Jump to content
Alicehunter2000

Most Northerly area of Florida Considered Zone 10b,10a, and 9b

Recommended Posts

naraj

I'm definitely no expert on Orlando's temperatures, but I have noticed it looks way less tropical there than St. Petersburg south, I mean 1 or 2 growing zones different. That being said, Eric at Leu Gardens seems to be able to grow some pretty tropical stuff there, so who knows. The reason I'm pretty confident about the weather from St. Pete to Ft. Myers on the gulf coast, as well as Palm Beach County, is because on cold nights, I stay up late and compare their real-time temps from all the user-submitted weather stations on Wunderground, and although it may not be 'scientific' or 100% accurate, they consistently show the same noticeably different temperature patterns for the various areas, depending on how much wind there is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jimbean

I'm definitely no expert on Orlando's temperatures, but I have noticed it looks way less tropical there than St. Petersburg south, I mean 1 or 2 growing zones different. That being said, Eric at Leu Gardens seems to be able to grow some pretty tropical stuff there, so who knows. The reason I'm pretty confident about the weather from St. Pete to Ft. Myers on the gulf coast, as well as Palm Beach County, is because on cold nights, I stay up late and compare their real-time temps from all the user-submitted weather stations on Wunderground, and although it may not be 'scientific' or 100% accurate, they consistently show the same noticeably different temperature patterns for the various areas, depending on how much wind there is.

I do the same thing, and I have good knowledge of Brevard, Indian River, St. Lucie, and Martin counties, and most of Orange and Seminole counties.

As for Orlando, it is really a warm 9B, the metro area long term averages something like 30F to 31F. The areas around that average something like 26F to 30F.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jimbean

I am doing a map of Orange and Seminole counties. I have a workload for the next two weeks, so we will see how much spare time I am going to have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alicehunter2000

Nice to see my thread still going....jeez...I should get an award or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
naraj

LOL @ Alicehunter2000. I suspect Jimbean is probably correct about Orlando, city and metro. Just my opinion, though.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
palmsOrl

I can't wait to see the latest version of the maps for Orange and Seminole counties. Thank you for all the time and energy to do this Jim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt

Today I took a drive up on the ridge (Lake Wales Ridge) into town (Lake Placid, Florida) and decided to check out some of the few coconut palms growing there. I maintain that most winters the town is a solid USDA zone 10b. I know for a fact that two of the coconut palms growing there have been there for 15 years. In 2010 these palms were hurt, but mostly from prolonged cold. They were not totally defoliated as I have photos of them. They did look like they were suffering from manganese and/or boron deficiency, but they grew out of it.

I wrote an article back in 2014 in the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society's Palmateer magazine (now an online publication) of my experiences with temperature gradients on the ridge. One winter morning (on a radiational cooling morning) my wife left for work around 6:30 a.m. and her car thermometer read 31 degrees at the head of our driveway. She was in communication with me, both on or cell phones. As she started up the ridge to US 27 the temperature rose little by little, as she read off 32, 33, 34, etc., until she got to the top of the ridge where her thermometer read 39 degrees. I estimate that 95% of our coldest mornings here in Lake Placid are radiational cooling events, thus there is a marked air stratification, with the warmest air being at the higher points on the ridge. Also, the town of Lake Placid is surrounded by 12 lakes. The relative warm air off these lakes waft up on the ridge, which also helps. What chaps my butt now is that I had a chance to buy 5 acres up on the ridge between Lake June and Placid Lake (2nd and 3rd respectively largest lakes in Highlands County) back in 1997 when I moved here, but I had no idea at the time the value (warmer at night) of higher ground, plus I had no idea I would fall head over heels in the palm and tropical plant growing hobby. I could still buy some high ground property now, but I'm too old now to start over. Wife says we aren't going anywhere -- and she's right.

Lake%20Placid%20coconut%20palm_zpshm3k73

Lake%20Placid%20Coconut%20palm%202_zpsv4

Lake%20Placid%20coconut%20palms_zps8atsx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Coconut Palm

Absolutely beautiful Jamaican Talls, with nuts in interior Florida!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zeeth

Absolutely beautiful Jamaican Talls, with nuts in interior Florida!

