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_Keith

B. afredii Zone 9a Hardy?

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Xhoniwaters1

My 3' alfredii 5gallon size showing discoloration @ a dry 21deg unprotected. 50/50 chance it's dead--will know for sure in a couple of weeks or so. Either way will plant another one, 15 gal or larger next time.

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Brahea Axel

And 20 at my house, so we will get a feel for how those B. alfredii will do. But they were young, and not established, so I did take some steps to protect them a bit. I covered them, well at least the growing points with Oak Leaves, and then threw a blanket over the top. That might get them another 5 degree hedge, but they will still see 25 easily tonight. Last night they saw 26 degrees unprotected. And they had already seen 31, 31, and 30 this year. It has been a chilly one, so they will get their Zone 9a test right in my yard.

Your forecast is 24F, if it doesn't get any lower you'll be fine. One of my alfredii is in my cold pit in the lower garden as a test, it was 26F at 6 feet, and probably quite a bit colder at 2 feet height given the intense inversion cold. It was below freezing for the entire night, and it did that 5 nights in a row. Yet not a trace of damage. I mean nothing at all, the thing looks perfect even after 5 weeks of mid 70's to low 80's.

The six footer I planted in my upper garden where it only got to 31F was opening a new leaf right as the cold passed through. That leaf has a tiny, tiny hint of injury from 31F as it has fully opened now. I can't get that thing to stop growing, it's pushing yet another leaf out followed by a new spear. Faster than my parajubaea.

Moral of the story: you don't want fresh growth exposed to cold, even 32F, but the older growth is easily hardy to the mid 20's if not more provided there's no frost forming on the leaves.

My forecast for last night was 26 and we pretty much got there. My forecast for tonight is 20, and it is pretty sure we will get there as it is already 28 prior to midnight. My forecast for tomorrow night is again, 26.

Looks like the Wunderground forecast I quoted was more correct. You didn't get that cold.

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_Keith

And 20 at my house, so we will get a feel for how those B. alfredii will do. But they were young, and not established, so I did take some steps to protect them a bit. I covered them, well at least the growing points with Oak Leaves, and then threw a blanket over the top. That might get them another 5 degree hedge, but they will still see 25 easily tonight. Last night they saw 26 degrees unprotected. And they had already seen 31, 31, and 30 this year. It has been a chilly one, so they will get their Zone 9a test right in my yard.

Your forecast is 24F, if it doesn't get any lower you'll be fine. One of my alfredii is in my cold pit in the lower garden as a test, it was 26F at 6 feet, and probably quite a bit colder at 2 feet height given the intense inversion cold. It was below freezing for the entire night, and it did that 5 nights in a row. Yet not a trace of damage. I mean nothing at all, the thing looks perfect even after 5 weeks of mid 70's to low 80's.

The six footer I planted in my upper garden where it only got to 31F was opening a new leaf right as the cold passed through. That leaf has a tiny, tiny hint of injury from 31F as it has fully opened now. I can't get that thing to stop growing, it's pushing yet another leaf out followed by a new spear. Faster than my parajubaea.

Moral of the story: you don't want fresh growth exposed to cold, even 32F, but the older growth is easily hardy to the mid 20's if not more provided there's no frost forming on the leaves.

My forecast for last night was 26 and we pretty much got there. My forecast for tonight is 20, and it is pretty sure we will get there as it is already 28 prior to midnight. My forecast for tomorrow night is again, 26.

Looks like the Wunderground forecast I quoted was more correct. You didn't get that cold.

I laughed about that this morning when I saw the actual low. Said to myself, I guess Axel was right after all.

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Alicehunter2000

Axel...what is my weather going to be tonight?

post-97-0-17925300-1389134507_thumb.jpg

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Brahea Axel

Axel...what is my weather going to be tonight?

attachicon.gifcrystal-ball.jpg

Let me see, when I look into the crystal ball, I see... wait... I see ... more palms. Oh, wait, there's something else, must be some new exotic palm washingtonia brownusii, because the leaves have this interesting golden brown color...wait, wait, ... and I see them green again.... :)

Well, lets see about the weather. First place I look is Wunderground, when I put in your town, it comes up with http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=Seacrest+Beach%2C+Florida, and it's already 30F there as of right now. The dewpoint is 4F. Without the cloud cover and no wind, the bottom is 4F, with a little wind you go to 20F, but because there is Cloudcover and the Sat shows a steady stream of it coming up from the South, you'll probably bottom out in the low 20's unless the dew points go up.

I can't find the actual NWS forecast discussion, that might shed some light on the patterns. My guess is the temps might rebound before the night is over because the pattern shifts and warmer air pushes East or Northeast.

The National Weather Service seems to agree on the freeze, but the warning is probably for the entire area, not just the beach.

315 PM EST TUE JAN 7 2014 /215 PM CST TUE JAN 7 2014/

...HARD FREEZE WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM 7 PM EST /6 PM CST/

THIS EVENING TO 11 AM EST /10 AM CST/ WEDNESDAY...

* MINIMUM TEMPERATURES...19 TO 21 DEGREES. OVERALL DURATION OF

FREEZING TEMPERATURES WILL BE 12 TO 16 HOURS.

