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Cikas

Bismarckia nobilis ( Dubrovnik )

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cheshirepalms

These are not my pictures, as I've never been but this is Tresco Abbey Gardens, on the Isles Of Scilly, click right for next picture. I have added a slideshow from Torquay in Southern England at 51 degrees north. It is from my holiday last summer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ukgardenphotos/5603688415/in/photostream/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ0gI0OdsBg&list=UUehSNG1tNH8pdJgTT0KSuUQ

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Cikas

These are not my pictures, as I've never been but this is Tresco Abbey Gardens, on the Isles Of Scilly, click right for next picture. I have added a slideshow from Torquay in Southern England at 51 degrees north. It is from my holiday last summer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ukgardenphotos/5603688415/in/photostream/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ0gI0OdsBg&list=UUehSNG1tNH8pdJgTT0KSuUQ

Wow, that is breathtaking beautifull. :yay:

England have some of the most beautifull gardens in the world. This really proves the point that someone do not need to live in a tropical climate to have a breathtaking garden. :greenthumb:

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cheshirepalms

These are not my pictures, as I've never been but this is Tresco Abbey Gardens, on the Isles Of Scilly, click right for next picture. I have added a slideshow from Torquay in Southern England at 51 degrees north. It is from my holiday last summer.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ukgardenphotos/5603688415/in/photostream/

There are some very mild areas even in England, here is my garden near Liverpool. It is new, not 3 years old yet so it has not filled out yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdojaRfax7A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGzxsPYw7Ks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ0gI0OdsBg&list=UUehSNG1tNH8pdJgTT0KSuUQ

Wow, that is breathtaking beautifull. :yay:

England have some of the most beautifull gardens in the world. This really proves the point that someone do not need to live in a tropical climate to have a breathtaking garden. :greenthumb:

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Halekuma

Years ago I had to spend the entire month of December in Europe. I spent a lot of time that month to find a place in Europe where I could escape the dreary Winter even just for a few days. So I looked at all the Winter averages. The only place in all of Europe that had Winter averages similar to Southern California was the Canary Islands. All of Greece, Italy, Southern France and Spain are plagued by average December and January lows 12C or worse.

Hope you are joking Axel... you are talking like continental Europe is worse than north california... You can go to Marbella any day in December and feel warmer at night than yesterday night in your place or even in downtown santacruz... Now you are not speaking the truth basically if you think in places like Almuñecar or Malaga in December (maybe in late February you could have few cold nights) you feel cold... Actually I can say without fear that Almeria in Spain is wyyyy warmer in winter than any palmy place like San Diego in south california....

Canary Islands is in a different league climate wise than socal, you can compare Canary Islands to Hawaii but not socal to Canary islands.... is just not comparable...

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dalmatiansoap

I desperate wanted to skip this thread to slow down some of tensions but I simply have to state few facts for my own peace of mind.

First, its useless to debate about climate but I have to say no matter what latitudes says we are here no matter that we are on 42-44N still in solid USDA zone 9. The best describtion IMO would be the "Queen" zone. Im not going to talk about possibiles microclimate pockets with "zone 10" conditions. Nothing more than zone 9 if anybody is interested in my opinion.

Second,

growing Bizmarckias here is zone pushing. Some of the pictures Cikas posted are mine and were taken this April after mild Winter

IMAG0821_zps69b384e8.jpg

IMAG0822_zpsaed09ac1.jpg

IMAG0825_zps5cf05103.jpg

Palms were planted in Fall 2012 and as Axel noticed were imported from Spain. They are still deeply stressed and I dont thing they will ever look like they should. Planted on northen side with not appropriate irrigation just doesnt work

On the other side toto who is a member here has one from 2005 and palm is still doing great but he is one of leading palm enthusiasts in this part of Europe and he knows how to take care about plants

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/22285-bizzie-43n/

this are how it looks now

399983_425448267528460_791248237_n_zps95

541060_425456667527620_1577959273_n_zpsa

66476_425448257528461_842832360_n_zps9a8

No way Bizmarckias can be randomly planted around here. Not without serious care and some pasive protection.

