Bismarckia nobilis ( Dubrovnik )

[Cikas 426]

Here's my Bismarckie nobilis. Currently my favorite palm.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Brahea Axel 269]

Congrats on the new addition to your garden. Make sure to protect this baby this Winter so it can get some size before you expose it to the brunt of your Winters. They need heat during the day in the Winter, which is in short supply in your neck of the woods. I got curious and looked up your climate statistics, this seems pretty cold for Winter. http://www.holiday-weather.com/dubrovnik/averages/. Perhaps you are in a different microclimate.

[Brahea Axel 269]

This site seems to have much more bismarckia viable temps: http://www.dubrovnik.climatemps.com/.

[Cikas 426]

Congrats on the new addition to your garden. Make sure to protect this baby this Winter so it can get some size before you expose it to the brunt of your Winters. They need heat during the day in the Winter, which is in short supply in your neck of the woods. I got curious and looked up your climate statistics, this seems pretty cold for Winter. http://www.holiday-weather.com/dubrovnik/averages/. Perhaps you are in a different microclimate.

That map is totally wrong.

This is accurate data for Dubrovnik area. Dubrovnik is USDA 9b/10a.

http://www.tutiempo.net/clima/DUBROVNIK_GORICA/144720.htm

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Cikas 426]

This is more accurate, but still colder than it really is.

It is planted in May. I will not protect this Bismarckia in any way. I never protect anything in my garden.

Also we already have Bismarcka palms in Dubrovnik.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Cikas 426]

One public Bismarckia Nobillis during Christmas time in Dubrovnik.

[Cikas 426]

Some optimists even planted Adonidia merrillii palms here, and many of them survived without protection.

Although they look like crap.

[Kostas 154]

Very beautiful, Jurica,well done!!!

Did you grow it from seed or got it ready?

The Adonidia don't look too bad,since they do survive,with some fiddling,the should be able to thrive

[richnorm 490]

Couldn't wish for a better microclimate! I think it will do really well if you keep up the summer irrigation.

[Brahea Axel 269]

Great, keep us posted on the fate of those bismarckia. If they do well for you that is one more proof point that bismarckia can be grown in cool rainy Mediterranean Winters.

[Cikas 426]

Very beautiful, Jurica,well done!!!

Did you grow it from seed or got it ready?

The Adonidia don't look too bad,since they do survive,with some fiddling,the should be able to thrive

I ordered this Bismarckia from Spain. I'm very impatient when it comes to germinate plants from seed.

It is planted in may. Bismarckia opened three leaves and pushed four spears since then.

As for Adonidia I think that they are not viable long term here. They can survive few years, but they will look like crap. So I will not plant any.

[Cikas 426]

Great, keep us posted on the fate of those bismarckia. If they do well for you that is one more proof point that bismarckia can be grown in cool rainy Mediterranean Winters.

They already do well here. There is many of them growing for yeras in Dubrovnik. That public one is example.

Also I think my climate is much better for Bismarckia palms than yours. Because we have much more heat during the year.

But your climate is better for cool loving palms.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Astrophoenix 8]

Kudos for the beautiful stonework the colour of which matches charmingly with the noble Madagascan lady.

I find this color blending fascinating.

[Brahea Axel 269]

Great, keep us posted on the fate of those bismarckia. If they do well for you that is one more proof point that bismarckia can be grown in cool rainy Mediterranean Winters.

They already do well here. There is many of them growing for yeras in Dubrovnik. That public one is example.

Also I think my climate is much better for Bismarckia palms than yours. Because we have much more heat during the year.

But your climate is better for cool loving palms.

If there are so many why don't you post some pictures of them. That public one doesn't look very convincing, post a picture of a large one that's been there for a few years, that will be a convincing argument.

[Cikas 426]

Great, keep us posted on the fate of those bismarckia. If they do well for you that is one more proof point that bismarckia can be grown in cool rainy Mediterranean Winters.

They already do well here. There is many of them growing for yeras in Dubrovnik. That public one is example.

Also I think my climate is much better for Bismarckia palms than yours. Because we have much more heat during the year.

But your climate is better for cool loving palms.

