Hardier queen provenances

[stevethegator]

So with the recent cold there has been a lot of talk about queens, and how the ones grown commercially are primarily from tropical-sourced seed and not very hardy.

My question is, after the freezes in the 80s killed a lot of them, and with the recent cold waves beginning to do the same, why hasn't a larger effort been made to grow queens from hardier provenances like South Brazil?

Possible answer: commercial growers benefit from the queens dying every 10-20 years, because then people have to keep buying more.

But due to the popularity of the queen it would seem someone could make a buck selling a more cold-tolerant variety

[PalmatierMeg]

That may be. However, some of it may be that they go for the cheapeast seeds they can find, then ship the results to assorted Big Box stores. Down here most non-franchised sellers won't waste space on them. BTW, queens are considered a Class 2 invasive in FL. They really don't do well in this part of the state unless watered and fertilized - a lot. Homeowners & businesses plant them then ignore them. They end up dying from nutritional deficiencies.

[_Keith]

That may be. However, some of it may be that they go for the cheapeast seeds they can find, then ship the results to assorted Big Box stores. Down here most non-franchised sellers won't waste space on them. BTW, queens are considered a Class 2 invasive in FL. They really don't do well in this part of the state unless watered and fertilized - a lot. Homeowners & businesses plant them then ignore them. They end up dying from nutritional deficiencies.

You're up pretty late there, Meg.

[Alberto]

Here are some "jerivá" palms from the vicinities and one growing in my garden

[Alberto]

Some more queen palms from Paraná´s tableland

[PalmatierMeg]

That may be. However, some of it may be that they go for the cheapeast seeds they can find, then ship the results to assorted Big Box stores. Down here most non-franchised sellers won't waste space on them. BTW, queens are considered a Class 2 invasive in FL. They really don't do well in this part of the state unless watered and fertilized - a lot. Homeowners & businesses plant them then ignore them. They end up dying from nutritional deficiencies.

You're up pretty late there, Meg.

Insomnia. Just me, the laptop and a cup of hot cocoa.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Some more queen palms from Paraná´s tableland

We need to get some seeds from you, Alberto.

I am trying a Santa Catarina high elevation queen just for fun to see if there is a difference. Queens are weeds here, but the Santa Catarina queen so far is about 2x the speed of the regular queen.

[Brad Mondel]

My Syagrus Roman. Died when it saw 14F but I enjoyed it for three years.

[stevethegator]

Some more queen palms from Paraná´s tableland

Wow those are gorgeous! They look far more robust overall than the ones you typically see in the US, more plumose as well.

How cold does it usually get on the tableland?

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Sad to say but I agree with you. Commerical growers are not worried about their longevity as long as they look good leaving their nursery. Queens are cheap so they are easier to just replace. Similar to washys they really are not a big money maker so not many nurseries want them taking up valuable space.

Edited February 17, 2014 by bbrantley

[PalmatierMeg]

These Syagrus just don't do well in S. FL. Our sandy/calcareous/rocky soil is alkaline and nutrient deficient. Queens are water/fertilizer gluttons. But in the 1980s into the 90s they were a landscaping "gotta have" in FL - till people figured out how invasive and messy they are. The "gotta have" successor to the queen was the foxtail - which has shown itself to be unsuited to S FL soil and climate, too. We watered, fertlized and mulched our queens into the lush behemoths they are today. That takes time, money and work that almost no one but a palm lover would invest. Would I choose to plant them again? Absolutely not. But Satakentias and Kentiopsis and Chambeyronias weren't available when we moved here.

[Zeeth]

These Syagrus just don't do well in S. FL. Our sandy/calcareous/rocky soil is alkaline and nutrient deficient. Queens are water/fertilizer gluttons. But in the 1980s into the 90s they were a landscaping "gotta have" in FL - till people figured out how invasive and messy they are. The "gotta have" successor to the queen was the foxtail - which has shown itself to be unsuited to S FL soil and climate, too. We watered, fertlized and mulched our queens into the lush behemoths they are today. That takes time, money and work that almost no one but a palm lover would invest. Would I choose to plant them again? Absolutely not. But Satakentias and Kentiopsis and Chambeyronias weren't available when we moved here.

