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Bismarckia nobilis ( Dubrovnik )

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mnorell

I can add from first-hand experience that Bismarckia tolerates cold, wet winters and significant freezing events...down to a point. I maintained a silver Bizzie in my garden in Natchez, Mississippi for approx. five years. That is a zone 9a location in the humid southern USA with average January temps similar to the Santa Cruz area (around 40F min/ 60F max), though due to the highly changeable weather conditions in the Gulf states of the USA, I would estimate that most days in January are somewhere around 36/54 (3C/12C) punctuated by occasional, usually brief, episodes up to about 60F/80F. This makes it a roller-coaster, but in most years it is very chilly most of the time from December through February, a la Central and Northern California. But it differs in usually having one or two lengthy freezes to about 23F and lasting about 12 hours each, sometimes a day or more with highs just above freezing. The Bismarckia would stop growing in December and foliage would burn about where a Washingtonia robusta does, say 23-24F. In March, warm weather usually comes quickly and as I remember the Bismarckia would start into growth in May. I had it on the north side of the house with significant shade, so it would have made better progress in a south-facing, sunny spot with reflected heat. But I knew it would be temporary so this wasn't a major concern. It was taken out by the 2009/2010 winter with three days below freezing and lows in the upper teens. But I know it will survive several months of chilly, wet weather IF it has a quick onset of heat in spring and a long, hot growing season. I think it stands a good chance in your part of Europe barring a 1985-style crusher of a winter...which will surely come again.

And as a matter of comparison in re the coastal Central California climate, as I think he forgot to clarify, Axel's posted temperatures for his location in Santa Cruz were for this past winter only, and not a long-term average. This past winter was the warmest ever recorded in California, so those numbers are likely far from the norm. Axel, if your weather station has been in operation for any length of time, do you have long-term averages you can post for your garden? That may make for a better comparison of your Bismarckias vs. those in Europe and elsewhere.

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Alicehunter2000

I agree with Mike's assessment. The south facing location might have been the difference between losing his palm or not. I have found Bizmarkia to be more cold hardy than Queen palms in my area....and almost as fast. I however, think that overhead tree canopy is a net plus. Although Bizzy's look their best in full sun in the summer....canopy will provide much needed frost protection during the winter resulting in a better looking and much less damaged palm.

One critical thing I would also add is that Bizmarkia is DRASTICALLY less cold hardy in containers and pots. The roots are very sensitive to below freezing temps. A minor freeze will result in the death of the palm in a pot.

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Brahea Axel

I can add from first-hand experience that Bismarckia tolerates cold, wet winters and significant freezing events...down to a point. I maintained a silver Bizzie in my garden in Natchez, Mississippi for approx. five years. That is a zone 9a location in the humid southern USA with average January temps similar to the Santa Cruz area (around 40F min/ 60F max), though due to the highly changeable weather conditions in the Gulf states of the USA, I would estimate that most days in January are somewhere around 36/54 (3C/12C) punctuated by occasional, usually brief, episodes up to about 60F/80F. This makes it a roller-coaster, but in most years it is very chilly most of the time from December through February, a la Central and Northern California. But it differs in usually having one or two lengthy freezes to about 23F and lasting about 12 hours each, sometimes a day or more with highs just above freezing. The Bismarckia would stop growing in December and foliage would burn about where a Washingtonia robusta does, say 23-24F. In March, warm weather usually comes quickly and as I remember the Bismarckia would start into growth in May. I had it on the north side of the house with significant shade, so it would have made better progress in a south-facing, sunny spot with reflected heat. But I knew it would be temporary so this wasn't a major concern. It was taken out by the 2009/2010 winter with three days below freezing and lows in the upper teens. But I know it will survive several months of chilly, wet weather IF it has a quick onset of heat in spring and a long, hot growing season. I think it stands a good chance in your part of Europe barring a 1985-style crusher of a winter...which will surely come again.

And as a matter of comparison in re the coastal Central California climate, as I think he forgot to clarify, Axel's posted temperatures for his location in Santa Cruz were for this past winter only, and not a long-term average. This past winter was the warmest ever recorded in California, so those numbers are likely far from the norm. Axel, if your weather station has been in operation for any length of time, do you have long-term averages you can post for your garden? That may make for a better comparison of your Bismarckias vs. those in Europe and elsewhere.

The temps I posted were for Winter 2013/14, but since I've put up my weather station, every single year my Winter average for December and January was 68F. That's because my weather station sits in a southwest facing bowl - it's usually 5-10F warmer during the day on average than surrounding locations, and 2-5F colder at night as well. My upper garden is more typical of Coastal Central California with an average of 61F for both December and January, but night time is much milder too, hence why I can grow things like pritchardia, licuala, and many other palms that thrive in cool but mild climates.

I don't think the ocean currents are really the principal reason why Europe supports palms at higher latitudes than North America.

Western Europe is mostly water from the North pole down towards England. Winter airflow is typically from the Northwest to the Southeast over the ocean, and reverses over continental masses under arctic high pressure. The Winter weather dance in Europe is characterized by a battle between the Atlantic low and the Siberian high, hence most of Eastern Europe gets very cold Winters. Of course, Western Europe also has the jet stream, but that becomes a secondary influence as you move East.

The Alps, with peaks higher than 3,000 meters stop most of the Siberian arctic outbreaks from reaching Southwestern Europe. This is the exact reason why the Mediterranean benefits from a mild climate. It has little to do with the oceanic currents. The jet stream provides an amazing amount of heat for Western Europe which fuels gloomy wet Winters especially for the Netherlands. In contrast, in the US, there is nothing but a few bumps between Florida and the North Pole. Fronts can travel unimpeded down the plains. Hence guys at 35N on the East coast can barely grow what others above 45N can grow in some places in Europe. The rockies and Sierra keeps that stuff from spilling out West, hence California's very mild climate. Oregon is also victim of topology, with most of the Southern half of the State being at high elevation so it's cold in the Winter and the cold air is trapped North of California. The two main river valleys in the Pacific Northwest are funnels for the cold air to come down the Cascades, so the PNW doesn't have that much protection.

