Wish me luck on a Lemur in San Diego, any bets?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Duplicate post.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I have one but it's in a pot, and that's where it's gonna stay. In the Winter it will enjoy balmy lows of 65F in the house. Getting excited over a 4" seedling pushing leaves in the Bay area is a bit premature, especially this Summer where the Ocean water temps in Norcal are running 65F and Bay waters are in the 70's. Overnight lows in the Mission District of San Francisco are running in the upper 60's. Even our overnight lows along the coast here are running in the mid 60's. I am really enjoying this Southern California style weather, it's really weird to have a marine layer and have it be in the 70's.

I give Bill's a 70% chance of being alive and growing again by next Summer. Phil of Jungle music managed to keep one alive for quite a while and killed it by having a branch drop on it. I give Jim's 4" seedling a 10% chance of doing the same. And if it was anyone else besides Jim I'd give it 0%, but obviously Jim has pulled some impossible feats.

Okay, I'll take the 10%. It's certainly better than 0%. Over the years I've been told I can't grow Dictosperma, Roystonea, Wodyetia, Gaussia, and on and on and somehow those palms and others, are doing just fine, thank you. I don't listen to that stuff much anymore. If I did, I wouldn't even have Archontophoenix or Bismarckia or Chambeyronea or ANY Dypsis. I'm going out on a limb and giving my Lemur a 50% chance since I'm willing to give it some extra babying this winter that I never give my other palms. Trying and failing is still better than never trying.

Jim, it's one thing to push the envelope in Northern California and grow things that have made it down south but might be a push in Norcal, it's another matter altogether to try to grow things that even the best Southern California growers have trouble with. Lemurophoenix is not comparable to a foxtails, there are mature foxtails in Riverside of all places, so it's not impossible in Norcal. But lemurophoenix is one of those like pritchardia pacifica that even the best have failed at in Socal. I have pritchardia pacifica that grow like weeds here during the Summer, but I am sending mine to a better climate in a couple of weeks. No amount of protecting is going to make a palm survive the Winter if it can't take chill. It's not a matter of frost or freeze, it's a matter of how many hours below 50F you have. The only places where Lemurophoenix has a chance is in the parts of San Diego right next to the Beach where the average Winter low is almost 50F, those places see maybe 10-50 hours of chill per Winter and maybe 5-10 nights per year with overnight lows below 50F.

I actually think you have a shot at trying one out, but not by putting a 4" seedling in the ground. If you raised it in a pot for a couple of years until it's nice and big, then you would have a decent chance. I had a chance with my lastelliana highland form, but I did the dumb move of putting it in the ground way too soon.

c

I am actually trying Marojejya insignis up here, it's a much higher elevation palm than dariani, and reports from Socal are much more favorable. It's definitely a stretch here, so it will probably get a few more years in a pot with bottom heat during the Winter.

Axel, I don't really do pots. Everything in my yard has gone straight in the ground whether it from a fifteen gallon container or more commonly, a liner pot. You probably would be surprised at how many of my big palms were planted in the ground as one leaf seedlings (all my Parajubaea for instance. I was able to keep a Malayan dwarf coconut alive for three years outside by covering the soil to keep it dry in the winter and occasionally draping clear plastic over it on sunny winter days to warm the air around it. It would put out three leaves each summer but stunted and I eventually pulled it. The Dictosperma I have growing comes from a warmer climate than the Lemurophoenix. That's what gave me a title hope. The Lemurophoenix I had inside my house under constant conditions hated the dry air and shrivelled up and croaked. The one outside is about 15" tall and the spear that appeared just two weeks ago is six inches and starting to pop open. The only potted palm I own in an Areca vestiara maroon form that came from Dwitght last year and is doing really well.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I had the exact same philosophy as you, and I have a lot of successes with this approach but I was a lot more conservative with species. Last year, I decided to try out a lot of new things thanks to the readily available Floribunda palms, and I lost about 10%. That 10% would have made it if I waited and grew that stuff to larger sizes. Now I have a small nursery where I am learning to raise palms to larger sizes before I put them in the ground. It's a skill well worth learning because it increases the reaches of what is possible.