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dalmatiansoap

Just to add, Adonidias are toasted.

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gyuseppe
I read with interest this thread ,here is my opinion ,suffice just one day of frost in 10 years, to kill many species, as has happened many times here in southern Italy,
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Rafael

It depends on the places you try to grow some species. If you do it in frost free sheltered places, like one of my yards, you are able to grow 10a palms (even some 10b) with absolute minimum of 32F/0C.

And yes Jaime (Halekuma), some places in south Spain and South Portugal are able to allow some tender palms's growth, like in Socal.

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Cikas

I desperate wanted to skip this thread to slow down some of tensions but I simply have to state few facts for my own peace of mind.

First, its useless to debate about climate but I have to say no matter what latitudes says we are here no matter that we are on 42-44N still in solid USDA zone 9. The best describtion IMO would be the "Queen" zone. Im not going to talk about possibiles microclimate pockets with "zone 10" conditions. Nothing more than zone 9 if anybody is interested in my opinion.

Second,

growing Bizmarckias here is zone pushing. Some of the pictures Cikas posted are mine and were taken this April after mild Winter

IMAG0821_zps69b384e8.jpg

IMAG0822_zpsaed09ac1.jpg

IMAG0825_zps5cf05103.jpg

Palms were planted in Fall 2012 and as Axel noticed were imported from Spain. They are still deeply stressed and I dont thing they will ever look like they should. Planted on northen side with not appropriate irrigation just doesnt work

On the other side toto who is a member here has one from 2005 and palm is still doing great but he is one of leading palm enthusiasts in this part of Europe and he knows how to take care about plants

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/22285-bizzie-43n/

this are how it looks now

399983_425448267528460_791248237_n_zps95

541060_425456667527620_1577959273_n_zpsa

66476_425448257528461_842832360_n_zps9a8

No way Bizmarckias can be randomly planted around here. Not without serious care and some pasive protection.

I disagree with you Dalmatiansoap. First you do not live in Dubrovnik, you live in Makarska.

I agree Bismarckia can not be planted randomly in Split or Makarska. Split and Makarska are more like USDA 9A, some parts maybe lower USDA 9b.

Cold northen wind Bura is very strong in Split and Makarska. You have frost there.

And you have temperatures below freezing when they are above freezing point in Dubrovnik. Two different climates.

We can grow things like Avocado, tamarilo, all citrus species, Dracena draco, Nolina, Bananas do not loose their leaves here during winter. Different Alocasia species also do not loose their leaves. All strelitzia species grow great here. Ficus and Schefflera also grow great here.

Many of this plants can not grow in Split and Makarska.

Here warm wind Jugo is much stronger. And if you look at temperatures in the last 10 years. Dubrovnik would be USDA 10a.

But I will considered Dubrovnik bordeline USDA 9b/10a.

We have more than enough heat during winter for Bismarckia. Because our colder months are January and February. And even these months temperatures during the day are mainly above 11-12C ( 54F ).

We never have freezing weather that last for days. if we have below freezing temperatures, that os only in coldest part of the night for hour or less, only 1-2 time during winter, and not even every winter. 40% of our winters does not have belowe freezing temperatures.

Toto garden is Located near island Hvar. Hvar is colder than Dubrovnik.

That said, my Bismarckia is here. And we we see hpw she will grow in years to come. ;)

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas

Just to add, Adonidias are toasted.

Some of them. But not all. Like I already said.They are not viable long term, but they can survive few winters here in ground. These which were in pots are usually tosted. Many of them planted in ground survived.

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Cikas

It depends on the places you try to grow some species. If you do it in frost free sheltered places, like one of my yards, you are able to grow 10a palms (even some 10b) with absolute minimum of 32F/0C.

And yes Jaime (Halekuma), some places in south Spain and South Portugal are able to allow some tender palms's growth, like in Socal.

I agree. Just to add that official temperatures are measured in the shade under special rules.

Our gardens are different story.

Temperatures in sun, are higher. Many of our gardens are near stone and concrete

building. Near walls, near concrete paths, in raised beds ect...

Our gardens are almost always warmer than official temperatures.