They look more like Maypans to me...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ed in Houston

Today I took a drive up on the ridge (Lake Wales Ridge) into town (Lake Placid, Florida) and decided to check out some of the few coconut palms growing there. I maintain that most winters the town is a solid USDA zone 10b. I know for a fact that two of the coconut palms growing there have been there for 15 years. In 2010 these palms were hurt, but mostly from prolonged cold. They were not totally defoliated as I have photos of them. They did look like they were suffering from manganese and/or boron deficiency, but they grew out of it.

I wrote an article back in 2014 in the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society's Palmateer magazine (now an online publication) of my experiences with temperature gradients on the ridge. One winter morning (on a radiational cooling morning) my wife left for work around 6:30 a.m. and her car thermometer read 31 degrees at the head of our driveway. She was in communication with me, both on or cell phones. As she started up the ridge to US 27 the temperature rose little by little, as she read off 32, 33, 34, etc., until she got to the top of the ridge where her thermometer read 39 degrees. I estimate that 95% of our coldest mornings here in Lake Placid are radiational cooling events, thus there is a marked air stratification, with the warmest air being at the higher points on the ridge. Also, the town of Lake Placid is surrounded by 12 lakes. The relative warm air off these lakes waft up on the ridge, which also helps. What chaps my butt now is that I had a chance to buy 5 acres up on the ridge between Lake June and Placid Lake (2nd and 3rd respectively largest lakes in Highlands County) back in 1997 when I moved here, but I had no idea at the time the value (warmer at night) of higher ground, plus I had no idea I would fall head over heels in the palm and tropical plant growing hobby. I could still buy some high ground property now, but I'm too old now to start over. Wife says we aren't going anywhere -- and she's right.

I have done the same thing Walt, driving around Houston and monitoring my car's thermometer reading. The Houston terrain is flat but there are local areas that show some local variation and across the town there are warm areas like downtown and toward Galveston Bay. The best time to do this is on clear cold windless nights, when radiational effects are maximized.

One night a few years ago I was driving 50 miles WNW of Austin Texas in the Texas Hill Country on a clear calm winter night at about 4am. It was amazing to see 6-8 degree temperature changes going up and down and around the hills. Austin is in zone 8b and the western side of town is very hilly. I would bet that there are 9a climates in spots on the western side of town.

Ed in Houston

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Walt

Today I took a drive up on the ridge (Lake Wales Ridge) into town (Lake Placid, Florida) and decided to check out some of the few coconut palms growing there. I maintain that most winters the town is a solid USDA zone 10b. I know for a fact that two of the coconut palms growing there have been there for 15 years. In 2010 these palms were hurt, but mostly from prolonged cold. They were not totally defoliated as I have photos of them. They did look like they were suffering from manganese and/or boron deficiency, but they grew out of it.

I wrote an article back in 2014 in the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society's Palmateer magazine (now an online publication) of my experiences with temperature gradients on the ridge. One winter morning (on a radiational cooling morning) my wife left for work around 6:30 a.m. and her car thermometer read 31 degrees at the head of our driveway. She was in communication with me, both on or cell phones. As she started up the ridge to US 27 the temperature rose little by little, as she read off 32, 33, 34, etc., until she got to the top of the ridge where her thermometer read 39 degrees. I estimate that 95% of our coldest mornings here in Lake Placid are radiational cooling events, thus there is a marked air stratification, with the warmest air being at the higher points on the ridge. Also, the town of Lake Placid is surrounded by 12 lakes. The relative warm air off these lakes waft up on the ridge, which also helps. What chaps my butt now is that I had a chance to buy 5 acres up on the ridge between Lake June and Placid Lake (2nd and 3rd respectively largest lakes in Highlands County) back in 1997 when I moved here, but I had no idea at the time the value (warmer at night) of higher ground, plus I had no idea I would fall head over heels in the palm and tropical plant growing hobby. I could still buy some high ground property now, but I'm too old now to start over. Wife says we aren't going anywhere -- and she's right.

