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palm tree man

This one of the first palms that I grew from seed and even now no one really knows what it is or how it came to reside in a private garden in Riverside California. It is tougher than nails and can take hot, cold, ice,

snow, drought, dampness and really always looks great. It is a species of Carribbean origin and possibly a hybrid between one of the large Cuban or Dominican species and possibly Sabal Texana, Palmetto, or

Bermudana.

I know the stories about the all seed growing true from the original plant and that the original plant has been lost in time so to speak and the road construction story, but all stories aside what is it really?

Next to one of mine I have a Bermudana that was planted at the same age and same size; the Riverside was probably a bit smaller actually.

It has out grown it and outperformed it on all levels and grows strait through the winter.

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palm tree man

The funny thing about it as well to me is the flowering structure. It is fairly upright and totally different than Palmetto which to me possibly rules it out as a possible mix in the gene pool. It does resemble Domingensis but it

also does not in many ways. It really does not resemble Bermudana to me either; the leaves are very different. Mine has been setting seed long before it started to trunk and earlier than any other sabal species that I have

grown. Has anyone done anytype of DNA study on it? There is nothing concrete on the internet about what it is or how it was created if it is a hybrid. I thought everything about this palm was just a sales pitch or hype like

allot of "new species or varieties" but everything about this palm is 100% true. It is fast growing "for a sabal", very cold hardy, and very large.

Edited by palm tree man

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Alicehunter2000

But sadly....no pictures....lol.

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Sandy Loam

Hi Palm Tree Man.

There is an old thread on PalmTalk in which Phil Bergman of Jungle Music (California) tells the whole history of the Sabal Riverside. If I recall correctly, the seed which started it all was labelled "sabal - Riverside", meaning a random sabal palm located in Riverside, California, and not some new species of sabal. Confusion ensued and, supposedly, people mistakenly grew to believe that Sabal Riverside was a new hybrid or species of its own. In reality, it was probably just a Sabal Domingensis, according to speculation.

This is what I think I recall from that old PalmTalk post, but I could be mistaken.

Are you sure that yours doesn't just look like a Sabal Domingensis?

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palm tree man

It looks slightly different to me, it is possible that it is sabal domingensis that is just slightly more hardy. The funny thing is this palm is at my farm and has never been protected; during severe cold events like 2010 my Hat Palm experienced leaf

damage and it is supposedly more leaf hardy than Dom. The Riverside had light snow on it and it did not seem to care at all. My father ran over it with the tractor twice and cut it to the ground while I was working out of state. It still survived and

has out grown all my other sabals by leaps and bounds. Phil told me that same story; I speak with him from time to time. My Dom has not yet flowered so I can't compare them on that level. The Dom, Bur, Caur, and Riverside are all the same

age though, so it is perplexing to me.

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palm tree man

The first three pics are in 2009 in February

1. Sabal Riverside

2. Sabal Burmudana

3. Livistona Decipiens "Decora"

The next three are to syagrus that I am unsure of the identity.

1. Orange clay pot Syagrus Schizophylla?

2. Green clay pot Syagrus Kellyana?

I have snow pics of the Sabal somewhere too and more current ones I think; will have to look.

post-9629-0-14514300-1392354845_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-06097800-1392354923_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-94324100-1392354931_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-55904600-1392354960_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-09257700-1392355034_thumb.jp

Edited by palm tree man

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palm tree man

Here are a few more pictures of both the Riverside and the Bermudana three years later.

post-9629-0-57193800-1392403397_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-36709500-1392403443_thumb.jp

Edited by palm tree man

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palm tree man

Files are too large having to adjust them. These pictures are of Bermudana.

The next file is of both of them together Bermudana on the L and Riverside on the R.