If there are so many why don't you post some pictures of them. That public one doesn't look very convincing, post a picture of a large one that's been there for a few years, that will be a convincing argument.

That public one is there for years. That photo is from Christmas 2012. And she already was there few years.

Here is more.

Disclaimer, these photos are not captured by me.

More photos of palms in Dubrovnik during winter time here at this link.

http://palmapedia.com/index.php/topic,3202.0.html

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Brahea Axel 269]

Looks pretty convincing from a size perspective. But both of these look pretty trashed. Do you have some photos of what they look like at the end of Summer? If those are trashed like that at Xmas time, what do they look like by Spring? If you have a lot of Summer heat then they should recover pretty fast by end of Summer.

[Cikas 426]

Kudos for the beautiful stonework the colour of which matches charmingly with the noble Madagascan lady.

I find this color blending fascinating.

Thanks.

This garden is still work in progress ( this is only one of my gardens ). It is very new. It is situated between the ruins of several hundred years old stone house. Near these ruins there is another several hundred years old stone house which is largely preserved.

My goal is to restore that old stone house, but keep that authentic old mediterranean look. And to create a lush garden on the site of the ruins of that other stone house ( located near that other largely preserved one ).

The old thick stone walls of that ruined house are preserved. So they will act as walls of my new garden. So my garden is protected by a thick stone walls.

My goal is to preserve that ''mediterranean stone ruins'' look of the garden ( so everything that is new is built with stone in the style of the ruins to make it look old, like it was there for hundreds of years ) and mix that with ''tropical(ish) paradise'' look.

[Cikas 426]

Looks pretty convincing from a size perspective. But both of these look pretty trashed. Do you have some photos of what they look like at the end of Summer? If those are trashed like that at Xmas time, what do they look like by Spring? If you have a lot of Summer heat then they should recover pretty fast by end of Summer.

Problem is wind. Winters here are very windy. And these palms are on very exposed location.

Wind is a good and a bad thing.

It is good because it prevents formation of frost. But it is bad because it can make mechanical damage on the leaves of some palm trees. But because of our spring, summer and autumn heat, they recover pretty fast if they get enough water ( winds usually begin in the autumn and stop in the spring ). Summers usually have little to no wind. ( rainy summer this year was exception ).

Summers here are hot during the day and night. We can have during the night temperatures of 86+ degrees Fahrenheit sometimes . That is why cool loving palms can be a challenge here. But heat loving palms love our climate.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[LJG 1,167]

Congrats on your planting. It will look awesome there as it fills in.

As far as the last photo I don't think that is so much cold related but rather wind and water restrictions. These things can take as much water you can throw at them in draining soil and get very fat when well irrigated. That last public shot shows a few in the pic and they are skinny. I am sure yours will look much better because you will most likely irrigate more and it is more wind protected.

[Astrophoenix 8]

From what I saw so far I have a feeling you will end up with a marvelous garden.

[Cikas 426]

Congrats on your planting. It will look awesome there as it fills in.

As far as the last photo I don't think that is so much cold related but rather wind and water restrictions. These things can take as much water you can throw at them in draining soil and get very fat when well irrigated. That last public shot shows a few in the pic and they are skinny. I am sure yours will look much better because you will most likely irrigate more and it is more wind protected.

Water is also one of the problems. Despite the fact that Dubrovnik has a lot of ground water, and water is everywhere. Most palms depends on rainfall and ground water. Because people here believe that palm trees do not need watering. So most of them are not irrigated at all.

My Bismarckia is deep watered every third day. Also it is planted in top quality red iron rich ''Terra rossa'' soil. That is very similar to lateritic soil ( Bismarckia grows in lateritic soil in natural habitat ).

So far I'am very pleased with grow rate.

[LJG 1,167]

Congrats on your planting. It will look awesome there as it fills in.

As far as the last photo I don't think that is so much cold related but rather wind and water restrictions. These things can take as much water you can throw at them in draining soil and get very fat when well irrigated. That last public shot shows a few in the pic and they are skinny. I am sure yours will look much better because you will most likely irrigate more and it is more wind protected.

Water is also one of the problems. Despite the fact that Dubrovnik has a lot of ground water, and water is everywhere. Most palms depends on rainfall and ground water. Because people here believe that palm trees do not need watering. So most of them are not irrigated at all.

