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Red colored bismarckia


Mauna Kea Cloudforest

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I agree with Triode lots of heat will do the trick this one went in the ground 3/09 as u can see from the first pic it was a fairly large 15 gallon and now taken this morning with a 10.5 sandle for comparison all the artificial rock and that fence behind it absorb lots of heat throughout the day and provides heat at night. I have heavy clay soil and as some have mentioned in another thread i have never dug a hole bigger than the container the plant came in.

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I have an orange-red leafed bizzie. Not purple, but red.

In order to get a sense of the spectrum of genes in bismarckia and find some clones that might like our Tasmanian-style mild but coolish climate that features Summer lows as chilly as 42F, I planted a half dozen of them from distinct sources and age groups. If they all get huge I've got a big problem, but the idea is that nature would do some selection (with some of my help - ugly ones would get the ax.)

When I shopped around last Spring, I came across one 15 gallon specimen that had orange-red leaves, not purple ones. For kicks, I went ahead and bought it because I was curious. During the Summer, it put out nice blue-teal, almost copper-blue colored leaves, but the old leaves kept some of the red. Now that we've had some chill accumulations (temps below 45F) at night, those new leaves are also turning orangish-red. With the rate of chill accumulation we get around these parts, this thing will be cherry red by March.

In contrast, all the other ones I grow are totally silver-blue and showing no signs of stress. The largest specimen I have that happens to be the most powder white-bue color has continued to grow through the cold nights and has even opened a new leaf about a week ago. The new leaf is actually light green at this point and probably won't get more waxy silver until it gets hot again. It's not showing any signs or red, but it only looks good between 11AM and 2PM. Before and after that, it seems the sunlight spectrum just isn't right to really show off the silver and it looks almost gray-green.

I am puzzled by the orange-red color on the one funky bizze, it definitely looks like stress, but so far, people walking through the garden look at it and usually react with a "oooh" and an "ahhhh". I am not going to complain, it looks cool.

Here's the red one last February - it's not quite as red anymore, but the red is coming back now.

20130323_163757_zpsbf2bf706.jpg

Silver-blue one:

20130831_151749_zpsebf63145.jpg

Axel,

One thing that is interesting about your photo of the reddish/purplish Bizzie is that the newest set of fronds appear to be more red/purple, but the some of the previous ones have more of a greenish/silverish/bluish look?

Steve, very astute observation. What you're seeing is that the underside of the fronds are blue, and the upper sides of the fronds that were exposed to the Jan 2013 freeze at Joe Debrowski's place are red. That's the state in which I got it from Joe Debrowski. They got zapped by the Jan 2013 freeze in San Marcos (North County). I believe Joe got to about 27F. I bought two specimens from him, a totally blue-silver one that is still blue silver under exactly the same conditions, and the red one which intrigued me because it was so red. I wanted to try both.

The red one has only one new leaf since I planted it at my house and that leaf is blue, not red. It was exposed to 5 nights around 32F - 34F, there is no additional red discoloration, and the newest leaf is just slightly more purplish than before the freeze.

However, the large silver blue 30" box I got from Palm Valley Ranch and planted in my lower yard where it both gets hotter in the Summer and frostier in the Winter got exposed to 26F for one night and another three at 28-29F. It had put out a new frond about 3 weeks prior to the freeze, so not completely hardened off. The entire palm was 100% blue silver before the freeze.

After the freeze sometimes, I took a closer look and noticed red hue on the sun exposed sides of the newest leaf and of all the petioles. The north shaded side still features green petioles. To be more precise, the petioles are maroon red on the sun exposed side and green on the shaded side.

There is zero doubt in my mind that the sub-32F temps made this thing pick up some red coloration. I believe sub freezing temps make them turn red when they're younger, but obviously that tendency must diminish with age as they get bigger.

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I have an orange-red leafed bizzie. Not purple, but red.

