MAJOR CHANGES FOR PALMTALK ????? PLEASE READ AND HEED

[Alicehunter2000]

I second the Kim nomination. Sur4z was the first in the post near the top of the thread.

[LJG]

And for my last post for a bit - easily 15 hours at this over the last 48 hours. :(Regarding the cost issue --- we pulled in, with ad revenue and the fund raiser, possibly as much as $7000 so far this year. That is a big chunk of the $11-12,000 it costs to provide. And this does not account for any memberships generated here, or donations that may have been made outside of the Donate Button.It should be noted that when the IPS gives away grant money - what is it getting in return? So why if it gives money to PT, why does it suddenly expect a return? I would hate to have witnessed the state of the IPS today if PT had not been in existence the last 8 years. IMO - the money could not have been better spent.But the big problem is that there is no method in place to credit PT with any of this generated revenue. I know, that's ridiculous - but don't get me started. Get ready to announce your candidacy when the new IPS Election Forum opens.And - has anyone nominated Kim yet? We also need a second.

Thanks Dean. I have stated this a few times too. The culture within the IPS and most board members will need to change to move forward in this digital age. Technology won't stop moving forward. So die like a dinosaur or adapt change.

[Shirleypalmpaws]

Dean, wow wholey cow....you've been doing mod for eight years? Hats off, you're something special!

[palmsrgreat]

I left this board and a member of the IPS quite a few years ago.

I recently became attracted back to the board and most importantly back to pursuing growing palms. As of this morning I renewed my membership to the IPS before noticing this new topic of discussion. I'm a bit saddened that there has not been much progress to some of the same issues happening years ago.

I hope we can all find an answer and utilize our votea as a member of the IPS to change things. I know I feel better I'm a member again and have a vote to push toward change.

[redant]

"But if anyone wants my job, let me know" :floor: :floor: . As I have said before you must be a saint to put up with what you do. I'd rather trade stocks all day but thanks. You have a Job nobody wants or even realizes what goes into it, all for slightly above walmart pay.

[MattyB]

If I was wealthy, had no interest in an internet forum, but loved palms and could write off my vacations as a business expense, and was told by some lawyer who wants to sound relevant that the forum needs to go, then I'd vote down the forum any day.

[PALM MOD]

Dean, this is only because the IPS is technology deficient, if that.

Isn't that what I said. If not, I apologize.

I can only work with what I have or what I am given to work with. And with what I/we have, what you have proposed is not feasible. We have broached the idea of blending the two sites (palms.org and palm talk.org), so there would be some integration with the two different memberships on two different data bases. But it is a large (for them) undertaking and expense. A non-starter given the present state of affairs.

[MattyB]

Sample letter. Email addresses. New thread.

[turfpro01]

If they are worried about liability why not separate PT from IPS just like big company's do when they have multiple companies. Just make the IPS a sponsor of PT, If IPS want to see how much support they get from PT, they add a box to check when you pay dues, that states you are a PT member and pay dues to IPS to help support PT. OR have a link to pay dues from here so they know how much money they get from member here.

[Perito]

What are the chances of a successful litigation against IPS for anything that happens between members, privately through Personal Messaging on Palmtalk? Think of all the Websites that set up online dating, sales of goods between private parties, or any social media sites. It would be interesting to know if any of them have ever been found liable for unlawful activities of the members. I seriously doubt it.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

The reason private messages are a liability is because Dean and other Mods actually read them. The phone company doesn't get sued because their lines are used for illegal activity. The reason is simple: they don't evesdrop on private conversation. Only law enforcement do that. The moment they listen and know what is being said, they take on the liability.

So as long as mods snoop around in private messages, the Palm Society is taking on the liability of their content. No wonder they have to shut them down. If the mods stopped doing this and respected the fact that personal messages are indeed personal and none of their business, then the problem would be gone. Guarantee the privacy of private messages, and you are no more liable for their content than any phone company is for what their lines are used for.