My Bismarckia is deep watered every third day. Also it is planted in top quality red iron rich ''Terra rossa'' soil. That is very similar to lateritic soil ( Bismarckia grows in lateritic soil in natural habitat ).

So far I'am very pleased with grow rate.

I am a slow typer so my wind observation came before you submitted your comments, so it was good to read you confirmed wind is the issue. Wind can beat these up but when they are planted in climates where they grow slow and where they are not getting watered. They just never grow fast enough to replace the damaged growth before the next season starts to repeat the beatings.

[Brahea Axel 269]

Cicas, it would be good for you to post pictures of those bismarckia today, because all those bismarckia in those photos were all planted as large specimens the Summer just before those photos were taken. I used Google translate to read the entire post from where you got those photos. One of the poster also points out that not a single adonia left out survives past Winter. The poster himself refers to all those bismarckia and adonia plantings at "Fantasy land". You can even still see the red tape by which the bismarckia were picked out at the nursery, most likely Spain.

In one of the picture, you can see the central leaf of one of the bismarckia had already turned yellow as of December. This is a common occurrence on bismarckia planted in inland Central and Northern California.

It would be good to see if any of these bismarckia "fantasies" actually survived and are thriving today. Because it would be a miracle to have a bismarckia survive anywhere at 42N, especially the Eastern Mediterranean. Please get some photos, that would be great. it would be a good data point for the rest of us in Central and Norcal where many folks have attempted bismarckia as far North as 38 latitude and have failed but generally only with small 15g or smaller specimens. And California has the Entire Pacific Ocean as a much more powerful climate moderation engine then just the Mediterranean so it's quite mild here.

[Cikas 426]

Cicas, it would be good for you to post pictures of those bismarckia today, because all those bismarckia in those photos were all planted as large specimens the Summer just before those photos were taken. I used Google translate to read the entire post from where you got those photos. One of the poster also points out that not a single adonia left out survives past Winter. The poster himself refers to all those bismarckia and adonia plantings at "Fantasy land". You can even still see the red tape by which the bismarckia were picked out at the nursery, most likely Spain.

In one of the picture, you can see the central leaf of one of the bismarckia had already turned yellow as of December. This is a common occurrence on bismarckia planted in inland Central and Northern California.

It would be good to see if any of these bismarckia "fantasies" actually survived and are thriving today. Because it would be a miracle to have a bismarckia survive anywhere at 42N, especially the Eastern Mediterranean. Please get some photos, that would be great. it would be a good data point for the rest of us in Central and Norcal where many folks have attempted bismarckia as far North as 38 latitude and have failed but generally only with small 15g or smaller specimens. And California has the Entire Pacific Ocean as a much more powerful climate moderation engine then just the Mediterranean so it's quite mild here.

Your translator is obviously not working well. Please give me the link to the posts on which you referred.

All these photos are taken on winter 2012. And All these palms are still there. As for Adonias, yes many of them, survived.

Like I said Alex, Dubrovnik is USDA 9b/10a. Temperatures goes below freezing very rarely here.. Last two winters we did not have temperatures below freezing. And minimum temperature last winter was 37.4F.

Europe and Mediterranean are much hoter than America on the same latitude. And my climate is hoter than yours,

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Brahea Axel 269]

Cicas, I posted another thread for the highest latitude bismarckia. Please feel free to post some photos, a photo of one of those bismarckia still alive will be a good start, but you need to try to find one that's been around for at least 5 years.

[smithgn 107]

This is downright depressing that a location in Europe similar to the latitude with Boston can near comfortably grow Bismarckias and at nearly exactly 34 degrees latitude, I need at least moderate protection . Or, unless we have one of those "fantasy" type of 9B winters we had a few years ago, but I wont count on that. Even then...

But besides my lamenting, wherever those bismarckias are, they are beautiful- not so much like the Cali' ones, but kudos to being able to grow them where you are.

Edited September 16, 2014 by smithgn

[Kostas 154]

Ah,I see. Good growth for first growing season from ground planting!

From seed,you would just need 3-3,5years to grow one this size in the ground,they are fast!