Contrary to what some poster claimed in a previous post above, the Canary islands and Southern California do have a lot in common. Both feature the influence from downslope desert winds. Winter temps in the Canary Islands are often influenced by downslope winds out of the Sahara desert, bringing the Winter averages in places like Tenerife up by 5-10F. It's not unusual to have a Winter day at almost 30C with dry winds out of the Sahara. I've been there in December and have experienced these winds. Those winds were such a delight after spending weeks in dark moldy palmless rainy gloom in Northern Europe. Southern California routinely gets hot Santa Ana winds coming out of the upper desert and barreling down the Mountains into the LA basin. This influence alone raises the Winter averages from 60F to 68F for most locations. The places in Southern California with the least Santa Ana influence (for example Newport Harbor) has an official Winter high of only 64F, compared to 61F for Santa Cruz. That's only 3F difference (barely over 1C) for a 400 miles stretch covering 3 degrees of latitude. That gives you an idea of the magnitude of the influence of the Santa Ana winds on Winter averages.

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cheshirepalms

I can add from first-hand experience that Bismarckia tolerates cold, wet winters and significant freezing events...down to a point. I maintained a silver Bizzie in my garden in Natchez, Mississippi for approx. five years. That is a zone 9a location in the humid southern USA with average January temps similar to the Santa Cruz area (around 40F min/ 60F max), though due to the highly changeable weather conditions in the Gulf states of the USA, I would estimate that most days in January are somewhere around 36/54 (3C/12C) punctuated by occasional, usually brief, episodes up to about 60F/80F. This makes it a roller-coaster, but in most years it is very chilly most of the time from December through February, a la Central and Northern California. But it differs in usually having one or two lengthy freezes to about 23F and lasting about 12 hours each, sometimes a day or more with highs just above freezing. The Bismarckia would stop growing in December and foliage would burn about where a Washingtonia robusta does, say 23-24F. In March, warm weather usually comes quickly and as I remember the Bismarckia would start into growth in May. I had it on the north side of the house with significant shade, so it would have made better progress in a south-facing, sunny spot with reflected heat. But I knew it would be temporary so this wasn't a major concern. It was taken out by the 2009/2010 winter with three days below freezing and lows in the upper teens. But I know it will survive several months of chilly, wet weather IF it has a quick onset of heat in spring and a long, hot growing season. I think it stands a good chance in your part of Europe barring a 1985-style crusher of a winter...which will surely come again.

And as a matter of comparison in re the coastal Central California climate, as I think he forgot to clarify, Axel's posted temperatures for his location in Santa Cruz were for this past winter only, and not a long-term average. This past winter was the warmest ever recorded in California, so those numbers are likely far from the norm. Axel, if your weather station has been in operation for any length of time, do you have long-term averages you can post for your garden? That may make for a better comparison of your Bismarckias vs. those in Europe and elsewhere.

The temps I posted were for Winter 2013/14, but since I've put up my weather station, every single year my Winter average for December and January was 68F. That's because my weather station sits in a southwest facing bowl - it's usually 5-10F warmer during the day on average than surrounding locations, and 2-5F colder at night as well. My upper garden is more typical of Coastal Central California with an average of 61F for both December and January, but night time is much milder too, hence why I can grow things like pritchardia, licuala, and many other palms that thrive in cool but mild climates.

I don't think the ocean currents are really the principal reason why Europe supports palms at higher latitudes than North America.

Western Europe is mostly water from the North pole down towards England. Winter airflow is typically from the Northwest to the Southeast over the ocean, and reverses over continental masses under arctic high pressure. The Winter weather dance in Europe is characterized by a battle between the Atlantic low and the Siberian high, hence most of Eastern Europe gets very cold Winters. Of course, Western Europe also has the jet stream, but that becomes a secondary influence as you move East.

The Alps, with peaks higher than 3,000 meters stop most of the Siberian arctic outbreaks from reaching Southwestern Europe. This is the exact reason why the Mediterranean benefits from a mild climate. It has little to do with the oceanic currents. The jet stream provides an amazing amount of heat for Western Europe which fuels gloomy wet Winters especially for the Netherlands. In contrast, in the US, there is nothing but a few bumps between Florida and the North Pole. Fronts can travel unimpeded down the plains. Hence guys at 35N on the East coast can barely grow what others above 45N can grow in some places in Europe. The rockies and Sierra keeps that stuff from spilling out West, hence California's very mild climate. Oregon is also victim of topology, with most of the Southern half of the State being at high elevation so it's cold in the Winter and the cold air is trapped North of California. The two main river valleys in the Pacific Northwest are funnels for the cold air to come down the Cascades, so the PNW doesn't have that much protection.

Contrary to what some poster claimed in a previous post above, the Canary islands and Southern California do have a lot in common. Both feature the influence from downslope desert winds. Winter temps in the Canary Islands are often influenced by downslope winds out of the Sahara desert, bringing the Winter averages in places like Tenerife up by 5-10F. It's not unusual to have a Winter day at almost 30C with dry winds out of the Sahara. I've been there in December and have experienced these winds. Those winds were such a delight after spending weeks in dark moldy palmless rainy gloom in Northern Europe. Southern California routinely gets hot Santa Ana winds coming out of the upper desert and barreling down the Mountains into the LA basin. This influence alone raises the Winter averages from 60F to 68F for most locations. The places in Southern California with the least Santa Ana influence (for example Newport Harbor) has an official Winter high of only 64F, compared to 61F for Santa Cruz. That's only 3F difference (barely over 1C) for a 400 miles stretch covering 3 degrees of latitude. That gives you an idea of the magnitude of the influence of the Santa Ana winds on Winter averages.