Final pic is of Bermudana again.

post-9629-0-37276300-1392403905_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-47295100-1392404039_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-76117300-1392404167_thumb.jp

Edited by palm tree man

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Brad-Tampa

U. A. Young was President of the IPS from 1974 - 76.

From 1958 to about 1985 he sprouted and tried to grow whatever palm seed he could get. Obtained from wild, botanical collections, or trade, he wanted to see what would grow in Central Florida, specifically South Tampa. Many palms were lost to freezes or other failures, but he always said it just opened up room for something else. During that time, and as a physician, he was at a medical convention in LA. His companions rented a car for a free day golfing at Pebble Beach. U.A. rented a car and drove to the residential property location along a highway in Riverside where one of his palm friends had located the Sabal. Out of place in California but of unknown origin, he collected seed and grew this palm pictured here. Native Sabal palmetto can be sen in the background.

post-771-0-19805200-1392425688_thumb.jpg

post-771-0-04374000-1392425708_thumb.jpg

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palm tree man

He made many contributions to the IPS and to the many free spirited growers in the Southeast and in the world for that matter. When I think of men like him, I think of the fabled "Johnny Appleseed"; they were pioneers in horticulture. Unafraid to test the boundaries like many members of this forum. The palm in the picture and mine do share some similarities, but the leaf structure still looks slightly different but this could be do to environmental issues. Sabal Palmetto grows natrually in my location as well and you can tell a definite difference at a glance between them just like in your picture. Beautiful photos by the way. The entire Tampa area is nice; maybe when I retire I might move down there or to Ponce Inlet below Daytona. Thanks again.

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Brahea Axel

Sabal riverside is just a specific stable 'form' of a species of sabal just like blackburniana is. No one has come up with a good analysis as to which one, it just stays true to its form. I purchased both of these from Gary Wood in Fallbrook. My riverside species was way overgrown and quite unhealthy when I got it from his closeout sale. I am not gonna complain, $4 for a 5 gallon rootbound sabal is really a give away. But it's taken a full year to get going. It's picked the middle of Winter to start growing again, now that's a pretty good sign. Note, unlike in the post referred below, I see significant differences even as seedlings between riverside, causiarum, blackburniana and dominguensis. They have totally different growing forms leaf wise and leaf texture wise.

Here's the original story from Phil, which you can find if you search for 'sabal riverside story' See http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6538-sabal-riverside/

Ed Moore (from San Diego, past President So Cal Chapter IPS) is now about 90 years old. He told me that when he was young, it was almost impossible to get different palm trees. About fifty years ago he visited a private botanical garden (owned by a wealthy individual) and saw this huge blue-green Sabal. He collected seeds and sold several hundred of them. He called them "Sabal-Riverside" at the time and put a tag in each plant. The original plant survived for a while and as I recall the site became a public garden (? Wright Park) for some time but was eventually plowed under. The palm was apparently lost or moved. Ed told me after a decade or two, people just started calling it Sabal Riverside as if it were a species. I've got a huge seeding specimen in my yard. The seeds are about the size of a small marble with the fruit, which is black. It's trunk is thick, the leaves are quite large, but the petioles are not real long; perhaps 6 feet. The photo from RPS above looks like it, but Maxwell's palm is too stretched out in the petioles. I question whether it's the real thing. If I can get around to it, I'll shoot a few photos some day. There's several in Morley Field next to Balboa Park in San Diego. That's where most of the seed brokers get their seeds.

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Zeeth

U. A. Young was President of the IPS from 1974 - 76.

From 1958 to about 1985 he sprouted and tried to grow whatever palm seed he could get. Obtained from wild, botanical collections, or trade, he wanted to see what would grow in Central Florida, specifically South Tampa. Many palms were lost to freezes or other failures, but he always said it just opened up room for something else. During that time, and as a physician, he was at a medical convention in LA. His companions rented a car for a free day golfing at Pebble Beach. U.A. rented a car and drove to the residential property location along a highway in Riverside where one of his palm friends had located the Sabal. Out of place in California but of unknown origin, he collected seed and grew this palm pictured here. Native Sabal palmetto can be sen in the background.

attachicon.gifS.riverside1.jpg

attachicon.gifS.riverside2.jpg

Do you know if this palm will be relocated to Kopsick?

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Brad-Tampa

U. A. Young was President of the IPS from 1974 - 76.

From 1958 to about 1985 he sprouted and tried to grow whatever palm seed he could get. Obtained from wild, botanical collections, or trade, he wanted to see what would grow in Central Florida, specifically South Tampa. Many palms were lost to freezes or other failures, but he always said it just opened up room for something else. During that time, and as a physician, he was at a medical convention in LA. His companions rented a car for a free day golfing at Pebble Beach. U.A. rented a car and drove to the residential property location along a highway in Riverside where one of his palm friends had located the Sabal. Out of place in California but of unknown origin, he collected seed and grew this palm pictured here. Native Sabal palmetto can be sen in the background.

attachicon.gifS.riverside1.jpg

attachicon.gifS.riverside2.jpg

Do you know if this palm will be relocated to Kopsick?

