Which palms can take gray water?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

With the water rationing in full swing, we're making use of every last drop of water. This means all the gray water from the house is going on my palms. Does anyone have any experience with which palms are tolerant of gray water? My approach is to create a guess list of what can and cannot take gray water, and I am watering accordingly. It would be great to hear from other folks on the subject. The biggest issue with gray water is the added lime from soap, so any palms that don't like alkalinity are on my no-gray-water list.

Here's my preliminary list: the ones I really don't know about are the New Caledonia palms, all the discussions on acidity versus alkalinity are all over the map in all the discussions, I've not heard a single good summary, but I would put them on the "hate gray water" category.

Now just because I write a guess-list doesn't imply I know what I am talking about, it's just a strawman and I am asking for feedback. I'd rather not find out too late that something I am watering with gray water hates it.

Palms that like Gray water

• brahea
• sabal
• chamaedorea
• trachycarpus

Palms that tolerate gray water

• parajubaea
• livistona
• phoenix
• chuniophoenix
• allagoptera
• butia
• jubaea
• jubaeopsis
• archontophoenix
• trithrinax
• kentia

Palms that hate gray water

• syagrus
• dypsis
• licuala
• beccariophoenix
• euterpe
• ceroxylon
• hedyscepe
• arenga

[KennyRE317]

great topic! ... with summer on the horizon and random heat waves already I had this thought a couple of months ago and how I'm going to need to lower the water usage to the garden via irrigation and reuse water from the house if possible

[DoomsDave]

So far, my B. alfredii don't seem to mind the gray water at all. My washer dumps water right near them and did long before they were planted. Away they grow.

Roystonea borenquenia doesn't seem to mind, either.

Not so sure about the others.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

So far, my B. alfredii don't seem to mind the gray water at all. My washer dumps water right near them and did long before they were planted. Away they grow.

Roystonea borenquenia doesn't seem to mind, either.

Not so sure about the others.

Thanks! I like to water my alfredii a lot, so this is great.

[Small palm]

Great question Axel, I wonder about this too. I saw a friend of mine collecting grey water from their washer in a large bucket. She told me it was for her plants and I was wondering if it would be safe.

[richnorm]

Dunno but if you want to water veggies switch to an eco washing powder. I use the kids bath water on dypsis and hedyscepe with no problems- and it's pretty rank sometimes!

[Jonathan]

All you need is a reed bed filter and you can water anything with grey water because it will be very effectively cleaned.

My system is 3 concrete beds 2m x 2m x 500mm deep, grey water goes into the top bed and gravity feeds through the lower beds and then into a holding tank.

The water comes out crystal clear and reed growth in the lower bed is almost zero because by that stage all the nutrients have been removed.

Reed beds can be made from any water proof container filled with clean 20mm crushed rock and planted with non-running reeds (ie not invasive).

There's no reason that it cant be an attractive landscape feature if well designed!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

All you need is a reed bed filter and you can water anything with grey water because it will be very effectively cleaned.

My system is 3 concrete beds 2m x 2m x 500mm deep, grey water goes into the top bed and gravity feeds through the lower beds and then into a holding tank.

The water comes out crystal clear and reed growth in the lower bed is almost zero because by that stage all the nutrients have been removed.

Reed beds can be made from any water proof container filled with clean 20mm crushed rock and planted with non-running reeds (ie not invasive).

There's no reason that it cant be an attractive landscape feature if well designed!

Cheers,

Jonathan

I thought about it, it's not a bad idea. The only challenge is space. I wouldn't mind the the water feature but it would mean having to get yet another tank and pump because the tank would have to be at the very bottom of our property. How much maintenance do these things need?

[marinkeith]

The arenga micanthra's roots grew into the grey water pipes from the shower and prevented any other plants from sharing in the water. Just dug it up last week and am in the process of some reengineering to provide more equitable distribution. I can't say about other arengas, but the micanthra certainly thrived. In 5 years it went from about 3 or 4 feet to 10 foot plus. - Keith

[_Keith]

All grey water is not equal. Using the proper soaps and other products, I doubt anything would have an issue with grey water. But I guess phosphorous/phosphates would be the thing to watch.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

All grey water is not equal. Using the proper soaps and other products, I doubt anything would have an issue with grey water. But I guess phosphorous/phosphates would be the thing to watch.

Good point, we use only phosphate-free stuff, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[Jonathan]

All you need is a reed bed filter and you can water anything with grey water because it will be very effectively cleaned.

My system is 3 concrete beds 2m x 2m x 500mm deep, grey water goes into the top bed and gravity feeds through the lower beds and then into a holding tank.

