Jump to content
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT LOGGING IN ×
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Could Dypsis decipiens be the only Crownshafted Palm for Zone 9a


Alicehunter2000

Recommended Posts

Could Dypsis decipiens be the only reliable crownshafted palm for zone 9a. This is the conclusion that I am starting to draw as my quest for a hardy crownshafted palm continues. Another contender would be the trunking form of C. radicalis, but this palm is very dainty and doesn't compare to D. decipiens IMO.

In California and other Meditteranian climates I guess there might be something else that can take temps into the low 20's, but in more sub-tropical climates I think D. decipiens might be all we got. Any thoughts concerning hardy crownshafts that can take 20 degrees F. (-6.67 C.) as an ultimate brief low?

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Chamaedorea radicalis tree form are growing for me in zone 8b... though they are growing against a building. They have a crownshaft depending upon what your definition of a crownshaft is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might be right.

I'm in zone 9b as our average winter lowest temp is above 25f

While I have yet to see serious damage to my dypsis decipiens ,

It hasn't seen temps that could be expected in a zone 9a garden...

Ie 20f-25f

Jeff

Modesto, CA USDA 9b

July/August average 95f/63f

Dec/Jan average 55f/39f

Average lowest winter temp 27f

Record low temp 18f

Record high temp 113f

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a Carpentaria with about 30 feet of trunk in a protected spot by USF Tampa. That's probably on the border of 9a and 9b.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D. decipiens gets through my 9b winters untouched, while D. onilahensis, decaryi, saintelucei, ambositrae, and plumosa. all kicked the bucket. D. heteromorpha is another hopefull that has survived at my place unscathed during winters that killed the above (I hope I haven't jinxed this plant)

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhopalostylis sapida and archontophoenix cunninghamianna are also good candidates, aren't they?

Salut ;)

07690.gif

elevation 328 feet

distance from mediteranean sea 1,1 mile

lowest t° 2009/2010 : 27F

lowest t° 2008/2009 : 33F

lowest t° 2007/2008 : 32F

lowest t° 2006/2007 : 35F

lowest t° 2005/2006 : 27F

lowest t° 2004/2005 : 25F

Historical lowest t° 1985 : 18F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Gilles,

The problem is that they burn to a crisp every year and look horrible for a while until they recover, just in time to get fried again.

Matt

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will make a concerted effort to buy and place a bunch of double d's in my yard....give them a proper testing for this zone.

The cutoff for a lot of crownshafts seems to be 9b minimums (25 degrees F. or -3.9 C.). Most of the species you all mentioned would be more for 9b minimums or are sensitive to the heat/humidity of our summers.

Has anyone attempted hybridizing a D. decipiens with something faster growing and more common?....a triangle would be interesting. Decipiens x Decary

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have not seen too many Kings and Rhopalostylis get to 9b's low of 25F and come through without severe frost/freeze damage without 'cheating' (putting them in a protected microclimate... which is hardly 'surviving zone 9b' then in my opinion) ... I find it extremely unlikely either would even survive 20F (the low of 9a), and if they did somehow, I seriously doubt they would be too healthy for some time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Geoff. I'm barely in 9b and Kings and Rhopalostylis won't make it here without help. I have lost one decipiensin the open here but a larger one has survived two winters in the open and 3 with some cover are ok after three winters.

Next week will be a real test with multiple sub-freezing nights.

C. radicalis does seem pretty tough.

For me, finding the right microclimate is half the fun of growing palm trees here.

David, I have often wondered about a decipiens x baronii cross but I'll probably never have the chance to try it here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

During 2007 all the Archontophoenix cunninghamiana here in Temecula had their foliage burned completely black, but most were recovered by the end of summer. Temps around town varied from 17 to 22 F. Some of these palms were near homes so they probably had some radiant heat

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David's profile indicate us that his lowest temperature was 22F(very rarely). Does it means once time a year, every 10 years or something else? Is this cold brief or not?

Can't you find a microclimate in your garden: near a wall, under canopy, near swimmingpool?

Do you grow with success lemon tree?