* IMPACTS...THE DURATION AND INTENSITY OF THESE COLD TEMPERATURES

CAN POSE A DANGER TO EXPOSED PIPES...PLANTS...OUTDOOR PETS...AND

PEOPLE WHO LACK ADEQUATE SHELTER.

PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS...

A HARD FREEZE WARNING MEANS SUB-FREEZING TEMPERATURES ARE

IMMINENT OR HIGHLY LIKELY.

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palmsnbananas

Yup only got down to 25 for me, 19-20 was predicted.

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Brahea Axel

Finally found the forecast discussion, increasing cloud cover and a change in low level flow will keep the bottom from falling out. 25F to 28F will be as low as you get. Should hold steady after midnight.

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_Keith

Finally found the forecast discussion, increasing cloud cover and a change in low level flow will keep the bottom from falling out. 25F to 28F will be as low as you get. Should hold steady after midnight.

And tomorrow we begin the path back to normal. Hopefully this is winter's last hurrah.

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Brahea Axel

Finally found the forecast discussion, increasing cloud cover and a change in low level flow will keep the bottom from falling out. 25F to 28F will be as low as you get. Should hold steady after midnight.

And tomorrow we being the path back to normal. Hopefully this is winter's last hurrah.

The medium term forecasts are talking about the rainy season finally starting towards Jan 20th here in California. Boy do we need the rain!

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_Keith

Finally found the forecast discussion, increasing cloud cover and a change in low level flow will keep the bottom from falling out. 25F to 28F will be as low as you get. Should hold steady after midnight.

And tomorrow we being the path back to normal. Hopefully this is winter's last hurrah.

The medium term forecasts are talking about the rainy season finally starting towards Jan 20th here in California. Boy do we need the rain!

What does it say about the gulf south?

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Brahea Axel

Finally found the forecast discussion, increasing cloud cover and a change in low level flow will keep the bottom from falling out. 25F to 28F will be as low as you get. Should hold steady after midnight.

And tomorrow we being the path back to normal. Hopefully this is winter's last hurrah.

The medium term forecasts are talking about the rainy season finally starting towards Jan 20th here in California. Boy do we need the rain!

What does it say about the gulf south?

Looks like plain average Louisiana Winter weather, no freezes in sight. The pattern is finally shifting.

For any concerns for the next 12 hours, check out http://www.nws.noaa.gov/view/prodsByState.php?state=la&prodtype=discussion#AFDLCH, you'll see it says the air will moderate after midnight, so your garden probably won't get that cold.

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_Keith

We traditionally get our coldest weather from late December to mid-January. Most years, freezes are done by first of February, and frost by mid February. But last year we got sucker punched, 10a all winter, then a freeze, our only real freeze of the year, in March after everything was in full spring growth. That hurt things worst than a normal winter does.

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Tropicdoc

come on Keith! What about the Alfies? Dead?

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_Keith

come on Keith! What about the Alfies? Dead?

No dead, yet, even after the 3 big freezes, but they aren't very happy about life at the moment.

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Alicehunter2000

Any protection?

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_Keith

Any protection?

Yes, I banked them with Oak leaves nearly to the top, threw a blanket over them, and put a big nursery pot over the top of that. They were a gift, young, and had only been in the ground here 3 months. I had to give them a fighting chance.

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Gallop

Keith, B afedii is hardly a 9a hardy palm. I started with a nice 15gal from Jeff S. it didn't make a mild winter much less one like were having. A bunch of hype kinda like C. alba killed many of these plated out with 4ft of trunk all died when they saw 24˚F

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_Keith

Keith, B afedii is hardly a 9a hardy palm. I started with a nice 15gal from Jeff S. it didn't make a mild winter much less one like were having. A bunch of hype kinda like C. alba killed many of these plated out with 4ft of trunk all died when they saw 24˚F

I am not disagreeing with you. I just don't know, and since I get to try for free, well why not. There is both genetic variation and Zone 9a variation to consider. We had our worst winter since 1989 this year. Mine are under high Live Oak canopy on the south side of my home. A slight hedege. Maybe we'll get another 20 year run, maybe they'll get toasted next year. The fun is in the try.

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Brahea Axel

Keith, B afedii is hardly a 9a hardy palm. I started with a nice 15gal from Jeff S. it didn't make a mild winter much less one like were having. A bunch of hype kinda like C. alba killed many of these plated out with 4ft of trunk all died when they saw 24˚F

Why don't you add this info to the freeze hardiness section?

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-83717100-1391377399_thumb.jpg

Paul, I don't have to tell you what kind of winter we have had. The only thing I can say is that I put an open beach tent over it so the ice didn't get into the bud area. Other than that, it has been fully exposed. C. alba is doing pretty good and the spear and growing point fronds are still nice and tight. Maybe the alba you tried before is from a different area. There has been some discussion between Ken Johnson and I about the Caribbean vs. South American forms of C. alba....with the South American form being hardier.

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Sutter Bob

We're probably far enough through our cold season that I can comment a bit more on observations for this winter.

I'm presumably 9a with 9b microclimates.