[Perito]

Great point Axel, and I'll be interested in what Dean will say about why the PM's must be monitored.

[PALM MOD]

The reason private messages are a liability is because Dean and other Mods actually read them. The phone company doesn't get sued because their lines are used for illegal activity. The reason is simple: they don't evesdrop on private conversation. Only law enforcement do that. The moment they listen and know what is being said, they take on the liability.

So as long as mods snoop around in private messages, the Palm Society is taking on the liability of their content. No wonder they have to shut them down. If the mods stopped doing this and respected the fact that personal messages are indeed personal and none of their business, then the problem would be gone. Guarantee the privacy of private messages, and you are no more liable for their content than any phone company is for what their lines are used for.

Axel - again you are spouting off about something you do not know anything about - just as I explained to you in that PM earlier today about that other matter. It is becoming a habit. This PM situation has all been explained in the past - on more than one occasion. But I guess I have to do it again, since you are new here. No problem though, I'm bored and have plenty of time to burn.

When someone has their PMs set for email notification, they get an email that has the PM in it along with a big notice at the bottom in caps that says DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS EMAIL..........." and says to go to the PM system to respond. Well, many people never read that, they respond via the email. It happens all the time. When they do this, I get that email as a bounced error message. I read these because many times it has been very important to the person. Like, "I'll be at the airport to pick you up, don't worry. Just give me the time and gate." So I will take the time to alert this person that their important message did not make it to the person who was expecting it, or I will forward it myself to the person to which it was intended. I do it as a favor. Nobody is snooping, or wants to "snoop on messages." You must think I walk neighborhoods peeping in people's windows too.

If you don't want your email/PM read, then follow the instructions - they will remain private to my eyes. But that doesn't mean a hacker or law enforcement will do the same. As I have said numerous times, and it has been all over the news lately - nothing you send electronically should be considered private anymore - end of story. But don't accuse the Mods of snooping or monitoring PMs when you have no proof, nor could you ever find any. It is simply a flat out falsehood, and I (and the other Mods) would appreciate an apology.

[Jonathan]

Just out of interest, I went through the the first 62 pages of 248 pages (so 1/4) of the Palmtalk Members list and noted how many forum members were also IPS members.

The answer was interesting:

64 people in the first 1/4 were members, which if taken as a reasonable representative sample (this would be a massive sample in a newspaper poll), then you could extrapolate that 256 forum members are also IPS members.

So at $45 per year membership dues x 256 you get the grand total of $11520, or $320 more than the budgeteted allowance for running Palmtalk as provided by the IPS.

Which means that if the primary reason for those forum members joining the IPS was due to the interest in and use of Palmtalk (which I suspect in the majority of cases would be true) then Palmtalk is actually turning a modest proffit!

I know that its probably beside the point, and that the issue is PM's, but it is a compelling argument for maintaining forum members rights to use the board as it currently exists.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Cindy Adair]

Just out of interest, I went through the the first 62 pages of 248 pages (so 1/4) of the Palmtalk Members list and noted how many forum members were also IPS members.

The answer was interesting:

64 people in the first 1/4 were members, which if taken as a reasonable representative sample (this would be a massive sample in a newspaper poll), then you could extrapolate that 256 forum members are also IPS members.

So at $45 per year membership dues x 256 you get the grand total of $11520, or $320 more than the budgeteted allowance for running Palmtalk as provided by the IPS.

Which means that if the primary reason for those forum members joining the IPS was due to the interest in and use of Palmtalk (which I suspect in the majority of cases would be true) then Palmtalk is actually turning a modest proffit!

I know that its probably beside the point, and that the issue is PM's, but it is a compelling argument for maintaining forum members rights to use the board as it currently exists.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Interesting statistics and thanks for your efforts!

[Cindy Adair]

We all want the IPS board to respond ASAP to our concerns, especially those that were at the recent meeting. I hope that they are still traveling and recovering from their long flights from Peru. I hope that in whatever way they do communicate they are now aware of the crisis mode voiced by us here.