I have to say I disagree with why England and in particular its Western coasts are so mild for their latitude when compared with the same latitude in North America. The ocean currents are the main reason by far, with the north Atlantic drift bathing western coasts with relatively mild water, around 6-10c on average in January in the south west. The same process suppresses temperatures in summer though. The Jet stream does play a huge part, but when its absent and the UK gets hit with arctic air, its fundamentally the sea temperatures which moderate any real cold and make it so much milder than North America at similar latitudes, approx 10c higher on average. This is a pretty accurate zone map for the UK and January average mean temperatures.

uk_zonemap.gif

MeanTemp_Average_1981-2010_1.gif

Edited by cheshirepalms

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Brahea Axel

I can add from first-hand experience that Bismarckia tolerates cold, wet winters and significant freezing events...down to a point. I maintained a silver Bizzie in my garden in Natchez, Mississippi for approx. five years. That is a zone 9a location in the humid southern USA with average January temps similar to the Santa Cruz area (around 40F min/ 60F max), though due to the highly changeable weather conditions in the Gulf states of the USA, I would estimate that most days in January are somewhere around 36/54 (3C/12C) punctuated by occasional, usually brief, episodes up to about 60F/80F. This makes it a roller-coaster, but in most years it is very chilly most of the time from December through February, a la Central and Northern California. But it differs in usually having one or two lengthy freezes to about 23F and lasting about 12 hours each, sometimes a day or more with highs just above freezing. The Bismarckia would stop growing in December and foliage would burn about where a Washingtonia robusta does, say 23-24F. In March, warm weather usually comes quickly and as I remember the Bismarckia would start into growth in May. I had it on the north side of the house with significant shade, so it would have made better progress in a south-facing, sunny spot with reflected heat. But I knew it would be temporary so this wasn't a major concern. It was taken out by the 2009/2010 winter with three days below freezing and lows in the upper teens. But I know it will survive several months of chilly, wet weather IF it has a quick onset of heat in spring and a long, hot growing season. I think it stands a good chance in your part of Europe barring a 1985-style crusher of a winter...which will surely come again.

And as a matter of comparison in re the coastal Central California climate, as I think he forgot to clarify, Axel's posted temperatures for his location in Santa Cruz were for this past winter only, and not a long-term average. This past winter was the warmest ever recorded in California, so those numbers are likely far from the norm. Axel, if your weather station has been in operation for any length of time, do you have long-term averages you can post for your garden? That may make for a better comparison of your Bismarckias vs. those in Europe and elsewhere.

The temps I posted were for Winter 2013/14, but since I've put up my weather station, every single year my Winter average for December and January was 68F. That's because my weather station sits in a southwest facing bowl - it's usually 5-10F warmer during the day on average than surrounding locations, and 2-5F colder at night as well. My upper garden is more typical of Coastal Central California with an average of 61F for both December and January, but night time is much milder too, hence why I can grow things like pritchardia, licuala, and many other palms that thrive in cool but mild climates.

I don't think the ocean currents are really the principal reason why Europe supports palms at higher latitudes than North America.

Western Europe is mostly water from the North pole down towards England. Winter airflow is typically from the Northwest to the Southeast over the ocean, and reverses over continental masses under arctic high pressure. The Winter weather dance in Europe is characterized by a battle between the Atlantic low and the Siberian high, hence most of Eastern Europe gets very cold Winters. Of course, Western Europe also has the jet stream, but that becomes a secondary influence as you move East.

The Alps, with peaks higher than 3,000 meters stop most of the Siberian arctic outbreaks from reaching Southwestern Europe. This is the exact reason why the Mediterranean benefits from a mild climate. It has little to do with the oceanic currents. The jet stream provides an amazing amount of heat for Western Europe which fuels gloomy wet Winters especially for the Netherlands. In contrast, in the US, there is nothing but a few bumps between Florida and the North Pole. Fronts can travel unimpeded down the plains. Hence guys at 35N on the East coast can barely grow what others above 45N can grow in some places in Europe. The rockies and Sierra keeps that stuff from spilling out West, hence California's very mild climate. Oregon is also victim of topology, with most of the Southern half of the State being at high elevation so it's cold in the Winter and the cold air is trapped North of California. The two main river valleys in the Pacific Northwest are funnels for the cold air to come down the Cascades, so the PNW doesn't have that much protection.

Contrary to what some poster claimed in a previous post above, the Canary islands and Southern California do have a lot in common. Both feature the influence from downslope desert winds. Winter temps in the Canary Islands are often influenced by downslope winds out of the Sahara desert, bringing the Winter averages in places like Tenerife up by 5-10F. It's not unusual to have a Winter day at almost 30C with dry winds out of the Sahara. I've been there in December and have experienced these winds. Those winds were such a delight after spending weeks in dark moldy palmless rainy gloom in Northern Europe. Southern California routinely gets hot Santa Ana winds coming out of the upper desert and barreling down the Mountains into the LA basin. This influence alone raises the Winter averages from 60F to 68F for most locations. The places in Southern California with the least Santa Ana influence (for example Newport Harbor) has an official Winter high of only 64F, compared to 61F for Santa Cruz. That's only 3F difference (barely over 1C) for a 400 miles stretch covering 3 degrees of latitude. That gives you an idea of the magnitude of the influence of the Santa Ana winds on Winter averages.

I have to say I disagree with why England and in particular its Western coasts are so mild for their latitude when compared with the same latitude in North America. The ocean currents are the main reason by far, with the north Atlantic drift bathing western coasts with relatively mild water, around 6-10c on average in January in the south west. The same process suppresses temperatures in summer though. The Jet stream does play a huge part, but when its absent and the UK gets hit with arctic air, its fundamentally the sea temperatures which moderate any real cold and make it so much milder than North America at similar latitudes, approx 10c higher on average. This is a pretty accurate zone map for the UK and January average mean temperatures.

uk_zonemap.gif

MeanTemp_Average_1981-2010_1.gif

Of course England is influenced by the jet stream. But the bigger reason for the lack of real extremes in England is that there's no landmass to the northwest of you, so you're not downstream from a continental mass like the Eastern US.

