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VLyn

I thought MULES were hardy?

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VLyn

Hi I have had some queen palm trees that may have been affected by this cold winter season (2014).

I have have spent a few hrs looking on here for the best tree to replace these. Ok so I have made my decision after reading many post of how hardy the "mule palm" is thought to be. So i call my nursery, and the owner told me well I only have one and its out frt. of my window - looking at it right now... and it did not fair any better than the queens we have, its looks the same.

So she than states let me send you a pic of it. I am thinking well ok maybe it was a small tree and sitting in a pot to my surprise this is what she sent me.

Now I know enough from reading today mules are a hybrid between a queen and a pindo palm and it could be hybrid more to the queen side and this could happen. So if this is the case is there a certain type I should be looking for? I really do not want to replace these in any near future. So what are ur thoughts on why this happened to this healthy Mule Palm in zone 8a? Thanks~

post-9683-0-99624300-1392331049_thumb.jp

post-9683-0-86461800-1392331050_thumb.jp

Edited by VLyn

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DoomsDave

Welcome VLyn!

We'll do all we can to help.

Be warned that you had a NASTY winter this year, which isn't the usual. Pure Buteas should generally take your cold, but this might be one of those exceptional years.

Perhaps look for a mule that's more like a butea?

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VLyn

Welcome VLyn!

We'll do all we can to help.

Be warned that you had a NASTY winter this year, which isn't the usual. Pure Buteas should generally take your cold, but this might be one of those exceptional years.

Perhaps look for a mule that's more like a butea?

I looked at them and they look allot like a pindo. I have been here since 2008 and this will be the second time we lost the fronds on the queens. Not sure what to do... I am tempted to put in scrub oaks. I wonder if they have an invasive root system as my septic is just steps away from where they will be. I could add white lights to them to make them festive :) Yes our winter was really bad this year. I need to think longevity. Any ideals let me know. Thanks.

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-13634900-1392338179_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-42267700-1392338319_thumb.jpg

Lyn, here are 2 of my mules recently...im right down the beach from you. The smaller one has some transplant shock...but no recent damage

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stevethegator

Welcome VLyn!

We'll do all we can to help.

Be warned that you had a NASTY winter this year, which isn't the usual. Pure Buteas should generally take your cold, but this might be one of those exceptional years.

Perhaps look for a mule that's more like a butea?

I looked at them and they look allot like a pindo. I have been here since 2008 and this will be the second time we lost the fronds on the queens. Not sure what to do... I am tempted to put in scrub oaks. I wonder if they have an invasive root system as my septic is just steps away from where they will be. I could add white lights to them to make them festive :) Yes our winter was really bad this year. I need to think longevity. Any ideals let me know. Thanks.

If you want a pinnate palm that will never be damaged by cold in your climate, go with pure Butia. They grow all over the southeast and have survived ice storms, snow storms, hurricanes, deep freezes, droughts, you name it. There are palms with 30+ feet of wood out in the country near Gainesville that have seen at least 10 degrees F. There are mature specimens in Tallahassee that have survived single digits. They are also rather slow growing and the roots won't damage your septic system. They also produce edible fruits.

As a testament to Butia's hardiness, we got down to 5 degrees F here in Atlanta last month. There are Butias planted in various places around town and while some may die from the cold, I am sure some will survive. If it gets down to 5F in Panama City you'll have bigger problems to worry about than your palms! Lol

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VLyn

attachicon.gif20140125_111056.jpgattachicon.gif20140125_111636.jpg

Lyn, here are 2 of my mules recently...im right down the beach from you. The smaller one has some transplant shock...but no recent damage

They look amazing - now i am so confused. Maybe I should try them. Thank you neighbor.

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VLyn

Welcome VLyn!

We'll do all we can to help.

Be warned that you had a NASTY winter this year, which isn't the usual. Pure Buteas should generally take your cold, but this might be one of those exceptional years.

Perhaps look for a mule that's more like a butea?

