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Alicehunter2000

Most Northerly area of Florida Considered Zone 10b,10a, and 9b

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edbrown_III

is I believe the zone is defined by the minimum temperature of the decade past. zone 9 is 20-39 , I reckon the 9A - 20-25 ---- and they take the data points and krig them with colors over a Florida Map. I dont think it has been lower than 20 F here in the last 10 years. I believe the zone got redefined in the 90s as you had the very low temps of 7F 11F and 16F at the Jax airport. I remember going out on the portch and looking at the thermometer before I went to work that very cold day in Jan. 1985---- I read a 12F on the wall. the news was on and they had a weather map with a 10F band and 12 F band on the map of jax.

this was up against the house wall so there was some gain from blidg. probably lower out in the yard. --- this was at 630 and the front was still moving in so it actually got colder after sun rise reaching a reported 7 at the air port --- I suspect my yard sawa few degrees above this .

looking at everything now it is so hard to believe it got so cold yet it did.

Best regarsd

Ed.

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palmsOrl

or just wait for another 1989 like event :winkie:

How would you classify these Texas cities?

Galveston (record low of 7F)

Brownsville (record low of 12F)

Comparing Texas and Florida is almost like comparing apples and oranges. I have not physically been in any of these locations, but based on what I gather Brownsville is a 10B in the very short term, 10A in the mid term, and a 9A in the long, long term. I'd place it something like a warm 9B comparable to metro Orlando in the long term.

Galveston is funny, it is just in a weird location and microclimate. Off the wall guess, it's probably a cold 9A long term (similar to south Jacksonville or New Orleans), but you can get away with calling it a 9B/10A in the short term.

The USDA zones are merely an average of a given area's lowest annual temp over a certain period of years. Thus, even though Orlando has had maybe two years with lows in the teens in the last century, it should not be said that Orlando is a zone 8b in the long, long term, because the averages are 9b over the same period. I feel the city itself will be 10a with another 30 years of future data, and it may be close to that now.

Maybe a separate category could be made to compare the USDA zone frame of reference to an area's record cold years. This might help since many seem to identify a really cold year and say "My area was zone 8b that year" even though one year does not define a USDA zone, it's averages. It could be called USDA record extreme zone (or something like that, I'm just speculating here). Thus, Orlando's USDA zone would be 9b and the record extreme zone 8b.

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palmsOrl

As an aside, it might make sense to include all reliable historical data for an area from the beginning, instead of the last 10 years or 30 years, etc. 100 + years of data should give a much more accurate assessment of a location's true long term climate.

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sonoranfans

As an aside, it might make sense to include all reliable historical data for an area from the beginning, instead of the last 10 years or 30 years, etc. 100 + years of data should give a much more accurate assessment of a location's true long term climate.

I dont think all historical data make sense in defining zones in a warming climate scenario. And aside the last decade, the climate has been warming. this and heat island effects are probably why USDA uses 10 year brackets to compute zones. In my area, 2009 and 2010 cold snaps helped push the 9B/10A line towards the water and caused sarasota to be reclassified as 9B. Im sure that there are microclimates in orlando that are very near 10a now, the variations in low temps around orlando are pretty wide. In the 1989 cold snap, the east coast was hit harder than the west coast in the cold temps. I think it depends on where the weather comes from. duem north intrusions will hit the west coas just as hard, while NW instrusions will warm over the gulf but not over the land on its way to the east coast. The east coast water is deeper and doesnt cool as fast. On the west coast we have to look at the number of intrusions that cool the gulf more closely. If the gulf water has been cooled off early in the season we know that a cond snap from the NW will be less moderated. this year when the polar vortex hit, the gulf was warm, part of the reason we saw only a 35.5F minimum, the highest winter low in quite a few years.

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Jimbean

I should take pictures of this area and have you guys tell me what zone you think I am in.

Jimbean, that's what Michael & I did this last February (or maybe it was March). We took photos of our neighborhood's palms, trying to more accurately nail down our zone….which we believe is a very warm 9b and thinking it might actually be inside 10a. We're boarder-liners, pretty close to the east of the Indian river, maybe a mile but my brain cannot remember right now. Alrighty. Very much one of these days I'd like to make a thread about it, so PalmTalk can help us describe our garden zone. But it seems like no one around here knows the accuracy. Joe Alf thinks we're at least 10a. So we set out with the dogs and a camera. Almost everyone in our neighborhood is really wonderful. And most of the neighbors were really nice about us wanting to take pictures for PalmTalk, but one person asked, hey you're not the yard nazi's, are you? lol.