The cutoff spot in the palm priority list has not been made.

It's going to St Pete if it makes the cut, otherwise I hope it can stay right there. .

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Sandy Loam

The fast growth rate and large size are factors which have led to the speculation that Sabal Riverside might really be a Sabal Domingensis (or, I suppose, a hybrid of sabal domingensis). Sabal Riverside definitely looks like a sabal anyway. Sabal Lisa, on the other hand --- in case you've never seen one --- almost doesn't look like a sabal at all. There is one growing at Kanapaha Botanical Gardens in Gainesville, Florida, and it looks totally different from other sabals with its straight fronds. It's also supposed to be a Florida native, but a rare one from the southern part of the state. Not to get too far off-topic....

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palm tree man

I am glad that you mentioned Sabal "Lisa". It is a really cool and unusual Sabal, the leaf structure is totally different and the leaves are fused together. They also appear to have a greener coloration. From what I have read "Lisa" is a rare mutation of Sabal Palmetto. This makes me think that you are right and that Sabal Riverside could be a more hardy variety or a mutation of Sabal Dom. Mutation, adaptation, and specialization happens all the time in nature. A special flower color, taste, or sent to attract a species of bird or insect for pollination are examples. You have made a very good point in just mentioning "Lisa".

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Brad Mondel

I purchased this Sabal as 'Riverside' but I'm not sure if it's the true form, I can't tell the difference.

Can anyone explain the differences in Sabal 'Riverside' VS Sabal Palmetto ?

b3k74g.jpg

Edited by ArchAngeL01

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palm tree man

The leaves don't look as blue as mine. I will post a few pics of some small Riverside tomorrow for us to compare. Could you take a pic in front of the palm, so that I can see the overall shape. I can use the brick to get a size comparison; they look like modular which makes them 3 1/2 by 7 5/8. Thanks and I will help you if I can or at least give you the most accurate information possible.

1. Riverside is much larger think Sabal Dom or Sabal Causiarum

2. The leaves are larger and a different shape and color.

3. This is an important one to me that you can't tell until they flower but the size, shape, location, etc of the flowering structure is totally different

These are the 3 main differences off the top of my head along with speed of growth and there isn't another hardy sabal that can touch its speed.

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palm tree man

Take a look at my up close picture of the inflorescence on the Riverside. Also note that the Burmudana is the same age and currently has not flowered yet and the Riverside has been for years. I had also cut the longest inflorescence off to harvest the seed. It was over 6'8" feet long to give you a scale, I am 6'2" and it was taller than me and is taller than a standard door jam which is 6'8". Much larger than any Palmetto that i have seen and it is upright as well.

Edited by palm tree man

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Brad Mondel

So S.Riverside blooms at a fairly young age? I've only had mine for about a year and it was neglected because of my work load. I noticed the

fronds on your Riverside aren't as costapalmate as the Riverside Brad posted. I will take some more pictures of my palm tomorrow but it's only

retaining two fronds right now with a spear opening. Thanks for the posts, I'm still confused about Riverside but maybe we can get to the bottom of this. :indifferent:

Edited by ArchAngeL01

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Brad Mondel

Palm tree man, are you certain you have a S.Riverside? Yours reminds me a lot of a mature Sabal Minor. How old is it? Does it have a trunk? Can you post a picture

of the seeds? Here is a picture of a Sabal Minor with a very tall inflorescence. I haven't heard of Riverside blooming this young but maybe I'm wrong.

34tbsqx.jpg

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Brahea Axel

I purchased this Sabal as 'Riverside' but I'm not sure if it's the true form, I can't tell the difference.

Can anyone explain the differences in Sabal 'Riverside' VS Sabal Palmetto ?

b3k74g.jpg

That looks like my riverside, Looks like you got the real thing.