I looked at them and they look allot like a pindo. I have been here since 2008 and this will be the second time we lost the fronds on the queens. Not sure what to do... I am tempted to put in scrub oaks. I wonder if they have an invasive root system as my septic is just steps away from where they will be. I could add white lights to them to make them festive :) Yes our winter was really bad this year. I need to think longevity. Any ideals let me know. Thanks.

If you want a pinnate palm that will never be damaged by cold in your climate, go with pure Butia. They grow all over the southeast and have survived ice storms, snow storms, hurricanes, deep freezes, droughts, you name it. There are palms with 30+ feet of wood out in the country near Gainesville that have seen at least 10 degrees F. There are mature specimens in Tallahassee that have survived single digits. They are also rather slow growing and the roots won't damage your septic system. They also produce edible fruits.

As a testament to Butia's hardiness, we got down to 5 degrees F here in Atlanta last month. There are Butias planted in various places around town and while some may die from the cold, I am sure some will survive. If it gets down to 5F in Panama City you'll have bigger problems to worry about than your palms! Lol

If I could find at least 4 nice ones.. i would consider them for sure - putting them on my list. Thanks for the info on temps.

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stevethegator

Also, Phoenix (date palms) may work for you too. They are hardier than queens for sure. Phoenix sylvestris is well adapted for Florida, and is the best looking IMO. Phoenix canariensis also grows with frequency in your neck of the woods and is hardier. If you don't mind a clumping palm, Phoenix reclinata is also hardy/adaptable to north Florida and has the added advantage of being able to come back from the roots if damaged by cold.

Mostly, as the weather warms up look around town to see what is damaged and what has survived. Talk to growers in your area. And don't be afraid to replant! I have no doubt that you'll be able to do better than scrub oaks! Haha

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palm tree man

The hardiness of the mule palm can vary greatly. I had three small mules that I planted several years ago and one was burned by frost and the other two were untouched. A queen beside them was also fine. The same could be seen in two large trunking mules that I had in the front yard. One was undamaged the other one showed some burning on the leaf tips. This was unusually cold weather much like this year that they experienced. They seem to vary in hardiness depending on two main factors one of course being how much the mule resembled a queen palm and the other being how hardy both parents were. This can also be deceiving however, because there is a great deal of genetic diversity in a butia as well. There are many different described species of butia and more popping up all the time. I myself have three different forms of capitata as well as most of their close cousins like yatay. If you take a fairly loose leaved butia and mix it with a queen that has shown good cold tolerance say a "silver queen" which is considered by some to be a different species, sub-species, or just a form of syagrus romanzoffiana. You will get a plant that looks pretty tropical but will also show considerable cold tolerance. Because of the difficulty in producing the mule, every seedling for the most part is grown and resold. In nature usually only the strongest will germinate and then they will be further tested until only the very best remain. As a grower my field grown specimens are always tougher; you lose some but the remaining plants are the best. My honest opinion is that in the south you should protect all but the most cold tolerant like sabal palmetto and butia capitata from there first winter mostly below the 30 degree mark when it is at its worst or when we have a winter event like this year. This being said they usually bounce back fairly quickly when damaged. They are really awesome palms though and I enjoy each of mine they all seem to have a slightly different look and personality.

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Alicehunter2000

Just sent you a PM.....This summer come by and see what survived the Polar Vortex and Great Ice Storm of 2014.

Pure Butia is very slow, and they are everywhere up here. No....mules are definitely the way to go. P. sylvestris is nice as well. Try to find the robusta form....as a matter of fact, I got a double that I could trade. Grown from seed from my sylvestris at my old house in Panama City. I went by there last weekend and it had very little damage.

L. decora (ribbon palm)is definitely a winner as well. They were virtually untouched this winter. This will be the next big landscaping palm for this area...I got tons of seedlings from some old trees located in Lynn Haven. When I pot them up individually, I will give you some. Gonna get you hooked up on your new addiction....lol.

