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SailorBold

My [(JxB) x B] x B

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SailorBold

Mod Edit: Please note the topic title was changed at the request of the Original Poster.

Here is a pic of a recently planted J X B F3. The palm is located in the center planter.

If I am correct this is J X B X B X B.

post-8989-0-44447800-1406444074_thumb.jp

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Alicehunter2000

I think F2 refers to a JxB that has actually set viable seed....an F3 would be the offspring of that. A "JxB grandchild" so to speak.

What your referring to would be an ((JxB)x B)x B.

The first combo would mean that someone would have had the JxB hybrid many many years ago. It would have been self fertile and then that resultant offspring would have been self fertile to produce your palm. Unlikely.

The second scenario is more likely...but still very uncommon.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about all of this....I am not an expert on this sort of thing.

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SailorBold

lol. Its a Wilcox hybrid. That's all I know.

I am confused and have heard and seen all sorts of descriptions with these hybrids including pictures of them on the internet.

So I give up. Its sperm.

post-8989-0-65690500-1406564061.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Very interesting garden you have there. I assume that is your yard and not a commercial location where you are growing. Very symetrical/geometric. New Mexico....high altitude....cold...dry? ..I would assume the flower beds have some sort of irrigation hence the catchments for conservation of water.... could you give us a little more on your environmental/weather conditions.

Interesting yard and palms.

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SailorBold

Thank you.. finally wanted to do something of my own design and was able to take the time to do it. It is not a commercial area.. pretty much shade tree. I wanted to do something southwestern-ish.

My elevation is 5293'asl.. High Desert- wide swings in temperature with high solar radiation-low humidity and dewpoint. Distinct monsoon season. 7 to 9 inches of moisture per year (1" yesterday) Snow most years trace to average of 8 inches.. but generally winter is the driest time of the year.. mostly radiational frost. Temp 12f to 110f (last year).

My yard has drip irrigation top and lowest level (not sure if you could see in the picture.. there are 3 levels). The only planter in center level where the 'enhanced Jubaea' resides has emitters. No sprays. the level closest to the house is sunken to pool rain water. I still need to add downspouts to divert rain water into this area (its on the to do list)... and that area is equipped with a drain which leads to the 'enhanced butia' on the lowest level.

fun stuff.. Hows the water over there? I would be swimming right about now.

In case you didn't notice I have changed my repertoires. lol

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SailorBold

I took a photo of the trunk base this afternoon 8/14/14. This was how it was when planted. I'm pretty sure if the trunk starts expanding it will show up here where this leaf base has started to split first.

post-8989-0-88744000-1408076733_thumb.jp

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SailorBold

I'm adding these photos for reference. This palm has only been in the ground a short time but there is noticeable spear growth.

post-8989-0-10499800-1409814560_thumb.jp

post-8989-0-53503000-1409814568_thumb.jp

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Brahea Axel

That's a nice looking plant, since it's an F3, there seem to be a lot of possibilities

If it's all open pollinated from F1 down to F3, then it should really be: [(JxB)x(JxB)]x [(JxB)x(JxB)], i.e. self pollinated F2 from a self pollinated F1.

But there are other possibilities:

((JxB) x (JxB) )x J or

((JxB) x (JxB) )x B or

((JxB) x B) x (JxB) x B)) or

((JxB) x J) x (JxB) x J))

etc... Anyway, it's getting too complicated. :)

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SailorBold

Ill slowly read up on this.. perhaps by the time my palms are ready for pollen I will finally understand it and create a hybrid of my own- who knows.

I'm sure its not overly complicated- im jus bein lasy :)

Its super cool is what it is- heh heh

Variability I would think makes it difficult to decipher- although I have been reading older threads to understand its origins.

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SailorBold

Taken this morning..

post-8989-0-12605500-1411488874_thumb.jp

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realarch

That's quite a front yard and at first glance, I too thought it was a commercial planting. Just the fact you have palms growing in Albuq. Is impressive enough let alone the hard scape. Kudos!

No help here on JxB genetics, not much motivation cultivating cold hardy palms in Hilo.

Tim

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SailorBold

Thank you.. yeah I have to stick with the cold tolerant palms. The hardiness on these kinds of hybrid look very promising. I am planning on protection for a few years and then they are on their own.

