are some pics of the Yatay x Queen that just arrived from Patric. Roots were coming out the bottom so couldn't get it to stand up for picture when it first came. Planted it in small Monrovia pot I had and anxious to see how it does for growth speed.

Always nice seeing this arrive at your door......another palm

post-9928-0-95292100-1418068633_thumb.jp

Grow pot was stuffed full of roots...

post-9928-0-02045900-1418068683_thumb.jp

Potted up! When repotting most palms I don't go overboard in pot size.

post-9928-0-33752600-1418068783_thumb.jp

I did email Patric asking culture it was getting there as far as climate and watering habits to ensure it stays happy for the duration of winter.

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smithgn

It's exciting when seeing an oblong(ish) box outside your door, that's for sure! Nice character leaves already showing. Do you have any mule palms? It'll be interesting to see if there are any differences between a mule and this. From what I know, Yatays have a different color at the leaf bases? Is this correct?

Obviously, you plan on keeping this guy indoors for the winter but are there any plans of possibly putting it in ground?

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sashaeffer

Yes, I do have a 3 gallon Mule from Eric and Mule palm nursery. I got it late in the season though so it's in my green house. The two palms do look similar though but I'm sure it's the "queen" part. For now this new one will stay inside the house since I transplanted it but will be really anxious to see how it grows in 2015

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Mandrew968

Nick, I don't believe that the true Butia capitata has been introduced to horticulture. This name change occurred in 2010 with the publication of "Brazilian Flora" by Harri Lorenzi et al. Certainly, all the Butia palms with trunk in the USA or western Europe are now B. odorata. :)

Darold, I'm kinda sad to morn the loss of my butia capitata..lol

Looks like your Butia got capitata'd :winkie:

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Josh-O

Scott, that would be great to see some pictures when your palm arrives.

cheers!!

Josh-O

As promised here are some pics of the Yatay x Queen that just arrived from Patric. Roots were coming out the bottom so couldn't get it to stand up for picture when it first came. Planted it in small Monrovia pot I had and anxious to see how it does for growth speed.

Always nice seeing this arrive at your door......another palm

attachicon.gifYatay x Queen Palm 001.JPG

Grow pot was stuffed full of roots...

attachicon.gifYatay x Queen Palm 002.JPG

Potted up! When repotting most palms I don't go overboard in pot size.

attachicon.gifYatay x Queen Palm 007.JPG

I did email Patric asking culture it was getting there as far as climate and watering habits to ensure it stays happy for the duration of winter.

Scott, you should put that right into a 15 gal pot. It's going to want to put out some roots. I did that last year with the same cross and they are now fully rooted out and 4' tall with all pinnate leaves.

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sashaeffer

Well....I have to keep it inside the living room until spring so a 15 gallon won't work. Now, if it shows where it's been filling the 1 gallon pot it's in then I will probably buy a 20 gallon tub and plant it in there. They are cheap and have handles on the sides so makes moving them in garage a lot easier in the winter.

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Josh-O

Now that's a good idea :winkie:​ Are you growing any copernicia??

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sashaeffer

No, don't have any of those at all.

I've been on a tropical palm kick as of late. Have these 4 coming from Redland Nursery next week.

Pinanga coronata ‘Blunt’ 4" Tall Tube $15.00 each
Pinanga philippinensis 3G / 10" $30.00 each

Chambeyronia Hookeri 4" tube/tall $15
Chambeyronia Macrocarpa 4" tube/Tall $15

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smithgn

Wowsa! Tropical, indeed. What will you do once they start getting very large? Does your long term plan include putting all of these that you keep inside, outside once they reach a certain size?

If you ever do need a copernicia (alba), I know a place to get it for a decent price. I bought two of them from a vendor in central Florida.

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sashaeffer

Lucky for me I have some tall ceilings in my house but I know that won't last forever. I do have some ideas on where they can go when that times comes. I tend to like King palms as well since they grow really fast and don't mind being inside the house.

PM me the info on the source you have for the palms...and don't forget to let me know if you ever decide to ships smaller sizes.

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8B palms

So I have several of Patric's hybrids, they always arrive incredibly packaged. I have 2 Jubaea x Syagrus one is still small and in a small pot. The other is planted in the ground is almost 9 feet tall in 3 years from 3 strap leaves. I also have a Jubaea x Butia, Bujubyagrus and Bujubia x Jubaea. This last hybrid will be planted out in the spring. I live in a solid 8B most winters, new maps have it as 9A, but I trust 8B better. So far this winter I have seen several nights in the upper 20's and one night of 24oF. My Jubaea x Syagrus showed no signs of any issues.

So I am curious to get peoples opinions between Butia odorata x parajubaea cocoides (Bo x Pc) and Butia paraguayensis x Parajubaea cocoides (Bp x Pc), with respect to cold hardiness. From what I can determine the Bp x Pc is less rigid in frond detail and more coco like, but would its ultimate cold hardiness be less. I'd be curious to get other growers experiences as I am trying to decide which one would be the pest fit for my zone.

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Alicehunter2000

Yes...I am in similar boat and would like to know the same. On paper BP is an overall smaller palm.

Also, would like to know the differences between the various Parajubea sp.

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Alicehunter2000

Have a friend that claims some French growers think sunkha is more cold hardy.

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Alberto

Have a friend that claims some French growers think sunkha is more cold hardy.

I also think P. sunkha is cold hardier then P. torallyi var torallyi

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Palm crazy

Have a friend that claims some French growers think sunkha is more cold hardy.

I also think P. sunkha is cold hardier then P. torallyi var torallyi

Thats what I've read and been told on the PNW forum.

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Alicehunter2000

P. torallyi..least hardy

P. sunkha..medium hardy

P. cocoides.....most hardy

Is this correct?