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richnorm

Not true. Gulf stream is by far the major factor.

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LJG

Not true. Gulf stream is by far the major factor.

Agreed. Not sure how it could be argued it isn't. Here in the US we saw what happens when the Jet Stream drops just a little amount last winter. "Polar Vortex".

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Brahea Axel

Not true. Gulf stream is by far the major factor.

Agreed. Not sure how it could be argued it isn't. Here in the US we saw what happens when the Jet Stream drops just a little amount last winter. "Polar Vortex".

I think we're arguing about semantics. I was trying to highlight the differences between North America and Europe, not so much as to what is more or less important. Which factor is more or less important depends on which part of Europe or the US you are talking about.

When comparing the Eastern United States and Western Europe, the predominant difference in climate is due to the fact that the Eastern United States has a large continental mass upstream to the North and Northwest where it's almost flat as a pancake all the way to the North pole with miles and miles of Siberian-like landmass to build up cold air and send it towards the Southwest, whereas Western Europe has open ocean to the North and to the Northwest. The jet stream actually runs along both of those coasts.

When comparing Western US to Western Europe, then clearly the jet stream is by far the biggest factor influencing the difference. See Wikipedia: "the January average in Brønnøysund, Norway,[3] is almost 15 °C warmer than the January average in Nome, Alaska,[4] both towns are situated upwind on the west coast of the continents at 65°N". The Japanese current is quite weak in comparison to the jet stream, and the waters along the US West Coast are significantly colder than in Europe. Of course that's going to make a difference. The islands in ireland that stick into the warm Gulf stream are much warmer (9b to 10a) than the islands off Vancouver (8b to 9a).

When comparing Texas to the Northern Mediterranean, the big difference is the Alps. There is nothing between the North pole and Texas, but there is a massive mountain range running East West that protects countries like Southeast France, Monaco, Italy from arctic outbreaks.

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cheshirepalms

Not true. Gulf stream is by far the major factor.

Agreed. Not sure how it could be argued it isn't. Here in the US we saw what happens when the Jet Stream drops just a little amount last winter. "Polar Vortex".

I think we're arguing about semantics. I was trying to highlight the differences between North America and Europe, not so much as to what is more or less important. Which factor is more or less important depends on which part of Europe or the US you are talking about.

When comparing the Eastern United States and Western Europe, the predominant difference in climate is due to the fact that the Eastern United States has a large continental mass upstream to the North and Northwest where it's almost flat as a pancake all the way to the North pole with miles and miles of Siberian-like landmass to build up cold air and send it towards the Southwest, whereas Western Europe has open ocean to the North and to the Northwest. The jet stream actually runs along both of those coasts.

When comparing Western US to Western Europe, then clearly the jet stream is by far the biggest factor influencing the difference. See Wikipedia: "the January average in Brønnøysund, Norway,[3] is almost 15 °C warmer than the January average in Nome, Alaska,[4] both towns are situated upwind on the west coast of the continents at 65°N". The Japanese current is quite weak in comparison to the jet stream, and the waters along the US West Coast are significantly colder than in Europe. Of course that's going to make a difference. The islands in ireland that stick into the warm Gulf stream are much warmer (9b to 10a) than the islands off Vancouver (8b to 9a).

When comparing Texas to the Northern Mediterranean, the big difference is the Alps. There is nothing between the North pole and Texas, but there is a massive mountain range running East West that protects countries like Southeast France, Monaco, Italy from arctic outbreaks.

I think you may be confusing the Jet stream and Gulf stream. The jet stream is a fast moving ribbon of air at altitude that influences weather west to east around the world in temperate latitudes. It influences depressions and weather patterns and where they occur. The gulf stream is an ocean current which bring warm waters from the Caribbean into the northwest Atlantic ocean. An extension of this "The north Atlantic drift" brings these warm currents up the western side of the UK, right up to the western Isles in Scotland at around 58 degrees north. Look how mild they are on the January mean map for the UK. The areas with the coldest temperatures in England and Scotland are in the east furthest away from the influence of the mild sea. There are other factors for sure but this by far is the main one.

Edited by cheshirepalms

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Phoenikakias

Looks pretty convincing from a size perspective. But both of these look pretty trashed. Do you have some photos of what they look like at the end of Summer? If those are trashed like that at Xmas time, what do they look like by Spring? If you have a lot of Summer heat then they should recover pretty fast by end of Summer.

Problem is wind. Winters here are very windy. And these palms are on very exposed location.

Wind is a good and a bad thing.

It is good because it prevents formation of frost. But it is bad because it can make mechanical damage on the leaves of some palm trees. But because of our spring, summer and autumn heat, they recover pretty fast if they get enough water ( winds usually begin in the autumn and stop in the spring ). Summers usually have little to no wind. ( rainy summer this year was exception ).

Summers here are hot during the day and night. We can have during the night temperatures of 86+ degrees Fahrenheit sometimes . That is why cool loving palms can be a challenge here. But heat loving palms love our climate.

Still at such size (with so much woody trunk, that is), I would expect that leaves on those Bismarckia specimens are more tolerant of strong wind. At least this is my experience down here, the older and bigger the palm, the more wind resistant the leaves.

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Phoenikakias

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

Exactly! To add, there are frost free pockets on the shoreline to. Nough said.

I remember Cicas posted pics of the old medieval part of Dubrovnik. That little peninsula surrounded by water and all that concrete should be able to support all sorts of zone 10 pushes. There's no question that there is plenty of Summer heat to zone push a bismarckia and make it look good. But it takes some skills and the right nano-climate. Most of those pictures you posted suggest that wind is a far more destructive factor on a bismarckia than cold temperatures.