In order to get a sense of the spectrum of genes in bismarckia and find some clones that might like our Tasmanian-style mild but coolish climate that features Summer lows as chilly as 42F, I planted a half dozen of them from distinct sources and age groups. If they all get huge I've got a big problem, but the idea is that nature would do some selection (with some of my help - ugly ones would get the ax.)

When I shopped around last Spring, I came across one 15 gallon specimen that had orange-red leaves, not purple ones. For kicks, I went ahead and bought it because I was curious. During the Summer, it put out nice blue-teal, almost copper-blue colored leaves, but the old leaves kept some of the red. Now that we've had some chill accumulations (temps below 45F) at night, those new leaves are also turning orangish-red. With the rate of chill accumulation we get around these parts, this thing will be cherry red by March.

In contrast, all the other ones I grow are totally silver-blue and showing no signs of stress. The largest specimen I have that happens to be the most powder white-bue color has continued to grow through the cold nights and has even opened a new leaf about a week ago. The new leaf is actually light green at this point and probably won't get more waxy silver until it gets hot again. It's not showing any signs or red, but it only looks good between 11AM and 2PM. Before and after that, it seems the sunlight spectrum just isn't right to really show off the silver and it looks almost gray-green.

I am puzzled by the orange-red color on the one funky bizze, it definitely looks like stress, but so far, people walking through the garden look at it and usually react with a "oooh" and an "ahhhh". I am not going to complain, it looks cool.

Here's the red one last February - it's not quite as red anymore, but the red is coming back now.

20130323_163757_zpsbf2bf706.jpg

Silver-blue one:

20130831_151749_zpsebf63145.jpg

Axel,

One thing that is interesting about your photo of the reddish/purplish Bizzie is that the newest set of fronds appear to be more red/purple, but the some of the previous ones have more of a greenish/silverish/bluish look?

I agree. Even on his Bismarckia is very easy too see, that older fronds are silver, and new ones are red. So cleary that bismarckia changed color from silver to red. And cold climate is a reason why.

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So when I got home I took a pic of one of mine that is red. I also took a pic of one of my father in laws who lives 3 doors up from me. His is solid blue and mine is red. They both are in the same exact climate the exact same soil. So why is mine red and his is blue? Note in the pic I made sure you could see my jacaranda in the background so you would know I wasn't faking this. So clearly it is not from the temps that makes them go red. I have a perfectly silver one in my back yard too. I'd say its a natural variation. Just like red and green h. Indica or how some c.macrocarpa will throw red leaves and some throw green. One thing I can say for sure is that it's not from the cold.

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Because, like I said before every speciment is different. The same ways like every human is different. Some are more hardy, less sensitive and some less hardy, more sensitive.

The same way as some palms of the same specie will be killed at 25F and some will survive.

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So wouldn't it stand to reason that Bizzy's that are red when young would be the most cold hardy and the most silver as an adult?

More cold = More red

Red Bizzy's -> Silver Bizzy's not Green

Silver > Green in cold hardiness

Or is my logic flawed?

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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So wouldn't it stand to reason that Bizzy's that are red when young would be the most cold hardy and the most silver as an adult?

More cold = More red

Red Bizzy's -> Silver Bizzy's not Green

Silver > Green in cold hardiness

Or is my logic flawed?

I would say.

1. Small silver ones are more cold hardy than small red ones. Because cold did not affected silver ones.

2. I agree with this. Only silver ones can become red in cold or in some other conditions. Green ones are always green.

3. I agree with this.

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So wouldn't it stand to reason that Bizzy's that are red when young would be the most cold hardy and the most silver as an adult?

More cold = More red

Red Bizzy's -> Silver Bizzy's not Green

Silver > Green in cold hardiness

Or is my logic flawed?

I would say.