One of our neighbors was very helpful and gave us a little history of his royal, saying he planted it as a small maybe 7 footer overall height several years ago (he couldn't remember exactly and bought it from a big box store), well before the 2009/2010 winter zap. It is now over the roof line. He said he's never fertilized it, just only watered it. Seriously, I was dazzled by its beauty, and forgot to photograph his palm! Sometimes I just need a pat on the head and for somebody to say it's okay, everything's gonna be all right. Here's the internet's photo.

Yeah, Viera is a warm 9B. I live on Merritt Island, I'll bet you most will think it is a 10A, but I am more conservative.

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Jimbean

@palmsorl

I take all considerations when making that determination, but I put more weight on record lows that I would on averages.

Edited by Jimbean

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edbrown_III

well thats your perogative but I believe the definition of a zone is the minimum for the past decade.

best regards

Ed

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sonoranfans

well thats your perogative but I believe the definition of a zone is the minimum for the past decade.

best regards

Ed

Exactly Ed, JIMBEAM zone is not equal to the USDA zone. Jim has his own zones.... I'll use the FDA zones and recommend them to others with the caveat that zones are 5 degree increments and there are warm and cold areas in each zone....

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Jimbean

why don't some of you all make your own zone maps and then post them here.

Edited by Jimbean

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palmsOrl

@palmsorl

I take all considerations when making that determination, but I put more weight on record lows that I would on averages.

I agree with you Jim. Record lows are a crucial determining factor in what will grow in an area long term, not just what happens during the average year.

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Jimbean

It depends on what you define as able to grow where, or how you define as a zone. Certainty is contextual.

I do like to read what other people think about the subject, that's why I keep posting on this thread. Frankly, it is my favorite subject when discussing palms.

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Shirleypalmpaws

Jimbean, thanks for the advice. Over the last couple years, we've been including some more cold-hardier palms for the pneumonia-holes in my yard (the way Tom does, I learned it from his posts), in the hopes it enhances the micro-climate we think has developed here. While looking at the bird's eye view, I see what Joe Alf pointed out, that we have nnw, n, and nne protection because of the way our home is layered within the neighborhood, but even so, I'd really love to add a Sabal Lisa (love love), and an Acrocomia totai is another fun beautifully fun palm I'd like to find. Sending *big hint hint*---to the universe!!!--- :wub2:

Okie told us his general rule of thumb is the three-degree delineation, paraphrasing, if it's 70f on the beachside, then 67f, merritt-wise, and then 64f, mainland. Just another quick question, is---the extreme minimum low---of the area----is that what determines the wavering between 9b, 10a,10b Brevard garden zones?

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Jimbean

To see a sabal lisa in Veira would be cool. I can just picture one of those towering along the royals and queens and above all of those foxtails. A sabal lisa would be an eye-catcher for sure.

the extreme minimum lows tell you a lot about the "zones." Here is what I take into account: what already grows there, record lows, average minimum lows, freezing degree hours (using the NWS), the average highs in the area after a cold event, the frequency of cold events, and the local topography of the area.

If it were to be 32F in metro Orlando, then it is likely to be something like 29F in the outer area of Orlando, 29F in Titusville, 33F in Melbourne, 35F on the Indian River in Melbourne, 35F here on Merritt Island, 37F at Cocoa Beach, probably 39F at Patrick Air Force Base, 28F in Port St. John, 27F on the St. Johns River, 32F in Cocoa, 32F or 33F in Rockeldge and Veira, 33F in Palm Bay, and 35F at Sebastian Inlet.

Edited by Jimbean

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Jimbean

In addition to around the state, It would also be something like:

34F in Vero Beach, 33F in Fort Peirce, 35F in Central Port St. Lucie, 33F in Port. St. Lucie West, 38F on anywhere on Hutchinson Island, 37F in Stuart, 39F in West Palm Beach, 41F in Fort Lauderdale, 42F in Miami, 37F in Homestead, 50F in Key West, 22F in Jacksonville, 24F or 25F in Ocala, 32F in Tampa, 34F in downtown St. Petersburg and 36F on the beach 32F in Sarasota, 35F in Fort Myers, and 36F in Naples.