We are quite upset about what seems like a not fully thought out and potentially devastating vote towards the end of a single meeting. However I was not present to hear the full details.

What I really want is communication by the IPS board with Palmtalk opening up the liability/cost concerns for more consideration rather than a final decision and edict to start in only 30 days.

We have lots of great ideas and are passionate about this forum. If we abandon ship so to speak we are guilty of the same rush to judgment that has fueled this fire.

There is a firm deadline to nominate potential board members and it sounds like we have some additional great choices. So I will continue to reflect on my ability to serve and ask that all who are interested in running do the same.

I will write the board members this weekend and ask for reconsideration and reflection with respect for their hard work. I will ask them to make a response to the forum itself, but stress the number of PT members who have publically stated they will not renew if this situation isn't resolved. I will share my letter to the board with Palmtalk after I write and send it. It will be my thoughts alone, but if it helps anyone else to formulate their own letter then fine by me.

I will give the Board a grace period after their recent travel to collect their thoughts and time to read all of our related threads if they choose. Then and only then is it really appropriate to consider leaving for another forum. The last thing we want is to elect several new and enthusiastic PT supporters to the IPS Board only to have Palmtalk as we know it no longer an option. Then let's get back to palms!

[Kim]

The Board really needs to see sincere, common sense comments like Cindy's above.

However, I see a lot of false accusations, such as some board members not having email access, and a mountain of misinformation being spewed here on PT. I'm still traveling, but when I get back I'll take the time to help set the story straight. (slap you around a little!!)

I hear the Board is "getting the message" but a workable solution is not yet in hand. With Dean and Len on point for this, I feel confident a reasonable resolution will materialize.

It is really good to see how many of you really value PalmTalk, just as I do.

And special thanks to Peter/sur4z, Lee, and David/Alicehunter for nominating me, I am deeply appreciative that you stepped up for me.

Cheers,

Kim

[Jeff Searle]

So, you want to criticize, second guess, or become a board member. This is not about a reaction to PT or its existence. It is not about PM, or IM, or anything like that. It is about sustainability and evolution of an organization. Read, and not just the latest thread, or even two or three. Educate yourself. State your platform for the continuation of the organization, not just a part of it, for the whole of it. Quit reacting and get proactive. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO HELP? It is not all about Palmtalk?

I am going to post this in every related thread.

Keith,

OK, we get it!

[Jeff Searle]

The reason private messages are a liability is because Dean and other Mods actually read them. The phone company doesn't get sued because their lines are used for illegal activity. The reason is simple: they don't evesdrop on private conversation. Only law enforcement do that. The moment they listen and know what is being said, they take on the liability.

So as long as mods snoop around in private messages, the Palm Society is taking on the liability of their content. No wonder they have to shut them down. If the mods stopped doing this and respected the fact that personal messages are indeed personal and none of their business, then the problem would be gone. Guarantee the privacy of private messages, and you are no more liable for their content than any phone company is for what their lines are used for.

Axel - again you are spouting off about something you do not know anything about - just as I explained to you in that PM earlier today about that other matter. It is becoming a habit. This PM situation has all been explained in the past - on more than one occasion. But I guess I have to do it again, since you are new here. No problem though, I'm bored and have plenty of time to burn.

When someone has their PMs set for email notification, they get an email that has the PM in it along with a big notice at the bottom in caps that says DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS EMAIL..........." and says to go to the PM system to respond. Well, many people never read that, they respond via the email. It happens all the time. When they do this, I get that email as a bounced error message. I read these because many times it has been very important to the person. Like, "I'll be at the airport to pick you up, don't worry. Just give me the time and gate." So I will take the time to alert this person that their important message did not make it to the person who was expecting it, or I will forward it myself to the person to which it was intended. I do it as a favor. Nobody is snooping, or wants to "snoop on messages." You must think I walk neighborhoods peeping in people's windows too.