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Brahea Axel

Take a look at my up close picture of the inflorescence on the Riverside. Also note that the Burmudana is the same age and currently has not flowered yet and the Riverside has been for years. I had also cut the longest inflorescence off to harvest the seed. It was over 6'8" feet long to give you a scale, I am 6'2" and it was taller than me and is taller than a standard door jam which is 6'8". Much larger than any Palmetto that i have seen and it is upright as well.

You have sabal minor not riverside. The long inflorescence is a dead giveaway.

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palm tree man

Phil sold it to me sometime around 2004 in a citrus pot with a sabal causiarum and a sabal bermudana and it has out grown the other two by far. Minor is native here and it is just much larger and has grown much faster than any minor and ours tend to have greener leaves as well. Maybe he sold me a hybrid that was thought to be Riverside. Hmmmmmmmm.......makes you think really.

post-9629-0-65929100-1392580559_thumb.jp

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post-9629-0-61186800-1392581084_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-58010200-1392581169_thumb.jp

Edited by palm tree man

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palm tree man

I wonder about the seed I bought as well then from a guy from Cali. The three seedlings are what sprouted from that batch of seed. The first pic is a Honda Odyssey behind the palm in question? It might be something totally different, if so I was misled; not purposely but mislead non the less.

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palm tree man

Axel you had me thinking so when I had a grower call me about some cycads I asked him about it. He told me my environment could case some differences and not to give up on it. It was, fast, large, and cold hardy so I never questioned it before. Honestly, I think it might have been a hybrid with minor like a Brazoria that got mis labeled at the nursery. I never gave it any though really. My logical mind is telling me that it is a hybrid. Thd seed grown ones are probably legit. I am glad that I knew before I sold or gave away any seed.

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Brad Mondel

I purchased this Sabal as 'Riverside' but I'm not sure if it's the true form, I can't tell the difference.

Can anyone explain the differences in Sabal 'Riverside' VS Sabal Palmetto ?

b3k74g.jpg

That looks like my riverside, Looks like you got the real thing.

Thanks for the confirmation, I'm certainly glad it's the real deal.

Here are some more photos, I noticed that the leaflets are a lot wider than S.Palmetto, and it has a blue tinge to the fronds. Also, the rachis doesn't curve all the way down as S.Palmetto does, leaving more leaflets vertical.

Blue tone: snmhbd.jpg

Rachis:

fucsiw.jpg

Edited by ArchAngeL01

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Brahea Axel

I purchased this Sabal as 'Riverside' but I'm not sure if it's the true form, I can't tell the difference.

Can anyone explain the differences in Sabal 'Riverside' VS Sabal Palmetto ?

b3k74g.jpg

That looks like my riverside, Looks like you got the real thing.

Thanks for the confirmation, I'm certainly glad it's the real deal.

Here are some more photos, I noticed that the leaflets are a lot wider than S.Palmetto, and it has a blue tinge to the fronds. Also, the rachis doesn't curve all the way down as S.Palmetto does, leaving more leaflets vertical.

Blue tone: snmhbd.jpg

Rachis:

fucsiw.jpg

Especially the last photo looks just like mine. I also have the problem you have in that it seems to have a tough time getting going, but I am crossing my fingers it's gonna take off this year. Mine has finally stepped out of its funk.

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palm tree man

It is definitely it but I am concerned about mine now. lol The midrib is normal for a plant that size as well. I have emailed a Dr. with the University of Texas to get an id on it and see if it is a Brazoria Palmetto. If I had not ever posted this I would never have thought about it. This is a lesson to me now that I have been growing palms for two decades. Buy from guys with a positive ID on the palm; especially palms like sabal. It is trunking and shows more of a midrib than my minors but could be a Lousiana. Well I know that one of the smaller ones is a Riverside at least and I have one at another location. Still a bit bummed though and embarassed as well. I am including a cool retro black and white pic that I found to show the variability in the Brazoria. Just play some cheesy educational video music while looking at the pic and it might amuse you. Didn't know I had one, so I can check one more palm off the list I guess. Trying to stay on the sunny side.

post-9629-0-12869600-1392609756_thumb.jp

Edited by palm tree man

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Brad Mondel

Palm tree man, whatever it is... it's still a very nice specimen. Can you take a photo of just the trunk? I'm curious to see what it looks like.