There are some nice queens that are as lush as the ones Alberto posted in my neighborhood. You really notice them because of how nice they are when well grown. I wonder if it's that they're well cared for or that they're a different variety though.

[stevethegator]

These Syagrus just don't do well in S. FL. Our sandy/calcareous/rocky soil is alkaline and nutrient deficient. Queens are water/fertilizer gluttons. But in the 1980s into the 90s they were a landscaping "gotta have" in FL - till people figured out how invasive and messy they are. The "gotta have" successor to the queen was the foxtail - which has shown itself to be unsuited to S FL soil and climate, too. We watered, fertlized and mulched our queens into the lush behemoths they are today. That takes time, money and work that almost no one but a palm lover would invest. Would I choose to plant them again? Absolutely not. But Satakentias and Kentiopsis and Chambeyronias weren't available when we moved here.

I don't like queens in South Florida, and they don't like it there either. Besides the soil issues they are also horribly intolerant of hurricanes, for a palm that is. The hurricanes in '04 got rid of one of our queens, and some kind of disease took out the other one shortly after, which gave me a good excuse to plant native Roystonea in their place.

But, in central Florida, especially north of Orlando where the soil is really good even the regular queens look good, and they stand out there as one of the only "tropical" palms that can be grown. It's just a shame that areas further north like Gainesville, the Panhandle, and South Georgia have to deal with their queens getting frost damage in the 20s when clearly there are varieties which are much hardier.

Edited February 18, 2014 by stevethegator

[Axel Amsterdam]

Some more queen palms from Paraná´s tableland

We need to get some seeds from you, Alberto.

I am trying a Santa Catarina high elevation queen just for fun to see if there is a difference. Queens are weeds here, but the Santa Catarina queen so far is about 2x the speed of the regular queen.

Axel,

I had a look around by streetview in Santa Cruz and the surrounding area and i noticed most queens in your area seem to have brownish and rather short erect fronds compared to more inland area's.

Is it soil related or coastal exposure?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Some more queen palms from Paraná´s tableland

We need to get some seeds from you, Alberto.

I am trying a Santa Catarina high elevation queen just for fun to see if there is a difference. Queens are weeds here, but the Santa Catarina queen so far is about 2x the speed of the regular queen.

Axel,

I had a look around by streetview in Santa Cruz and the surrounding area and i noticed most queens in your area seem to have brownish and rather short erect fronds compared to more inland area's.

Is it soil related or coastal exposure?

It's mostly care-related, but also related to the strains of queens that did get planted. Palms as a whole all over Santa Cruz look like crap because no one fertilizes them. Look at our trachys, horrible disgusting things. No one here wants to grow palms because the public plantings look like crap. Take a Google Street view of Morrissey Blvd in SC, you'll see what I mean, palm trash alley central.

For a nice looking queen similar to the "abreojos queen" with thick leaflets, check out 111-149 Bradley, SC, CA: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.97731,-122.045637,3a,75y,338.73h,104.47t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sSVRaL-XNeS-UhmMuockrNw!2e0

For ugly queens that have short, upright brownish fronds, look at 41st avenue in Capitola, these are real ugly queens.

The queens in my neighborhood further inland look much nicer, but no Google street view. I will take photos for you later. These get taken care of well. Big, long, green wide leaves, super nice. Those make me want to grow a queen.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Thanks yes, they look good.

111 Bradley Dr, Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz County, California 95060, United States - Google Maps.pdf

Edited March 14, 2014 by Axel Amsterdam

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Thanks yes, they look good.

I did some google street view of my own, outside of those abreojos style queens that were planted years ago, I cannot find a single decent queen palm growing anywhere in town. They all look as you say, yellow-green with the upright shuttle cock style growth. The fact that those queens on Bradley street look so different suggests they are a different, older strain of queens.