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sonoranfans

Jimbean, thanks for the advice. Over the last couple years, we've been including some more cold-hardier palms for the pneumonia-holes in my yard (the way Tom does, I learned it from his posts), in the hopes it enhances the micro-climate we think has developed here. While looking at the bird's eye view, I see what Joe Alf pointed out, that we have nnw, n, and nne protection because of the way our home is layered within the neighborhood, but even so, I'd really love to add a Sabal Lisa (love love), and an Acrocomia totai is another fun beautifully fun palm I'd like to find. Sending *big hint hint*---to the universe!!!--- :wub2:

Okie told us his general rule of thumb is the three-degree delineation, paraphrasing, if it's 70f on the beachside, then 67f, merritt-wise, and then 64f, mainland. Just another quick question, is---the extreme minimum low---of the area----is that what determines the wavering between 9b, 10a,10b Brevard garden zones?

Shirley,

As Ed stated above the USDA uses the decade minimum lows to determine its zone partitions. If the minimum low that your palm can take is exceeded one time it is dead so it seems a useful method. But zones are too course, a warm 9B is much different than a cold 9B, 4-5 degrees can make a big difference in what you can grow. On the sabal lisas, I bought a strap leaf seedlingrown g from a batch of rps seeds but some, including mine, didnt turn out to have the lisa leaflet formation. Mine is just a sabal minor. It may be these are genetic variations that have to be verified once they get some character leaves.

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Shirleypalmpaws

Tom, thanks so much for helping me understand. Your posts are always filled with invaluable gems….I'll be sure to look for an older Sabal Lisa. Thank you times infinity!

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palmsOrl

why don't some of you all make your own zone maps and then post them here.

Here is my version. I am more confident in the zone boundaries of 9a-11b than those of zone 8, but zone 8 should be fairly close to reality. I included a few known local climate anomalies on the map, such as Orlando, Archbold Biological Station and Lake Placid/Lake Istokpoga. Regarding zone 11, I am almost certain Miami Beach and adjacent barrier islands should be included since Miami itself averages upper 30s for lows on an annual basis.

Note, the image thumbnail is distorted for some reason, you can view it intact by clicking on it to enlarge.

post-2050-0-73775600-1399749632_thumb.gi

Edited by palmsOrl

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Jimbean

Looks interesting. Thank you for doing that!

Xenon, do one for Texas!

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palmsOrl

To see a sabal lisa in Veira would be cool. I can just picture one of those towering along the royals and queens and above all of those foxtails. A sabal lisa would be an eye-catcher for sure.

the extreme minimum lows tell you a lot about the "zones." Here is what I take into account: what already grows there, record lows, average minimum lows, freezing degree hours (using the NWS), the average highs in the area after a cold event, the frequency of cold events, and the local topography of the area.

If it were to be 32F in metro Orlando, then it is likely to be something like 29F in the outer area of Orlando, 29F in Titusville, 33F in Melbourne, 35F on the Indian River in Melbourne, 35F here on Merritt Island, 37F at Cocoa Beach, probably 39F at Patrick Air Force Base, 28F in Port St. John, 27F on the St. Johns River, 32F in Cocoa, 32F or 33F in Rockeldge and Veira, 33F in Palm Bay, and 35F at Sebastian Inlet.

One thing I have noticed is that the distance between the average annual low and the all-time record low for an area increases from south to north. So, Key West may average 47-48F annually and the all-time record is 41F, not much difference. Tallahassee may average around 19-20F yearly but has been to -2F.

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floridagrower

This map is pretty good but I would put a small pink spot on Tallahassee proper. The official record at the airport is recorded at 58 feet above sea level. The airport proceeds to sink to 22 feet on the low end. Meanwhile, the center of town averages 180 feet above sea level. Cold air moves over the town and begins to settle at the airport all the way to the coast (18 miles). This is why Crawfordville is colder than Tallahassee, despite being further south and near the coast. We can get very cold here but we are usually 9a in town.

Edited by floridagrower

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Zeeth

Cool maps guys! It's difficult to really make these sorts of maps as one person. It would be cool if someone could crowdsource a map that everyone can draw what they think their zone is, and what others are, and a map is drawn.

It's pretty difficult to really go back on weather history. The Sarasota airport is a good one from 1998 to present. From 1997 and before they report lows of 25 F nearly every year, which doesn't look right for where it's located.

There are locations in West Bradenton (where it juts out onto the water) and Anna Maria Island that haven't seen freezing temperatures for nearly 30 years. 2010 was damaging because of the duration of the cold, but the low temp for the station in Cortez was 32.2. I think you could qualify this as a warm 10a or cold 10b climate, considering how exceptional that winter was.