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Brahea Axel

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

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Cikas

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

Dubrovnik is mostly frost free. And our climate Alex are only similar during January and February. Spring, Summer and autumn have much more heat during the night. Our minimal temperatures are much higher in these months.

So heat loving palms will have the heat all the time in these months. So they can become strong.

In your climate they must cope with cool-cold temperatures every night in the year. Even in summer. So it is not the same.

Santa Cruz Mountains

Normal winter temperatures range from the upper 30s °F (~3–4 °C) to the middle 50s °F (~13–14 °C), with valley frosts common but rarely widespread or deep. Summer temperatures regularly reach highs in the 80s °F (~28–29 °C) with nighttime usually in the upper 40s to lower 50s °F (~9–12 °C). Thermal inversions can occur any time of the year where cool air sinks and gets trapped in the valleys.

Edited by Cikas

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Brahea Axel

I was actually comparing your climate to inland Norcal which has very warm Springs and Falls. My climate is completely different, more like Rafael's climate.

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Ben in Norcal

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

Dubrovnik is mostly frost free. And our climate Alex are only similar during January and February. Spring, Summer and autumn have much more heat during the night. Our minimal temperatures are much higher in these months.

So heat loving palms will have the heat all the time in these months. So they can become strong.

In your climate they must cope with cool-cold temperatures every night in the year. Even in summer. So it is not the same.

Santa Cruz Mountains

Normal winter temperatures range from the upper 30s °F (~3–4 °C) to the middle 50s °F (~13–14 °C), with valley frosts common but rarely widespread or deep. Summer temperatures regularly reach highs in the 80s °F (~28–29 °C) with nighttime usually in the upper 40s to lower 50s °F (~9–12 °C). Thermal inversions can occur any time of the year where cool air sinks and gets trapped in the valleys.

Keep in mind Axel said Northern California. I live about an hour away from Axel and have a totally different climate, with lots of heat.

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Kostas

It will be huge and impressive in no time Jurica, as will the W. robusta, they are rockets with plenty of water in the growing season! I read something like 50cm of trunk per year is possible with Bismarckia in good conditions, so that would make it maybe even faster than a Washingtonia in trunk growth. But thats in really good conditions so i am not sure we will achieve that but its a number to strive for! :drool:

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Cikas

Alex climate is great for cool loving palms. Because they will have cool temperatures even in summer ( nights ). So they can become stronger to cope with heat during the day.

In my climate they are a challenge. Because it is hot all the time for months. They do not have any period of cool to rest a little. And if you add stone walls and concrete to that. It can be very very hot, even Syagrus shows some sun damage in my garden.

Even Dypsis Decipiens can be a challenge here because of our heat. They do great here during winter, but summer is their killer. So they must be planted in some shady position, away from walls..

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is more hardy here than Dypsis Decipiens.

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas

It will be huge and impressive in no time Jurica, as will the W. robusta, they are rockets with plenty of water in the growing season! I read something like 50cm of trunk per year is possible with Bismarckia in good conditions, so that would make it maybe even faster than a Washingtonia in trunk growth. But thats in really good conditions so i am not sure we will achieve that but its a number to strive for! :drool:

Your bismarckia was the main reason why I also planted one. Your looks great and grows so fast.

I hope that mine will look at least similar to yours. :greenthumb:

Edited by Cikas

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dalmatiansoap

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

Exactly! To add, there are frost free pockets on the shoreline to. Nough said.

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Kostas

I am sure it will, and soon! Mine is still small in the pictures, not in its most impressive stage yet, especially with the leafs kept up from the walkway... It has grown quite a bit since the last pictures and am hoping it reaches 4m tall by the end of the year if I am lucky :)

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Cikas

I am sure it will, and soon! Mine is still small in the pictures, not in its most impressive stage yet, especially with the leafs kept up from the walkway... It has grown quite a bit since the last pictures and am hoping it reaches 4m tall by the end of the year if I am lucky :)

I'am sure it will. As palm grown from seed, yours was extremely fast.