Queens in general are just stinkin' ugly as street trees because they're extremely prone to nutritional deficiencies. The more I look at Google street view, the more I dislike these things.

Over the years I've looked at many queens, and I've spotted really nice looking queens once in a while, these look different and must be genetically distinct. I think it's worth trying out queens from different provenances to see how they perform. I am trying out the abreojos and the Santa Catarina queen.

[Axel Amsterdam]

I am sure you are right about different strains of queens existing. I am also very impressed by some pictures of abreojos or the fat ' mountain queen' with jubaea like trunks and broad dark green leaflets as portayed on this forum.

However, im not entirely convinced about queens from southern brasil being different/superior looking in general.

I took a tour by google streetview and found for example these queens growing in Carambei Parana. These look pretty poor to me even though they grow in the area where the most interesting queens in habitat seem to grow. I can't imagine these cultivated palms where being imported from more tropical regions, there are far too many examples of poor looking queens like these in the area. So yes there are superior queens, but it's not as clear as tropical vs santa catarina/parana queens in my opinion.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

not far from these queens there is a line of street plantings, very poor looking queens too. This is also Parana southern Brasil.

Im not stating they don't have beautiful queens as well, it's just that there are quite a number of ugly ones around, probably just like in California.

http://goo.gl/maps/zFMQY

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

not far from these queens there is a line of street plantings, very poor looking queens too. This is also Parana southern Brasil.

Im not stating they don't have beautiful queens as well, it's just that there are quite a number of ugly ones around, probably just like in California.

http://goo.gl/maps/zFMQY

Queens are definitely not my first choice of palm.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Rome in Italy has very few queens, but then i found these. There where around 6 growing in front of a nursery. These where so dark glossy green.

[_Keith]

Queens are hungry thirsty palms. With a little care, they can look awesome. But they are not very self sufficient, so any lack of care will be evident in short order.

[Alicehunter2000]

If I had a climate that could grow Royals I probably wouldn't grow queens either. But just think, if it were not for the lowely queen...we wouldn't have Mules.

[Brad Mondel]

My little Santa Catarina will be put to the test this fall.

[Alberto]

Axel, I

I am sure you are right about different strains of queens existing. I am also very impressed by some pictures of abreojos or the fat ' mountain queen' with jubaea like trunks and broad dark green leaflets as portayed on this forum.

However, im not entirely convinced about queens from southern brasil being different/superior looking in general.

I took a tour by google streetview and found for example these queens growing in Carambei Parana. These look pretty poor to me even though they grow in the area where the most interesting queens in habitat seem to grow. I can't imagine these cultivated palms where being imported from more tropical regions, there are far too many examples of poor looking queens like these in the area. So yes there are superior queens, but it's not as clear as tropical vs santa catarina/parana queens in my opinion.

Axel, I can show you even worse queen palms here in Carambeí. This you showed grow at the side of the cemetery. Generally transplanted queens are planted wrongly, with the trunks covered 0,5 m deep in the soil. This palms tends to grow slowly and they generally look ugly and take another 20-30 years to die. This is a " good" example of this queens. I´ll show others. Worse!

[Axel Amsterdam]

Hi Alberto,

Would you say that the uglier queens in your area are usually a result of bad transplanting?

Unfortunately i cant travel by streetview through the natural habitat in Parana to make comparisons.

I was only surprised there where so many ugly queens in gardens and as streetplantings in Carambei, but perhaps this is as you say bad transplanting. The ones in Rome I showed were transplanted as large palms too but they look great. Unfortunately other queens in Rome don't look so great (if any).

Edited March 21, 2014 by Axel Amsterdam

[Alberto]

It´s very easy to find terrible looking jerivá palms (queens), specially the palms that were transplanted burying +- 2 feet of the trunks and or planting in very compacted sub soil mixed with concrete and stones like this ones . I remember the day they were planted and I knew how they would look after a few years!