The growth truly shows vigor.

Jimmy

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Scot from SC

I have a J X B that I ordered from Phil at Jungle Music three years ago. It has been in the ground since then. This hybrid is amazing! It grows much faster than my butias and seems to be even more cold hardy. I recommend them to anyone who wants a hardy feather type palm.

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jfrye01@live.com

Forgive me if I have asked this before, but what zone are you in?

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SailorBold

No problem-

a dry zone 7b/8a.. or a cold 8 microclimate.. Last year the low was 12F(-11C).. the valley next to the river a few miles away was 8F(-13C).

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SailorBold

Pic taken this afternoon Nov. 8 2014

post-8989-0-74818100-1415484341_thumb.jp

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SailorBold

Pic taken today Jan. 6 2015.

post-8989-0-44737600-1420574275_thumb.jp

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Alicehunter2000

That thing is getting fat

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SailorBold

That thing is getting fat

It would appear so... Unfortunately I didn't mark spears to see if there has been any growth there.. but it appears something is going on with root/trunk.

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Bigfish

What you probably have is an F2 offspring from one of Merrill's [(JxB) x B] x B. A few of those palms are fertile and produce viable seeds.

IMG_0196_zps89745dbf.jpg

Yours looks great!

  • Upvote 2

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SailorBold

What you probably have is an F2 offspring from one of Merrill's [(JxB) x B] x B. A few of those palms are fertile and produce viable seeds.

IMG_0196_zps89745dbf.jpg

Yours looks great!

thank you thank you... I wasn't entirely sure of its origin.. this clears up some of the questions I was having. I wish I would be able to go back and change the thread title.

Is that a recent photo of those palms?

Magnificent....

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Bigfish

Yes, the photo was taken last Sunday, 01/04/15.

  • Upvote 1

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SailorBold

Nudder pic... Taken today February 12, 2015

post-8989-0-07137600-1423773667_thumb.jp

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SailorBold

update March 16, 2015

post-8989-0-76459000-1426611068_thumb.jp

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Alicehunter2000

Jimmy, I think I got one of your palms long lost brothers. I believe it is a Merrill (JxB)B x S ............ The Syagrus part was a Tim Hopper cross with Merrill's plant.....given to Mark Heath (yet another hybridizer) who in turn sold it to me. A twisted history for sure. I'll try and post pictures later this summer, its coming back from a spear pull very strong. There was another thread about these triple hybrids using queens....I'll see if I can find it....an interesting thread for sure.

Would ours be half brothers.....different daddy :hmm:

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Sandy Loam

I'm just seeing this thread for the first time. It is interesting that this tree seems to like growing in the winter instead of slowing down.

I have a feeling that this tree is going to be huge in five years.

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SailorBold

Jimmy, I think I got one of your palms long lost brothers. I believe it is a Merrill (JxB)B x S ............ The Syagrus part was a Tim Hopper cross with Merrill's plant.....given to Mark Heath (yet another hybridizer) who in turn sold it to me. A twisted history for sure. I'll try and post pictures later this summer, its coming back from a spear pull very strong. There was another thread about these triple hybrids using queens....I'll see if I can find it....an interesting thread for sure.

Would ours be half brothers.....different daddy :hmm:

Sounds like it.. but for sure still don't 'fully' understand it.. if my palm is actuallyan F2.. who knows past that point? Pollen could have blown in the wind? or a bee?

Neat plants are the result.. A hybridized Mule palm sounds intriguing if I could only find one..I would love to see some pics. I'd try one of those they should be slightly hardier than a typical mule. (guessing)..

On a side note my (jxb)b)b did have a bit of spear damage from winter..it was inside the crown and has since grown out about a foot or so. The tip of one of the fronds is dangling but still green kind of retarded. I hope it will get hardier as it gets older.. trunk is still expanding super thick. We are having an unusually cool spring with lots of rain/t-storms... no real heat yet.

So far so good.

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SailorBold

I'm just seeing this thread for the first time. It is interesting that this tree seems to like growing in the winter instead of slowing down.

I have a feeling that this tree is going to be huge in five years.

Still doing wonderfully.. unusual spring we are having here no heat but lots of rain showers. Its expanded everytime I check on it. Seems to be growing well too but no new leaves opening.. only one since planting it last year but that's it so far.