The water comes out crystal clear and reed growth in the lower bed is almost zero because by that stage all the nutrients have been removed.

Reed beds can be made from any water proof container filled with clean 20mm crushed rock and planted with non-running reeds (ie not invasive).

There's no reason that it cant be an attractive landscape feature if well designed!

Cheers,

Jonathan

I thought about it, it's not a bad idea. The only challenge is space. I wouldn't mind the the water feature but it would mean having to get yet another tank and pump because the tank would have to be at the very bottom of our property. How much maintenance do these things need?

Not much maintenance required if you plant the right species!

Which I didn't at first, so I had to pull it all out and start again...nothing with running rhizomes basically is the golden rule for my money.

Design of inlet pipe is also important - a filter to settle out solids is not a bad idea but not totally necessary.

As to what goes into it - avoid the kitchen sink would be my advice, dish washing detergent, even the so called safe ones are bad news generally.

Ours only has the bath and shower at the moment but I'd be happy to add the laundry at some stage.

If you designed it carefully I cant see any reason why you couldn't plant some tough palms along the uphill edge and allow their roots to roam into the reed bed, killing two birds with one stone.

I reckon most Livistona's would relish a position like that. Maybe Sabals, etc.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

I would run grey water through one of those cheap above ground swimming pool filters to a tank.

Then adjust the ph using ph up/down chemical from the hydro shop.

[DoomsDave]

All grey water is not equal. Using the proper soaps and other products, I doubt anything would have an issue with grey water. But I guess phosphorous/phosphates would be the thing to watch.

Last I heard phosphates in detergents were banned about 40 years ago.

[_Keith]

I ran across this article today. Looks pretty down to earth, but I did no fact checking.

http://oasisdesign.net/greywater/misinfo/

[_Keith]

All grey water is not equal. Using the proper soaps and other products, I doubt anything would have an issue with grey water. But I guess phosphorous/phosphates would be the thing to watch.

Last I heard phosphates in detergents were banned about 40 years ago.

Dave, you prompted me to do a little Googling. It seems that phosphates have been alive and well in detergents for the last 40 years and the first serious "voluntary" effort to remove them started in 2010. However, from at least one of these sites it also appears that the voluntary effort is still underway for some products as January of this this year. And this is for the major products, so I suspect some of the off brands and foreign produced brands may still be lagging behind on this effort. But that is just a suspicion. I pretend to be no expert on this.

Oh, and what was particularly interesting was folks now starting to use TSP to enhance these phosphate free detergents because their cleaning power is clearly inferior to previous phosphate containing products.

• http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/full_text_search/AllCRCDocs/94-54.htm
• http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072122/it-s-not-your-fault-your-dishes-are-still-dirty
• http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/finally-detergent-industry-puts-voluntary-ban-on-phosphates-in-household-dishwasher-detergents.html
• http://www.environmentalleader.com/2014/01/27/pg-to-end-use-of-phosphates-in-laundry-detergents/

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I ran across this article today. Looks pretty down to earth, but I did no fact checking.

http://oasisdesign.net/greywater/misinfo/

The entire site is an ad for the authors' books. It sheds little light on what you should do. It basically says 'don't do all these things and buy our books so you can figure out what you should do.

I store the gray water and use it as supplemental irrigation to my drip. No pumps, no purification, just stinky gross gray water. It's full of germs and bacteria and the plants love it. After a couple of days of brewing, no viruses can survive, but obviously there are plenty of nasty bacteria and I would never put it on my veggies.

[_Keith]

I ran across this article today. Looks pretty down to earth, but I did no fact checking.

http://oasisdesign.net/greywater/misinfo/

The entire site is an ad for the authors' books. It sheds little light on what you should do. It basically says 'don't do all these things and buy our books so you can figure out what you should do.

I store the gray water and use it as supplemental irrigation to my drip. No pumps, no purification, just stinky gross gray water. It's full of germs and bacteria and the plants love it. After a couple of days of brewing, no viruses can survive, but obviously there are plenty of nasty bacteria and I would never put it on my veggies.

Everything he said made sense to me as stated. I didn't even notice he sold books. Not sure why anyone would need one on so simple a subject....

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Keith, what you said is my point, I don't need them telling me this stuff and I don't need their book.

I just spent a lot of time designing a whole system around rain catchment. Because of the $50/unit penalty to go over, a water leak could easily lead to a $5,000 water bill. So even during the Summer when the catchment system produces little water, I have to irrigate off the tank system. It's not gray water, but I did consider pumping gray water into it. I decided against it for all the reasons mentioned in the article. But I do have the ability to dump the gray water onto our upper garden and collect the filtered water down below as it percolates through the top soil and french drain system. That water is a lot cleaner.