1. Small silver ones are more cold hardy than small red ones. Because cold did not affected silver ones.

2. I agree with this. Only silver ones can become red in cold or in some other conditions. Green ones are always green.

3. I agree with this.

Small red/purple ones are more cold hardy than small silver ones. The red/purple is a sign that they can withstand more frost. This I know because I saw a batch of a hundred 5 gallon plants exposed to 24F. The only ones that did not have foliar damage were the red purple ones. Take a look at David's dark maroon bismarckia surviving without damage a convective freeze with an absolute low of 19F. That is yet another proof point.

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So wouldn't it stand to reason that Bizzy's that are red when young would be the most cold hardy and the most silver as an adult?

More cold = More red

Red Bizzy's -> Silver Bizzy's not Green

Silver > Green in cold hardiness

Or is my logic flawed?

That is the logic I go by and not just me.

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Ok here you go, an actual study showing photosynthesis(C02 consumption) rates expected to be doubled for green leaves. U Colorado Boulder

http://www.colorado.edu/eeb/courses/1230jbasey/abstracts/29.htm

Im sure there is some anecdotal evidence to refute it, but this is about C02 consumption. And yes it looks like information. Its just an abstract, but it is at least a measurement of photosynthesis. And it isn't some vague magazine article....

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Tom, the photosynthesis red vs green isn't really anything that I'm interested in. I really don't know I don't claim to in that regard. My comments are based mainly on if red is signs of a stressed plant. As far as axels showing silver that mean nothing. My red one has silver on it too. One leaf is a 50/50 split. I'll take pics when I get home. Once they go full silver they don't go back. That's why you will never see a large red bizzy. If you can show me one I'll admit I was wrong. You can not say that the bizzy I showed earlier wasn't stressed. The thing looks like hell yet it was red before I transplanted it. It went into shock and turned silver. If stress causes red then It would be loaded with deformed red leaves but it wasn't.

"it's not dead it's sleeping"

Santee ca, zone10a/9b

18 miles from the ocean

avg. winter 68/40.avg summer 88/64.records 113/25

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Tom, the photosynthesis red vs green isn't really anything that I'm interested in. I really don't know I don't claim to in that regard. My comments are based mainly on if red is signs of a stressed plant. As far as axels showing silver that mean nothing. My red one has silver on it too. One leaf is a 50/50 split. I'll take pics when I get home. Once they go full silver they don't go back. That's why you will never see a large red bizzy. If you can show me one I'll admit I was wrong. You can not say that the bizzy I showed earlier wasn't stressed. The thing looks like hell yet it was red before I transplanted it. It went into shock and turned silver. If stress causes red then It would be loaded with deformed red leaves but it wasn't.

Steve, what you say sounds like music to my ears and I really hope you are right. The main reason I started this discussion is that I was afraid these things would turn red every Winter for their lifetime. I don't have enough heat to get them to revert to silver in one season. If that's not the case, then that's great news for me. I guess I will find out long term. I did see some "regression" to red on my largest specimen, but I am hoping this will happen less and less as this thing gets older.

As for the red suggesting it's a sign of general stress, I think that's just plain and simply wrong based on all the bismarckia I saw last year that had root damage. No red, just yellow and brown.

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It will turn silver over time. Mine was blood red for 2 years until it hit about 5 foot and I have the heat for sure. 4 + months of high 80s to low 100s. And once it fully goes silver it will never turn red again. Look for a big red bizzy. You'll never find one.

"it's not dead it's sleeping"

Santee ca, zone10a/9b

18 miles from the ocean

avg. winter 68/40.avg summer 88/64.records 113/25

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Tom, the photosynthesis red vs green isn't really anything that I'm interested in. I really don't know I don't claim to in that regard. My comments are based mainly on if red is signs of a stressed plant. As far as axels showing silver that mean nothing. My red one has silver on it too. One leaf is a 50/50 split. I'll take pics when I get home. Once they go full silver they don't go back. That's why you will never see a large red bizzy. If you can show me one I'll admit I was wrong. You can not say that the bizzy I showed earlier wasn't stressed. The thing looks like hell yet it was red before I transplanted it. It went into shock and turned silver. If stress causes red then It would be loaded with deformed red leaves but it wasn't.