Cicas, I don't understand why you have a problem with the term "zone push". My garden is filled with zone pushes that can survive there because I have a good nano-climate for them in my garden, and my garden as a whole is in a favorable microclimate. The USDA has re-mapped a lot of the Santa Cruz Mountains as USDA 10a and 10b, but all that is bogus because few people have property up in these zones, it's all forest and mountains. As a whole, our entire region is best qualified as 9b. Zone pushing is what I refer to as what a few skilled gardeners can grow who know how to properly situate a palm and who are lucky enough to live in one of the thermal belts. An "In zone" palm is a plant you can hand to just about anyone anywhere in your region and it will grow no matter what.

In that context, I am certain that you will have a great bismarckia, and judging from the fact that you have it in your courtyard where it will be protected from wind and from Winter cold, it would take a natural catastrophe to kill it. I just will stick with Ante and say that a bismarckia is going to be a zone push around the 42nd parallel no matter what your microclimate is because the low Winter sun angle at that latitude is the root cause for a pretty significant increase in Winter chill accumulation. Yours will be an excellent data point for how bismarckia cope with Winter chill.

I will give you one data point from my bismarckia: I get considerable Winter chill, with Winter lows around 5-7C being the norm. I get a lot of daytime heat in the part of my garden that stays sunny in the Winter months, and last Winter, despite the cold nights, the two bismarckia I have that are in full Winter sun put on two leaves each, one in early December and one in late February. The other four bismarckia that are growing where the sun disappears in the Winter experienced zero setback from a good 600 hours of chill, but I got no growth until the sun came back to those areas. The problem with extended periods of no growth is spear rot, but three months of no growth was not enough to cause this issue here. At 42N, the sun angle is low for longer, so the period of inactivity in the Winter is longer. That's all you really need to watch out for. 4-5 months of no activity may lead to spear rot.

Totally correct, what Axel is trying to point out. Wind alone in winter usually is far more detrimental for many palms in wind swept places that any usual cold. I have a first hand experience on this issue (alas). To make things even worse, wind can be softened by planting trees as wind breakers and creating also canopy for other tender palms, BUT in the hot (in contrast to only warm), xerothermic summer in places with no ground water, such conopy providing and wind breaking trees will suck every last drop of water you intend to to use only for the palms, and while palms remain stubbornly stunted and dwarfy (no matter how much water you apply, which also usually costs dearly) other trees will acquire gigantic dimensions consuming even bigger quantities of water. It's the competition of species in the strictiest sense!

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Phoenikakias

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

Well that map is not that accurate I guess. Places like costal Cyprus, Crete and Souther Portugal have a much warmer climate then lets say Liguria or Rome. Especially close to the southern coastal areas. Also about the warmest winters in the Mediterranean are in South Eastern Spain. Much warmer in winter then Croatia.

Well amazing you can grow Bismarckia in Dubrovnik!

Alexander

Croatia is a broad term. :)

Some parts of Croatia are USDA 7.

Dalmatia is the warmest part of Croatia. And Dubrovnik area is the warmest part of Dalmatia.

Malaga area would be the warmest part of Spain if I'am not mistaken.

It is true, Malaga area of Spain is warmer than Dubrovnik area. Malaga and Dubrovnik have very similar average minimum temperatures during the year. But average maximum temperatures during winter in Malaga are higher. Although this Dubrovnik climate chartz is not completely accurate. The actual values ​​are higher.

I do not know is this Malaga chartz completely accurate, likewise.

you will know more about that. :)

Malaga, Spain

Screen_Shot002.png

Dubrovnik

Screen_Shot002.png

Dubrovnik is far from Malaga climate wise... those Malaga temps are from the airport which is inland and at higher altitude... Malaga coast is not comparable to dubrovnik... Dubrovnik is more similar to valencia for example in spain... Roystonea is an easy palm for Malaga just like CIDP can be for Dubrovnik or for me in 9b/10b northern spain.... and your place is warmer than mine in winter and summer. I would say south-East spanish coast (almuñecar, marbella, almeria) is by far the best climate along maybe some places in Greece for growing tropicals in the CONTINENTAL EUROPE... Only malta, lampedusa, Greek islands, etc would be better but not in CONTINENTAL europe..

Bismarckia is not a hard palm for you definitively as you have sun and warm even in winter but you can't grow a lot of palms that in Malaga would THRIVE...

I agree with Jaime, just try to cultivate outdoors a Hyophorbe (either in pot or in the ground), as I have seen so in Sevilla for example... or even try to cultivate and gain fruits from a Mango or an Anona, as I have seen so on the road side during the trip from Cordoba to Almunecar...

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Cikas

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

Exactly! To add, there are frost free pockets on the shoreline to. Nough said.

I remember Cicas posted pics of the old medieval part of Dubrovnik. That little peninsula surrounded by water and all that concrete should be able to support all sorts of zone 10 pushes. There's no question that there is plenty of Summer heat to zone push a bismarckia and make it look good. But it takes some skills and the right nano-climate. Most of those pictures you posted suggest that wind is a far more destructive factor on a bismarckia than cold temperatures.

Cicas, I don't understand why you have a problem with the term "zone push". My garden is filled with zone pushes that can survive there because I have a good nano-climate for them in my garden, and my garden as a whole is in a favorable microclimate. The USDA has re-mapped a lot of the Santa Cruz Mountains as USDA 10a and 10b, but all that is bogus because few people have property up in these zones, it's all forest and mountains. As a whole, our entire region is best qualified as 9b. Zone pushing is what I refer to as what a few skilled gardeners can grow who know how to properly situate a palm and who are lucky enough to live in one of the thermal belts. An "In zone" palm is a plant you can hand to just about anyone anywhere in your region and it will grow no matter what.

In that context, I am certain that you will have a great bismarckia, and judging from the fact that you have it in your courtyard where it will be protected from wind and from Winter cold, it would take a natural catastrophe to kill it. I just will stick with Ante and say that a bismarckia is going to be a zone push around the 42nd parallel no matter what your microclimate is because the low Winter sun angle at that latitude is the root cause for a pretty significant increase in Winter chill accumulation. Yours will be an excellent data point for how bismarckia cope with Winter chill.