[_Keith]

Keith, what you said is my point, I don't need them telling me this stuff and I don't need their book.

I just spent a lot of time designing a whole system around rain catchment. Because of the $50/unit penalty to go over, a water leak could easily lead to a $5,000 water bill. So even during the Summer when the catchment system produces little water, I have to irrigate off the tank system. It's not gray water, but I did consider pumping gray water into it. I decided against it for all the reasons mentioned in the article. But I do have the ability to dump the gray water onto our upper garden and collect the filtered water down below as it percolates through the top soil and french drain system. That water is a lot cleaner.

Maybe you should write a book,

[Jonathan]

He doesn't seem to say so much about what you should do, so much as what you shouldn't.

It seems like a storm in a tea cup. Grey water is safe if biologically filtered, and its a pretty simple process.

If you pump it untreated onto your garden, you're gonna get problems.

Don't over think it.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

He doesn't seem to say so much about what you should do, so much as what you shouldn't.

It seems like a storm in a tea cup. Grey water is safe if biologically filtered, and its a pretty simple process.

If you pump it untreated onto your garden, you're gonna get problems.

Don't over think it.

What sort of problems?

[Hammer]

He doesn't seem to say so much about what you should do, so much as what you shouldn't.

It seems like a storm in a tea cup. Grey water is safe if biologically filtered, and its a pretty simple process.

If you pump it untreated onto your garden, you're gonna get problems.

Don't over think it.

Are you talking about biofiltration as in the nitrification cycle you need when operating in a closed aquarium system?

If that is what you mean, the only point in the cycle where I have experienced issues with plants is during a massive ammonia spike. And only with aquatic plants submerged in the water.

[Jonathan]

I'm talking about the biological removal of all nutrients, solids and bacteria from the waste water cycle. The aim being to produce a nearly pure irrigation water.

My understanding of the process is that the reeds take up nutrients (phosphates, nitrates, etc.) directly from the grey water through their root system, and the bacteria, algae and other micro organisms which live in the substrate attack and break down bacteria such as e. coli. Ph buffering seems to be a natural side effect of wetland environments which is one of the reasons they are traditionally used for the tertiary treatment of sewerage.

So a reed bed type Bio Filter can reduce or correct the following grey water issues: build up of nutrients, ph imbalance, e. coli loads, water repellent soil due to soap scum, blocked irrigation pipes & drippers from water borne solids...etc.

If nutrient loads were the only problem, you wouldn't have to worry as much, but its the other stuff that comes with it that causes problems.

Here's a photo of my reed bed, it was only re-planted about two months ago after the removal of all running rhizome reeds. You can see that the top bed has the best growth, the second a little less (it needs weeding!) and the lowest is open water at the moment - I left it like that to see if any animals would colonize it, which they did - frogs, snails, water bugs, mozzies! In the past the lowest bed had almost zero reed growth due to lack of nutrients, but I will fill it in and replant it to get rid of the mosquitoes...

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

That looks nice. I will eventually try to make one, but for now, I am opting for storage and manual dissemination. I'll probably deal with some soap scum issues, and since I am not hitting edibles, E-coli should not be an issue. I have no idea where I would even put something in the size of what you have because I don't really have room.

[Jonathan]

Mine is probably twice as big as it needs to be...hence the poor growth in the lowest bed.

But size is always an issue on a small block.

[_Keith]

Oh man, that reminds me of a photo I saved from a while back.

Hmm, let's see, here we go.

Or you could do this, even better

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Mine is probably twice as big as it needs to be...hence the poor growth in the lowest bed.

But size is always an issue on a small block.

I spent some time doing research. For the time being, I am going to use a 40 gallon drum and build a sand filter - pea gravel at the bottom, a koi pond filter sandwiched between two layers terry cloth, 4 inches of sand, then another koi pond filter sandwiched in between two layers of terry cloth. That should more than take care of the filtering needs. I could even add a layer of charcoal at the top to get rid of more of the organics.

Since I have a nice steep hillside, I will let gravity push the water through the filter. That way at least it will be a lot cleaner for re-use. Eventually, I'll add a reed bed below the storage tank to let the water percolate in the main rain catchment tank. From there, it goes through a sand filter into the booster pump and then into the irrigation after two more filters (disk + screen).

[Jonathan]

Oh man, that reminds me of a photo I saved from a while back.

Hmm, let's see, here we go.

