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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

The rapidly disappearing ice

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

This is a great article worth a read for those interested in the empirical evidence of the disappearance of ice around the globe.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2014/01/31/268356264/a-hunk-of-planet-dissolves-before-our-eyes

Greenland and Antarctica are very remote, and were considered to be big ice boxes that responded not very fast to climate change. We never developed a mechanism to observe them until we had satellites and lasers. Now we see some surfaces lowering up to 50 meters per year." He repeated that number, to make sure Craig heard. "Fifty — five-zero — meters per year." That's a vertical drop of about 150 feet. In two years, that's 300 feet. Then 450. Year after year — enormous piles of ice melting into the sea.

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Stevetoad

Am I the only one who's completely burned out on this topic? It's to hot...global warming, it's to cold...global warming, it's to dry...global warming, it's rains to much...global warming, lack of weather...global warming, its stormy...global warming, growing ice in Antarctica...global warming, shrinking ice in the arctic...global warming, I stubbed my toe...global warming, I caught a cold...global warming, my girlfriend left me...global warming,hbo canceled hello ladies...global warming, my palm trees are growing well...global warming, my palm trees are growing badly...global warming.....and on.....and on... and on.........

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_Keith

The climate is changing. Since the beginning, the climate has always been changing. Till the end, the climate will never quit changing. Man may be changing it, but if so man will never quit changing it. It is not the strongest that survive, it is the most adaptable. Adapt as all of mankind before you has. It is the only reason we are here to yak about now, and the only reason some will be here to yak about it in the future.

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Am I the only one who's completely burned out on this topic? It's to hot...global warming, it's to cold...global warming, it's to dry...global warming, it's rains to much...global warming, lack of weather...global warming, its stormy...global warming, growing ice in Antarctica...global warming, shrinking ice in the arctic...global warming, I stubbed my toe...global warming, I caught a cold...global warming, my girlfriend left me...global warming,hbo canceled hello ladies...global warming, my palm trees are growing well...global warming, my palm trees are growing badly...global warming.....and on.....and on... and on.........

The rate at which the ice is melting in the arctic is a very interesting topic, but if it doesn't interest you, that's fine, but why don't you just ignore the thread instead of being so dismissive?

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Stevetoad

Am I the only one who's completely burned out on this topic? It's to hot...global warming, it's to cold...global warming, it's to dry...global warming, it's rains to much...global warming, lack of weather...global warming, its stormy...global warming, growing ice in Antarctica...global warming, shrinking ice in the arctic...global warming, I stubbed my toe...global warming, I caught a cold...global warming, my girlfriend left me...global warming,hbo canceled hello ladies...global warming, my palm trees are growing well...global warming, my palm trees are growing badly...global warming.....and on.....and on... and on.........

The rate at which the ice is melting in the arctic is a very interesting topic, but if it doesn't interest you, that's fine, but why don't you just ignore the thread instead of being so dismissive?

Guess I could ignore it but I thought this was a discussion board. My bad. This topic is treated like a religion and the leaders of it are a part of the "do as I say not as i do" crew. To me it looks like a money making,power grabbing swindle. When you hear "global warming deniers are like holocaust deniers" that should throw a red flag to anyone. Since the industrial revolution I don't see anyone in SoCal growing a fruiting coconut or andonidias. If man made global warming is true then I really hope it starts cooking soon so I can get my yard to zone 11.

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Hammer

A chicken in every pot and zone 11 in every yard!

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Am I the only one who's completely burned out on this topic? It's to hot...global warming, it's to cold...global warming, it's to dry...global warming, it's rains to much...global warming, lack of weather...global warming, its stormy...global warming, growing ice in Antarctica...global warming, shrinking ice in the arctic...global warming, I stubbed my toe...global warming, I caught a cold...global warming, my girlfriend left me...global warming,hbo canceled hello ladies...global warming, my palm trees are growing well...global warming, my palm trees are growing badly...global warming.....and on.....and on... and on.........

