Hawaii Dreams and Reality

[OB Burt]

And what exactly is the job market like over there? Kinda hard to up and leave behind a vested job that will make you comfy in your waning years.

Holy crap, my years are waning?? Did you have to tell me that??

[Jeff Searle]

Axel,

Hawaii is far from perfect, and there are substantial day to day problems to deal with there if you call it home. My son Travis, was stationed there at Schofield Barracks ( Army )on Ohau. And basically, he didn't like much of it at all. He commented on how expensive food and gas was, how many of the small towns appeared dirty because the locals throw a lot of trash on the ground and how the 'locals" did not care for them. Very racial. He's happily living back here in south Florida and would never consider living in Hawaii.

I once made a palm collecting trip to Tahiti back in the 90's. A much slower pace than Hawaii, and I hope you speak French because I found very little to none of English spoken there.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel,

Hawaii is far from perfect, and there are substantial day to day problems to deal with there if you call it home. My son Travis, was stationed there at Schofield Barracks ( Army )on Ohau. And basically, he didn't like much of it at all. He commented on how expensive food and gas was, how many of the small towns appeared dirty because the locals throw a lot of trash on the ground and how the 'locals" did not care for them. Very racial. He's happily living back here in south Florida and would never consider living in Hawaii.

I once made a palm collecting trip to Tahiti back in the 90's. A much slower pace than Hawaii, and I hope you speak French because I found very little to none of English spoken there.

Jeff, I am fluent in French, Tahiti would be cool, but only temporarily,I'd consider living there for 6 months and come home. But before I would do that, I'd spend 6 months in Madagascar up in Antananarivo, they've got excellent communication infrastructure and I'd spend the weekends going on palm expeditions.

[rprimbs]

With that being said, whether I love Kona or not is not relevant. The window of opportunity to put an anchor on the island has closed. My wife doesn't deem the Big Island suitable enough for raising kids, the racism and the level of corruption and petty crime is a deterrent for us that far outweighs the natural beauty of the place. Nowhere is the racism more prevalent than in schools. This would not be an issue if we didn't have kids or our kids were already off to college. I hope no one takes offense to this, it's just the reality of what we face. It wasn't easy to let go of the dream of growing perfect palms, but the point of the thread is that palms aren't everything.

I don't think that I would care in the least about Trader Joe's, but it sounds like the potential problems with the schools are a deal breaker. I have been worried the schools here -- but they sound better in comparison.

[David in Berkeley]

If you think Hawaii is expensive, Tahiti will blow you away. I'm envious of those who can work/live anywhere, but know that the big island would be a disaster work wise for me in getting landscape design projects unless I worked for a hotel/resort. Honolulu would work better, but I'm not sure I could afford it, or would really be any better off. I've often wondered what it would be like to live/work in Puerto Rico, but understand the economy is going through hard times, with the government in worse shape than California.

[mike in kurtistown]

I've been a little confused about the race ("Haole") issue in this thread. Not a subject that everyone is eager to get involved in, but I have done some research with the following results for Hawaii County (the "Big Island"):

White 34.2 %

Mixed 29.5 %

Asian 22.5 %

Hawaiian 12.5 %

African-Amer 0.8 %

Of whites, non-Hispanics are 30.7 % and Hispanics are 3.5 %. Of Asians, the largest numbers are of Filipinos, followed closely by the Japanese. There are a far smaller number of people of Chinese origin, and an even smaller number of those of Korean origin.

So whites would seem to be a down-trodden majority. Perhaps since we whites then to be retirees, the number of white children in the schools would be much less.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I've been a little confused about the race ("Haole") issue in this thread. Not a subject that everyone is eager to get involved in, but I have done some research with the following results for Hawaii County (the "Big Island"):

White 34.2 %

Mixed 29.5 %

Asian 22.5 %

Hawaiian 12.5 %

African-Amer 0.8 %

Of whites, non-Hispanics are 30.7 % and Hispanics are 3.5 %. Of Asians, the largest numbers are of Filipinos, followed closely by the Japanese. There are a far smaller number of people of Chinese origin, and an even smaller number of those of Korean origin.

So whites would seem to be a down-trodden majority. Perhaps since we whites then to be retirees, the number of white children in the schools would be much less.

Depends how you look at it:

Mixed + Hawaiian = 42%, but since Asians pretty much blend in, it's more like

Mixed + hawaiian + Asian = 64.5% Haole = 34.2%

That should pretty much explain the race dynamics on the island.

When I found out that "Haole" means breathless in Hawaiian, I found that term to be about the most insulting term for whites I've ever heard of in any culture. Even the Thai term for Foreigner is way less insulting.

[doranakandawatta]

1. …..DISCUSSING PALM TREE WORLDWIDE…..Friends, Would you mind posting nice palms or gardens pictures?