The best example I had was euterpe edulis: large 5g specimens made it through Winter with flying colors, whereas the 4" specimens from Floribunda died in the ground by the end of February. A lot of palms that can't take cool soil very well will croak at the 4" stage if planted in the ground, but if you take a 5 or even 15 gallon well rooted specimen and plant it at the beginning of the growing season, by the onset of cold weather the roots go down far enough to be able to continue metabolizing and the palm makes it through the Winter.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I had the exact same philosophy as you, and I have a lot of successes with this approach but I was a lot more conservative with species. Last year, I decided to try out a lot of new things thanks to the readily available Floribunda palms, and I lost about 10%. That 10% would have made it if I waited and grew that stuff to larger sizes. Now I have a small nursery where I am learning to raise palms to larger sizes before I put them in the ground. It's a skill well worth learning because it increases the reaches of what is possible.

The best example I had was euterpe edulis: large 5g specimens made it through Winter with flying colors, whereas the 4" specimens from Floribunda died in the ground by the end of February. A lot of palms that can't take cool soil very well will croak at the 4" stage if planted in the ground, but if you take a 5 or even 15 gallon well rooted specimen and plant it at the beginning of the growing season, by the onset of cold weather the roots go down far enough to be able to continue metabolizing and the palm makes it through the Winter.

I perhaps have warmer wintertime soil than you Axel. I might be wrong. My Lemur palm is in an area where I've never measured the soil temperature below 60F even in December and January and that's six inches down below the surface. The cooler areas of my yard frequently have soil temperatures down to the mid or even low 50s. I've grown a number of tropical palms as small seedlings this way. For instance a Clinostigma ponapence that eventually grew to four feet tall before the '07 freeze that knocked it out. My Euterpe edulis that has been in the ground in my backyard for three years started out as a liner and is almost three feet tall now and very healthy. Years ago, I kept two E. edulis in pots because I thought they were not hardy in my area and they both rotted likely because of the drastically fluctuating soil temperatures inherent with potted specimens left outside even in a green house situation. We all have our own methods and do what works best for ourselves given our microclimates, soil, fertilizing, etc. and our own experimenting.

[BS Man about Palms]

Two things..

First, who is this Dwight I keep hearing of?

Next, as I noted earlier in post 18, I have really had NO winter trouble with these as I keep them on the dry side when cool... the SAME thing I do for the "heeled Dypsis". That's because I think they have similar root growth rates. Once the roots are large enough to absorb a lot of water I give it to them (WHEN I am not busy from work as noted) As many of you have seen in person, or noted here, I REALLY struggle with the heeled Dypsis here ( <---- this is sarcasm if you need it pointed out), As I think back, I have maybe had 7-8 Lemurs and all but ONE I can say passed in March- May, some even after 2 years or so. ALL because I let them dry out in Spring. My struggle I hope will be alleviated by a larger "soil pool", That I can soak when needed and will stay damp at least a few days till I can get back to it. Nearly all my deaths can be traced back to a couple days of 90-100F temps (when I rarely exceed 85F normally) and the little soil pot dries out too quick before I can get back to it after working some 12+ hour days in the heat.

Soooo, I remain convinced that I can grow a Lemur, if not this one.. another robust growing example. To my way of thinking, Jim may have just stumbled on one of those.

You know this just made me think when I used to regularly race (the car in my avatar, and others) and when I drove in large National type events, I used to say to folks my goal was not to win, just "ruin as many peoples day as possible". The translation is I want to prove people wrong when I decide something will work, even as much as I want to succeed doing it..if that makes any sense.

Oh, a third thing... Looking forward to the cream of the crop at Gonzers...

After reading Jims response, I forgot to mention that TWO of the Lemurs that survived a winter or two in my coldframe survived the 2007 freeze! That alone has given me the drive and belief that it can be done!

But, to be fair, I Do have a list of palms that I have that I have tried to grow here and I just don't see how it can be done, see below:

Basselinia tomentosa

end of list.