The rate at which the ice is melting in the arctic is a very interesting topic, but if it doesn't interest you, that's fine, but why don't you just ignore the thread instead of being so dismissive?

Guess I could ignore it but I thought this was a discussion board. My bad. This topic is treated like a religion and the leaders of it are a part of the "do as I say not as i do" crew. To me it looks like a money making,power grabbing swindle. When you hear "global warming deniers are like holocaust deniers" that should throw a red flag to anyone. Since the industrial revolution I don't see anyone in SoCal growing a fruiting coconut or andonidias. If man made global warming is true then I really hope it starts cooking soon so I can get my yard to zone 11.

A discussion board means there are lots of topics to discuss and if some are boring to you, then don't bother discussing them. But if you want to hang out in this thread and talk about it, then let's stay on topic. For starters, this topic wasn't about man-made global warming and the "do as I say not as i do crew" you are talking about. It was just about the observed ice melts and the folks who chase the ice. So please don't derail this thread and make it about man-made global warming. I can just be about the ice melts.

It doesn't bother me the least that you or anyone else believe this ice melting has nothing to do with man-made global warming, and the last thing I am interested in doing is to have a useless debate about man-made global warming. The video shows a spectacular ice melt, it's worth watching and it's quite interesting to talk about why all that ice is melting and about what it might means for growing zone 11 plants in Santee or not.

So can we leave the annoying "man-made global warming" stuff aside and get this back on topic?

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Stevetoad

Fair enough but I still would like a zone 11

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amazondk

I think I am in zone 13. Axel that is a very amazing video. It made me imagine what it must have been like when the world came out of the last ice age. Or any other ice age. There must have been incredible events as the ice melted, the sea levels rose quickly, and man was around watching it all. Since I grew up in the area of a glaciated landscape with nearby mountains still containing glaciers, Glacier National Park, I have always been awed by the scale of geologic movements of the Earth. Here where I live on the Amazon River changes have happened on a grand scale from time to time. The Amazon River originally flowed from west to east as it does now. Then when South America broke away from Africa the land on the east of the continent rose and the river changed course flowing from est to west. Then as the Andes mountains rose the flow shifted back to west to east. One of the indications of this is that the sting rays found in Amazonian waters are related to the Pacific ocean sting rays not the Atlantic ocean sting rays. Another is from geologic signs mentioned in this artical - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061025-amazon-river.html .

Back to the video I do not see any connection with why the world is warming or not. Calving of glaciers has various causes from what I have read. Glaciers move. And, we are still in an interglacial where the normal trend is to get warmer and have less ice.

dk

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Dakotafl

Am I the only one who's completely burned out on this topic? It's to hot...global warming, it's to cold...global warming, it's to dry...global warming, it's rains to much...global warming, lack of weather...global warming, its stormy...global warming, growing ice in Antarctica...global warming, shrinking ice in the arctic...global warming, I stubbed my toe...global warming, I caught a cold...global warming, my girlfriend left me...global warming,hbo canceled hello ladies...global warming, my palm trees are growing well...global warming, my palm trees are growing badly...global warming.....and on.....and on... and on.........

Finally someone else says it, i try to stay away from this kind of topic but i don't like to be scolded for being a "Global Warming Denier", every few decades we need to invent problems to blame things on, Global Warming is what is in now.

Ice in the arctic naturally dissapears when it gets warmer, then it reappears as it get colder, i think that is what these people see and they might not realize it.

Besides, its not like the world would be so bad 1F warmer....

Edited by Dakotafl
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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Am I the only one who's completely burned out on this topic? It's to hot...global warming, it's to cold...global warming, it's to dry...global warming, it's rains to much...global warming, lack of weather...global warming, its stormy...global warming, growing ice in Antarctica...global warming, shrinking ice in the arctic...global warming, I stubbed my toe...global warming, I caught a cold...global warming, my girlfriend left me...global warming,hbo canceled hello ladies...global warming, my palm trees are growing well...global warming, my palm trees are growing badly...global warming.....and on.....and on... and on.........