I will give you one data point from my bismarckia: I get considerable Winter chill, with Winter lows around 5-7C being the norm. I get a lot of daytime heat in the part of my garden that stays sunny in the Winter months, and last Winter, despite the cold nights, the two bismarckia I have that are in full Winter sun put on two leaves each, one in early December and one in late February. The other four bismarckia that are growing where the sun disappears in the Winter experienced zero setback from a good 600 hours of chill, but I got no growth until the sun came back to those areas. The problem with extended periods of no growth is spear rot, but three months of no growth was not enough to cause this issue here. At 42N, the sun angle is low for longer, so the period of inactivity in the Winter is longer. That's all you really need to watch out for. 4-5 months of no activity may lead to spear rot.

Totally correct, what Axel is trying to point out. Wind alone in winter usually is far more detrimental for many palms in wind swept places that any usual cold. I have a first hand experience on this issue (alas). To make things even worse, wind can be softened by planting trees as wind breakers and creating also canopy for other tender palms, BUT in the hot (in contrast to only warm), xerothermic summer in places with no ground water, such conopy providing and wind breaking trees will suck every last drop of water you intend to to use only for the palms, and while palms remain stubbornly stunted and dwarfy (no matter how much water you apply, which also usually costs dearly) other trees will acquire gigantic dimensions consuming even bigger quantities of water. It's the competition of species in the strictiest sense!

Water is the least problem here. We have alot of ground water. And I mean literally a lot. All our water that we use for drinking and all other purposes, is our own clear ground water.

Extracted by special engines from the ground and natural springs we have here to the special underground tanks. From there to our homes. We can use as much water as we want for only ( 200-300 kunas ) 42-50 US dollars every 6 months.

Our place got the name Trsteno ( Cannosa on latin ) by Romans 1500 years ago. Because all this area was originally ( 1500 years ago ) coverd with reed, bulrush and simmilar plants.

Canna means reed on latin. Trstika is reed on croatian language

So Canna= Cannosa Trstika= Trsteno our literally on english land of reed.

We have natural streams and waterfall that flows into the sea. So I do not need to worry about water.

So far from mine experience, Bismarckia of my size cope with the wind great, better than many other palms. Queen palm is another story.

But again my garden and my place is very protected. My garden by stone walls, our place Trsteno by hills. So wind is not that strong here.

But I need canopy in my garden thats for sure. Because sun is very strong here. And I need the shade. But I want to achieved that by using only the palm trees.

Edited by Cikas

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Phoenikakias

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

Well that map is not that accurate I guess. Places like costal Cyprus, Crete and Souther Portugal have a much warmer climate then lets say Liguria or Rome. Especially close to the southern coastal areas. Also about the warmest winters in the Mediterranean are in South Eastern Spain. Much warmer in winter then Croatia.

Well amazing you can grow Bismarckia in Dubrovnik!

Alexander

Croatia is a broad term. :)

Some parts of Croatia are USDA 7.

Dalmatia is the warmest part of Croatia. And Dubrovnik area is the warmest part of Dalmatia.

Malaga area would be the warmest part of Spain if I'am not mistaken.

It is true, Malaga area of Spain is warmer than Dubrovnik area. Malaga and Dubrovnik have very similar average minimum temperatures during the year. But average maximum temperatures during winter in Malaga are higher. Although this Dubrovnik climate chartz is not completely accurate. The actual values ​​are higher.

I do not know is this Malaga chartz completely accurate, likewise.

you will know more about that. :)

Malaga, Spain

Screen_Shot002.png

Dubrovnik

Screen_Shot002.png

I have been in Marbella once in April and I admit there was not any dramatic difference from southern Attica, but again I it was a different season than winter.

Edited by Phoenikakias

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Cluster

Just read this interesting thread and wanted to add that Lisbon for example is quiet mild during the winter and is not in the Mediterranean, I believe they have queen palms here.

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Cikas

This year continues to be strange and not typical climate vise.

We had so far 405,4 mm of rain in september. That is more than four times of the normal amount for the month. Normal amount for the whole month of september is around 86 mm.

This is a record, the largest amount of the rain ever recorded for September.

Also we had not typical storm for this part of the year last night. Wind strength was 100 km/h.

Edited by Cikas

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Kostas

Yikes! Everything ok after that wind speed?

Nice amount of rainfall though...Got 53.8mm in Pyrgos and I am happy for them! The forecast is for rain this week again,so things should grow lush. Rain with high heat makes for the best growth rates! :)

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Cikas

All palms are ok after the wind. Bismarckia is even opening its older spear.

But all my bananas have damaged leaves.

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Cikas

Bismarckia is looking great after last night storm with high wind.

Oldest spear starts to open.

rsz_p9230140.jpg

New spear is growing fast

rsz_p9230141.jpg

rsz_p9230142.jpg

rsz_p9230143.jpg

Bananas in other hand look terrible after the storm. :(

rsz_p9230145.jpg

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Kostas

Are the bananas of an edible cultivar or M. basjoo?

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Cikas

Are the bananas of an edible cultivar or M. basjoo?

These on photos are basjoo ( 4m tall ). But I have Dwarf Namwah, Pisang Ceylon, Ice cream and Fen Ba Jiao of edible cultivars.

And thomsonii of wild bananas also.

Edited by Cikas

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Kostas

I thought so,the edible bananas with yellow bracts are really rare.

Happy growing! :)

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cheshirepalms

The has gone mad, four times your average rain is incredible! I have had rain today, the only day this month and it lasted 3 hours. 10mm so far in September here!

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Cikas

Small update. :greenthumb:

rsz_p9250145.jpg

rsz_p9250146.jpg

rsz_p9250147.jpg

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mlovecan

Interesting climate for that far up the coast.