I have done the same thing Walt, driving around Houston and monitoring my car's thermometer reading. The Houston terrain is flat but there are local areas that show some local variation and across the town there are warm areas like downtown and toward Galveston Bay. The best time to do this is on clear cold windless nights, when radiational effects are maximized.

One night a few years ago I was driving 50 miles WNW of Austin Texas in the Texas Hill Country on a clear calm winter night at about 4am. It was amazing to see 6-8 degree temperature changes going up and down and around the hills. Austin is in zone 8b and the western side of town is very hilly. I would bet that there are 9a climates in spots on the western side of town.

Ed in Houston

Ed: Usually, on the coldest radiational cooling nights our local meteorologist will give a report typically calling for, say, 30 low ground and 37 high ground, etc. I've lived here since 1997 and my coldest advective night was only 29 degrees, back in December of 2003. It's the radiational cooling nights that are the coldest for me. I had a low of 20.8 (my all-time low) in December of 2010. But up in town was at least 10 degrees warmer, as I rode up there and papaya plant leaves weren't damaged.

But out here in the deepest inland south central Florida, low ground can get very cold. In fact, about 10 miles south of me is an anomaly kind of area (Archbold Biological Station and immediate surrounding area) that is now rated USDA zone 9a (and I think that is conservative; I believe it's closer to 8b). Yet, on many occasions they've had lows in the mid teens, with 13 degrees being their all-time lowest record. Out here high ground and proximity to a large lake makes all the difference in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Coconut Palm

Keith,

You may be right. You guys in Florida have a lot more experience with Maypans. Maybe Walt knows since they are in his neck of the woods.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Coconut Palm

Walt, thanks for the informative brochure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Similar Content

    • kinzyjr
      By kinzyjr
      NOAA makes weather records from the Florida stations available to download for free.  Out of the 1,700+ stations, 358 contain at least some temperature data.  If one were to download all of these records, import them into a database, and use some crafty SQL queries to generate sheets for each of the impact freezes it would provide a really good side-by-side resource to compare the microclimates in each region of Florida.
      That is exactly what has been done with the 0000_202011040720_F_SQL_v2.xlsx spreadsheet attached to this post.  Each tab in the spreadsheet contains records for one of our unfortunate cold events.  The records come sorted first by the TAG column, which represents one of the areas in the pictures and is defined by a set of latitude and longitude boundaries.  A second sort is by the station name alphabetically.  This gives you a region of weather stations sorted alphabetically that allows you to see the temperatures in the region beside each other.
      The lists are able to be filtered or sorted in any way you choose, so if you are only interested in weather stations in a particular region or set of regions, this is easily accomplished.  For easy viewing, the rows for each region alternate in shading.  This is easy to remove or change if you wish.
      If you would like to see the boundaries of a region, the weather stations used with a link to their corresponding Weather Underground station, or a listing of the freezes and some commentary lifted from Florida Citrus Mutual’s website, or a description of the station location, the 202007121300_NOAA_WeatherStations_TemperatureOnly.xlsx sheet will have a plethora of this information.
      For anyone who likes to look at the various airport weather stations on Wunderground, 202004292350_AirportWeatherStations.xlsx will give you as complete listing of these stations as I could assemble.
      Now for a description of the various TAGs:
      PEN = Pensacola area