Finally someone else says it, i try to stay away from this kind of topic but i don't like to be scolded for being a "Global Warming Denier", every few decades we need to invent problems to blame things on, Global Warming is what is in now.

Ice in the arctic naturally dissapears when it gets warmer, then it reappears as it get colder, i think that is what these people see and they might not realize it.

Besides, its not like the world would be so bad 1F warmer....

I find it concerning that there are so many people who aren't willing to try to understand what is going on, and instead have some emotional reaction that involves either ignoring the whole thing or going along with doomsday scenarios. Neither extreme is accurate. The press will tag every single event to global warming. But none of that is accurate either.

Well, the fact is that the globe is gradually warming so the ice is melting at unprecedented rates. Denying that would be denying reality, the data is there. But what's not clear is why it's happening and what that means in the future. The worst gloomsday scenarios paint a picture where the ice melts at such a rate that it desalinates the Gulf stream near the coast of Norway where it dives to lower depth to return to Florida, and as a result, the jet stream shuts down. This in turn leads to an abrupt return to an ice age. The desalination is already taking place, they've measured it, as well as the increase in ocean temperatures. Past ice melts during ice ages have lead to abrupt shut downs of the current in the past, so it's not Science fiction.

The most realistic scenario that I actually believe personally is the one the German researchers are predicting. The jet stream will fail thanks to the unprecedented ice melts, but thanks to the added CO2 and large scale human activity, the planet doesn't dive into an ice age. However, those areas that depend on the jet stream such as Northern Europe will see longer Winters and crop failures in scandinavian countries. However, when we run out of oil, the CO2 gradually decrease and will no longer be able to offset the lack of ocean circulation, at which point things gradually cool.

However, given that CO2 emissions only accounts for 1/4th of the warning of the globe, I don't really see what we can change at this point anyway. If you live in Northern Europe or New England, it might just get colder. If you live in the West, Winters might get drier. If you live on the Gulf you might just see more frequent freezes. And if you have beach-front property anywhere, then it might be under water in another 50 years.

This video is worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyAEucg6teg

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Funkthulhu

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

My mantra, It's not helping!

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PalmatierMeg

Ah, yes, Global Warming. When I was in college, it was Nuclear Winter. Who remembers when we were doomed from that?

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amazondk

Ah, yes, Global Warming. When I was in college, it was Nuclear Winter. Who remembers when we were doomed from that?

I do. I was raised in the middle of one of the largest concentrations of multi warhead ICMBs in the world In fact by the time I was in high school there were 300 missles scattered around central Montana with 10 warheads on each minuteman missle. Since it would take 30 minutes for an incoming missle to reach it's target and I was right in the middle of one of prime targets there was not you could except sit around to watch the show if it happened. The missles are still there, And, for those further away from the main show nuclear winter was surely to come.

dk

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Silas_Sancona

SteveToad, So, if SoCal achieves solid zone 11 status, and fruiting Cocos, i guess this means I'll be able to grow Mangosteen and Cloves outdoors here. Sounds like a plan.

-Nathan-

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Hammer

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

*I will not exacerbate another global warming thread*

My mantra, It's not helping!

Stay strong!

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MattyB

You forgot about the chem-trails they're spraying to reflect the sun and keep us cooler. And how can one Chandra be so Levy?

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Dypsisdean

The worst gloomsday scenarios paint a picture where the ice melts at such a rate that it desalinates the Gulf stream near the coast of Norway where it dives to lower depth to return to Florida, and as a result, the jet stream shuts down. This in turn leads to an abrupt return to an ice age.

This is the best theory I have heard so far.

It might get so warm that we are plunged into an ice age.