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ghar41

My experience here has been sunkha most freeze hardy, torallyi a close second and cocoides a distant third.

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Kailua_Krish

Ive also heard P. sunkha is the most but I only have experience with it.

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Alicehunter2000

P. cocoides...least hardy

P. torallyi......medium hardy

P. sunkha.....most hardy

So Patrick's hybrids are Butia x least hardy Parajubea. ...?

Or does he have access and cross torallyi and sunkha as well?

Krishna.....your growing P. sunkha?

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Ben in Norcal

I believe Patric's are all cocoides. I think it's a matter of what is old enough to be providing pollen around here (e.g. Dick's tree, maybe Darold's old tree ??? - both of which are/were cocoides.)

With the Butia in it, they are still pretty bulletproof up where he lives even...which was his original hybridizing goal, I think.

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Kailua_Krish

P. cocoides...least hardy

P. torallyi......medium hardy

P. sunkha.....most hardy

So Patrick's hybrids are Butia x least hardy Parajubea. ...?

Or does he have access and cross torallyi and sunkha as well?

Krishna.....your growing P. sunkha?

Yeah, Ive had it for 4 or 5 years now, started from 2 strap leaves. Slow growing (doesn't grow much during the hot months) but does well, tops of the leaves are just now reaching about 5.5 ft and it seems to be picking up speed. Seems to be about as hardy as a queen palm for me. Never any problems with it! People kept doubting it would survive long term for me but at this point I can't see what will kill it as it survived 2010 and the extremely rainy summers we've had since then.

FWIW I planted it slightly raised in a sand/limestone/granite mix but Im sure by this point its roots have gone away from this. It is planted near some concrete structures so it may be taking advantage of the soil changes around it.

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Xhoniwaters1

My personal experience with sunkah is that they are more hardy than a standard queen. After the blast of last year into very low 20's it had a spear pull but the rest of the foliage seemed to have very little damage. Came back growing again in the spring. I had a canvas grill cover over it the coldest night but no supplemental heat and really think it didn't help much because the wind was howling that night and is in the most exposed area of the yard. Pretty much all of the queens around here died after last winter. I had one 5ft queen in a sheltered area surprise me and come back from complete defoliation and spear death.

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Josh76

So Patrick's hybrids are Butia x least hardy Parajubea. ...?

He told me that he does have Butia eriospatha x Parajubaea sunkha seedlings but they're not big enough to sell yet... :yay:

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ghar41

Oh great, glad to hear he has had success with sunkha pollen. It took him awhile to find a receptive flower for sunkha.

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smithgn

P. cocoides...least hardy

P. torallyi......medium hardy

P. sunkha.....most hardy

So Patrick's hybrids are Butia x least hardy Parajubea. ...?

Or does he have access and cross torallyi and sunkha as well?

Krishna.....your growing P. sunkha?

From what I've read around, by themselves Torallyi is the most cold hardy head and shoulders above the rest. I've read good things about sunkha's cold tolerance and then of course cocoides is almost unanimously the least cold hardy.

BUT...

With hybrids, it's pretty common to note that the palm usually takes after the female- yet its characterstics and look can vary drastically from one palm hybrid to another, even if it's the same parents. Is there a possibility that this could be the same rule of thumb for cold hardiness in these hybrids? Hopefully they're consistent all over the board...

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tank

I had P. sunkha in the ground in Gainesville for about 3 years, although it really hasn't been tested. Probably has only gone down to 25F over that time. It is also planted in a well drained raised bed.

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Sandy Loam

Perhaps, in part, Patric has been using parajubaea cocoides in his hybrids because it has a slimmer trunk than parajubaea sunkha or parajubaea torallyi v. torallyi (especially thick trunk) and its fronds are a bit more coconutty-looking. It also gets quite tall as opposed to "stout", based on the photos I've seen. I always assumed that cocoides fronds were less frost-hardy because they had a more tropical look. From what I have read and gleaned, we can grow parajubaea sunka and torallyi in my region of northern Florida, but cocoides would not survive our occasional overnight freezes.

I am amazed by how popular Patric's hybrids seem to be on PalmTalk, even in regions where you don't need to plant anything cold-hardy at all. If l lived in coastal Orange County, CA (like Josh-O), I would be able to grow almost anything except the true humidity-loving palms like cocos nucifera.

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Ben in Norcal

It's hard to beat the growth rate of these hybrids, wherever you live!

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Alberto

My experience here has been sunkha most freeze hardy, torallyi a close second and cocoides a distant third.

My experience also with sunkha and Parajubaea tor tor.

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Alberto

So Patrick's hybrids are Butia x least hardy Parajubea. ...?

He told me that he does have Butia eriospatha x Parajubaea sunkha seedlings but they're not big enough to sell yet... :yay:

INTERESTING!!!

I tried P. sunkha pollen on some of my Butia eriospatha but they didn´t form fruits. I have to try again! :hmm:

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buffy

My experience with Butia X Parajubaea is poor. Mine gets bad leaf damage from heavy frost and defoliates under 25F. It seems like it has received none of the hardiness from the mother. The form is very much a mixture of the two. Again, hybrids are a mixed bag. Some specimens are great, some suck. And that's in the same set of seeds. My Jubaea X Queen is a relative snail, while my Yatay X Queen is a rocket. None of them like wet cold in the teens. Patric's Jubutygrus was a turd (not because of him), but Tim's Jubutygruses have been pretty great. You just can't tell until you get them in the dirt and let them run.

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Kailua_Krish

Buffy, how large is yours? Mine did the same thing for 3 years then has suddenly decided to live and grow quickly. For some reason the fronds have become hardier too. No idea why this has happened with this cross and not the BxS.

My JxS is also finally picking up speed, it has been nowhere near as fast as those posted by others on here.

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