Salut. ;)

07690.gif

elevation 328 feet

distance from mediteranean sea 1,1 mile

lowest t° 2009/2010 : 27F

lowest t° 2008/2009 : 33F

lowest t° 2007/2008 : 32F

lowest t° 2006/2007 : 35F

lowest t° 2005/2006 : 27F

lowest t° 2004/2005 : 25F

Historical lowest t° 1985 : 18F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Gilles, we grow all manner of citrus trees here. Most people have Meyer lemon which is a more hardy variety, also we grow mandarine/satsuma, oranges, some varieties of lime, grapefruit etc.

Most years we don't go below 25 here on the coast. Last year it did not go below 32 degrees (0 C.) I would say every 5 years we might go down to the low 20's briefly for a few hours at night, then usually a rapid warmup above freezing during the day. Even more rare, are the 25-50 year events where temps may even touch into the teens here along the coast. Very rare is a duration freeze that lasts all night and day..........can't remember that happening.

On average we touch freezing temps maybe 5-15 times a year.......then only briefly. Just enough to kill off the really cool stuff I would like to grow...lol.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A small varigated lemon recently planted.post-97-0-23459500-1385826572_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-48241600-1385826617_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David, your climate is not so easy.

You can plant more Dypsis decipiens, a lot if you them!

You can or must try Ropalostylis sapida in a protected spot, with winter passive protection during his juvenile stage,

and continue to grow citrus and not crownshafted palm ! (nice little variegated lemon tree, did you it has pink flesh?)

Salut ;)

07690.gif

elevation 328 feet

distance from mediteranean sea 1,1 mile

lowest t° 2009/2010 : 27F

lowest t° 2008/2009 : 33F

lowest t° 2007/2008 : 32F

lowest t° 2006/2007 : 35F

lowest t° 2005/2006 : 27F

lowest t° 2004/2005 : 25F

Historical lowest t° 1985 : 18F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Parameters for cold-hardiness are so variable and complicated...! One aspect that usually gets overlooked is how the palm fares during growing season (usually temperate zones have more or less two distinctive year periods regarding cultivation of sub-tropical plants, the warm-growing and cold-dormant one); if the palm passes through a second stress during the growing season, then in the coming cold season it will prove from simply to substantially less cold hardy. I have learned my lesson the hard way with high altitude - andean palms. Another aspect is also type of cold, as well as duration and sevirity. An advection frost is considerably more disastrous even when freezing temps remain in the upper 20's. This way I lost a Rhopalostylis sapida, which was outplanted and about to start forming a trunk. Two days of snow fall and temps fluctuating from +1 C to -2 C have proved enough to eliminate previous twen years of successful growing in pot and in the ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David - I might agree with you that Dypsis decipiens is the most cold hardy crown-shafted palm. I have killed several but that was not due to the cold. They are so slow and my remaining ones are so small that I don't know what would happen with a 20' tall one during a rare cold winter in southeast Louisiana. For an indication of my climate, I've had a key lime tree for 20 years. It's been defoliated several times when the temperature has gone below 25F, but the tree (wood) has never been damaged

I have trunking C radicalis on the north side of my house for at least ten years. I don't think it's ever been affected by the cold, but I don't really consider it to be a crown-shafted palm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most zone 9a locations experience temperatures in high teens from time to time.

I live in a zone 10a with a 30 year average winter low of about 31.5 degrees. During the last 6 winters that I've lived here I had two with winters with lows in the upper 20's. And even if I add up just the last six winters the average winter low would still fall into the 10a (30-35F) zone.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

True would have to wrap with Christmas lights and sheets w/ patio heaters on that rare occasion....as long as it wasn't every year....know what I mean?

I got a small yard and two firepit areas...guess I could fire them up on the coldest nights for a few hours till the sun comes up.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I certainly would not call it reliable in Zone 9a in the south. 9a West and 9a South are two entirely different zones as far as survivability goes.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with all who say the USDA rating system is limited in its value in predicting how well plants will survive in the listed areas. I have always found much more accuracy in the Sunset zones.

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other thing that should be considered is the size of the plant....size matters when it comes to hardiness. Keith, I think you are jaded on some of the things that might be possible because you put in a lot of smaller plants and seedlings. I know that you had lots and lots of test subjects before the big freeze of 2010 and gave up on marginal stuff...but you really have to consider that maybe some of those plants might have survived if they were landscaped sized.