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displaced_floridian

"...the Jet Stream will fail thanks to the unprecedented ice melts..." Axel, I believe you meant Gulf Stream, not Jet Stream.

Edited by displaced_floridian

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_Keith

The worst gloomsday scenarios paint a picture where the ice melts at such a rate that it desalinates the Gulf stream near the coast of Norway where it dives to lower depth to return to Florida, and as a result, the jet stream shuts down. This in turn leads to an abrupt return to an ice age.

This is the best theory I have heard so far.

It might get so warm that we are plunged into an ice age.

Pretty much the theme of the movie "The Day After Tomorrow"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319262/

MV5BMTU1NTA3NzMwOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzEz

And here is a nice WeatherUnderground article on the matter.

http://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/thedayafter.asp

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

The worst gloomsday scenarios paint a picture where the ice melts at such a rate that it desalinates the Gulf stream near the coast of Norway where it dives to lower depth to return to Florida, and as a result, the jet stream shuts down. This in turn leads to an abrupt return to an ice age.

This is the best theory I have heard so far.

It might get so warm that we are plunged into an ice age.

I should have written "gulf stream" instead of "jet stream", but yes, this is what some of the prediction models are saying. I don't make up this stuff, this is the theory. A breakdown of the jet stream from the ice melts associated with warming is going to lead to extreme cooling and would reverse the loss in ice, actually increasing the ice, pushing it much further South. Such changes are not gradual, they're abrupt, and paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

If you actually watch the one hour long BBC documentary and see first hand the data itself and how the scientists are coming to those conclusions, you won't be making fun of it anymore.

Now if the accelerated ice melts and associated shut down of the jet stream coincide with a lower than usual solar minimum, then we might just have the perfect conditions to bring about such an abrupt shift.

When you consider that computer models from as little as 10 years ago taking into account increases in CO2 predicted the un-precedented high pressure blocking pattern off the West Coast of the United States we experienced this year for the first time in the history of recorded weather data in California (~1850), I wouldn't dismiss these predictions either. This stuff is already happening, they have measured the decrease in salinity and the increase in water temperatures.

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Dypsisdean

paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

Hmmmmm - so these types of abrupt changes have occurred long before man even started burning hydrocarbons???

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

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amazondk

Dean, Here is the conclusion of this article - http://www.wunderground.com/resources/climate/abruptclimate.asp .

"Conclusion

The historical records shows us that abrupt climate change is not only possible--it is the normal state of affairs. The present warm, stable climate is a rare anomaly. It behooves us to learn as much as we can about the climate system so that we may be able to predict when the next abrupt shift in climate will come. Until we know better when this might happen, it would be wise to stop pouring so much carbon dioxide into the air. A nasty surprise might be lurking just around the corner. In the words of Dr. Wally Broecker, "the climate system is an angry beast, and we are poking it.""

From the information in one of the graphs I posted on another thread what is common are periods like the present interglacial as well. And, this is not the warmest interglacial, at least up to this date. Others have been warmer. And, since polar bears have been around for about 600,000 years they seem to be able to adapt ok to less ice.

dk

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Zeeth

paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

Hmmmmm - so these types of abrupt changes have occurred long before man even started burning hydrocarbons???

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

Not nearly as many big companies that stand to benefit from the public not accepting global warming.

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Dakotafl

How come in places where more people believe in Global Warming the taxes always seem to be higher? like they have to tax us to death for living and breathing.

I've noticed the ability of some of these Global ..Warmists? to undervalue Human Life...which is uncomfortable, over all though, and about the sea levels rising which i see no evidence of, i've been watching the Indian River Lagoon for years and no rise has ever occurred, its at the same level it ever was, boat erosion happens but no rise in sea levels.

CO2 is good, Plants love it, imagine if we had none, these "experts" have some serious gaps in their theories, i believe in protecting the environment and all but this is a big money making scheme, that is all and now more and more people are recognizing this.