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Jimbean

Just for fun: perhaps we can have a map-off. Have various people draw a map and allow people to vote on which one they think is correct.

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Walt

why don't some of you all make your own zone maps and then post them here.

Here is my version. I am more confident in the zone boundaries of 9a-11b than those of zone 8, but zone 8 should be fairly close to reality. I included a few known local climate anomalies on the map, such as Orlando, Archbold Biological Station and Lake Placid/Lake Istokpoga. Regarding zone 11, I am almost certain Miami Beach and adjacent barrier islands should be included since Miami itself averages upper 30s for lows on an annual basis.

Note, the image thumbnail is distorted for some reason, you can view it intact by clicking on it to enlarge.

Archbold Biological Station is definitely zone 9a, but has been low as 8a (all-time low temperature of 13 degrees on two occasions). I remember well when ABS dropped to 13 degrees on January 5, 2001 (the second time it did so), as it was around 20 degrees at my place just up the road about 8 miles or so. My garden was wiped out by that radiational freeze.

But Lake Placid proper (up in town) is a sold zone 10, I have no doubts about that after observing what grows there (e.g., several mature fruiting coconut palms, 40 feet mango trees) and the effect cold events have on them for the past 16 winters. The town averages about 150 ft above sea level (Lake Wales Ridge) and has about 12 lakes all around it. I'm about 1-1/2 miles N.E. of town, but down off the ridge. I estimate on the coldest radiational cooling nights it's close10 degrees warmer in town due to air inversion and good cold air drainage.

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Jimbean

why don't some of you all make your own zone maps and then post them here.

Here is my version. I am more confident in the zone boundaries of 9a-11b than those of zone 8, but zone 8 should be fairly close to reality. I included a few known local climate anomalies on the map, such as Orlando, Archbold Biological Station and Lake Placid/Lake Istokpoga. Regarding zone 11, I am almost certain Miami Beach and adjacent barrier islands should be included since Miami itself averages upper 30s for lows on an annual basis.

Note, the image thumbnail is distorted for some reason, you can view it intact by clicking on it to enlarge.

Archbold Biological Station is definitely zone 9a, but has been low as 8a (all-time low temperature of 13 degrees on two occasions). I remember well when ABS dropped to 13 degrees on January 5, 2001 (the second time it did so), as it was around 20 degrees at my place just up the road about 8 miles or so. My garden was wiped out by that radiational freeze.

But Lake Placid proper (up in town) is a sold zone 10, I have no doubts about that after observing what grows there (e.g., several mature fruiting coconut palms, 40 feet mango trees) and the effect cold events have on them for the past 16 winters. The town averages about 150 ft above sea level (Lake Wales Ridge) and has about 12 lakes all around it. I'm about 1-1/2 miles N.E. of town, but down off the ridge. I estimate on the coldest radiational cooling nights it's close10 degrees warmer in town due to air inversion and good cold air drainage.

Yep.

most micro climates are usually too small to designate on a map, but the Lake Wales ridge covers enough area to be shown, and is worth mentioning.

There is a few interesting areas in the interior of central Florida that either designate a 10A or a warm 9B, all depending upon the topography or a possible heat island.

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Walt

why don't some of you all make your own zone maps and then post them here.

Here is my version. I am more confident in the zone boundaries of 9a-11b than those of zone 8, but zone 8 should be fairly close to reality. I included a few known local climate anomalies on the map, such as Orlando, Archbold Biological Station and Lake Placid/Lake Istokpoga. Regarding zone 11, I am almost certain Miami Beach and adjacent barrier islands should be included since Miami itself averages upper 30s for lows on an annual basis.

Note, the image thumbnail is distorted for some reason, you can view it intact by clicking on it to enlarge.

Archbold Biological Station is definitely zone 9a, but has been low as 8a (all-time low temperature of 13 degrees on two occasions). I remember well when ABS dropped to 13 degrees on January 5, 2001 (the second time it did so), as it was around 20 degrees at my place just up the road about 8 miles or so. My garden was wiped out by that radiational freeze.

But Lake Placid proper (up in town) is a sold zone 10, I have no doubts about that after observing what grows there (e.g., several mature fruiting coconut palms, 40 feet mango trees) and the effect cold events have on them for the past 16 winters. The town averages about 150 ft above sea level (Lake Wales Ridge) and has about 12 lakes all around it. I'm about 1-1/2 miles N.E. of town, but down off the ridge. I estimate on the coldest radiational cooling nights it's close10 degrees warmer in town due to air inversion and good cold air drainage.