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Brahea Axel

Thanks Ante for confirming what I concluded from the weather data sites and from the pictures. Zone pushing is fun and I am sure there will be a number of bismarckia that will make it and grow well. I see a lot of similarities between the climate up there and inland Northern California - a lot of heat during the growing season and a lot of chill in the Winter. Sounds like there are some nice islands that have almost frost free Winters where a lot more zone pushing can be accomplished.

Exactly! To add, there are frost free pockets on the shoreline to. Nough said.

I remember Cicas posted pics of the old medieval part of Dubrovnik. That little peninsula surrounded by water and all that concrete should be able to support all sorts of zone 10 pushes. There's no question that there is plenty of Summer heat to zone push a bismarckia and make it look good. But it takes some skills and the right nano-climate. Most of those pictures you posted suggest that wind is a far more destructive factor on a bismarckia than cold temperatures.

Cicas, I don't understand why you have a problem with the term "zone push". My garden is filled with zone pushes that can survive there because I have a good nano-climate for them in my garden, and my garden as a whole is in a favorable microclimate. The USDA has re-mapped a lot of the Santa Cruz Mountains as USDA 10a and 10b, but all that is bogus because few people have property up in these zones, it's all forest and mountains. As a whole, our entire region is best qualified as 9b. Zone pushing is what I refer to as what a few skilled gardeners can grow who know how to properly situate a palm and who are lucky enough to live in one of the thermal belts. An "In zone" palm is a plant you can hand to just about anyone anywhere in your region and it will grow no matter what.

In that context, I am certain that you will have a great bismarckia, and judging from the fact that you have it in your courtyard where it will be protected from wind and from Winter cold, it would take a natural catastrophe to kill it. I just will stick with Ante and say that a bismarckia is going to be a zone push around the 42nd parallel no matter what your microclimate is because the low Winter sun angle at that latitude is the root cause for a pretty significant increase in Winter chill accumulation. Yours will be an excellent data point for how bismarckia cope with Winter chill.

I will give you one data point from my bismarckia: I get considerable Winter chill, with Winter lows around 5-7C being the norm. I get a lot of daytime heat in the part of my garden that stays sunny in the Winter months, and last Winter, despite the cold nights, the two bismarckia I have that are in full Winter sun put on two leaves each, one in early December and one in late February. The other four bismarckia that are growing where the sun disappears in the Winter experienced zero setback from a good 600 hours of chill, but I got no growth until the sun came back to those areas. The problem with extended periods of no growth is spear rot, but three months of no growth was not enough to cause this issue here. At 42N, the sun angle is low for longer, so the period of inactivity in the Winter is longer. That's all you really need to watch out for. 4-5 months of no activity may lead to spear rot.

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Cikas

All my plant grow during winter also. For example Robusta.

I have alot of bananas. And they are the best way to see how cold it is. For me they do not loose their leaves at all during winter. They are only damaged by wind.

They even grow during winter.

I also already have alot of USDA 10a plants in my garden. For example tender species of Bougainvillea, chamaedorea elegans,

Schefflera

ect..

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Brahea Axel

All my plant grow during winter also. For example Robusta.

I have alot of bananas. And they are the best way to see how cold it is. For me they do not loose their leaves at all during winter. They are only damaged by wind.

They even grow during winter.

I also already have alot of USDA 10a plants in my garden. For example tender species of Bougainvillea, chamaedorea elegans,

Schefflera

ect..

Bananas are a very good zone indicator. Wherever your bananas stay green you can grow all sorts of zone 10 palms as long as those palms have good Winter chill tolerance, i.e. they tolerate cold soil. Pretty much most of the Newcal palms are like that, and many dypsis don't mind the cold soil either.

When I first moved here I planted them all over my property. Mother Nature quickly showed me all the mild spots on my property. Bananas stay green in my upper garden, but they get torched in my lower garden. Here is a picture of some goldfinger bananas I ripened during Winter, this is a March harvest. You can see the conditions of my bananas after a long Winter, mostly wind damage. Alas, my ex-wife made me pull out that banana bunch because it was taking over our patio. I now only grow ensete ventricosum, but some day, I'll grow edible bananas again.

goldfinger.jpg

bananas.jpg

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Cikas

Also sun houres here are not the problem. Dubrovnik has alot of sun hours annually. Around 2.623.