   It seemed to me that Hawaii can be a dream because of the palm collection I discovered through Palmtalk, but we have now 3 pages of hawaiian- american talk… Kindly said

[mike in kurtistown]

I agree with Phillippe. I have been troubled by references to this topic that appear to be less than objective, so I have tried to counter with some actual data that shows a more balanced view. Hawaii is a place where we all interact freely in a spirit of Aloha and as human beings and would not think of congregating in ghettos.

[kahili]

I agree that devoting almost all of the time on this thread to the negatives of living in Hawaii is troubling. To me, there is no place as special as Hawaii and in particular-Maui. The positives far outweigh the negatives. However if I had kids in 5th grade onward, and were thinking of moving to Hawaii, I would definitely want to explore the school system more and how white newcomer kids were treated there. I would go to the school in the district that I was thinking of moving to and just hang out for the day-esp before and after school. Colin himself admitted that he had his kids in private school for that reason. But that is Oahu and each island is different in so many ways-including how haoles are treated and in what part of the island are they treated certain ways. I always thought that the racial issue was almost non existent on the big island compared to other islands.

I also think that I was extremely lucky to live where I was a minority when i was in my 20's into my 30's. I think it would benefit every person on this planet to live where they are a minority for a period of time in their lives.

But I also think that for anyone that lives in Hawaii or thinking of moving there or even visiting, that it would be beneficial to read the history of the Hawaiian islands from when the missionaries came in the early 1800's onward and you will have a much better understanding of why there is a resentment towards whites in Hawaii by some locals-and I stress "some". Whites robbed them blind of land and water rights and took advantage of their "aloha spirit" for purely economical reasons. It was like taking candy from a baby in some respects because of Hawaiians culture that was so different from western man. They valued different things and came out on the losing end in many ways. Yes, after falling under the influence of the whites' emphasis of money and material goods, the ali'i abused their people by sending everyone upcountry to harvest all the sandalwood possible and not allowing them to farm and thereby not have food-but by far and away-whites are the culprits here. Then they annexed the islands and overthrew the monarchy, just to protect the whites investments in the islands. hawaiians were not equal partners in these endeavors. So, allow the locals some resentment-even if ill placed against people that specifically did not do the damage. They grew up listening to these stories about whites. There is still much poverty for many on the islands-you think its expensive to move there-what about the people that grew up there and just want to buy a house? Things have changed over the years, I hope for the better for locals, but whites still control a lot there in terms of land and water.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

It was never my intent to turn this thread into portraying Hawaii in a negative manner. I think this topic is highly relevant to this forum because Hawaii is the ultimate American palm dream. There is a "palm ghetto" in Hawaii, we all know it, but it's not a negative ghetto in the sense that there is a lot of crime. If you are really into palms, then the entire East side of the Big Island is a paradise on earth where you can grow more species of palms to perfection. Let's face it, Hawaii is "the" place to be as far as palms are concerned.

All I was pointing out is that there are other issues that influence where we choose to live, and some of the realities of living in Hawaii didn't suit my wife. She could care less about palms, so it's not that high on her priority list other than wanting me to be happy.

My own personal bias would lead me to Kona because I prefer to have quick access to lots of sandy beaches and I do prefer being a little drier. When the Hawaiian kings chose Kona, they knew what they were doing. You can't ask for a more perfect climate for human habitation than the coffee belt of Kona. Dean really scored by finding a spot higher up in Kona where he has the best of both worlds: enough humidity, cloud cover and rainfall to grow a wide assortment of palms, and quick access to sunshine, drier weather and beaches right around the corner. In fact, Dean's garden and house is a model for how I would live in Hawaii.

Finally I've met nothing but fantastic cool people on the Big Island, and they alone are enough reason for me to want to go back and visit. I definitely experienced the Aloha spirit. The only negative experience was with some nasty realtors, but no place is perfect. Unfortunately, these realtors killed the whole thing for us because this very non-Aloha thing got my wife to take a good look at if she wants to live there, and she decided against it. Trust me, I was ready to go and live on a waterfall with an enormous alexander palm forest, and so was my wife, she was bought in. But it's funny how things can turn on a dime.

So please don't demonize this thread just because I was willing to pull out a few skeletons out of the closet.

[sgvcns]

Axel

Surely you mean "the" place to be in USA for palms.

The world is bigger than that.

This outlook is what I find most amusing in this thread.

Steve

[kahili]

Axel-maybe I should have said all the negativity that was in some of the comments. And the cattiness- I think that you raised some relevant points, and I think that there is merit to them, but Hawaii is so much more than just growing palms-which seems like a running mini thread in this thread. Its where I got my start with growing palms, but when I think of living in Hawaii and all the good that there is there-palms aren't near the very top (sort of near...). Its just a really special place in so many ways. I would rather more of that. I have noticed that some people come there to visit and don't leave, or strongly don't want to leave ( I knew quite a few people that just never left when they visited-lots of Canadians etc) and others that think its a beautiful place, but are happy to go home. So-it grabs some people and others it doesn't. Which is fine.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Axel

Surely you mean "the" place to be in USA for palms.