[Cikas 426]

Cicas, I posted another thread for the highest latitude bismarckia. Please feel free to post some photos, a photo of one of those bismarckia still alive will be a good start, but you need to try to find one that's been around for at least 5 years.

Alex go again to that link I give you.

You have photos of these Bismarckia from 2012, 2013 and 2014.

Like I said America and Europe are two different things. Europe is much hoter than America on the same latitude because of the warm ocean currents. Whole Mediterranean has a mild climate. And very hot summers. We can grow more plant species than America at the same latitude. Mediterranean sea is very hot. For example during summer Adriatic sea can be warm as much as 82.4F. And it emits heat during the winter.

I'am still waiting for posts on which you referred to. That poster said that Dubrovnik and these palms look like Fantasy. So like I said you can not use google translator. It is not accurate. Sentences get completely opposite meaning.

I'm putting together a list of temperatures for the last 4 years in Dubrovnik. I will put them here soon.

So you can compare them to yours.

[Cikas 426]

Ah,I see. Good growth for first growing season from ground planting!

From seed,you would just need 3-3,5years to grow one this size in the ground,they are fast!

Yes they are very fast. Only washingtonia robusta is faster in my garden. My robusta grown almost 20cm in the last 3 months ( it opens new leaf every 7-10 days ).

I hope that mine Bismarckia will look as nice as yours in the next few years.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Brahea Axel 269]

Cicas, I don't see the same bismarckia compared year after year in that thread. if you post 4 years worth of weather data I would still not be convinced, I could post my own last 4 years and it would be very misleading. You need long term averages and extremes, not 4 years of data to determine if a palm is viable. And it's not me you have to convince, it's your bismarckia that you have to convince to keep growing year after year for you.

I am well aware of the differences between Europe and the US. However, my skepticism arises when I look at your particular location, and I compare it to Greece. If Kostas and Constantinos have difficulty growing a particular palm, and they are surrounded by more water than you and they are further South than you where it's much warmer, then it's simply really hard to fathom that you could grow something that they can't. That's where my skepticism comes from. And don't interpret my skepticism as discouragement, quite the contrary, by all means, plant a coconut if you must, I would be very happy for your success, and not the least bit jealous either. I am only jealous of your rich culture and architecture, which we just don't have over here. The hot Summers, that you can keep for yourself. The hottest I am willing to deal with when it comes to gardening is Hawaii's elevations above 800 feet.

Years ago I had to spend the entire month of December in Europe. I spent a lot of time that month to find a place in Europe where I could escape the dreary Winter even just for a few days. So I looked at all the Winter averages. The only place in all of Europe that had Winter averages similar to Southern California was the Canary Islands. All of Greece, Italy, Southern France and Spain are plagued by average December and January lows 12C or worse.

[Brahea Axel 269]

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

[Cikas 426]

Cicas, this is the kind of data that has me much more convinced. This French map of the subtropical zones in the Mediterranean does have your city right in the middle of one.

That's what I'm trying to say. Dubrovnik area is one of the warmest in the entire Mediterranean. It is not all in latitude.

Many different factors are important.

1. The Adriatic Sea is one of the warmest in the entire Mediterranean.

2. Warm ocean currents collide with the coast exactly on the Dubrovnik area.

3. Dubrovnik is located near the very warm adriatic sea.

Also my garden is located in Trsteno ( part of Dubrovnik, more like suburb ). Trsteno ( Cannosa on latin ) is founded by the Romans 1500 years ago. It is founded here because we have huge amount of groundwater and natural springs and very mild climate.

Oldest Arboretum in the world is located here for that reason only.

1912

1928

Edited September 16, 2014 by Cikas

[Rafael 423]

Cikas's bismarckia will laugh with winter cold in dubrovnick.

Mine gets a longer cool winter and still survive easily and looks healthy.

[cheshirepalms 1]

I would imagine the mountains inland protect coastal Croatia from the east which is where in winter the coldest weather is located. On the coast in Croatia the worst Russian arctic blast would be absorbed by the relatively warm sea. It seems a great microclimate in an already mild climate during winter. Places further south in Greece could be more exposed. Its only when you go down as far a Cyprus, Crete that latitude is the sole saviour in the eastern Med.