Axel, maybe both of ours will take off this year, It's already opening a spear so I'm optimistic! Very cold hardy, saw 14F, two ice storms, and snow. It did fine.

I planted it there to hide my neighbors :mrlooney:

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palm tree man

I will see what I can do when I get back home. Got a gig out of town this week. Axel what do you think about the small juvenile pics that I posted. They were grown from the same batch of seed and I have several more in the ground. Do they resemble yours at all or did I get sold something labeled "Riverside" wrongly by a distributor? I will repost them for convenience. Thanks again.

post-9629-0-28342800-1392612759_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-65937200-1392612776_thumb.jp

post-9629-0-51257800-1392612782_thumb.jp

Edited by palm tree man

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palm tree man

I heard back from the University of Texas and they agree that my palm shares many traits with Sable Minor but it is much too large to be a normal sabal minor and has an unusual flowering structure.

"Features of your plant that do not resemble S. × brazoriensis are (1) the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, similar to S. minor and unlike my own S. × brazoriensis; (2) the inflorescence is partly included within the leaves and partly rising above them (unlike S. × brazoriensis, where they are completely included).

Apart from these observations I have to plead ignorance. If I understand your reason to suspect S. × brazoriensis for your plant, it's because it only partially matches S. minor (and I agree with you on that), so you look for something that has been said to hybridize with S. minor (but here is where I am unable to satisfy your quest). Louisiana has a lot of large S. minor types that I know nothing about. Someone over there might have a match.

Good luck in finding a positive ID.

- &%^"

So here is where the two roads diverge in the wood.

I have a huge sabal minor with blueish leaves that has a current leaf spread of around 15ft or greater in full, hot, open sun in South Georgia "which is very hot" with leaves close to the size of my bermudana. They are on around a 48 inch Rachis and the leaves themselves are around 5 feet wide by 3.5 ft or over high. They are huge, so this brings the question to my mind what is this palm really? Keep in mind our sabal minors don't get much larger than serenoa repens here leaf wise. They never trunk either; we call them scrub palmettos and they are pretty common. If the leaves do get larger they are in full shade for reference.

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Brahea Axel

I heard back from the University of Texas and they agree that my palm shares many traits with Sable Minor but it is much too large to be a normal sabal minor and has an unusual flowering structure.

"Features of your plant that do not resemble S. × brazoriensis are (1) the leaves are only weakly costapalmate, similar to S. minor and unlike my own S. × brazoriensis; (2) the inflorescence is partly included within the leaves and partly rising above them (unlike S. × brazoriensis, where they are completely included).

Apart from these observations I have to plead ignorance. If I understand your reason to suspect S. × brazoriensis for your plant, it's because it only partially matches S. minor (and I agree with you on that), so you look for something that has been said to hybridize with S. minor (but here is where I am unable to satisfy your quest). Louisiana has a lot of large S. minor types that I know nothing about. Someone over there might have a match.

Good luck in finding a positive ID.

- &%^"

So here is where the two roads diverge in the wood.

I have a huge sabal minor with blueish leaves that has a current leaf spread of around 15ft or greater in full, hot, open sun in South Georgia "which is very hot" with leaves close to the size of my bermudana. They are on around a 48 inch Rachis and the leaves themselves are around 5 feet wide by 3.5 ft or over high. They are huge, so this brings the question to my mind what is this palm really? Keep in mind our sabal minors don't get much larger than serenoa repens here leaf wise. They never trunk either; we call them scrub palmettos and they are pretty common. If the leaves do get larger they are in full shade for reference.

You might have a sabal birmingham: here are the ones at Jaycee Park, Raleigh, North Carolina. I have one too but it's in a pot and recovering from shipping shock, so no pictures for now.

DSCN4012.JPG

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palm tree man

The picture does match mine pretty well; thanks Axel! I don't need to grow palms that tough here so I never bought or grew any seed of S Birmingham, but it has a reputation for being one of the toughest trunking palms around. Mine laughed at 2010 which was the very worst year that my palms and plants have ever experienced. I think it actually grew during all that cold foolishness. Hopefully that is what it is or something similar because I have a 5 gallon bucket full of seed that I have divided and I am soaking in a water/bleach solution. They will be going in what I call my "plant barn" or germination house and hopefully lots of little monsters sprout. Thank you I had not thought of Sabal B. If you are on and you get a chance look at the small sabal I posted and let me know what you think they are? They should be riverside but when you buy seed you never know beyond size, color, and shape as to what reality truly is.