Of course it is a money thing, and it is hard to lose a larger more expensive palm, but it might just be worth a try. I'm sure I will be heartbroken if my experimental yard is blasted by an unusually cold year, but at this point in my life I feel like giving it a shot. Canopy is also a factor as well....that was my objective to put in some of the plants that I did and continue to put in. I will also at some point put in a 8-10 ft. wall around the entire yard, this will block most of the cold down low and make any heating efforts much more efficient. It will block traffic sound and sight which continues to be a problem for me as I feel like the cars are driving through my yard now.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually have a Dypsis decipiens in the ground now, but as you said it is a smaller palm, a gift. Many things are very hard to find in my area in size, D decipiens being one. What I really want to try at size, and from my seedling experience I think totally via here would be a Parajubaea, but again, availability is the issue. If only California was not such a long drive. :indifferent:

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BxP might even be better......what makes you want a P again? Did u note something that warrented further trials? More about your D. decipiens.....

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a guy here in Tallahassee growing a large clump of Chamaedorea, I believe hooperiana, which takes some damage in winter but survives.

Woodville, FL

zone 8b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The easiest rule to apply in landscaping (which took me about a decade to learn :mrlooney: ) is that one should never plant a palm/plant that they cant afford to lose.

And, when buying out of zone plants, one needs a certain detachment from them. I usually have a small memorial service and say my goodbyes upon initial planting. That way, the tough part is over with immediately :)

  • Like 1

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other thing that should be considered is the size of the plant....size matters when it comes to hardiness. Keith, I think you are jaded on some of the things that might be possible because you put in a lot of smaller plants and seedlings. I know that you had lots and lots of test subjects before the big freeze of 2010 and gave up on marginal stuff...but you really have to consider that maybe some of those plants might have survived if they were landscaped sized.

Of course it is a money thing, and it is hard to lose a larger more expensive palm, but it might just be worth a try. I'm sure I will be heartbroken if my experimental yard is blasted by an unusually cold year, but at this point in my life I feel like giving it a shot. Canopy is also a factor as well....that was my objective to put in some of the plants that I did and continue to put in. I will also at some point put in a 8-10 ft. wall around the entire yard, this will block most of the cold down low and make any heating efforts much more efficient. It will block traffic sound and sight which continues to be a problem for me as I feel like the cars are driving through my yard now.

These thoughts remind me of my efforts a number of years ago. Ive lost count of how many "palm socks" I had, how many massive construction heaters, how many propane tanks Id keep stored in my garage........

The cruel problem with all my efforts was that, if an advective fronts came through (these are the worst ones), no reasonable amount of supplemental heat is likely to help :indifferent: 20-30 mph winds at 20F cant be countered very effectively. The only thing that can be protected is the smaller stuff that can be wrapped and heated (with cables, rope lights, etc).

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The old days!

socks.jpg

th_Heaters.jpg

Edited by spockvr6

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glenn, you live in a 9a with a successful number of A. cunninghamiana, correct?

John Case

Brentwood CA

Owner and curator of Hana Keu Garden

USDA Zone 9b more or less, Sunset Zone 14 in winter 9 in summer

"Its always exciting the first time you save the world. Its a real thrill!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with all who say the USDA rating system is limited in its value in predicting how well plants will survive in the listed areas. I have always found much more accuracy in the Sunset zones.

How true! I find the Sunset zones way more reliable. USDA is nothing more than an average of the extreme low temp, which says little about duration, dewpoints, and whether a freeze is advective or radiative. The latter three have far more impact in how well a plant will survive. For example, parts of Modesto and parts of Santa Cruz get the same absolute lows every year. Yet many palms survive Winters here much better. That's because the freezes are simply different even if the absolute lows may be close. Both Sunset zone 15 and zone 14 are USDA 9b with similar all time lows, but there is a world of difference in the intensity of the cold.

The easiest rule to apply in landscaping (which took me about a decade to learn :mrlooney: ) is that one should never plant a palm/plant that they cant afford to lose.

And, when buying out of zone plants, one needs a certain detachment from them. I usually have a small memorial service and say my goodbyes upon initial planting. That way, the tough part is over with immediately :)

This is true. I like to use the 80/20 rule: 80% of a garden needs to be bullet proof. 20% can be dedicated to zone stretches that you have to be willing to loose. In San Jose, IPS members often joke about king palms being pseudo-perrenials. Every 7-12 years a freeze comes along that takes them out. Because it's such a fast palm in San Jose's hot Summers, it's easy to just replace with a new palm the same way you'd swap out a tomato plant the following year, except you do it every 7-12 years. Unfortunately, dypsis are often so slow to get established that they don't lend themselves well as a 7-12 year perrenial.