So Bismarckia should grow here most of the January and February too, just slowly.

For example these are the maximum temperatures in January this year for every day ( in shade ). Bismarckia goes dormant below 11-12C.

1 13.3
2 13
3 14.2
4 16
5 15
6 15
7 16.6
8 16.5
9 15.9
10 14.5
11 17.7
12 14.4
13 16.2
14 14.5
15 14.6
16 15.2
17 15.1
18 15.3
19 15.5
20 15.7
21 13.8
22 15.9
23 14.2
24 14
25 8.3
26 9.9
27 10.8
28 9.3
29 10.2
30 14.4
31 16.9

My Bismarckia is in full all day sun ( I have no canopy in garden yet ).

.

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas

February

1 15.8
2 15.2
3 16.3
4 12.4
5 12.2
6 13.7
7 13.2
8 14.2
9 13.6
10 14.2
11 18.7
12 15.3
13 14.4
14 13.3
15 16.7
16 15.6
17 16.2
18 17.1
19 17.8
20 15.5
21 16
22 16.7
23 14
24 14.1
25 16.5
26 17.2
27 14.2
28 15.2

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Brahea Axel

You need the daytime high to be at least above 15C to get any Winter growth on a bismarckia. I only saw growth on mine when daytime highs were consistently in the 20-30C range in Winter.

Here are my Winter temps near Winter solstice from my weather station which is 25 feet away from my bismarckia

Dec High Low

18 16 °C 8 °C

19 18 °C 6 °C

20 20 °C 4 °C

21 18 °C 5 °C

22 18 °C 5 °C

23 22 °C 6 °C

24 24 °C 7 °C

25 27 °C 6 °C

26 29 °C 9 °C

27 24 °C 8 °C

28 24 °C 6 °C

29 24 °C 8 °C

30 21 °C 6 °C

31 21 °C 4 °C

2014 Temperature

Jan High Low

1 22 °C 6 °C

2 24 °C 8 °C

3 23 °C 9 °C

4 23 °C 7 °C

5 24 °C 6 °C

6 23 °C 8 °C

7 26 °C 8 °C

8 18 °C 8 °C

9 21 °C 7 °C

10 19 °C 7 °C

11 17 °C 7 °C

12 20 °C 5 °C

13 28 °C 8 °C

14 29 °C 9 °C

15 31 °C 9 °C

16 29 °C 11 °C

17 30 °C 11 °C

18 29 °C 8 °C

19 26 °C 10 °C

20 25 °C 6 °C

21 26 °C 7 °C

22 24 °C 7 °C

23 18 °C 6 °C

24 20 °C 8 °C

25 26 °C 9 °C

26 22 °C 9 °C

27 22 °C 6 °C

28 22 °C 9 °C

29 21 °C 13 °C

30 21 °C 9 °C

31 21 °C 6 °C

Just so you know about our climates, here are the same readings from the USDA 10b zones at 1500 feet elevation in the Santa Cruz Mountains. You can see the lows are often above 10C up there, but the highs are lower than mine. Those spots are frost free, ask Jim about it, his co-worker used to live up there. Look especially at the days marked in red, it never dropped below 15C in the middle of Winter.