If you don't want your email/PM read, then follow the instructions - they will remain private to my eyes. But that doesn't mean a hacker or law enforcement will do the same. As I have said numerous times, and it has been all over the news lately - nothing you send electronically should be considered private anymore - end of story. But don't accuse the Mods of snooping or monitoring PMs when you have no proof, nor could you ever find any. It is simply a flat out falsehood, and I (and the other Mods) would appreciate an apology.

Axel,

Really? It's VERY obvious that Dean has been under a lot of stress lately, underpaid IMO and would be un-replaceable if he were to leave. Man up with what appears to be a legit apology.

Oh, didn't you promise us all awhile back that you were not happy about this forum and were leaving for good? Only to return the next day......

[_Keith]

So, you want to criticize, second guess, or become a board member. This is not about a reaction to PT or its existence. It is not about PM, or IM, or anything like that. It is about sustainability and evolution of an organization. Read, and not just the latest thread, or even two or three. Educate yourself. State your platform for the continuation of the organization, not just a part of it, for the whole of it. Quit reacting and get proactive. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO HELP? It is not all about Palmtalk?

I am going to post this in every related thread.

Keith,

OK, we get it!

Sorry Jeff. IPS and PT can illicit a combination of passion and frustration for me. Certain post tend to get to me, as I am guessing from the preceding post, they get to you as well. I was only hoping to get one or two people to look at a bigger picture, and rather than complain, figure out how to help, as opposed to running off to another forum.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

The Board really needs to see sincere, common sense comments like Cindy's above.

However, I see a lot of false accusations, such as some board members not having email access, and a mountain of misinformation being spewed here on PT. I'm still traveling, but when I get back I'll take the time to help set the story straight. (slap you around a little!!)

I hear the Board is "getting the message" but a workable solution is not yet in hand. With Dean and Len on point for this, I feel confident a reasonable resolution will materialize.

It is really good to see how many of you really value PalmTalk, just as I do.

Kim, is there a place where one can read the bios of the existing BODs? I just don't know many but would like to read how each would describe themselves.

And special thanks to Peter/sur4z, Lee, and David/Alicehunter for nominating me, I am deeply appreciative that you stepped up for me.

Cheers,

Kim

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

So, you want to criticize, second guess, or become a board member. This is not about a reaction to PT or its existence. It is not about PM, or IM, or anything like that. It is about sustainability and evolution of an organization. Read, and not just the latest thread, or even two or three. Educate yourself. State your platform for the continuation of the organization, not just a part of it, for the whole of it. Quit reacting and get proactive. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO HELP? It is not all about Palmtalk?

I am going to post this in every related thread.

Keith,

OK, we get it!

Sorry Jeff. IPS and PT can illicit a combination of passion and frustration for me. Certain post tend to get to me, as I am guessing from the preceding post, they get to you as well. I was only hoping to get one or two people to look at a bigger picture, and rather than complain, figure out how to help, as opposed to running off to another forum.

Be careful, Keith, you might get nominated. :-)

[Jeff Searle]

So, you want to criticize, second guess, or become a board member. This is not about a reaction to PT or its existence. It is not about PM, or IM, or anything like that. It is about sustainability and evolution of an organization. Read, and not just the latest thread, or even two or three. Educate yourself. State your platform for the continuation of the organization, not just a part of it, for the whole of it. Quit reacting and get proactive. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO HELP? It is not all about Palmtalk?

I am going to post this in every related thread.

Keith,

OK, we get it!

Sorry Jeff. IPS and PT can illicit a combination of passion and frustration for me. Certain post tend to get to me, as I am guessing from the preceding post, they get to you as well. I was only hoping to get one or two people to look at a bigger picture, and rather than complain, figure out how to help, as opposed to running off to another forum.

Keith,

No apologies needed. I just worry that another thread gets locked again. Your views are being noticed I'm sure and passion for many of us are at an all time high. And I would hate to see you, or anyone else leave this forum. NOW go back to growing those mators....