After what I experienced this past week in terms of freezing temperatures, I really would limit the marginal stuff to no more than 20%, maybe even less. And I am not sure a dypsis decipiens is something worth investing in if it's gonna risk getting fried, just takes too long to get established. So if you do grow one, better be willing to wrap it and heat it during freezes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I kind of live by the 80/20 rule as well. Most all the large foundation plantings are pretty darn solid around here. There are examples of most of these palms around this area that have been here a for 15 years or more. I also have the philosophy that life is short and you may as well take some chances. Also, I like the idea that some palms grow really fast........therefore plant them like they will die every few years....these type palms have to be bought fairly cheap and enjoyed like a annual.

The fun part of my particular yard is that I'm working on the 20% that is marginal.....fun, fun, fun.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Larry I love the palm socks! David I am gonna go with A. Cunningham and wrap it with the method that walt in Florida uses for his coconut. I figure our hot wet summers will allow a king to grow pretty fast and like you said low 20s happen about once every 10 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to order 6 decipiens 1 gallon size from Floribunda....but they come bare root I think?.....has anyone had experience with these being shipped bare root? Should I pot them up or put them strait in the ground? I still got Jan. and Feb. to go up here in N. Fl. zone 9a......I worry about potting them

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to order 6 decipiens 1 gallon size from Floribunda....but they come bare root I think?.....has anyone had experience with these being shipped bare root? Should I pot them up or put them strait in the ground? I still got Jan. and Feb. to go up here in N. Fl. zone 9a......I worry about potting them

Florida is dry and mild this time of year, it's perfect decipiens growing weather. In your climate, plant them straight into the ground now and buy some silver bubble wrap to protect them if temps are predicted to go below 25F. Anything above 25F is not worth protecting against. I planted a one gallon decipiens that laughed off the freeze we just had, fully exposed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to order 6 decipiens 1 gallon size from Floribunda....but they come bare root I think?.....has anyone had experience with these being shipped bare root? Should I pot them up or put them strait in the ground? I still got Jan. and Feb. to go up here in N. Fl. zone 9a......I worry about potting them

Florida is dry and mild this time of year, it's perfect decipiens growing weather. In your climate, plant them straight into the ground now and buy some silver bubble wrap to protect them if temps are predicted to go below 25F. Anything above 25F is not worth protecting against. I planted a one gallon decipiens that laughed off the freeze we just had, fully exposed.

Axel, pics please after the freeze.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't buy bare roots decipiens as they are root sensitive, and i wouldn't plant them in winter...

07690.gif

elevation 328 feet

distance from mediteranean sea 1,1 mile

lowest t° 2009/2010 : 27F

lowest t° 2008/2009 : 33F

lowest t° 2007/2008 : 32F

lowest t° 2006/2007 : 35F

lowest t° 2005/2006 : 27F

lowest t° 2004/2005 : 25F

Historical lowest t° 1985 : 18F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glenn, you live in a 9a with a successful number of A. cunninghamiana, correct?

Hi John- According to the maps I am 9b but I am colder than most parts of the bay area that are listed same. Sunset zone 14 is a more accurate description of my area. Yes, I have had a number of A cunninghamiana "Illawara's" for 10 years in the ground. They defoliate almost every winter-then come back.

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David, they are from Floribunda....$7 each - 1 gallon size. I am apprehensive about them being bare rooted as well, but I think others here have had success with them from this renown grower. At $7 it might be worth the gamble. Getting other stuff in the same shipment.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could Dypsis decipiens be the only reliable crownshafted palm for zone 9a. This is the conclusion that I am starting to draw as my quest for a hardy crownshafted palm continues. Another contender would be the trunking form of C. radicalis, but this palm is very dainty and doesn't compare to D. decipiens IMO.

In California and other Meditteranian climates I guess there might be something else that can take temps into the low 20's, but in more sub-tropical climates I think D. decipiens might be all we got. Any thoughts concerning hardy crownshafts that can take 20 degrees F. (-6.67 C.) as an ultimate brief low?

I have the trunking form of C. radicalis in my garden. Tough as nails, cold hardy to 20, and below, but your are right, no presence to speak of.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keith....do you have a male or female?

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...