Dec High Low

18 17 °C 8 °C

19 13 °C 5 °C

20 15 °C 6 °C

21 21 °C 9 °C

22 20 °C 9 °C

23 21 °C 10 °C

24 21 °C 12 °C

25 23 °C 12 °C

26 26 °C 16 °C

27 24 °C 16 °C

28 19 °C 11 °C

29 22 °C 11 °C

30 20 °C 10 °C

31 20 °C 9 °C

2014 Temperature

Jan High Low

1 22 °C 11 °C

2 24 °C 15 °C

3 21 °C 14 °C

4 22 °C 11 °C

5 23 °C 11 °C

6 19 °C 12 °C

7 19 °C 9 °C

8 16 °C 8 °C

9 17 °C 7 °C

10 20 °C 9 °C

11 14 °C 8 °C

12 15 °C 6 °C

13 20 °C 10 °C

14 22 °C 14 °C

15 27 °C 15 °C

16 28 °C 18 °C

17 29 °C 17 °C

18 27 °C 17 °C

19 25 °C 17 °C

20 24 °C 18 °C

21 27 °C 15 °C

22 24 °C 14 °C

23 21 °C 8 °C

24 20 °C 8 °C

25 26 °C 13 °C

26 21 °C 10 °C

27 18 °C 7 °C

28 23 °C 11 °C

29 21 °C 13 °C

30 16 °C 8 °C

31 16 °C 6 °C

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Astrophoenix

Damn,I envy those temps.

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Cikas

Today I noticed that my bismarckia is pushing a new spear. Fifth in the last 4 months since it was planted in the ground. :yay:

rsz_p9180140.jpg

rsz_p9180141.jpg

rsz_p9180143.jpg

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Explorer

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

Well that map is not that accurate I guess. Places like costal Cyprus, Crete and Souther Portugal have a much warmer climate then lets say Liguria or Rome. Especially close to the southern coastal areas. Also about the warmest winters in the Mediterranean are in South Eastern Spain. Much warmer in winter then Croatia.

Well amazing you can grow Bismarckia in Dubrovnik!

Alexander

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Explorer

This is downright depressing that a location in Europe similar to the latitude with Boston can near comfortably grow Bismarckias and at nearly exactly 34 degrees latitude, I need at least moderate protection :rage:. Or, unless we have one of those "fantasy" type of 9B winters we had a few years ago, but I wont count on that. Even then...

But besides my lamenting, wherever those bismarckias are, they are beautiful- not so much like the Cali' ones, but kudos to being able to grow them where you are.

I am glad I do not live in Boston. Even in the chilly Netherlands we can grow more palms then in Boston! A good Trachycarpus fortunei they can only dream of in Boston I guess.

Well the Mediterranean is paradise anyway. Much better then California! With all the culture we have here in Europe!

Alexander

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smithgn

This is downright depressing that a location in Europe similar to the latitude with Boston can near comfortably grow Bismarckias and at nearly exactly 34 degrees latitude, I need at least moderate protection :rage:. Or, unless we have one of those "fantasy" type of 9B winters we had a few years ago, but I wont count on that. Even then...

But besides my lamenting, wherever those bismarckias are, they are beautiful- not so much like the Cali' ones, but kudos to being able to grow them where you are.

I am glad I do not live in Boston. Even in the chilly Netherlands we can grow more palms then in Boston! A good Trachycarpus fortunei they can only dream of in Boston I guess.

Well the Mediterranean is paradise anyway. Much better then California! With all the culture we have here in Europe!

Alexander

For the sake of palm growing, I'm glad I don't live in Boston either. What makes the Netherlands less cold than Boston, I wonder? Both cities are on the water but the Netherlands is waaay up there.

Can't speak for California, but being half-Greek, I can't help but be drawn to the Mediterranean climate AND lifestyle. Speaking of which, If I can ever get my camera operating again, I need to upload some photos from when I was in Greece back in July. Palm pictures were taken while I was there, of course!

Edited by smithgn

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Cikas

This is downright depressing that a location in Europe similar to the latitude with Boston can near comfortably grow Bismarckias and at nearly exactly 34 degrees latitude, I need at least moderate protection :rage:. Or, unless we have one of those "fantasy" type of 9B winters we had a few years ago, but I wont count on that. Even then...

But besides my lamenting, wherever those bismarckias are, they are beautiful- not so much like the Cali' ones, but kudos to being able to grow them where you are.

I am glad I do not live in Boston. Even in the chilly Netherlands we can grow more palms then in Boston! A good Trachycarpus fortunei they can only dream of in Boston I guess.

Well the Mediterranean is paradise anyway. Much better then California! With all the culture we have here in Europe!

Alexander

For the sake of palm growing, I'm glad I don't live in Boston either. What makes the Netherlands less cold than Boston, I wonder? Both cities are on the water but the Netherlands is waaay up there.