And I'm not even sure that there is a secret to that waiting to be found yet..

Edited July 22, 2014 by BS Man about Palms

[Moose]

What's all this jibber-jabber about Bill quitting the hobby? The guy takes a hiatus from posting and you guys are ready to throw him a good ol' fashioned Irish wake. Remember what William does for a living then see if maybe he hasn't been a tad busy.

BTW Bill, your Lemur's gonna be a goner by this time next year. Your choice of bromeliad if I'm wrong.

Bill quitting the hobby ? Are you nuts ? Gonz is spot on, Bill has been busy - did you notice any weeds ?

Keep it up Bill !

[Darold Petty]

No one learns anything new by following the conventional wisdom.
I am so old that I remember when no one knew that Dypsis decipiens had any frost hardiness !

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

No one learns anything new by following the conventional wisdom.

I am so old that I remember when no one knew that Dypsis decipiens had any frost hardiness !

I am old enough to remember when queens were thought to be hardy to only 25F. And I am younger than you are.

[BS Man about Palms]

I didn't think this was growing much at all but I noticed it went from a bare spec of a spear to this in 4 months...

SO at least the planting was a success.

If this coming winter is similar to last I think I stand a good chance..

[bgl]

Promising!

[realarch]

Good luck Bill, new leaf looks good.

Tim

[NApalm]

Fingers crossed bill.

[comic097]

Good luck Bill, looking good by the way

[sashaeffer]

Collector of palms here from Nebraska....we just build protection huts when overwintering in the ground and depending on species of palm, have methods for warmth inside that hut as well. Why can't you simply do the same? It wouldn't even have to be elaborate of a hut like we have to build especially since your "winters" are a lot more mild and shorter in duration than ours.

Good luck to you. We need more zone pushers out there to try things and then let others know how they do.

Edited October 21, 2014 by sashaeffer

[BS Man about Palms]

Saw this just a couple days ago. I think its a good sign coming out of winter, yes? (Albeit a fairly mild winter)

[Jim in Los Altos]

That's great, Bill! It's taking hold. I bet you get a few nice fronds during spring through fall. Mine's opening a new red leaf right now and will be ready to photograph in a few days after it finishes unfolding. That's five new leaves since planting it in the ground eight months ago.

I chuckled reading some of the older posts and particularly Axel's that gave mine, at best, a 10% chance at surviving the winter. It opened a new leaf in early December too. I've been watering it almost daily, even in winter. These don't like drying out at all but obviously don't need heat to grow.

Bill, I'm looking forward to more progress shots of yours when that new spear opens!

[BS Man about Palms]

Jim, yours is growing much faster.. I'm not sure if its because mine is slightly larger.. I just think you have a robust, happy specimen!

Cheers to the both of us so far!!

[Josh-O]

Dang!! Now I'm compelled to try this palm one more time Thanks for the boost fellas

[bgl]

Bill,

That looks VERY promising! Especially considering the fact that you're heading for warmer days now. Hope to see some progress reports as time goes by. And you should be able to look forward to this, hopefully in a couple of months at the most. I took this photo last night as one of my Lemurs is opening up a new red spectacular frond.

Bo-Göran

EDIT - no idea why it posted sideways! I sure didn't take the photo sideways, but either way it's just as red!

[Mandrew968]

I thought you quit the palm hobby, glad your still into them.

I thought YOU quit the palm hobby...

[Mandrew968]

That's great, Bill! It's taking hold. I bet you get a few nice fronds during spring through fall. Mine's opening a new red leaf right now and will be ready to photograph in a few days after it finishes unfolding. That's five new leaves since planting it in the ground eight months ago.

I chuckled reading some of the older posts and particularly Axel's that gave mine, at best, a 10% chance at surviving the winter. It opened a new leaf in early December too. I've been watering it almost daily, even in winter. These don't like drying out at all but obviously don't need heat to grow.

Bill, I'm looking forward to more progress shots of yours when that new spear opens!