Oh and Lyn....you are zone 9a....not 8a...on Panama City Beach.

Palm Tree Man.....could you please, please break up you posts into smaller paragraphs....really hard to read all the info with my bad eyes. Thanks.

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ErikSJI

Lyn, I would be interested in seeing a photo of that Mule before there was damage. Any chance the nursery owner has one? Is that Mule in a pot in the ground?

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palm tree man

Sorry David, I was on the desktop and I have a large monitor. My eyes are not as great as they once were. Lol Yes L. Decora will definitely be big in Northern Florida. All mine look fine this winter.

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The7thLegend

I second Mules & Sylvestris. 2 of my favorite attractive and durable palms.

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_Keith

On phone so limited response. This year my small queens are all toast. My sylvestris will live but 90% of fronds are burned. My Mules, all 5 of them, look great. My Butia is fine, but get big ones. They are slow.

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palm tree man

The Robusta variety of Sylvestris are very nice and have shown no real damage in my area. They also seem to be one of the best, hardiest choices of large Phoenix for the South.

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palm tree man

I have two syagrus that lost their labels in transit to the greenhouse and I was wondering if someone could help me with the ID. I have pictures posted and started a thread on it. They are both varieties that were grown from seed and that I have limited to no experience growing. Thank you.

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Sandy Loam

Hi VLynn.

I saw the photos you posted and, in my opinion only, that mule has way more queen palm in it than butia capitata (pindo palm). This may be the reason for the cold damage.

For your region, I would recommend the following if you don't want to see toasted-looking fronds anymore:

- Sabal Palmetto -- but they grow slowly and aren't very pretty. It's the kind of palm that you see everywhere around Panama City

- Butia Capitata (pindo palm) - but it also grows very slowly and I am not a fan of their look

- mule palm with more butia than queen, as DoomsDave suggested; this is hard to see unless you are buying at least a 7 or perhaps 15-gallon size

- washingtonia filibusta (hybrid of washingtonia robusta and washingtonia filifera) - fortunately, the soil is so sandy in Panama City that this will probably survive there; sometimes they don't survive in Florida when there is too much rain and they get flooded, but your drainage will be excellent in your area. I don't recommend pure washingtonia filifera (too slow and is for the desert), but washingtonia robusta is quite fast, easy to find, cheap and most years was experience any frond burn in Panama City. This year was unusual

- phoenix canariensis -- perfect, but a bit slow growing; a hybrid variety would be faster

- phoenix sylvestris -- perfect but a tad slow-growing; a hybrid variety would be faster

- phoenix reclinata -- I don't recommend pure reclinata for your region, but the pure ones are hard to find pure anyway; they are often sold as pure reclinata, but are really hybrids, which is what you want. Warning: multiple trunks and take too many years to become big

- livistona decora, aka. livistona decipiens -- very fast growing and will probably do fine in your region; 20 feet in 3 years, allegedly

- livistona nitida - bulletproof, but might not grow fast enough for you

Good luck.

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stevethegator

Hi VLynn.

I saw the photos you posted and, in my opinion only, that mule has way more queen palm in it than butia capitata (pindo palm). This may be the reason for the cold damage.

For your region, I would recommend the following if you don't want to see toasted-looking fronds anymore:

- Sabal Palmetto -- but they grow slowly and aren't very pretty. It's the kind of palm that you see everywhere around Panama City

- Butia Capitata (pindo palm) - but it also grows very slowly and I am not a fan of their look

- mule palm with more butia than queen, as DoomsDave suggested; this is hard to see unless you are buying at least a 7 or perhaps 15-gallon size

- washingtonia filibusta (hybrid of washingtonia robusta and washingtonia filifera) - fortunately, the soil is so sandy in Panama City that this will probably survive there; sometimes they don't survive in Florida when there is too much rain and they get flooded, but your drainage will be excellent in your area. I don't recommend pure washingtonia filifera (too slow and is for the desert), but washingtonia robusta is quite fast, easy to find, cheap and most years was experience any frond burn in Panama City. This year was unusual