Edited by Dakotafl

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

Hmmmmm - so these types of abrupt changes have occurred long before man even started burning hydrocarbons???

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

The thing is, apparently, the hydrocarbons are only part of the story. Some of the warming comes just from human activity, i.e. our changes to the landscape. I don't understand it all, but even if we stop burning fossil fuels, there would still be some modest warming.

I've been asking myself the same question. There are no giant established corporations that benefit from global warming, so the "conspiracy" talks are mis-placed. However, there is a "cottage industry" that is gaining in momentum, and getting more significant - solar power, electric cars, etc... but all of these we need anyway because oil resources are finite.

How come in places where more people believe in Global Warming the taxes always seem to be higher? like they have to tax us to death for living and breathing.

I've noticed the ability of some of these Global ..Warmists? to undervalue Human Life...which is uncomfortable, over all though, and about the sea levels rising which i see no evidence of, i've been watching the Indian River Lagoon for years and no rise has ever occurred, its at the same level it ever was, boat erosion happens but no rise in sea levels.

CO2 is good, Plants love it, imagine if we had none, these "experts" have some serious gaps in their theories, i believe in protecting the environment and all but this is a big money making scheme, that is all and now more and more people are recognizing this.

Lets see, global warming is likely to cause a lot of deaths because of crop failures, hunger, and super storms and other extreme weather. So who are really the folks who undervalue life? Those that are calling for us to do something about global warming so we can avoid the deaths of those that actually deny that global warming is happening?

It's interesting to note that the same people for whom "global warming acceptance" would eat into their profits also promote less taxes for themselves. The irony is that "less taxes" rarely applies to people like you and me, but mostly to corporate taxes. So that leaves me to wonder, who stands to gain from trying to expose global warming as a myth? Who passed laws to promote more consumption of fossil fuels so all their financial interests would make more money for them?

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Hammer

paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

Hmmmmm - so these types of abrupt changes have occurred long before man even started burning hydrocarbons???

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

The thing is, apparently, the hydrocarbons are only part of the story. Some of the warming comes just from human activity, i.e. our changes to the landscape. I don't understand it all, but even if we stop burning fossil fuels, there would still be some modest warming.

I've been asking myself the same question. There are no giant established corporations that benefit from global warming, so the "conspiracy" talks are mis-placed. However, there is a "cottage industry" that is gaining in momentum, and getting more significant - solar power, electric cars, etc... but all of these we need anyway because oil resources are finite.

How come in places where more people believe in Global Warming the taxes always seem to be higher? like they have to tax us to death for living and breathing.

I've noticed the ability of some of these Global ..Warmists? to undervalue Human Life...which is uncomfortable, over all though, and about the sea levels rising which i see no evidence of, i've been watching the Indian River Lagoon for years and no rise has ever occurred, its at the same level it ever was, boat erosion happens but no rise in sea levels.

CO2 is good, Plants love it, imagine if we had none, these "experts" have some serious gaps in their theories, i believe in protecting the environment and all but this is a big money making scheme, that is all and now more and more people are recognizing this.

Lets see, global warming is likely to cause a lot of deaths because of crop failures, hunger, and super storms and other extreme weather. So who are really the folks who undervalue life? Those that are calling for us to do something about global warming so we can avoid the deaths of those that actually deny that global warming is happening?

It's interesting to note that the same people for whom "global warming acceptance" would eat into their profits also promote less taxes for themselves. The irony is that "less taxes" rarely applies to people like you and me, but mostly to corporate taxes. So that leaves me to wonder, who stands to gain from trying to expose global warming as a myth? Who passed laws to promote more consumption of fossil fuels so all their financial interests would make more money for them?

When arguing the efficacy of taxes and against whom to levy them, one must remember that corporations never pay taxes. People do. Taxes and tax increases are always passed along to the end consumer in the form of higher prices.