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Brad Mondel

The fronds on your Sabal aren't as costapalmate at the Birmingham. I would identify it as a Sabal Minor Var. Louisiana.

http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/2005/03/14/peteywheatstraw/a4786e.jpg

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/290797/#b

Edited by ArchAngeL01

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palm tree man

I had thought about that as well, so I contacted a guy at LSU to see what they have on record. This palm really is a mystery though, I am looking back in my email archive to see where it came from. I talked to Phil and he told me that he didn't think it came from him. This palm was obtained over a decade ago mind you. He even looked back at old invoices. Sabal L. is similar to Sabal Bir and Sabal Braz. They all appear to have genetic similarities to Palmetto and Minor; maybe we are seeing hybrid vigor and diversity on different levels? If this is the case possibly it might solve some of the sabal species mysteries. They rarely hybridize but what happens when they do successfully? These palms might just be what happened. Mine is tough and I was not kidding it was cut to ground level by my father on several occasions when he was cutting grass around our small lake. It survived all that and anything else, who knows how many people could have backed over it trying to put a boat in to fish. Sabal L. has shown allot of diversity, I could tell that from web pics. This Sabal is also fast growing "for a cold tolerant palm, faster than any other sabal I have" and that is the main reason that I never questioned its identity until now. Thanks guys you have given me some solid food for thought "like a nice thick porterhouse or New York strip or for our vegetarian friends a nice thick piece of kale". Thanks again guys and let me know what you think. Archangel I love your name; back in the day he was my favorite Xman and I loved the Prophecy "that was an epic cult film" .

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palm tree man

It is already setting seed which I have found no record for anywhere on the net for any palm that we have mentioned and it had done so pretty early considering when it was planted. I am in sabal land here and they just don't flower and seed this quickly it is insane really. Whatever it is it is truly showing vigor whether hybrid or otherwise if you look at the pics from 09 till the pics in 13, you can attest to that fact. I just don't have any real solid info on the trunking or "tree form" minor like Louisiana is classified. Sabal L is much larger and more vigorous than sabal minor here and I know that with out a shadow of a doubt, but I read it takes 30 years to grow 3 feet of trunk. The speed of growth might be in question at this point. These palms are obviously different and unique perhaps they need to be looked at by taxonomist once more?

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Brahea Axel

It is already setting seed which I have found no record for anywhere on the net for any palm that we have mentioned and it had done so pretty early considering when it was planted. I am in sabal land here and they just don't flower and seed this quickly it is insane really. Whatever it is it is truly showing vigor whether hybrid or otherwise if you look at the pics from 09 till the pics in 13, you can attest to that fact. I just don't have any real solid info on the trunking or "tree form" minor like Louisiana is classified. Sabal L is much larger and more vigorous than sabal minor here and I know that with out a shadow of a doubt, but I read it takes 30 years to grow 3 feet of trunk. The speed of growth might be in question at this point. These palms are obviously different and unique perhaps they need to be looked at by taxonomist once more?

The sabal minor that used to make the rounds in California is a trunking sabal minor thought to be 'Louisiana'. If your seed or plant came from California, it might be a mix up, your palm being the California minor instead of Riverside.

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palm tree man

I am thinking that too Axel; I obtained it a relative long time ago so I am uncertain until I find the in invoice. I bought anything new and coldtolerant back then it could have come from anywhere on the 32 degree paralell. Louisiana trunks but looks smaller; this palm's spread is as wide as a mini van which makes me wonder. I believe that we are in the right direction though. They both are hybrids or believed to be as discribed. How fast does Sable L grow?

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palm tree man

I saw that pic too when we all started questioning it; I ran a Google sear h on anything associated with it. Sable L gets large and is thought to be a hybrid with minor, so I concur at this point. Fact is always more relavent than fiction. Thanks guys! Keep the input coming. You guys gave been a huge help! :)

Edited by palm tree man

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