Also interesting is the proximity of your rock wall and the fact it seems to be built with precisely the same rock as the wall that is next to my most tropical long term palm - a dictyosperma album. I have always attributed my hurricane's steady growth ( even in winter now ) to the heat absorbed by the wall and then released at night.

Cheers

Maurice

Edited by mlovecan

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sarasota alex

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

This is the most anti-scientific map ever. Look at how the author uses the actual boundaries of the Koeppen Desert Climate to show the "subtropical" boundaries. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Koppen_World_Map_BWh.png

All of the Mediterranean coastal regions are subtropical (either Mediterranean type or humid)Whatever can be grown in Southern California - can be grown in a good portion of the Mediterranean. And that list easily includes Bismarckias. Landscaping around hotels in the Antalya area of Turkey from Kemer to Belek (not even marked as an enclave on the map) often includes Dypsis lutescens and Ravenea rivularis, which thrive there with ample irrigation. I've even seen Roystoneas on pictures from there. Does that not qualify as subtropics?

Subtropics also include most of the Black Sea shores and even some inland European areas. Yalta in Ukraine is zone 8b and Sochi in Russia is zone 9a. Batumi in Georgia is zone 9b with more rainfall than anywhere in Florida. And Trachycarpus fortunei is becoming invasive near Lake Geneva in Switzerland.

Europe is much more palm-friendly than one would think.

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nick

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

@ Brahea Axel: Don't count on that map too much. Cyprus region (e.g. USDA Zone 10b) is not mentioned as a subtropical zone. :interesting:

Just one example directly on the coast:

post-5861-0-71068100-1411837411_thumb.jp

Cikas, good luck and success!

Edited by nick
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Stelios

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

@ Brahea Axel: Don't count on that map too much. Cyprus region (e.g. USDA Zone 10b) is not mentioned as a subtropical zone. :interesting:

Just one example directly on the coast:

attachicon.gifSea Caves.jpg

Cikas, good luck and success!

That's a nice garden. We sure can grow different tropical plants and palms here in Paphos, Cyprus.

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Phoenikakias

This is a miserable Bismarckia growing in near Athens, Greece, which is not subtropical according to the map.

post-6141-0-31764400-1411929347_thumb.jp

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Cikas

To me it does not look that bad at all. :)

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Explorer

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

This is the most anti-scientific map ever. Look at how the author uses the actual boundaries of the Koeppen Desert Climate to show the "subtropical" boundaries. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Koppen_World_Map_BWh.png

All of the Mediterranean coastal regions are subtropical (either Mediterranean type or humid)Whatever can be grown in Southern California - can be grown in a good portion of the Mediterranean. And that list easily includes Bismarckias. Landscaping around hotels in the Antalya area of Turkey from Kemer to Belek (not even marked as an enclave on the map) often includes Dypsis lutescens and Ravenea rivularis, which thrive there with ample irrigation. I've even seen Roystoneas on pictures from there. Does that not qualify as subtropics?

Subtropics also include most of the Black Sea shores and even some inland European areas. Yalta in Ukraine is zone 8b and Sochi in Russia is zone 9a. Batumi in Georgia is zone 9b with more rainfall than anywhere in Florida. And Trachycarpus fortunei is becoming invasive near Lake Geneva in Switzerland.

Europe is much more palm-friendly than one would think.

Well the Black Sea area I would say is more warm temperate then realy subtropical! Yalta can get pretty cold sometimes with -22 C in cold winters, and Sochi sometimes get snow. So no Bismarckias there or other near troipical palms like Roystonea. Trachycarpus fortunei is not a subtropical palm, they grow even pretty well in the Netherlands, certainly in my are in the West of the country they are able to survive the odd nasty cold winters here. And they have survived here in the country in areas with -18 to -20 C and even colder. T. fortunei like T. takil is probably from a mountain origin where snow and frost are not uncommon in winter. And if you say the sort of habitat where T. takil grows, its a mixture of broadleave and laurophyllos trees and some coniferous species.

Alexander

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sarasota alex

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

This is the most anti-scientific map ever. Look at how the author uses the actual boundaries of the Koeppen Desert Climate to show the "subtropical" boundaries. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Koppen_World_Map_BWh.png

All of the Mediterranean coastal regions are subtropical (either Mediterranean type or humid)Whatever can be grown in Southern California - can be grown in a good portion of the Mediterranean. And that list easily includes Bismarckias. Landscaping around hotels in the Antalya area of Turkey from Kemer to Belek (not even marked as an enclave on the map) often includes Dypsis lutescens and Ravenea rivularis, which thrive there with ample irrigation. I've even seen Roystoneas on pictures from there. Does that not qualify as subtropics?

Subtropics also include most of the Black Sea shores and even some inland European areas. Yalta in Ukraine is zone 8b and Sochi in Russia is zone 9a. Batumi in Georgia is zone 9b with more rainfall than anywhere in Florida. And Trachycarpus fortunei is becoming invasive near Lake Geneva in Switzerland.

Europe is much more palm-friendly than one would think.

Well the Black Sea area I would say is more warm temperate then realy subtropical! Yalta can get pretty cold sometimes with -22 C in cold winters, and Sochi sometimes get snow. So no Bismarckias there or other near troipical palms like Roystonea. Trachycarpus fortunei is not a subtropical palm, they grow even pretty well in the Netherlands, certainly in my are in the West of the country they are able to survive the odd nasty cold winters here. And they have survived here in the country in areas with -18 to -20 C and even colder. T. fortunei like T. takil is probably from a mountain origin where snow and frost are not uncommon in winter. And if you say the sort of habitat where T. takil grows, its a mixture of broadleave and laurophyllos trees and some coniferous species.