Honestly, I didn't give much thought to you being able to grow this palm, and the verdict is still out, but hopefully you can and we all learn some about cultural requirements about this one that so few of us have tried. I am sure rooting for it!

[Jim in Los Altos]

That's great, Bill! It's taking hold. I bet you get a few nice fronds during spring through fall. Mine's opening a new red leaf right now and will be ready to photograph in a few days after it finishes unfolding. That's five new leaves since planting it in the ground eight months ago.

I chuckled reading some of the older posts and particularly Axel's that gave mine, at best, a 10% chance at surviving the winter. It opened a new leaf in early December too. I've been watering it almost daily, even in winter. These don't like drying out at all but obviously don't need heat to grow.

Bill, I'm looking forward to more progress shots of yours when that new spear opens!

Honestly, I didn't give much thought to you being able to grow this palm, and the verdict is still out, but hopefully you can and we all learn some about cultural requirements about this one that so few of us have tried. I am sure rooting for it!

Andrew, Everything I'd heard about this palm, before purchasing mine, gave me the impression that they need CONSTANT warmth and tons of water to survive. I found out that it's true about the need for lots of water but the constant warmth part just hasn't proven true at all. Five new leaves in eight months on a 4" pot Lemur in the ground since late spring. The last leaf to fully open was in December and here we are in February and a new red frond in unfurling. I can't expect my cool season loving palms to grow at this rate in the fall and winter. I'll snap a photo this weekend of it. It's loving life here so far.

[Zeeth]

That's great, Bill! It's taking hold. I bet you get a few nice fronds during spring through fall. Mine's opening a new red leaf right now and will be ready to photograph in a few days after it finishes unfolding. That's five new leaves since planting it in the ground eight months ago.

I chuckled reading some of the older posts and particularly Axel's that gave mine, at best, a 10% chance at surviving the winter. It opened a new leaf in early December too. I've been watering it almost daily, even in winter. These don't like drying out at all but obviously don't need heat to grow.

Bill, I'm looking forward to more progress shots of yours when that new spear opens!

Honestly, I didn't give much thought to you being able to grow this palm, and the verdict is still out, but hopefully you can and we all learn some about cultural requirements about this one that so few of us have tried. I am sure rooting for it!

Andrew, Everything I'd heard about this palm, before purchasing mine, gave me the impression that they need CONSTANT warmth and tons of water to survive. I found out that it's true about the need for lots of water but the constant warmth part just hasn't proven true at all. Five new leaves in eight months on a 4" pot Lemur in the ground since late spring. The last leaf to fully open was in December and here we are in February and a new red frond in unfurling. I can't expect my cool season loving palms to grow at this rate in the fall and winter. I'll snap a photo this weekend of it. It's loving life here so far.

I've heard that palms from Floribunda often grow really well their first season because of a sort of momentum that they built up while growing under optimal conditions at Jeff Marcus' place. Could it be possible that that's what you're experiencing?

[Pando]

Jim, from what I've heard, it's not necessarily warmth - it's water and humid air. The foliage in your yard creates a sort of a microclimate for it, and since you're watering often, it's humid enough in a sheltered environment close to the ground between all the other plants. Folks have mentioned here that it hates dry winds, which will be a challenge when it gets larger and more exposed, although in Jim's garden this will probably not going to be that much of an issue.

Looks like it's one of those palms that is not that sensitive to *average* temperature as let's say cocos or lipstick, so as long as it doesn't get to freezing it will probably be ok.

This is awesome though, and I might take a plunge and try one as well as I have a pretty sheltered environment.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I've heard the Floribunda theory too but I've bought a TON of palms from there over the years and none have exhibited any unusual growth speed that wasn't maintained over several years time. All the marginal stuff from there in my garden came to a screeching halt in growth this winter but the Lemur has grown almost as fast as during the warmer months. It's a phenomenal plant.

The other issue of dry winds isn't a climatic trait up here in my area. There are no Santa Ana winds and the prevailing winds are from the northwest in the summer, directly over the warm bay waters to my south bay area garden. When we do get occasional offshore winds and it heats up, the relative humidity doesn't drop enough to affect my garden and, if it did, the heavy planting and several water elements throughout the yard offer lots of protection.