Yep.

most micro climates are usually too small to designate on a map, but the Lake Wales ridge covers enough area to be shown, and is worth mentioning.

There is a few interesting areas in the interior of central Florida that either designate a 10A or a warm 9B, all depending upon the topography or a possible heat island.

Based on my experience and observations, by checking all local weather stations (Sebring FAWN, local WU sites in Highlands County, my own temperature readings and my friend's temperature readings over on Lake June), plus observing zone 10 plants and palms during and after cold events -- I've seen 20 degrees (and more) differences in nighttime low temperatures on the coldest radiational cooling nights (from the coldest low ground locations to lake side and/or high ground locations). And radiational cooling nights comprise 95% of the coldest cold events. In my 16+ years living in Highlands County I've never experienced an advective cold event where the lowest temperature dropped below 29.5 degrees; and I think this was on January 23, 2003.

On radiational cooling nights, our local radio station weather report will say something like: Tonight's low will be 30 degrees low ground, 37 degrees high ground.

During the winter of 2012-2013 (on the coldest morning of the winter) I did a simple test. My wife was leaving for work at 6:30 a.m., and the thermometer in her car read 33 degrees as she pulled out of our driveway. We were in contact with each other on our cell phones. As she left our subdivision and started up the hill to US 27 (which basically runs down the center of the Lake Wales Ridge), she counted out as the car's thermometer showed a temperature increase: 34 degrees, 35, degrees, etc., until she got to the top of the hill where the thermometer read 39 degrees. And this was in an open area about 1/2 mile north of town (no heat island effect, only relative elevation).

In Highlands County, I've concluded that virtually all lakeside locations are zone 10 (surrounding areas within one block of lake), as well as most high ground locations. Low ground areas are either a low 9b or high 9a most winters (with the past two winters being an exception, as they were slightly warmer)

The Sun 'N' Lakes subdivision located on the east side of Lake Grassy is the largest geographical area in Highlands County that is zone 10. I've driven up and down the residential streets and observed scores of coconut, royal, foxtail, solitaire, et al., palms and plants.

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Jimbean

You know the area better than I do.

It is interesting to have you tell about the local area and where to find the micro climates. I'll remember that you know this, and I may even ask you at some point in the future if I ever needed to know more about that area.

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Jimbean

Walt, what is the chances that you can make a local zone map of Highlands county?

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Walt

Walt, what is the chances that you can make a local zone map of Highlands county?

Jim, I can't make a zone map. It seems some years ago you (it may have been somebody else) made a zone map. And in Highlands County it showed a 1/2-full zone higher (color difference, in any event) on the high area of the Lake Wales Ridge, and also on and around the lakes, especially the S.E. sides of the lakes -- where the color extended out farther from the lake due to lake influence.

I have a buddy who lives about 300-400 feet from the east shore of Lake June (3,405 acre lake). He and his wife moved to Lake Placid about 10 years ago from Ft. Lauderdale. He was the chief engineer at an instrument calibration lab in Miami. My buddy is big into growing tropical fruit trees, and he enjoys a solid zone 10 climate. In fact, during the 10 years he's lived there the temperature only dropped to 32 degrees one time. I recall one winter he never went below 41 degrees (and me low on the same day was 27 degrees). I basically varified his low temperature as my elderly parent's owned a vacant lot (lake front) just down the street from my buddy. I placed a Halsey-Taylor hi-lo thermometer at the base of a bay tree on my parent's lot, about 40 feet from the lake shore. We had two cold events that winter, and after each one I drove over to the lake to check and reset my thermometers. The coldest it got was 42 degrees. I believe this was the 2005-2006 winter.

My buddy knows the owner of Going Bananas in Homestead and accasionally talks to him after a cold event. Most radiational cooling events my buddy's yard is warmer than Homestead, but daytime highs are lower.

Since I'm retired, I have lots of time to drive around and check areas. In fact, some times I go to Google Map and use street scene. I traverse the streets and look for zone 10+ palms. That's how I found tall royal palms growing on the southeast side of Lake Istokpoga. I got in my car and drove to the location and confirmed the palms. Sure enough they were there and very healthy looking.

As far as Sun 'N' Lakes Lake Placid, on the east shore of Lake Grassy, I drove up and down every street west of Sun 'N' Lakes Blvd. I found lots and lots of coconut palms; the biggest Dypsis lutescens I've ever seen; the tallest Ravenea rivularis I've ever seen, and dozens of royal palms and other tropical stuff. The second largest Ficus elastica in the county (at least what I've observed) is in this subdivision.