If you want to learn about red, look up anthocyanins... I am done here...

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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If only you could root prune you big bizzies to turn the red. That would be awesome!

"it's not dead it's sleeping"

Santee ca, zone10a/9b

18 miles from the ocean

avg. winter 68/40.avg summer 88/64.records 113/25

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Just read this. Wish I hadn't! Keep it friendly guys.

Small ones go red in response to cool weather here but it is a trait they grow out of. When larger they go yellowish-green or have yellowish rings in reponse to damp cold. I remember well a hair-raising motorbike taxi ride to Nong Nooch. On the way be passed hundreds of small Bismarckias in concrete pots and many of them had strong purple hues and rather few leaves. I have to admit I was pleased to see them looking just like my young plants.

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  • 5 weeks later...

I'm a little reluctant to pull the scab off this thread but I have definitely watched a very silver (with purple hints) 15 gal Bismarck from San Diego which I planted here during our relatively warm January show a progressive shift toward red/purple coloration over the last eight weeks during our warmer than usual (but still frosty) winter here. It has two unopened spears, the larger of which has a bit of patchy superficial brownish necrosis/?fungal growth on the abaxial side while the shorter spear looks fine. I just removed the lowest two of about 10 open leaves which had given up the ghost. Some green is noted

So I interpret this as a response to its recent change in environment which includes multiple variables (transplant shock, colder temperatures, shorter days, possibly wetter soil).

From one who could fill a plants pathologist's career with dead Bismarcks, I'm pretty hopeful about this one. We've had two bright, sunny 70 degree days and a few more are on the horizon before we hopefully get some much needed rain.

I probably unwisely watered the roots yesterday and sprayed Daconil on the spears today. Would anyone put an umbrella over this or put a tarp over the roots during our next rain?

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/95991?month=-1

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/95991?month=0

post-3415-0-42185300-1393131370_thumb.jp

post-3415-0-90757700-1393131385_thumb.jp

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I'm a little reluctant to pull the scab off this thread but I have definitely watched a very silver (with purple hints) 15 gal Bismarck from San Diego which I planted here during our relatively warm January show a progressive shift toward red/purple coloration over the last eight weeks during our warmer than usual (but still frosty) winter here. It has two unopened spears, the larger of which has a bit of patchy superficial brownish necrosis/?fungal growth on the abaxial side while the shorter spear looks fine. I just removed the lowest two of about 10 open leaves which had given up the ghost. Some green is noted So I interpret this as a response to its recent change in environment which includes multiple variables (transplant shock, colder temperatures, shorter days, possibly wetter soil). From one who could fill a plants pathologist's career with dead Bismarcks, I'm pretty hopeful about this one. We've had two bright, sunny 70 degree days and a few more are on the horizon before we hopefully get some much needed rain. I probably unwisely watered the roots yesterday and sprayed Daconil on the spears today. Would anyone put an umbrella over this or put a tarp over the roots during our next rain? http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/95991?month=-1http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/95991?month=0

Is it in the shade, it looks stretched? Definitely not looking good. I don't think stopping the water would hurt at all. May be good to keep water out of the crown too.

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It's in full sunlight all day. It's up on a little mound.

At best I'm probably about as far north in California as a Bismarck will grow and probably more realistically I'm out of bounds for Bismarck survival unless our winters change dramatically. If I only had a brain.

I think I'll keep the rain off it for a month or so and keep praying.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMYV/2014/1/22/MonthlyHistory.html

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I'm a little reluctant to pull the scab off this thread but I have definitely watched a very silver (with purple hints) 15 gal Bismarck from San Diego which I planted here during our relatively warm January show a progressive shift toward red/purple coloration over the last eight weeks during our warmer than usual (but still frosty) winter here. It has two unopened spears, the larger of which has a bit of patchy superficial brownish necrosis/?fungal growth on the abaxial side while the shorter spear looks fine. I just removed the lowest two of about 10 open leaves which had given up the ghost. Some green is noted

So I interpret this as a response to its recent change in environment which includes multiple variables (transplant shock, colder temperatures, shorter days, possibly wetter soil).