Taxes as a punitive measure against companies or as a method to change behavior is simply not an effective strategy. In the end that strategy takes money from the pockets of people...making it harder to make ends meet for the average person.

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_Keith

Folks you are treading into dangerous territory if you want this thread to live on. Remember politics is off limits on PT. Best to stick to the science, or lack thereof.

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Hammer

Folks you are treading into dangerous territory...

Yes indeed. But isn't it fun?!!

Dean, Keith makes a good point. If my comment is too close to the line please delete it. I don't want one comment to kill the thread.

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PALM MOD

Folks you are treading into dangerous territory...

Yes indeed. But isn't it fun?!!

Dean, Keith makes a good point. If my comment is too close to the line please delete it. I don't want one comment to kill the thread.

I am (and have been) stretching the envelope a bit regarding this topic. But it is obviously so close and important to the mind set of all us gardeners, that I am going a bit out on a limb allowing it. And as long as everyone continues to be civil and respectful, I will try and let such a provocative topic continue.

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Dypsisdean

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

I've been asking myself the same question. There are no giant established corporations that benefit from global warming, so the "conspiracy" talks are mis-placed.

Not so Axel. As discussed above, but that we are not supposed to mention, there are "forces" much bigger, more powerful, and IMO more scary than corporations who stand to benefit.
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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

I've been asking myself the same question. There are no giant established corporations that benefit from global warming, so the "conspiracy" talks are mis-placed.

Not so Axel. As discussed above, but that we are not supposed to mention, there are "forces" much bigger, more powerful, and IMO more scary than corporations who stand to benefit.

Dean, send me a PM if you can't say who in a post, I am genuinely interested to find out what forces stand to gain from global warming theories being put forth as a lie.

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amazondk

paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

Hmmmmm - so these types of abrupt changes have occurred long before man even started burning hydrocarbons???

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

The thing is, apparently, the hydrocarbons are only part of the story. Some of the warming comes just from human activity, i.e. our changes to the landscape. I don't understand it all, but even if we stop burning fossil fuels, there would still be some modest warming.

I've been asking myself the same question. There are no giant established corporations that benefit from global warming, so the "conspiracy" talks are mis-placed. However, there is a "cottage industry" that is gaining in momentum, and getting more significant - solar power, electric cars, etc... but all of these we need anyway because oil resources are finite.

How come in places where more people believe in Global Warming the taxes always seem to be higher? like they have to tax us to death for living and breathing.

I've noticed the ability of some of these Global ..Warmists? to undervalue Human Life...which is uncomfortable, over all though, and about the sea levels rising which i see no evidence of, i've been watching the Indian River Lagoon for years and no rise has ever occurred, its at the same level it ever was, boat erosion happens but no rise in sea levels.

CO2 is good, Plants love it, imagine if we had none, these "experts" have some serious gaps in their theories, i believe in protecting the environment and all but this is a big money making scheme, that is all and now more and more people are recognizing this.

Lets see, global warming is likely to cause a lot of deaths because of crop failures, hunger, and super storms and other extreme weather. So who are really the folks who undervalue life? Those that are calling for us to do something about global warming so we can avoid the deaths of those that actually deny that global warming is happening?

Isn't it more likely that crop failures will be caused more by cooling than warming? The country I live in is almost entirely in the tropics. And, it is one of the most productive agricultural nations in the world. In the central west of Brazil, mostly the state of Mato Grosso the agriculture is extremely productive. In contrast to a region with marked seasons and a part of the year that is frozen in Brazil the farmer can produce 3 full crops a year. In fact one of the great successes is exactly this. They rotate the planting between several crops, soy beans, cotton, corn, sorghum, sunflowers, etc. And, now have added grass for pasture. The farms rotate the cattle onto new pastures planted in the same areas that the crops were planted. Added to this is the practice of direct planting where the next crop is planted as the previous one is harvested. The return of the organic matter to the soil has actually increased soil fertility in these areas upwards of 1000 percent in the past 20 years. The only factor that is a problem at times is rainfall. Although this is mitigated by irrigation in many areas. By rainfall it is the seasonal; lack in some years. Freezing is never a problem. Even here in Amazonia with extremely poor soil for the most part the practice of agro forestry and rotation between plant crops and cattle has had success. And, this mixed with tree plantations. The bread basket of Brazil is the central west.