545884_10150698196472436_1761977150_n.jpg

Or you could do this, even better

392457_277746422330134_205389470_n.jpg

Thats very nice Keith...with a bit of imagination these things can be a feature as well as useful.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jonathan, have you looked at the biosteps pond filters that use matala filters? This is much more compact than an enormous reed bed and does effectivley the same thing. The filters are vertical and with intermittant flow, there is over 200 square feet of surface for beneficial bacteria. The water coming out the other end can be UV treated. This is the gray water treatment system I am building, it will make it possible to route the water into my irrigation storage tanks without ending up with water that has gone anaerobic. The beauty of this system is that it's not only easy to clean, but it can even process kitchen sink water thanks to the wood chips that absorb the oils and surfactants. Best of all, when cleaning the system, the resulting sludge can be used in the garden on palms that thrive on rocks like brahea.

[LJG]

I'm talking about the biological removal of all nutrients, solids and bacteria from the waste water cycle. The aim being to produce a nearly pure irrigation water.

My understanding of the process is that the reeds take up nutrients (phosphates, nitrates, etc.) directly from the grey water through their root system, and the bacteria, algae and other micro organisms which live in the substrate attack and break down bacteria such as e. coli. Ph buffering seems to be a natural side effect of wetland environments which is one of the reasons they are traditionally used for the tertiary treatment of sewerage.

So a reed bed type Bio Filter can reduce or correct the following grey water issues: build up of nutrients, ph imbalance, e. coli loads, water repellent soil due to soap scum, blocked irrigation pipes & drippers from water borne solids...etc.

If nutrient loads were the only problem, you wouldn't have to worry as much, but its the other stuff that comes with it that causes problems.

Here's a photo of my reed bed, it was only re-planted about two months ago after the removal of all running rhizome reeds. You can see that the top bed has the best growth, the second a little less (it needs weeding!) and the lowest is open water at the moment - I left it like that to see if any animals would colonize it, which they did - frogs, snails, water bugs, mozzies! In the past the lowest bed had almost zero reed growth due to lack of nutrients, but I will fill it in and replant it to get rid of the mosquitoes...

P1100238.JPG

Cheers,

Jonathan

Nice work Jonathan. I have always thought of something like this tied into a Koi pond to filter the poor well water we have here. By that third tier in yours it should be clean enough for fish? Mosquito fish at least?

[MattyB]

Why would you have E. coli in grey water? Are you using effluent from you septic tank?

[Jonathan]

Every human, whether we like to admit it or not, has to crap every now and then, and no matter how meticulous one is in the cleanup process, there will always be some bacteria left in some crack or crevasse of your anatomy.

The next time you have a bath or a shower that bacteria will find it's way into the waste water...and hey presto! E. coli.

That's one of the main arguments for not using untreated grey water on food crops.

[Jonathan]

I'm talking about the biological removal of all nutrients, solids and bacteria from the waste water cycle. The aim being to produce a nearly pure irrigation water.

My understanding of the process is that the reeds take up nutrients (phosphates, nitrates, etc.) directly from the grey water through their root system, and the bacteria, algae and other micro organisms which live in the substrate attack and break down bacteria such as e. coli. Ph buffering seems to be a natural side effect of wetland environments which is one of the reasons they are traditionally used for the tertiary treatment of sewerage.

So a reed bed type Bio Filter can reduce or correct the following grey water issues: build up of nutrients, ph imbalance, e. coli loads, water repellent soil due to soap scum, blocked irrigation pipes & drippers from water borne solids...etc.

If nutrient loads were the only problem, you wouldn't have to worry as much, but its the other stuff that comes with it that causes problems.

Here's a photo of my reed bed, it was only re-planted about two months ago after the removal of all running rhizome reeds. You can see that the top bed has the best growth, the second a little less (it needs weeding!) and the lowest is open water at the moment - I left it like that to see if any animals would colonize it, which they did - frogs, snails, water bugs, mozzies! In the past the lowest bed had almost zero reed growth due to lack of nutrients, but I will fill it in and replant it to get rid of the mosquitoes...

P1100238.JPG

Cheers,

Jonathan

Nice work Jonathan. I have always thought of something like this tied into a Koi pond to filter the poor well water we have here. By that third tier in yours it should be clean enough for fish? Mosquito fish at least?

Thanks Len - yeah I was kind of curious about fish, which is one of the reasons I left the last tier as open water after removing the running reeds to see what the water quality would be like.

But I think at the moment there is not yet enough reed growth for complete filtration, so until the young plants fill the top two beds completely it's too early to judge.

I reckon that if any fish could survive in there it would be Koi or other carp species - they seem to be very resilient to poor water quality. Your idea sounds like a good one to me.