[BS Man about Palms]

I still am worried about overwatering mine Jim, as it was in a big pot. Whereas yours likely had a 4" pot full of roots. That is my favorite time to plant... just as its ready to be "potted up" your Lemur is in the Golden zone and I think stands a good chance.

Glad to see what I had observed over the years to be true... it was not the winter that was an issue for me, it was the transition to summer that was a problem...sooo that being said, the next few months actually concern me more than the last few did!

Lemurs forever!!!!

[Jim in Los Altos]

Okay, I promised to take a few shots of my Lemur palm this weekend and I had a chance before leaving today. It's opening a new leaf and becoming pinnate. The last picture is of it last summer so you can see the growth since then.

today my size 11 shoe young Wodyetia trunk to right and Bentinckia behind

last summer

[JakeK]

Jim that's incredible. Love seeing people pushing the envelope with palms. Only way to really know what is possible.

[Danilopez89]

Bill I showed my 2 1/2 year your Palm and he screamed out "let me see the car". He probably thought it was a hotwheels car.

By the way everyone should be zone pushing at least every once in a while. The makes it that much more fun and interesting. I look forward to seeing the results of experiments and trying new things. Like today I bought some bromalaids that I'm wondering how they will do thru summer.

[BS Man about Palms]

Excellent Jim! I was thinking about your Lemur today and it struck me as exceptionally fast. I think you may have happened upon a superior example and based on my observations of random fare palms at the now defunct "Palm Mountain" nursery I worked at part time.. sometimes you get a gem that is superior and just merely has the will/genes to blow its siblings away. I think You have one and I'm happy to see and hear that. ROCK ON!

Dan... I wanna see my car again too...

[BS Man about Palms]

So here is that little peek of a spear after less than 4 months. While not as fast as Jim's I think its doing decent!

Boy, looking forward to a fine brom over a Gonzers in a few months....hahah

[BS Man about Palms]

Oh yeah, picked up a couple more 1 gal palms to try to increase the gene pool... ?

[Jim in Los Altos]

Looks good, Bill, and yes to buying more. I think you'll see variability in growth speed between them all. Mine slowed a bit this spring. It's been cooler daytime than in the winter! It is opening a new leaf now however and we're looking at warmer days and nights now.

[Gonzer]

So here is that little peek of a spear after less than 4 months. While not as fast as Jim's I think its doing decent!

20150604_182616_resized.jpg

Boy, looking forward to a fine brom over a Gonzers in a few months....hahah

Time for a little midnight gardening.

[Josh-O]

nothing like planting palms in the full moon

[BS Man about Palms]

So here is that little peek of a spear after less than 4 months. While not as fast as Jim's I think its doing decent!

20150604_182616_resized.jpg

Boy, looking forward to a fine brom over a Gonzers in a few months....hahah

Time for a little midnight gardening.

I figured that might be the case... I have guards posted..

[Gonzer]

I'm going to need documentation: month to month photographic evidence of the growth rate (w/a dated newspaper in the shot), atmospheric conditions for the day, caliper readings 2" above ground (again, w/ dated material in shot), length of fronds, two credit cards, drivers license, DNA swab and your firstborn.

[Josh-O]

So here is that little peek of a spear after less than 4 months. While not as fast as Jim's I think its doing decent!

20150604_182616_resized.jpg

Boy, looking forward to a fine brom over a Gonzers in a few months....hahah

Time for a little midnight gardening.

I figured that might be the case... I have guards posted..

lol....

[Josh-O]

I'm going to need documentation: month to month photographic evidence of the growth rate (w/a dated newspaper in the shot), atmospheric conditions for the day, caliper readings 2" above ground (again, w/ dated material in shot), length of fronds, two credit cards, drivers license, DNA swab and your firstborn.

what he said...lol

[Gonzer]

Oh, and William? Since I gave up bromeliads for Lent the offer now is you can have the pick-o-the-litter of my new passion---geraniums!