From one who could fill a plants pathologist's career with dead Bismarcks, I'm pretty hopeful about this one. We've had two bright, sunny 70 degree days and a few more are on the horizon before we hopefully get some much needed rain.

I probably unwisely watered the roots yesterday and sprayed Daconil on the spears today. Would anyone put an umbrella over this or put a tarp over the roots during our next rain?

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/95991?month=-1

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/95991?month=0

I don't see how letting rain fall on your bismarckia is going to harm your plant this late in the year. If it was late Fall or early Winter and the rain would be followed by 6-8 weeks of Winter chill, then I'd say you have something to worry about. But we're past Feb 20th, which means not only do temperatures warm up significantly due to the higher sun angle, but we gain 15 minutes of daylight each day. The higher sun angle and shorter nights means the soil temperatures are on the rise. I say let your baby get rained on, it's not going to harm it.

Don't pamper this thing, it would probably do it more harm than good. A little red and purple isn't going to hurt it. Besides, if it's gonna die from Spring rains, then why bother growing it?

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Sarasota provides a unique environment for observing Bizzies under various conditions. First of all - they are everywhere! Thousands of them. But that's the case anywhere in Central or South Florida. What is cool about Sarasota is you get most of the area split between zones 10a and 9b, with some 10b areas on the islands. So on cold nights one can observe these palms in all three zones in a matter of 20 minutes.

So here are the observations:

  • Silver or near-silver Bismarckia (99.98% of them in the area are some shade of silver, green are rare) thrive and reproduce in all of these zones and are in fact one the fastest growing species in our area.
  • Back in 2010 hundreds of Bizzies inland got exposed to mid-20's and many sustained low to moderate degree of damaged. Never once have I seen any of them start producing red leaves. I have seen red-colored necrotic tissue on damaged leaves, but that is a different story.
  • On average the more silver the mother plant - the more purple the seedlings are under it. And no it's not colder next to the silver ones. This can easily be observed in places where there are more and less silver female specimens grow next to each other.
  • Bizzies I observe planted as 15g or smaller that are still purple/red to a degree on average make a more strikingly silver specimens.

None-Sarasota observations:

  • Seedlings from very silver plants germinated and grown in greenhouse conditions are mostly purple.
  • This one is to be fair - I have seen a couple of small Bizzies go from blue to red under stress of winter. But that was in zone 9a north of Houston, TX, where they were exposed to multiple days in low 20's. That however is an extreme scenario, does not even begin to account for the large number of purple/red Bismarckia in zones 9b and above.
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<p>

Sarasota provides a unique environment for observing Bizzies under various conditions. First of all - they are everywhere! Thousands of them. But that's the case anywhere in Central or South Florida. What is cool about Sarasota is you get most of the area split between zones 10a and 9b, with some 10b areas on the islands. So on cold nights one can observe these palms in all three zones in a matter of 20 minutes.

So here are the observations:

  • Silver or near-silver Bismarckia (99.98% of them in the area are some shade of silver, green are rare) thrive and reproduce in all of these zones and are in fact one the fastest growing species in our area.
  • Back in 2010 hundreds of Bizzies inland got exposed to mid-20's and many sustained low to moderate degree of damaged. Never once have I seen any of them start producing red leaves. I have seen red-colored necrotic tissue on damaged leaves, but that is a different story.
  • On average the more silver the mother plant - the more purple the seedlings are under it. And no it's not colder next to the silver ones. This can easily be observed in places where there are more and less silver female specimens grow next to each other.
  • Bizzies I observe planted as 15g or smaller that are still purple/red to a degree on average make a more strikingly silver specimens.
None-Sarasota observations:
  • Seedlings from very silver plants germinated and grown in greenhouse conditions are mostly purple.
  • This one is to be fair - I have seen a couple of small Bizzies go from blue to red under stress of winter. But that was in zone 9a north of Houston, TX, where they were exposed to multiple days in low 20's. That however is an extreme scenario, does not even begin to account for the large number of purple/red Bismarckia in zones 9b and above.