There are some very nice coconut palms on the west side of Lake Grassy at what was once called the Lake Grassy Motel (I think it may have a different name now). These palms have been there for years. All survived the cold winter of 2010. These palms can be seen on Google street scene, but they are much shorter as the photo was taken many years ago.

If I did have to make a zone map, roughly, the Archbold Biological Station area would be zone 9a, all undeveloped areas and outlying residential areas off the Lake Wales Ridge would be 9b. But the hearts of the towns of Lake Placid, Sebring (the historical district east of Lake Jackson), and Avon Park would be 10a. On the ridge would be 10a (but the ridge fluctuates with peaks and valleys, so it wouldn't necessarily be a solid color). Around the lakes would be 10b, at least close in, say several hundred feet around the periphery of the lake. This would be for average winters. Naturally, 2010 was an exception, but even then I don't think high ground areas went below 32 degrees.

Since I moved here in 1997, it's becoming easier to judge and identify local climate (in terms of low temperature) as an abundance of tropical palms have been introduced. THis is due mainly to availability and more affluent folks that have moved up here from south Florida, and want similar palms and plantings they had down there.

Most folks in the old town of Lake Placid are of lower income and don't have the discretionary money to buy expensive tropical palms -- or they don't care about them. But there's enough coconut palms and other mature zone 10 plantings for me to make a Koppen-like judgement that the town is a solid zone 10. I can imagine if every home owner in town had 2-3 coconut palms in their yard, and outsider who happened to drive by would think the town was an especially warm spot. ABS is 8 miles south of town, yet the low temperature differences sometimes approach 20 degrees on the coldest radiational cooling nights. Again, the town benefits from being at elevation with good cold air drainage, plus the 12 lakes that surround the town probably release enough warm air that wafts up into town as the colder air drains down.

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smithgn

How often does the USDA revise cold hardiness zones? By the way, I've averaged my areas low temperatures for the last 30 and 50 years and they both are 16-17 degrees average minimal temperature. Why is my area then considered an 8A? If you average the last 20 years it's been warmer at 18 degrees. I've always wondered this.

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Jimbean

The USDA revises its hardiness zone maps about every 20 years.

The USDA defines a zone as an average of a period (usually 15 years consecutively) of annual minimum temperatures for an area. This is done by categorizing the temperature brackets, and then places each area in the labeled zones that fall within that bracket. The purpose of this is to give a general idea of what plants will be hardy in that area.

Technically, if you average 18F for 20 years, you would be in USDA zone 8B.

Why does the USDA not show your area as zone 8B? Could it be that you are in a micro climate (say, on the south side of Lake Murray), that your location is atypical of the larger area? I cannot tell you unless I was able to look at the specifics. From my judgement, I have seen some of that area myself, and I would call it a zone 8A, but I do not define zones quite like the USDA either.

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smithgn

My house is less than a mile from Lake Murray. East northeast of Lake Murray. Although, I don't think the lake will have much effect on my hardiness zone, being that far away and having that many obstacles (houses, trees) between me and the lake. I'm situated at 345 feet.

As for the temperatures, the only historical data that I could draw from was the West Columbia airport temperatures. The airport is about 12 miles southeast of me and sits at about 200 feet. For some reason they didn't have any data for my exact area, so the closest area I chose was the airport. Here's where I got the data from: http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_ColumbiaMetroArpt_WestColumbia_SC_January.html

Just for comparison of this past dreadful winter, the lowest temperature my yard got down to was 11 degrees, as did the West Columbia airport. I'm not sure why it doesn't show some areas of the midlands of SC to be 8B. Where my house is, I'd certainly be pushing it, but it very well could be a borderline 8B. But overall, agreed, the area is comfortably an 8A, but I know for certain some areas like the airport and downtown Columbia could be solid 8B's.

So every 20 years? When is the date of the next release? The cold hardiness map I use on their website says 1976-2005. Would the next one come by 2025?