I hope it will still be here 5 years from now ! Worth a shot... that's my motto!

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SailorBold

Pic taken today May 19th 2015.

post-8989-0-11514200-1432060873_thumb.jp

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Alicehunter2000

What is the history behind Merrill's [(JxB) x B] x B ................. does anyone have a picture of the original JxB? .....was it growing in Florida? The pictures above look a lot like just strait Butia ....what do others see as Jubaea influence?

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Joe NC

I hunted down an F3 of this cross from Gary's Nursery in NC. From the nursery's facebook page, I learned it is an offspring from the Wilcox F2 in Florida. The link will take you Garry's Nursery facebook photo gallery, which has a photo of the original wilcox JXB F2.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.431866996922000.1073741826.104640586311311&type=3

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks Joe, I followed the link .... guess I'm just having a hard time seeing any Jubaea in that palm. We have huge Butia up here....so I'm not sure the size is an indicator. Was Dr. Wilcox convinced of the parentage or was it only speculation?

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Joe NC

From all my internet digging, I think it was grown from seed taken from a known Jubaea x Butia F1 at Fairchild Tropical Gardens. When I went to Garry's nursery, there were maybe 10 of the F3s, and they all were fairly different in appearance. Some were blue, with strongly recurving fronds, some were green, some had wide leaflets, some had narrow leaflets, some had thorns, some had smooth petioles. I know Buita are highly variable, but I don't think they have folded leaflets (beyond where they attach) like Jubaea. So I chose one that was green, and had "V" shaped leaflets.

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My F3, (I planted this during a tropical storm, so I tied and staked it for stability)

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Underside of a Butia leaflet on the left, underside of a leaflet from the F3 hybrid on the right. The Butia is completely flat, and the hybrid is a folded into a "V"

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Alicehunter2000

Interesting. ...I see what you mean.....the only reason I question the original JxB cross is because a very respected source (who I won't name) indicated that they had some lengthy discussions about the original Fairchild palm with Dr. Wilcox .....seems like it was inconclusive as to what the tree actually was....it looked different.....but was the difference actually Jubaea or something else.

I hope it is Jubaea genetics because I paid a bunch for one of the grand babies that was crossed with Syagrus.

post-97-0-90006600-1433855971_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-06622700-1433856028_thumb.jpg

JXBXS or regular mule?

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swolf

Wish we did have a photo of the Fairchild parent but it seems pretty likely it was JXB. Dr. Wilcox said the seed was labeled as "Jubaea" in Fairchilds records. More conclusive evidence comes from the offspring that Dr. Wilcox grew. If you look at the leaves they're flatter than the typical "V" shaped Butia and more rigid (less recurve) -- reflecting Jubaea character.

I suppose more definitive evidence is the high stamen count since pure Butia only has. an average of about six per flower while Jubaea is much higher. Also the fact that Merrills presumed JXB F2 was/is largely self-sterile. I can't think of any other parentage (besides J&B) that would produce an offspring self-sterile yet fertile enough to produce outcrosses the way his palm does. Other combos would be more like mules (almost or completely sterile).

Steve

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Alicehunter2000

Excellent Steve...this was some of the information that was needed. These things you mentioned would all point to Jubaea....I wish Merrill would chime in and give us some more detail. The palm I got came from Mark Heath via Tim Hopper via Merrill. Tim did the last Syagrus cross and there is a thread on PT that shows that a lot of people got seeds from the last cross. Does anyone have this same seed batch cross, who's palm is bigger than mine? Would love to see what can be expected. ((JxB)xB)xS. "Monster Mule" lol

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SailorBold

Pic taken today June 9 2015..

post-8989-0-72371800-1433886986_thumb.jp

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SailorBold

Here is a close-up of some of the frond damage this palm received its first winter.

post-8989-0-92521200-1433887167_thumb.jp

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SailorBold

Here is a J X B newly planted... I spoke with Patric and he said the Butia crosses are more variable color-wise where-as Jubaea crosses tend to take on a more bluish hue. This palm overall out of my other crosses is extremely rough in texture..leaves are very hard.. and have a bluish tint. It reminds me of MattyB's Jubaea hybrid

post-8989-0-50490500-1433887547_thumb.jp

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