Thanks for sharing this. I recently germinated green bizzies in the greenhouse. Guess what, they're reddish.

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Sabal Steve - that is a very robust growing palm you have planted in a narrow area between the sidewalk and street. Bismarckias develop their maximum width before they trunk and begin their vertical growth.

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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Just got back from a trip to Disneyworld.

Awesome silver Bismarcks all over.

Update on my seedling - definitely survived transplantation. One spear has opened, the other looks good and a new one is forming. Lots of 80 degree days ahead. Should really settle in this summer. Definitely my best shot at a Bismarck since I started trying four or five years ago.

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  • 5 months later...

Here is my red one.....not so red anymore....post-97-0-60855800-1410553543_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Mine is red in Winter and nice and Silver now. I think the silver leaves are mostly new ones from this year and the red ones died or are dying off.

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On mine the red is masked over by glaucous wax on the old leaves. The new leaves are green underneath the wax.

I think the red is fine, it's actually pretty and different. So my bismarckia show the seasons, as long as it doesn't include a deciduous phase, I am satisfied with how they perform.

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While I didn't buy a large one from Phil at Jungle Music I did ask him why mine went from Blue to a purple/reddish hue and was told that that wasn't uncommon when temps drop especially in smaller ones. I had mine in a hobby greenhouse where it could get as cold as 30f but usually around 50f at the coldest. Of course daytime temps would rocket up into the 90's or low 100's so I thought that wild temp swing had something to do with it as well.

Summer came, and back outside in it's pot in the sunniest/hottest part of the yard I have and still hasn't turned all the way back to it's Blue color...but is alive.

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Here are mine.

This one I only just planted on 24th August this year. I had it in the position for a few weeks before planting so it got to endure one of the coldest nights Adelaide has seen for a few decades, It has some funky red/purple colours.

post-10546-0-60586300-1410614419_thumb.j

Same palm but on the deck there is a smaller Bismarkia that is now red

post-10546-0-65591500-1410614850_thumb.j

Planted 4 years ago recovering from planting shock

post-10546-0-41891100-1410615038_thumb.j

Another angle

post-10546-0-68176300-1410615068_thumb.j

I was told not to worry about them changing colours it is just something they do and grow out of when grown in cooler areas

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  • 5 months later...

I changed my mind.....cold weather stress does change the color back to red/purple. I believe it is both genetic and environmental that causes the color....still expect this palm to be very silver when older...will post picture this pm.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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like i said in the other bizzy thread, i have 3 with 2 being the standard ones and 1 having alot more red/purple hues, i don't think the weather has anything to do with it since all 3 are right next to each other and i've had all 3 for at least 2 years now. both winters have been super mild with maybe 2 days in the 39° range, don't think it's really dropped more than that and they all see full sun all day in the winter and summer

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Here is mine....back to purple after cold temps.....the second pic is

from this summer on this same palm.post-97-0-79891900-1424835978_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-70498600-1424836320_thumb.jpg

I had a low temp of 21 F. In November and several other freezes in the mid to upper 20's

  • Upvote 1

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Put a cardboard liquor case over the top of it.....I think it was a 1.75L case...lol

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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  • 4 months later...

Same palm this summer.....temps 90 plus daily.post-97-0-29846200-1435277992_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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My Bismarckia is completely content in its fringe zone 10 climate and has never shown any red as an adult. To me, it's normal for a juvenile Bizzie to be red.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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  • 9 months later...

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