Can't speak for California, but being half-Greek, I can't help but be drawn to the Mediterranean climate AND lifestyle. Speaking of which, If I can ever get my camera operating again, I need to upload some photos from when I was in Greece back in July. Palm pictures were taken while I was there, of course!

Europe is much warmer than North America because of ocean currents. Even England have many areas with USDA 9. While North America on the same latitude can only dream of that zone.

ocean-currents.jpg

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Cikas

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

Well that map is not that accurate I guess. Places like costal Cyprus, Crete and Souther Portugal have a much warmer climate then lets say Liguria or Rome. Especially close to the southern coastal areas. Also about the warmest winters in the Mediterranean are in South Eastern Spain. Much warmer in winter then Croatia.

Well amazing you can grow Bismarckia in Dubrovnik!

Alexander

Croatia is a broad term. :)

Some parts of Croatia are USDA 7.

Dalmatia is the warmest part of Croatia. And Dubrovnik area is the warmest part of Dalmatia.

Malaga area would be the warmest part of Spain if I'am not mistaken.

It is true, Malaga area of Spain is warmer than Dubrovnik area. Malaga and Dubrovnik have very similar average minimum temperatures during the year. But average maximum temperatures during winter in Malaga are higher. Although this Dubrovnik climate chartz is not completely accurate. The actual values ​​are higher.

I do not know is this Malaga chartz completely accurate, likewise.

you will know more about that. :)

Malaga, Spain

Screen_Shot002.png

Dubrovnik

Screen_Shot002.png

Edited by Cikas

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Halekuma

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

547163ZoneSubtroppalarctiqueocc.jpg

Well that map is not that accurate I guess. Places like costal Cyprus, Crete and Souther Portugal have a much warmer climate then lets say Liguria or Rome. Especially close to the southern coastal areas. Also about the warmest winters in the Mediterranean are in South Eastern Spain. Much warmer in winter then Croatia.

Well amazing you can grow Bismarckia in Dubrovnik!

Alexander

Croatia is a broad term. :)

Some parts of Croatia are USDA 7.

Dalmatia is the warmest part of Croatia. And Dubrovnik area is the warmest part of Dalmatia.

Malaga area would be the warmest part of Spain if I'am not mistaken.

It is true, Malaga area of Spain is warmer than Dubrovnik area. Malaga and Dubrovnik have very similar average minimum temperatures during the year. But average maximum temperatures during winter in Malaga are higher. Although this Dubrovnik climate chartz is not completely accurate. The actual values ​​are higher.

I do not know is this Malaga chartz completely accurate, likewise.

you will know more about that. :)

Malaga, Spain

Screen_Shot002.png

Dubrovnik

Screen_Shot002.png

Dubrovnik is far from Malaga climate wise... those Malaga temps are from the airport which is inland and at higher altitude... Malaga coast is not comparable to dubrovnik... Dubrovnik is more similar to valencia for example in spain... Roystonea is an easy palm for Malaga just like CIDP can be for Dubrovnik or for me in 9b/10b northern spain.... and your place is warmer than mine in winter and summer. I would say south-East spanish coast (almuñecar, marbella, almeria) is by far the best climate along maybe some places in Greece for growing tropicals in the CONTINENTAL EUROPE... Only malta, lampedusa, Greek islands, etc would be better but not in CONTINENTAL europe..

Bismarckia is not a hard palm for you definitively as you have sun and warm even in winter but you can't grow a lot of palms that in Malaga would THRIVE...

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Cikas

It is same for Dubrovnik as accuracy of temperatures goes. They are measured at the airport and at the higher altitudes ( 161 m / 527 ft where airport is located) and 22 km from actual city of Dubrovnik. Actual temperatures near the sea ( where I live ) are always warmer.

Gorica temperatures would be more accurate, but I can not find the chartz for them.

I live very near the sea. Beach is only a 5-7 minutes of walking from my house. But it is true, Malaga area for sure can grow a broader range of tropical palms.

I will also try Roystonea in my garden.

They are never tried here.

rsz_p9160123.jpg

Edited by Cikas

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