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edbrown_III

Jim Bean,

I am enjoying yur commentary --- my appologies for one of my reply s --- I have b een visiting bros in Cocoa and Orlando so havent gone here. When I rearead the thread last nite the reply was a bit more terse than I entended it just expressing contra opinion and the rules that the USDA uses there mapas son variable as they revise each decade and we have some cold minimums and warm winters that shift the boundaries of the zones.s

the zone maps give me an idea but the spots and sometimes the minimums are wierd one time in 96 we had a clipper come through my minimum was heading down but clouds rolled in --- other sid e of the river got 18 gainseville got 17 but we stayed at 26 --- front rolled on down and homestead and western palm beach got about the same temps as Jax --- simularly the same thing happened in 2001 the late and very great John Bischoek had the same 21F minimum as me --- Damages in these southern areas was extensive as the foliage was tender and we got a few cool days to harden things off that they didnt in Homestead and Loxahatchee --- seemed so strange as John lives so far south but in western Manatee coutny --- ithe neighbor hood has coconuts and other palms but his property ironically was in a cold pocket of the neighbor hood I salute his memobry and enthusiam and miss his presence at meetings as he always liven up any grouping or party !

Kindest regards

Ed

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Jimbean

My house is less than a mile from Lake Murray. East northeast of Lake Murray. Although, I don't think the lake will have much effect on my hardiness zone, being that far away and having that many obstacles (houses, trees) between me and the lake. I'm situated at 345 feet.

As for the temperatures, the only historical data that I could draw from was the West Columbia airport temperatures. The airport is about 12 miles southeast of me and sits at about 200 feet. For some reason they didn't have any data for my exact area, so the closest area I chose was the airport. Here's where I got the data from: http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_ColumbiaMetroArpt_WestColumbia_SC_January.html

Just for comparison of this past dreadful winter, the lowest temperature my yard got down to was 11 degrees, as did the West Columbia airport. I'm not sure why it doesn't show some areas of the midlands of SC to be 8B. Where my house is, I'd certainly be pushing it, but it very well could be a borderline 8B. But overall, agreed, the area is comfortably an 8A, but I know for certain some areas like the airport and downtown Columbia could be solid 8B's.

So every 20 years? When is the date of the next release? The cold hardiness map I use on their website says 1976-2005. Would the next one come by 2025?

Based on the USDA's methodology, I would assume that it would explain what would grow there in the short term, which the map looks like that is what it is basically showing you.

As far as your average temperature and what zone you are technically in, I have the same issue at my location in Merritt Island with averaging somewhere around 34F, yet the USDA puts me at 9B. I don't however care about the USDA regardless because I have my own zones, which I put myself in 9b and you probably at 8A.

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Jimbean

Jim Bean,

I am enjoying yur commentary --- my appologies for one of my reply s --- I have b een visiting bros in Cocoa and Orlando so havent gone here. When I rearead the thread last nite the reply was a bit more terse than I entended it just expressing contra opinion and the rules that the USDA uses there mapas son variable as they revise each decade and we have some cold minimums and warm winters that shift the boundaries of the zones.s

the zone maps give me an idea but the spots and sometimes the minimums are wierd one time in 96 we had a clipper come through my minimum was heading down but clouds rolled in --- other sid e of the river got 18 gainseville got 17 but we stayed at 26 --- front rolled on down and homestead and western palm beach got about the same temps as Jax --- simularly the same thing happened in 2001 the late and very great John Bischoek had the same 21F minimum as me --- Damages in these southern areas was extensive as the foliage was tender and we got a few cool days to harden things off that they didnt in Homestead and Loxahatchee --- seemed so strange as John lives so far south but in western Manatee coutny --- ithe neighbor hood has coconuts and other palms but his property ironically was in a cold pocket of the neighbor hood I salute his memobry and enthusiam and miss his presence at meetings as he always liven up any grouping or party !

Kindest regards

Ed

That's fine, I am here to express the data.

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Zeeth

Jim Bean,

I am enjoying yur commentary --- my appologies for one of my reply s --- I have b een visiting bros in Cocoa and Orlando so havent gone here. When I rearead the thread last nite the reply was a bit more terse than I entended it just expressing contra opinion and the rules that the USDA uses there mapas son variable as they revise each decade and we have some cold minimums and warm winters that shift the boundaries of the zones.s

the zone maps give me an idea but the spots and sometimes the minimums are wierd one time in 96 we had a clipper come through my minimum was heading down but clouds rolled in --- other sid e of the river got 18 gainseville got 17 but we stayed at 26 --- front rolled on down and homestead and western palm beach got about the same temps as Jax --- simularly the same thing happened in 2001 the late and very great John Bischoek had the same 21F minimum as me --- Damages in these southern areas was extensive as the foliage was tender and we got a few cool days to harden things off that they didnt in Homestead and Loxahatchee --- seemed so strange as John lives so far south but in western Manatee coutny --- ithe neighbor hood has coconuts and other palms but his property ironically was in a cold pocket of the neighbor hood I salute his memobry and enthusiam and miss his presence at meetings as he always liven up any grouping or party !