[HorsesnPalms]

After reading this thread and realizing I had just been putting off joining, no reason, just haven't. I went and joined IPS.

I work in the web hosting industry. I know how much it costs to run a forum as large as this one. It is not cheap and the larger it gets that more money it will cost, just for hosting, server space, bandwidth, software, etc. Beyond that moderating will become a two to three person job and of course, they have to be paid. No one should work for free, and moderating a big forum is a load of work. That no one will ever fully understand, unless they know how its done "behind the scenes". Palm talk is a luxury for all palm lovers, its a great place to learn about palms. The education value alone is worth 100 times the membership fee per year! There isn't another forum that is as active and "clean" as this one. I have looked, I have been to the other forums, they do not come close to Palm Talk. While I do understand that not everyone that visits the forum will want to purchase a membership. Maybe they just purchased a palm at Home Depot and need help with it. Then you never hear from them again. That is fine, but it still brings a new person in. A chance that they will get that palm bug and purchase a membership, but those chances are slim for some surfers. There will then be some that cannot afford the yearly membership. So perhaps a monthly forum fee for those people would be in order. I know that its crazy if you cannot afford the $45 why would you pay say $5 a month for just the forum without a membership? Because that is how people are, they see that cheap $5 month and say yea I can do that. Then you end up having people paying $60 a year for something they could have gotten for $45. Then if they decide they don't want it, oh well you still got paid for the time they were here. The goal would be to never lose money, free is great everyone knows that, but nothing is free. Someone is paying somewhere and in this case is IPS. So my suggestion is to offer monthly options for non-IPS members, with a 14-day money back guarantee. Then for IPS members offer locked forums, specials, etc that are open only to members. Making it much more likely you'd end up getting a new IPS member after a number of months, which is just extra money on top of what was already made from that visitor.

Would I have paid the first time I came to Palm talk. Yes, I would have paid $5 per month, because I was a newbie, I would not be losing anything if I decided it wasn't for me. Its simple marketing, newbies are much less likely to pay $45, but are easily persuaded to pay $5.

Also, palm donations for online auctions. Many of us cannot make it to palm sales, some are too far away or cannot get off work. So palm auctions are the way to go. Members could donate palms to the sale. Then ship them directly to the winner at the end of the auction. Funds would all be paid to IPS. Its an easy way to raise money and less work, since you never have to touch the product. Its all done by the donator. I have seen this done a lot for fundraisers for different charities online and its always been a success.

Just my thoughts, but I am happy I joined IPS today.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Well, my PM ability has already been disabled. Hmmm, I guess it really is time to move on. I now have no more reasons to stay on PalmTalk. I wish all of you the best of luck. I'll put my E-mail on my profile if anyone wants to reach me.

[Milos Srejic]

No more PM's?

[Grasswing]

Thanks,

I wanted just to save some of my messages.

bye palmtalk

[Grasswing]

Why didn't you just announce some time when this ability will be shut down??

[KennyRE317]

wow they sure took the PMs away quick

[palmsrgreat]

Disappointing as I too had messages and contacts I would have like to kept.

what a shame.

[_Keith]

As would I. It might have been better to leave it up, but just without the ability to send new messages.

[Cindy Adair]

I hadn't even logged on to Palmtalk after work today. I knew I had an unanswered PM in my email inbox that I had neglected. Then when I tried to answer it I got nowhere. So then I read the recent posts.

When I clicked on the notifications icon I got a list of conversations. When I click on the date, the entry appears. So I'm unable to answer a conversation, but still have my archives, at least the recent ones.

Well, my email to the Board will go to higher priority now I guess. I'm still hoping PMs will work again until we have a chance to converse and understand more.

[Cindy Adair]

By the way, normally I'd PM the rest of the Palmtalk committee right away, but of course that's no longer an option..... So I have no idea if they know yet. I will look for their emails and go from there and I'm sure they'll log on soon and update us.