As you can see by the map all of this area is closer to equator than any part in the continental USA.

280px-Central-West_Region_in_Brazil.svg.

So, I really have a hard time understanding why a warmer planet would have crop failures. Maybe some areas would be less productive. But, other areas would be more. The opposite is true. Crop failures truly come from a colder planet. And, the historical evidence is that when the Earth is colder it is drier. Personally I do not think the issue is to deny anything. What is true is that our current inter glacial is not one of the warmest up to this point. And, we are getting to the end of the normal inter glacial cycle.

Hot climate agriculture can be very profitable.

download2_zps0bfcc9c5.jpg

And productive.

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gd_413_12-07_agropecuaria-2_zps833cd0f7.

Now wonder if Iowa could produce 3 crops a year? I just can not see where the idea that a warmer planet will be a worse place to live. One thing for sure and proven by geologic history is that a colder one is. And, all of the palm growers in marginal palm zones spend money and a lot of effort to grow something that belongs in a warmer location. I guess a lot of what people perceive when they look at the world has a lot to do with where they are. And, in many respects a lot of Americans do not have a good grasp of what the rest of the world is made up of. Brazil still has tremendous areas of usable land to put into high yield production. And, this is without cutting down one tree. It is just by making degraded land productive again. The same could be said of many tropical areas of the world.

dk

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Ed in Houston
Where is Waldo, not in space but in time?
One should know the context of their existence.
Temperature data from the Greenland ice core drill.
Ed in Houston

GreenlandIceCores15000.png

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Dypsisdean

Dean, send me a PM if you can't say who in a post, I am genuinely interested to find out what forces stand to gain from global warming theories being put forth as a lie.

Axel,

I can't believe you can't come up with the answer on your own. Think about it. It is so obvious you are overlooking it.

If you haven't figured it out by the time you visit in a few weeks, we can discuss it and how to help make the world run better then. :)

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Dypsisdean

Lets see, global warming is likely to cause a lot of deaths because of crop failures

I'm with Amazon Don on this one. I have heard the idea proposed that a gradual warming would shift the "sweet spot" for the massive grain production now possible in the bread basket of the United States (the 'wheat belt,' 'corn belt,' etc) further north to larger areas in central Canada and open up vastly more area in the Soviet Union for this type of agriculture.

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Zeeth

Lets see, global warming is likely to cause a lot of deaths because of crop failures

I'm with Amazon Don on this one. I have heard the idea proposed that a gradual warming would shift the "sweet spot" for the massive grain production now possible in the bread basket of the United States (the 'wheat belt,' 'corn belt,' etc) further north to larger areas in central Canada and open up vastly more area in the Soviet Union for this type of agriculture.

Soviet union?

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Dypsisdean

Soviet union?

Isn't Putin wishing he could put it back together? :)

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Phoenikakias

paleoclimatologists have verified that this has occurred before in an abrupt fashion.

Hmmmmm - so these types of abrupt changes have occurred long before man even started burning hydrocarbons???

One question - who has the most to gain from the promulgating and public acceptance of these man made global warming theories?

THEY live among us...

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Dean, send me a PM if you can't say who in a post, I am genuinely interested to find out what forces stand to gain from global warming theories being put forth as a lie.

Axel,

I can't believe you can't come up with the answer on your own. Think about it. It is so obvious you are overlooking it.

If you haven't figured it out by the time you visit in a few weeks, we can discuss it and how to help make the world run better then. :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_conspiracy_theory

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