Unfortunately evaporation from the lower pond is high enough in summer that it's wasteful and probably works against my primary motivation which is to save water to give to my palms!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, have you looked at the biosteps pond filters that use matala filters? This is much more compact than an enormous reed bed and does effectivley the same thing. The filters are vertical and with intermittant flow, there is over 200 square feet of surface for beneficial bacteria. The water coming out the other end can be UV treated. This is the gray water treatment system I am building, it will make it possible to route the water into my irrigation storage tanks without ending up with water that has gone anaerobic. The beauty of this system is that it's not only easy to clean, but it can even process kitchen sink water thanks to the wood chips that absorb the oils and surfactants. Best of all, when cleaning the system, the resulting sludge can be used in the garden on palms that thrive on rocks like brahea.

Hi Axel,

That looks like a very neat little system for a small area.

I've got no idea whether it will work or not, but have to assume that it will, or else nobody would buy/build them.

If you reuse the wood chips on your garden, is that not the same as pumping raw grey water on?

Would you maybe want to compost it first? - just thinking out loud.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Walter John]

Hello from Florida, I saw this thread and thought I'd like to add some of my experience. I used my Washing Machine grey water for many years not long after I first began palm growing. We were in a drought and I had to do something, I researched firstly and discovered that the phosphorous free powder we were using was better than the other way round. I didn't use it on all palms, mostly on a Roystonea violacea and two Clinostigmas after being advised that they responded well with ample watering. I also used it on Latanias and at times on all my palms and plants but mostly the above.

The results were nothing short of magical, enormous benefits but let me say this. We did get some light showers from time to time and I used bulk mulch.

Later.

[rprimbs]

I used to water everything at my parents house with grey water from their showers, washing machine, and even the kitchen sink (Which was a mistake because it ultimately clogged the system). The only problem was when my mom would use bleach in the washing machine -- and the plants would look a bit wilted after that. But then they would come right back.

[rprimbs]

Why would you have E. coli in grey water? Are you using effluent from you septic tank?

Yeah, I think that they are thinking about using "black water" from the toilet. That is a bad Idea, I would think.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jonathan, have you looked at the biosteps pond filters that use matala filters? This is much more compact than an enormous reed bed and does effectivley the same thing. The filters are vertical and with intermittant flow, there is over 200 square feet of surface for beneficial bacteria. The water coming out the other end can be UV treated. This is the gray water treatment system I am building, it will make it possible to route the water into my irrigation storage tanks without ending up with water that has gone anaerobic. The beauty of this system is that it's not only easy to clean, but it can even process kitchen sink water thanks to the wood chips that absorb the oils and surfactants. Best of all, when cleaning the system, the resulting sludge can be used in the garden on palms that thrive on rocks like brahea.

Hi Axel,

That looks like a very neat little system for a small area.

I've got no idea whether it will work or not, but have to assume that it will, or else nobody would buy/build them.

If you reuse the wood chips on your garden, is that not the same as pumping raw grey water on?

Would you maybe want to compost it first? - just thinking out loud.

Cheers,

Jonathan

The wood chips are to remove the oils so that the filter lasts longer. The idea behind building this system is to get storable gray water that I can feed into my drip system as needed.

[_Keith]

All grey water is not equal. Using the proper soaps and other products, I doubt anything would have an issue with grey water. But I guess phosphorous/phosphates would be the thing to watch.

Last I heard phosphates in detergents were banned about 40 years ago.

Dave, you prompted me to do a little Googling. It seems that phosphates have been alive and well in detergents for the last 40 years and the first serious "voluntary" effort to remove them started in 2010. However, from at least one of these sites it also appears that the voluntary effort is still underway for some products as January of this this year. And this is for the major products, so I suspect some of the off brands and foreign produced brands may still be lagging behind on this effort. But that is just a suspicion. I pretend to be no expert on this.

Oh, and what was particularly interesting was folks now starting to use TSP to enhance these phosphate free detergents because their cleaning power is clearly inferior to previous phosphate containing products.

• http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/full_text_search/AllCRCDocs/94-54.htm
• http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072122/it-s-not-your-fault-your-dishes-are-still-dirty
• http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/finally-detergent-industry-puts-voluntary-ban-on-phosphates-in-household-dishwasher-detergents.html
• http://www.environmentalleader.com/2014/01/27/pg-to-end-use-of-phosphates-in-laundry-detergents/

After reading in one of the links above that some people were adding TSP to their detergents, I remembered I had some TSP out in the barn left over from an old painting project. So as a follow-up to this I did a little fun one-time experiment. I added 1 teaspoon of TSP to one dishwasher load, and one tablespoon to a clothes wash load. In the dishwasher load the difference was notable. In the clothes wash load the difference was incredible. So, I now understand the industries past resistance to removing phosphates from detergents.