[PALM MOD]

I agree guys - but I was directed this morning to turn it off immediately, for the third time. I have tried to explain to everyone that doing so could have unintended consequences. I was hoping it would keep what was there in place - but it did not. And I have no idea how it will impact the the reporting system, the automated welcome messages for the new members, and other automated messaging. In addition, the PT Committee can no longer carry out conversations and discuss business in what was a very convenient venue. And I don't know if turning it back on will bring back what has been lost.

Be assured, I am also quite displeased that I no longer have my eight year record of correspondence and history. But I grew tired of arguing and trying to explain to everyone why I did not want to turn the PM system off. The only option was on or off. It needs to be understood that everything here is integrated into a very complex system that makes things convenient for us all, and that we take for granted. Mess with one moving part, and others are affected.

[Cindy Adair]

Thanks Dean. I'm so sorry about all that you are dealing with. I guess I will add my email to my personal information and delete it later if we get some sort of PM capability back. It's way too awkward for us to communicate on an open forum.

[PALM MOD]

Just out of interest, I went through the the first 62 pages of 248 pages (so 1/4) of the Palmtalk Members list and noted how many forum members were also IPS members.

The answer was interesting:

64 people in the first 1/4 were members, which if taken as a reasonable representative sample (this would be a massive sample in a newspaper poll), then you could extrapolate that 256 forum members are also IPS members.

So at $45 per year membership dues x 256 you get the grand total of $11520, or $320 more than the budgeteted allowance for running Palmtalk as provided by the IPS.

Which means that if the primary reason for those forum members joining the IPS was due to the interest in and use of Palmtalk (which I suspect in the majority of cases would be true) then Palmtalk is actually turning a modest proffit!

I know that its probably beside the point, and that the issue is PM's, but it is a compelling argument for maintaining forum members rights to use the board as it currently exists.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Let me remind everyone that you can carry on all you want here (and please do), but the vast majority of Directors will never read it. That is the crux of the problem and with my frustration when trying to do what I think is best. If you want to be sure the Directors read your thoughts, send them a copy via email.

As would I. It might have been better to leave it up, but just without the ability to send new messages.

Couldn't agree more - but not an option.

[dalmatiansoap]

One tehnical Q for Dean if possible? Are our conversations saved somewhere on server? Once when all this became a bad memory and message service returned will we get old stuff back? Just a question

[Perito]

Under the present circumstances, I won't renew with the IPS. It's not just what was done, but the way it was done. Perhaps it is time to form a new organization devoted to Palm hobbyists. Anyone interested in the World Palm Society?

[_Keith]

Under the present circumstances, I won't renew with the IPS. It's not just what was done, but the way it was done. Perhaps it is time to form a new organization devoted to Palm hobbyists. Anyone interested in the World Palm Society?

I agree with you on the way it was done. It wreaked of "sneaky." When a membership is involved, soliciting input from the membership prior to making these kinds of decisions is the proper thing to do, and allowing time for the change to take effect, is just a decent thing to do, as well.

HOWEVER, rather than deciding not to stay, I took the opposite road and actually re-upped my membership. This is still the best thing going. It needs some changes granted, but MEMBERS PAY to have a voice and they need to be heard. Rather than bolt, stay and be heard, my friend.

[PALM MOD]

One tehnical Q for Dean if possible? Are our conversations saved somewhere on server? Once when all this became a bad memory and message service returned will we get old stuff back? Just a question

Technical Answer - I don't know. I am trying to get permission to turn it back on and attempt to at least enable members of the PT Committee to discuss the business of PT here. And if I get permission, I would know as soon as I turn it back on if the data is still there. But I would immediately have to prohibit everyone else from using or seeing it.

Be assured, I am acting on your behalf to try and salvage the situation. You have no idea how much info that I depended on to moderate users that I no longer have access to. To all those who said losing PMs would be no big deal - think again.