Alexander

Alexander, where is your information coming from? All time record low in Yalta is -12.3C, recorded at a weather station at 250m elevation in 1950. Down at the sea level it's never been below -10C and the average yearly low is around -5C, making the immediate shore area of Yalta zone 9a. And there are warmer places in the Greater Yalta than Yalta proper, like Simeiz, Alupka, Foros. I lived in another Yalta suburb - Gurzuf at some point, so I'm very familiar with the climate there. Areas below 300m elevation in Yalta have true Mediterranean climate, albeit not as warm some other Mediterranean place. I posted pictures a while ago http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29766-palms-in-ukraine/?p=482209 which were taken during one of the coldest stretches in the current Century. On the second photo you can see how the snow does not exist near the sea.

Sochi has a true humid subtropical climate. Snow is not a good way to measure subtropicalness. It has snowed in Tampa after all - http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/photos/envirmnt/weather/0627.htm

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nick

Alexander, regarding Sochi I agree with you, but go more south to Batumi or Trabzon, it is pretty mild down there, similar to Dubrovnik but not marked in that odd map.

Not to mention Cyprus, where Banana plantations are located and e.g. local Papayas (papaya carica) and Guavas (Psidium guajava) can be found in shops during the season. Plumeria is common in many gardens, also Delonix regia. Just a few examples what thrives here beside the usual Mediterranean plants.

And I really wonder what "subtropical zone" is marked noth of rome, what can be found there? :interesting:

cheers nick

Edited by nick
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Phoenikakias

Alexander, regarding Sochi I agree with you, but go more south to Batumi or Trabzon, it is pretty mild down there, similar to Dubrovnik but not marked in that odd map.

Not to mention Cyprus, where Banana plantations are located and e.g. local Papayas (papaya carica) and Guavas (Psidium guajava) can be found in shops during the season. Plumeria is common in many gardens, also Delonix regia. Just a few examples what thrives here beside the usual Mediterranean plants.

And I really wonder what "subtropical zone" is marked noth of rome, what can be found there? :interesting:

cheers nick

Yep, I wonder also whether an area being sheltered from strong northern wind through high mountains (Alpes or Caucasus eg) suffices to compensate fully a more northern latitude. Plumerias (either outplanted or in pots sitting outside), Delonix and Papaya I expect to see truely only in Dodekanes, Crete and Cyprus (with some reservation regarding southwestern tip of Peloponnese), as far as the greek speaking geographical space is concerned, and I doubt, whether all above three plants have a least chance in other European 'subtropical places' with the exception of Sicily (or part of it and surrounding islands), and southwestern Spain and Portugal.

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Cikas

And small update from today. :)

rsz_pa010140.jpg

rsz_pa010141.jpg

rsz_pa010142.jpg

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Darold Petty

Cikas, thank you for the photos of your beautiful Bismarkia,.. and the interesting facts about your unique climate. :greenthumb:

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Moose

Alexander, regarding Sochi I agree with you, but go more south to Batumi or Trabzon, it is pretty mild down there, similar to Dubrovnik but not marked in that odd map.

Not to mention Cyprus, where Banana plantations are located and e.g. local Papayas (papaya carica) and Guavas (Psidium guajava) can be found in shops during the season. Plumeria is common in many gardens, also Delonix regia. Just a few examples what thrives here beside the usual Mediterranean plants.

And I really wonder what "subtropical zone" is marked noth of rome, what can be found there? :interesting:

cheers nick

Yep, I wonder also whether an area being sheltered from strong northern wind through high mountains (Alpes or Caucasus eg) suffices to compensate fully a more northern latitude. Plumerias (either outplanted or in pots sitting outside), Delonix and Papaya I expect to see truely only in Dodekanes, Crete and Cyprus (with some reservation regarding southwestern tip of Peloponnese), as far as the greek speaking geographical space is concerned, and I doubt, whether all above three plants have a least chance in other European 'subtropical places' with the exception of Sicily (or part of it and surrounding islands), and southwestern Spain and Portugal.

Would Sicily qualify as subtropical ?

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Phoenikakias

Alexander, regarding Sochi I agree with you, but go more south to Batumi or Trabzon, it is pretty mild down there, similar to Dubrovnik but not marked in that odd map.

Not to mention Cyprus, where Banana plantations are located and e.g. local Papayas (papaya carica) and Guavas (Psidium guajava) can be found in shops during the season. Plumeria is common in many gardens, also Delonix regia. Just a few examples what thrives here beside the usual Mediterranean plants.

And I really wonder what "subtropical zone" is marked noth of rome, what can be found there? :interesting:

cheers nick

Yep, I wonder also whether an area being sheltered from strong northern wind through high mountains (Alpes or Caucasus eg) suffices to compensate fully a more northern latitude. Plumerias (either outplanted or in pots sitting outside), Delonix and Papaya I expect to see truely only in Dodekanes, Crete and Cyprus (with some reservation regarding southwestern tip of Peloponnese), as far as the greek speaking geographical space is concerned, and I doubt, whether all above three plants have a least chance in other European 'subtropical places' with the exception of Sicily (or part of it and surrounding islands), and southwestern Spain and Portugal.

Would Sicily qualify as subtropical ?

There is a naturalized forest of Howea forsteriana there and perhaps one of the very few Medemia argun growing outplanted in Europe. Also Pritchardia remota (or at least it used to grow until it fell victim to rpw), and Gaussia maya, so what do you think? Of course if the term subtropical is meant in a sense also used in the ongoing debate about the subtropical status of SoCa, then IT IS NOT...

Edited by Phoenikakias

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Kostas

Howea fosteriana are sure grows in western Peloponese,you can plant and leave them alone to grow. Plumerias too. Haven't tried Delonix to say. Papayas are rot prone and my garden too shady but in the correct spot,I think they would be fine. Pritchardia schattaueri grows in my garden but these are not marginals any more than Dictyosperma, Prestoea or Cryosophila that also grow :) Gaussia maya is an easy grow, just a rare-ish palm. It's fast too!

A big Plumeria collection grows on the island of Paros btw and another bigger one in southeastern Peloponese.

Guava grows no problem even in Athens.I know of long term ground planted Papayas in Athens as well,though they are in extremely protected microclimates and get a little protection from a sheet thrown on them the cold nights.

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