[Cikas 426]

I would imagine the mountains inland protect coastal Croatia from the east which is where in winter the coldest weather is located. On the coast in Croatia the worst Russian arctic blast would be absorbed by the relatively warm sea. It seems a great microclimate in an already mild climate during winter. Places further south in Greece could be more exposed. Its only when you go down as far a Cyprus, Crete that latitude is the sole saviour in the eastern Med.

It is true. Many southern parts of the Mediterranean are cooler than the Dubrovnik area. Dubrovnik area is actually a huge great microclimate.

[cheshirepalms 1]

I would imagine the mountains inland protect coastal Croatia from the east which is where in winter the coldest weather is located. On the coast in Croatia the worst Russian arctic blast would be absorbed by the relatively warm sea. It seems a great microclimate in an already mild climate during winter. Places further south in Greece could be more exposed. Its only when you go down as far a Cyprus, Crete that latitude is the sole saviour in the eastern Med.

It is true. Many southern parts of the Mediterranean are cooler than the Dubrovnik area. Dubrovnik area is actually a huge great microclimate.

Your climate being mild in winter and hot in summer is no surprise at all to me, or the local improved mirc-oclimate. There are lots of surprises though too, how about the Isles of Scilly In England.

[Cikas 426]

I would imagine the mountains inland protect coastal Croatia from the east which is where in winter the coldest weather is located. On the coast in Croatia the worst Russian arctic blast would be absorbed by the relatively warm sea. It seems a great microclimate in an already mild climate during winter. Places further south in Greece could be more exposed. Its only when you go down as far a Cyprus, Crete that latitude is the sole saviour in the eastern Med.

It is true. Many southern parts of the Mediterranean are cooler than the Dubrovnik area. Dubrovnik area is actually a huge great microclimate.

Your climate being mild in winter and hot in summer is no surprise at all to me, or the local improved mirc-oclimate. There are lots of surprises though too, how about the Isles of Scilly In England.

That is another great example how latitude alone does not mean nothing.

[cheshirepalms 1]

I would imagine the mountains inland protect coastal Croatia from the east which is where in winter the coldest weather is located. On the coast in Croatia the worst Russian arctic blast would be absorbed by the relatively warm sea. It seems a great microclimate in an already mild climate during winter. Places further south in Greece could be more exposed. Its only when you go down as far a Cyprus, Crete that latitude is the sole saviour in the eastern Med.

It is true. Many southern parts of the Mediterranean are cooler than the Dubrovnik area. Dubrovnik area is actually a huge great microclimate.

Your climate being mild in winter and hot in summer is no surprise at all to me, or the local improved mirc-oclimate. There are lots of surprises though too, how about the Isles of Scilly In England.

That is another great example how latitude alone does not mean nothing.

Although this is a cool climate its usually frost free, have you seen the gardens on the Scilly Isles?

[Cikas 426]

I would imagine the mountains inland protect coastal Croatia from the east which is where in winter the coldest weather is located. On the coast in Croatia the worst Russian arctic blast would be absorbed by the relatively warm sea. It seems a great microclimate in an already mild climate during winter. Places further south in Greece could be more exposed. Its only when you go down as far a Cyprus, Crete that latitude is the sole saviour in the eastern Med.

It is true. Many southern parts of the Mediterranean are cooler than the Dubrovnik area. Dubrovnik area is actually a huge great microclimate.

Your climate being mild in winter and hot in summer is no surprise at all to me, or the local improved mirc-oclimate. There are lots of surprises though too, how about the Isles of Scilly In England.

That is another great example how latitude alone does not mean nothing.

Although this is a cool climate its usually frost free, have you seen the gardens on the Scilly Isles?

No, I never seen gardens from Scilly Isles. But I would love to see some of them.

[Cikas 426]

I will also add, according to official temperature data for Dubrovnik. The average absolute minimum temperature for Dubrovnik in the last 10 years is -0.75C ( 30.7F ).

So if we go according to USDA rules. Dubrovnik would be lower USDA 10a.

And that's not even counting the excellent microclimates that various gardens have.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Cikas