- phoenix canariensis -- perfect, but a bit slow growing; a hybrid variety would be faster

- phoenix sylvestris -- perfect but a tad slow-growing; a hybrid variety would be faster

- phoenix reclinata -- I don't recommend pure reclinata for your region, but the pure ones are hard to find pure anyway; they are often sold as pure reclinata, but are really hybrids, which is what you want. Warning: multiple trunks and take too many years to become big

- livistona decora, aka. livistona decipiens -- very fast growing and will probably do fine in your region; 20 feet in 3 years, allegedly

- livistona nitida - bulletproof, but might not grow fast enough for you

Good luck.

Good advice!

As far as livistona decora, 20 feet in three years?? That sounds awesome!

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_Keith

L decora 20 feet in 3 years, no way. Not even close. Both of mine are well fertilized, abundant water, beautiful and healthy as the proverbial OX, but growing at a little over half that rate. There is some variation in these with cold hardiness as well. One of mine has no cold damage whatsoever, and the other about 25% foliage burn. Both are in identical environmental conditions.

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palm tree man

Mine have done very well but they have copious amounts of water and are fertilized regularly, but I don't think that I can say that they grow that quickly. Twenty feet in three years is pretty rapid. I am also not saying that they cannot given optimal conditions but that would be very fast for any palm.

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WestCoastGal

Lyn, I would be interested in seeing a photo of that Mule before there was damage. Any chance the nursery owner has one? Is that Mule in a pot in the ground?

I too was wondering if that was a partially buried pot we see or some kind of edging material instead. I also was thinking it looked like the mule had a small canopy, with few fronds. We try to keep as many fronds on our mules as possible for as long as possible and I think it does help contribute to a fuller and healthier canopy in the long run. Another thought was who knows how well it had been fertilized and watered before the bad weather started.

I'm in California with 3 mules and we reached 23 here in December. All of ours are doing well. Our cold was different than yours VLynn however so I think the experiences of those around you would be a better predictor.

David (AliceHunter), was your small mule the one in the front yard that was in a more unprotected setting? I saw photos of VLynn's yard before the freeze and her queens were quite tall and without any other protection from structures around them. VLynn were the two that took the brunt of the freeze (totally defoliated and stained) the queens furthest from the house out of curiosity?

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_Keith

Lyn, I would be interested in seeing a photo of that Mule before there was damage. Any chance the nursery owner has one? Is that Mule in a pot in the ground?

I too was wondering if that was a partially buried pot we see or some kind of edging material instead. I also was thinking it looked like the mule had a small canopy, with few fronds. We try to keep as many fronds on our mules as possible for as long as possible and I think it does help contribute to a fuller and healthier canopy in the long run. Another thought was who knows how well it had been fertilized and watered before the bad weather started.

I'm in California with 3 mules and we reached 23 here in December. All of ours are doing well. Our cold was different than yours VLynn however so I think the experiences of those around you would be a better predictor.

David (AliceHunter), was your small mule the one in the front yard that was in a more unprotected setting? I saw photos of VLynn's yard before the freeze and her queens were quite tall and without any other protection from structures around them. VLynn were the two that took the brunt of the freeze (totally defoliated and stained) the queens furthest from the house out of curiosity?

Don't forget the health factor as well. If a palm is not healthy, it will be damaged more, plain and simple. The palm pictured was either over pruned, or unhealthy. Should have had a much fuller crown, imho. In the case of David's Mule, which showed some burn, it is not yet established, that too is a factor.

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Phoenikakias

L decora 20 feet in 3 years, no way. Not even close. Both of mine are well fertilized, abundant water, beautiful and healthy as the proverbial OX, but growing at a little over half that rate. There is some variation in these with cold hardiness as well. One of mine has no cold damage whatsoever, and the other about 25% foliage burn. Both are in identical environmental conditions.