Some horrible jerivás growing in a nighborhhod in Carambeí (photographed at noon while it was cloudy with drizzle, adding ugliness to the poor things. I don´t know why they don´t cut this things??!! Some other queens grow to slowly because they grow in very poor soil and are overpruned year after year so they cannot grow normally and look somewhat strange and stunted.

[Alberto]

This said, not all "jerivás" look the same. There are queens and queens. The quuen palm is very variable. From one county to another, from one state to another. There are with very fat and slender trunks. Very tall and shorter fronds, very plumose and less plumose, Very thin and wide leaflets etc etc. I can see differences from my native queens and from Castro and Ponta Grossa(20 km from here) and from Tibagi (80 km from here)

Here you can see two different (overpuned) palms planted at my uncles house.(the left one has clearly wider leaflets)

[Alberto]

I have a tropical queen growing at my place. I brought the seed from Campinas- São Paulo state. I remember the very long infrutescence on the mother palm, so different that at the time I thought it was another species. The fronds are long and held upright

[Alberto]

Compare with one of the wild ones that were growing here. This is very plumose and the fronds are weeping and the older ones are parallel with the trunk

[stevethegator]

I have a tropical queen growing at my place. I brought the seed from Campinas- São Paulo state. I remember the very long infrutescence on the mother palm, so different that at the time I thought it was another species. The fronds are long and held upright

This looks exactly like what they sell at the box stores here in the US

[Alberto]

This is another jerivá that a cousin gave me and that was growing wild at his property in Santa Cruz (+- 20 km from here)

[Alberto]

This young queens were planted at my childrens school and it´s an "announced disaster". I know how terrible they will look in future :-(

Third pic shows a "volunteer" queen that was growing there before the school was build. The new ones will never look like this!

[Alberto]

Some cultivated ,all different jerivás, that I photographed in my town this evening, to post here

[Alberto]

I was plannig to make a post about the jerivá palm and I could not resist to post them here now...

[Alberto]

Let me try to post this street vieuw:

https://www.google.nl/maps/@-24.944885,-50.122994,3a,75y,173.03h,87.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_UZi0EZ9U2bH-wU05xuGkQ!2e0

[enigma99]

Queens are hungry thirsty palms. With a little care, they can look awesome. But they are not very self sufficient, so any lack of care will be evident in short order.

Keith, I was going to say the same thing. With proper care they can be quite a spectacular palm.

What gets me the most is commercial plantings in my area where queens are half dead. They think they can get by without water and fertilizer. The truth is that they are more like a lawn.. Needing lots of water and fertilizer throughout the growing season. It makes me so upset, I feel like emailing property owners, or giving them some fertilizer in the middle of the night. Here is a property about two blocks from my house showing typical neglect.

Edited March 22, 2014 by enigma99

[enigma99]

This one makes me the most upset. There are some Queens in the back that are planted in a lawn, and are very green and full of health. In the foreground, the palms are sick lacking basic necessities to survive. That should be criminal to do that to your palms And yet they don't make a correlation of why the different groups are doing well and not.

Edited March 22, 2014 by enigma99

[Alberto]

A good thing about queens here, where it is native,is that they are care free. If you plant them at correct depht in regular deep soil (not compacted subsoil with concrete) most of them will have an acceptable look . No needs of fertilization or watering, Something only few persons do here....like in California I can see

[Axel Amsterdam]

Thanks Alberto for the pics, some ultra beautiful and some ugly.

Somehow i'm still having trouble accepting that the difference between a beautiful and an ugly queen in the same street is planting dept. It's something i never read before about queens, but i believe your observations and after all you live in ' Queens-land' . I take it people plant queens too deep in Parana because of the wind and the risk of falling over (without staking them)?

For how long have these queens been planted near the school? Have they been struggling for years looking like that or are they recent plantings?

Edited March 22, 2014 by Axel Amsterdam