The world is bigger than that.

This outlook is what I find most amusing in this thread.

Steve

Steve,

You make a valid point. I have wanted to move to a certain place down under for years, but alas, the immigration policies do not allow it.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel

Surely you mean "the" place to be in USA for palms.

The world is bigger than that.

This outlook is what I find most amusing in this thread.

Steve

Hawaii does have an edge on a lot of tropical climates, it's perhaps the best place to grow palms where you don't have to put up with the "inconvenience" of a tropical climate:

- super pleasant temperature range for both humans and palms where you're not drowning in sweat at night

- no monsoons

- no unbearable heat

- no scorching dry season

- no nasty animals like crocodiles or snakes

- year round cloud cover

- year round reliable rainfall

If you can find me a place like that down under or elsewhere, then maybe I'd agree with restricting it to the US. For now, though, until there's another place like that, I'd still put Hawaii at the top world wide. The East side of Hawaii is just really the best climate all around for botanicals.

[sgvcns]

Axel

Just off the top of my head there is Panama above the coastal strip.

Friends live near the Costa Rican border and you have described their climate.

No crocs but some snakes though.

Parts of Asia at some elevation are also very similar.

Australia does not have the elevation in the tropics to grow such a range of higher altitude lovers.

Oh and we ozzies have snakes and crocs!

I'm sure there are a multitude of other options.

Steve

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Unfortunatly, those of us with pale pigment must look into the demographics when considering relocating to Hawaii.

Race and ethicity seems to be a very important part of the "Aloha spirit".

Hawaii is a beautiful place and compared to many areas in CA, housing is affordable or at least as affordable.

Without the race hate that many if not most mainlanders living in Hawaii experience, the place would be much more expensive and and over run by Haoles.

By the way, you cant break down Asian ethincities into smaller groups then say Caucasian is a majority.

Most areas in Hawaii are 80 percent " local " ( Asian/pacific Islander mix ) and 15 to 20 percent Haole ( Caucasian).

There are some small areas where Haoles are a majority ( I believe they cluster for protection) but over all, Hawaii is mostly Asian /Pacific islander.

Here in California, You rarely feel as isolated as in Hawaii, even though Caucasians are less than 50% of the state population. Perhaps we are a better melting pot here?

[Dypsisdean]

the race hate that many if not most mainlanders living in Hawaii experience,

Jeff,

I would respectfully suggest that you need to read this thread more carefully, and pay closer attention the comments made by those of us who live here, or have lived here. My recollection is that their comments have been tilted toward highlighting the friendliness of the people here. I know mine have. I would maintain your comment is erroneous.

Most "anti-haole" stories always seem to come from those who have never lived here, or have visited as tourists. And as I have already tried to explain, tourists with that disrespectful "tourist attitude" aren't treated very well wherever they travel - no matter what color their skin. I have found that even tourists who attempt to understand the islands, and treat those living here with courtesy and respect, receive plenty in return.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Dean,

I would respectfully remind you that I did live there in Hawaii and experienced some of the very things outlined in the links that Axel posted.

Might I remind you that just because a person does not experience something , does not mean it does not exist . Hense axels rose colored glasses comment. ( yes I said Axel and Rose)

Since moving back to the mainland many years ago, I have vacationed in Hawaii many times and have always been treated with respect.

That said, I still have heard countless horror stories about bad treatment people get .

Stuff like that just don't get made up.

Some people do have thicker hide that others and look the other way or deny when it happens.

But no one can tell what I in fact experienced.

[Dypsisdean]

Jeff,

Let me clarify what I said - and that is that I have found that most "anti-haole" stories do not come from people who have lived here long. I was not questioning your experience. My disagreement with your statement was specifically that I don't think "most mainlanders living in Hawaii experience""race hate."

Now I won't try to sugarcoat how some newcomers, some school kids, or some surfers may be treated - but I do know that schools, surf breaks, and neighborhoods everywhere have a similar "localism." It is not unique to Hawaii.

It always amazes me how two locals punch it out, and it's just a fight. But if a local and haole get into it, it must be racially motivated.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Dean,

I'm not sure we are in the right thread, but I will address your last statement as it relates to some of my experiences .

When two locals punch it out it may be just a fight.

When you see a local and a haole fighting, there are most likely are several other locals kicking the haole on the ground screaming "fu##ing haole".

That makes it racially motivated.

[Dypsisdean]

That makes it racially motivated.

Perhaps - but by whom? Or are the haoles always guiltless?

Regardless, I think you would have to agree that there are plenty of places on the mainland where you could tell the same story - just change the name of the races. But fortunately, like Hawaii, those places and circumstances are easy to avoid with a little common sense.

Again - nothing unique to Hawaii.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Agreed!