There are ('decora'?) specimens, which grow exceptionally fast. Here's my experience from the past. Once I had over fertilized a decora of mine with a not slow releazing at a ratio of 3-1-3 + micros, and the palm showed minor burn symptoms (fortunately the nitrogen was not over 12%) but it grew within a year 2 meters of trunk (of course I will not dare do it again, it's like playing with fire)!

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-53846200-1392383734_thumb.jpg

My wife asked me if we were going to plant queens again.....after looking at mule # 3. ....don't want to take up the limited space with queens. Hybrids will go in the two empty spaces.

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-03198200-1392384173_thumb.jpg

Just realized Showed the same mule as before....here is the one that was stressed from transplanting 10 months before. There was no additional damage from cold.

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Eric in Orlando

Mule Palms are variable because of their hybrid parentage.

There are quite a few older Mule Palms around Orlando in the older neighborhoods. Back in Dec. 1989 we had the record freeze, 2 nights at 19-20F. A majority of the Mule Palms had little or very minor burn. But there were some that were severely burnt/defoliated. I even remember a few that died.

We used to have a tall Mule Palm here at Leu Gardens that would severely burn in the mid to upper 30s. It had dark green leaves and the trunk was a less robust one. It survived freezes fine but would defoliate almost every winter even without a freeze. I suspect some other Syagrus was mixed into it.

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NorthFlpalmguy

I would go with the mules or straight butias. The queens can just not handle the rare hard freeze here. The same ones that burn the washingtonias, canarys, sylvestris, etc. I lost 500+ reclinatas at 3-15gal size years ago to a hard freeze so I would not suggest them.

I do not think you will ever lose a butia over seedling-size here to a hard freeze. They are the bullet proof N Fl non-native palm.

Edited by bbrantley

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sonoranfans

Hi VLynn.

I saw the photos you posted and, in my opinion only, that mule has way more queen palm in it than butia capitata (pindo palm). This may be the reason for the cold damage.

For your region, I would recommend the following if you don't want to see toasted-looking fronds anymore:

- Sabal Palmetto -- but they grow slowly and aren't very pretty. It's the kind of palm that you see everywhere around Panama City

- Butia Capitata (pindo palm) - but it also grows very slowly and I am not a fan of their look

- mule palm with more butia than queen, as DoomsDave suggested; this is hard to see unless you are buying at least a 7 or perhaps 15-gallon size

- washingtonia filibusta (hybrid of washingtonia robusta and washingtonia filifera) - fortunately, the soil is so sandy in Panama City that this will probably survive there; sometimes they don't survive in Florida when there is too much rain and they get flooded, but your drainage will be excellent in your area. I don't recommend pure washingtonia filifera (too slow and is for the desert), but washingtonia robusta is quite fast, easy to find, cheap and most years was experience any frond burn in Panama City. This year was unusual

- phoenix canariensis -- perfect, but a bit slow growing; a hybrid variety would be faster

- phoenix sylvestris -- perfect but a tad slow-growing; a hybrid variety would be faster

- phoenix reclinata -- I don't recommend pure reclinata for your region, but the pure ones are hard to find pure anyway; they are often sold as pure reclinata, but are really hybrids, which is what you want. Warning: multiple trunks and take too many years to become big

- livistona decora, aka. livistona decipiens -- very fast growing and will probably do fine in your region; 20 feet in 3 years, allegedly

- livistona nitida - bulletproof, but might not grow fast enough for you

Good luck.

Good advice!

As far as livistona decora, 20 feet in three years?? That sounds awesome!

LOL, NO! Decoras are fast though. My two 7 gallon, 3' overall plantings are now around 13-14' after 3 years in the ground. Still the fastest 9a hardy fan palm I have. In two more years they will likely be 20' overall and possibly more as they seem to be picking up speed. And mine are very well fertilized, florikan palm special, fish fert, humic acid.

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palm tree man

I agree my L decora are faster than W robusta over all and though I like robusta despite it being so common. They are just prettier palms to me and decora seems to have more hardy leaves.