      PAN - Panama City Area

      TAL - Tallahassee Area

      EPN - Eastern Panhandle

      CNF - Central North Florida

      JAX - Jacksonville area

      NEF - Northeast Florida - Dayona + St. Augustine and surrounding area

      NWC - Northwest Central Florida

      SWC - Southwest Central Florida

      NIC - North Inland Central Florida

      SIC - South Inland Central Florida

      ECF - East Central Florida

      SWF - Southwest Florida

      SEF - Southeast Florida

      MUK - Miami and the Upper Keys

      KEY - The South and Western Florida Keys

      0000_202011040720_F_SQL_v2.xlsx 202007121300_NOAA_WeatherStations_TemperatureOnly.xlsx 202004292350_AirportWeatherStations.xlsx
    • Tracy
      By Tracy
      La Nina patterns or cooler equatorial sea surface temps from the Central Pacific through to the Easter Tropical Pacific are occurring right now.  These patterns often lead to dry and clear Autumn and Winter weather patterns here in Southern California where I live.  The west coast just experienced a typical La Nina weather pattern last weekend with an inside slider storm coming down the coast with strong winds and leaving us now with cool dry nights and no marine layer.  I hope that this isn't a sign of what is to come as we get deeper into Autumn and enter Winter.  With clear skies, I bottomed out at 39 degrees last night, and even the weather station at Moonlight Beach right on the ocean was reading 43 degrees this morning at first glow. 
      The leaves on my banana plants got pretty beat up, and the Encephalartos laurentiaunus below which is flushing had some leaflets ripped off in the strong winds.  Everything below the wall was protected, while everything above the wall felt the full force of the wind.
      So how are you and your garden doing this during this La Nina Autumn?


    • kinzyjr
      By kinzyjr
      While perusing a few threads referencing the 1835 freeze, 1894-1895 freeze and the 1899 freeze, there were a few mentions of this book.  There are used copies available on Amazon for less than $20 so I decided to order it.  After reading it, I’d certainly recommend it.  While the content is presented primarily from the point of view of someone interested in commercial citrus growing, the information about each of the events is certainly relevant to palm horticulture.
      The book was a welcome relief from staring at a screen all day after working a job that typically centers around doing the same.  There are a lot of references and to the small cities throughout the state since they are typically where citrus is grown, and the weather data is obviously of interest to anyone growing palms since the same freezes are typically what impacts what is long-term or bulletproof in an area.
      The book contained weather records and quotes from the various growers as well as descriptions of the weather before and after the freeze.  Some of the quotes are humorous in spite of the fact that these folks likely lost a lot of money due to these events.  Almost all areas are at least represented in the weather records, including Key West in some cases.
      There are actually two freezes from California noted in the book (1937 and 1990).  In my case, the book does provide some weather readings from Lakeland City Hall rather than the airport, and has some weather readings from Bok Tower to compare to the Mammoth Grove area in Lake Wales to illustrate the difference elevation makes during a radiational event vs. an advective event.  There is also information on a few of our early and late season frosts that have the potential to impact tropical plants and citrus alike.  There book also covers an inverted freeze, where north and central Florida were not impacted as harshly as south Florida. 
      The cover photo actually came from our local newspaper, The Ledger.
      As the book was released in 1997, the 1996 freeze is the last one fully covered.  If you want a screen break and you like the data on the weather forums - give this one a read.
      Book Information: A History of Florida Citrus Freezes by John A. Attaway, Ph.D. (June 1st, 1997)
      Amazon Listing: https://www.amazon.com/John-Attaway/dp/0944961037/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=A+History+of+Florida+Citrus+Freezes&qid=1599060452&sr=8-1
      Some links posted by @richtrav @tropical1 and @Matthew92 referencing this book:
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4720-long-and-lat/&do=findComment&comment=81717
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/9124-freezing-degree-hours/&do=findComment&comment=153877
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/9289-what-is-a-dewpoint/&do=findComment&comment=157382
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/59364-orlando-area-winters-recent-trends-and-history/

    • missknich
      By missknich
      Need help identifying this palm tree. Thank you.

    • chinandega81
      By chinandega81
      Hello,
       
      As many people know, South Florida has been much warmer than usual over the past few years (summers, winters). Lately there have been many record high lows and high daytime highs. 
       
      I have seen graphs showing a general warming trend in Miami over the past 100 years or so...it averages out to 2 or 3 degrees warmer than what it used to be in the early 1900s.
       
      My question is, do you think this is just because of cyclic patterns of warm and cool periods coinciding with urbanization? Or is this a long term trend? I have read about frosts being somewhat frequent at Fairchild in the 70s and now they are very rare if any even occurr in a winter.

      What are your experiences in South Florida regarding this warming?
      I have noticed many bread fruit trees in my neighborhood, but I also know they grow fast so they probably haven't been around for too many years.
       
      Please share your thoughts or experiences in the garden and weather world from South Florida, I would love to hear them.
×
×
  • Create New...