Kindest regards

Ed

That's fine, I am here to express the data.

Wunderground says you hit 29 F in 2010, so I think your designation is correct.

In my opinion, I would write a zone based on what the minimum low that you'll see in 20 years is. That's enough time to sprout a coconut and have it grow to fruiting maturity. Also, it's pretty difficult to find reliable data older than that.

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smithgn

My house is less than a mile from Lake Murray. East northeast of Lake Murray. Although, I don't think the lake will have much effect on my hardiness zone, being that far away and having that many obstacles (houses, trees) between me and the lake. I'm situated at 345 feet.

As for the temperatures, the only historical data that I could draw from was the West Columbia airport temperatures. The airport is about 12 miles southeast of me and sits at about 200 feet. For some reason they didn't have any data for my exact area, so the closest area I chose was the airport. Here's where I got the data from: http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_ColumbiaMetroArpt_WestColumbia_SC_January.html

Just for comparison of this past dreadful winter, the lowest temperature my yard got down to was 11 degrees, as did the West Columbia airport. I'm not sure why it doesn't show some areas of the midlands of SC to be 8B. Where my house is, I'd certainly be pushing it, but it very well could be a borderline 8B. But overall, agreed, the area is comfortably an 8A, but I know for certain some areas like the airport and downtown Columbia could be solid 8B's.

So every 20 years? When is the date of the next release? The cold hardiness map I use on their website says 1976-2005. Would the next one come by 2025?

Based on the USDA's methodology, I would assume that it would explain what would grow there in the short term, which the map looks like that is what it is basically showing you.

As far as your average temperature and what zone you are technically in, I have the same issue at my location in Merritt Island with averaging somewhere around 34F, yet the USDA puts me at 9B. I don't however care about the USDA regardless because I have my own zones, which I put myself in 9b and you probably at 8A.

Wait, don't you mean you'd put yourself at 10A if your average minimum is 34 degrees?

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Jimbean

Jim Bean,

I am enjoying yur commentary --- my appologies for one of my reply s --- I have b een visiting bros in Cocoa and Orlando so havent gone here. When I rearead the thread last nite the reply was a bit more terse than I entended it just expressing contra opinion and the rules that the USDA uses there mapas son variable as they revise each decade and we have some cold minimums and warm winters that shift the boundaries of the zones.s

the zone maps give me an idea but the spots and sometimes the minimums are wierd one time in 96 we had a clipper come through my minimum was heading down but clouds rolled in --- other sid e of the river got 18 gainseville got 17 but we stayed at 26 --- front rolled on down and homestead and western palm beach got about the same temps as Jax --- simularly the same thing happened in 2001 the late and very great John Bischoek had the same 21F minimum as me --- Damages in these southern areas was extensive as the foliage was tender and we got a few cool days to harden things off that they didnt in Homestead and Loxahatchee --- seemed so strange as John lives so far south but in western Manatee coutny --- ithe neighbor hood has coconuts and other palms but his property ironically was in a cold pocket of the neighbor hood I salute his memobry and enthusiam and miss his presence at meetings as he always liven up any grouping or party !

Kindest regards

Ed

That's fine, I am here to express the data.

Wunderground says you hit 29 F in 2010, so I think your designation is correct.

In my opinion, I would write a zone based on what the minimum low that you'll see in 20 years is. That's enough time to sprout a coconut and have it grow to fruiting maturity. Also, it's pretty difficult to find reliable data older than that.

I do remember someone telling me 29F on the 528 causeway and 28F further north. My location was 32F that early morning.

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Jimbean

This is from the weather station a few miles away from where I am staying. These are the annual minimums:

2005 33F

2006 36F

2007 40F

2008 35F

2009 32F (33F)

2010 29F (+ a bad January)

2011 32F (34F, 32F)

2012 38F

2013 39F

The station averages to 34.88F in the last nine years.

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Zeeth

This is from the weather station a few miles away from where I am staying. These are the annual minimums:

2005 33F

2006 36F

2007 40F

2008 35F

2009 32F (33F)

2010 29F (+ a bad January)

2011 32F (34F, 32F)

2012 38F

2013 39F

The station averages to 34.88F in the last nine years.

How big are the biggest plumerias in your neighborhood?

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