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_Keith

I am starting to see minor damage on the newly emerged fronds of the Mules, with the exception of the 'yatay' mule. That one looks like it enjoyed the cold.

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palm tree man

Keith where did you find a Yatay mule? Yatay is my favorite butia and all my seed grown yatay are tough as nails.

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_Keith

Keith where did you find a Yatay mule? Yatay is my favorite butia and all my seed grown yatay are tough as nails.

I got lucky a few years back. A collector in Houston that I bought my first Mule from was transferred to a less palm friendly place. I got 4 Mules from him, the yatay being one. Also got my Jubutia from him at that time as well. It was all pure luck.

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palm tree man

You did get pretty fortunate. My mules have came from several different sources; I even got a jbutygarus from Tim which is a pretty cool cross. Has the Yatay cross grown differently than the standard mule?

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_Keith

You did get pretty fortunate. My mules have came from several different sources; I even got a jbutygarus from Tim which is a pretty cool cross. Has the Yatay cross grown differently than the standard mule?

Yes, very upright. Check out this thread. http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/36752-yatay-mule/

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palm tree man

Cool, thank you Keith. Hope you have a great weekend man.

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mnorell

VLyn--

I just wanted to add a second to what Keith has said above: Phoenix sylvestris will survive, but will lose all its foliage, in anything below about 20F for any length of time, whereas mules will look like they're enjoying summer despite being coated with ice, snow, and generally insulted with temps in the upper teens and twenties. This winter was quite brutal in the Gulf South particularly to the west of you, and though I haven't been up at my place in Natchez, Mississippi, just north of Baton Rouge (and which saw three continuous days below freezing, low 18F, snow, and now an ice-storm that coated everything pretty heavily), I have plenty of reports and photos that demonstrate the above. My P. sylvestris 'robusta' are now browned out (a couple of smaller regular P. sylvestris supposedly a little better), while the mules, Butias and Sabals look great.

I have probably six to ten mules planted there, almost all purchased from ErikSJI (see his note above), and he can fill you in on their exact parentage. They are exceedingly beautiful and grow faster than any palm I can grow in that climate, including Livistona decora (though that one is fast). Queen palms are not appropriate as a permanent landscape palm in any of the Gulf states, or areas roughly above Orlando, but they are sold by the gazillions, are cheap, pretty fast, and may last a few winters in the warmest coastal areas. Mules are a godsend to the area but are very difficult to produce and thus are more expensive. But if you want a tropical-looking feather-leaf palm, it's what you want to go with. They are anecdotally capable of surviving (with heavy damage) 10F or so, which is better than a Washingtonia robusta can muster.

In your area temps in the upper single digits or lower teens don't occur too often (e.g., 1899, 1962, 1985) but it's good to plant the hardiest material you can get your hands on so you don't have total devastation when one of the inevitable arctic nightmares hits the upper Gulf Coast. And if you use plenty of natives, such as Sabal and needle palms (Rhapidophyllum) as the foundations in your landscape, you will never be disappointed at their year-round beauty and long-term stability.

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ErikSJI

To give you an example of the difference. Photo of Keith,s Yaytay Mule next to a Odorata Mule.

post-1930-0-19925700-1392493678_thumb.jp

post-1930-0-03711200-1392493750_thumb.jp

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Collectorpalms

Keeping on Topic. The mules at the San Antonio Botanical garden both defoliated in 2010 and 2011, and were removed. The lows were 17-19. I think that mule probably saw close to 17f and a longer more exposed duration. Not 19-20 which is why most posting on here are green. Two degree difference.

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palm tree man

Should the Yatay mule typically be slightly larger and taller as well? I know with a hybrid it will vary but I was just wondering if they took on allot of Yatay's good characteristics.

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_Keith

Should the Yatay mule typically be slightly larger and taller as well? I know with a hybrid it will vary but I was just wondering if they took on allot of Yatay's good characteristics.

That certainly fits with mine.

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