B. alfredii is definitely on the border here.

Two small specimens with frost protection appear to have made it through another winter (at least three winters now). They look ok.

A larger specimen planted last spring in an open position has almost completely defoliated but the spear looks fine.

As far as C. alba, a seedling in the open didn't make it through last winter. I replaced it with a Brahea clara last spring - that one's doing fine.

Would like to try C. alba again with a little cover some time.

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Palmə häl′ik

Reading all this is kinda funny because i knew all this three years ago...

B.alfredi is a zone 10 palm

Not frost tolerant.

Ive lost over a dozen of these in the last four years... Ive got one left. Not exposed to frost where its planted BTW

-Ray.

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Ben in Norcal

This is an interesting thread because B. Alfredi seems to always be talked about as a 9b palm, going down to 25. I have seedlings in the ground here as of last summer, and they weathered our early December cold (down to 27ish) pretty well. I'm getting a 15g soon so I am hoping they have a better chance than Ray's post would seem to suggest. Perhaps there is a difference in more humid climates where frost is more pervasive here than in Norcal? Hopefully?

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Brahea Axel

We're probably far enough through our cold season that I can comment a bit more on observations for this winter.

I'm presumably 9a with 9b microclimates.

B. alfredii is definitely on the border here.

Two small specimens with frost protection appear to have made it through another winter (at least three winters now). They look ok.

A larger specimen planted last spring in an open position has almost completely defoliated but the spear looks fine.

As far as C. alba, a seedling in the open didn't make it through last winter. I replaced it with a Brahea clara last spring - that one's doing fine.

Would like to try C. alba again with a little cover some time.

Alfredii is definitely a 9b palm, not a 9a palm based on the reports I've seen on PalmTalk. I've got specimens growing in both my USDA 10a thermal belt slope and the lower garden with is probably closer to 9b. Not a single one got harmed from the cold last December, and we had a whopper of a freeze featuring 5 days of cold with 10 hours below freezing in the lower garden where it got to 26.6F.

I have a large 15 gallon alba I put into the ground fully exposed, it did not get harmed by the cold either. However, a potted seedling purchased in Socal and sitting up in my outdoor nursery which is in the thermal belt saw 33F at worst. No frost damage, but a steady decline from the cold up to now. However, an even smaller seedling from Floribunda looks perfect even though it was exposed to the same conditions.

I am convinced that many palms do much better if planted out as bigger specimens in marginal climates. But based on the seedlings I have, there's obviously a difference in cold tolerance in the strains floating around so it's alway worth trying multiple times until you get the right specimen.

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Palmə häl′ik

They will take the cold.

Its the frost they dont recover from.....

Im not one to believe theres a 9a palm and 9b palm.... Theres z9, and z10, and then you have 'microclimates' in each therefore allowing a 'zone push'

- Ray.

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Palmə häl′ik

Keep the frost off, and it will stay alive.

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Jeff Searle

David,

You stated in post #60 that you and Ken were discussing what's more hardier, the Caribbean form or South American form of Copernicia alba. You two might want to read your palm books , because Copernicia alba is a South American species only. :) It's not found anywhere in the Caribbean. Or maybe I misunderstood what you wrote.

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Brahea Axel

David,

You stated in post #60 that you and Ken were discussing what's more hardier, the Caribbean form or South American form of Copernicia alba. You two might want to read your palm books , because Copernicia alba is a South American species only. :) It's not found anywhere in the Caribbean. Or maybe I misunderstood what you wrote.

Bingo! Couldn't find any reference to a Carribean form either. If the leaves are green underneath instead of silver and there's no glaucous coat, it's not copernicia alba. The "alba" is named for the white undersides of the leaves.

Copernicia_alba.jpg

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palm tree man

I have a B alfredii in the ground in zone 9a. This year we experienced one of our freak cold events but I am in Coastal Georgia and we didn't experience any snow or ice. The B. alfredii is a one gallon plant and it has been in the ground since September. It saw no damage at all until around 24, I am convinced if protected in a favorable spot in a good microclimate that it could be grown by hobbyist. It might require too much special attention for the average gardener during cold spells. However it is still alive and did see around 19 to 20 degrees as a small plant with only a blanket to protect it. It is a fairly tough palm it appears. Hopefully it will prove to bounce back well after damage because it is really a beautiful palm.

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Alicehunter2000

Welcome Palm Tree Man.....thanks for posting your experience with this species. Hope you stick around and post more often.

Hey Jeff, yes we were discussing the same thing in another thread. Axle believes that the palm I got from Ken is a different species. I really hope this palm puts out some new fronds so that I can get a closeup ofthe color.....definitely green. Keep hoping Ken will chime in, he mentioned some discussion where different forms were theorized. I claim virtually no knowledge on Copernicia sp.

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_Keith

3 big freezes later, here is where mine stand, after a hellacious winter that may still yet have one big freeze left in it.

They are all non too happy about life. Keep in mind that they are banked with leaves. The growing point is underneath and hopefully still healthy.

#1 - This is the largest one.

post-1207-0-52457900-1391477753_thumb.jp

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mnorell

I learned years ago at my place in Natchez that this species is not reliably hardy in zone 9a. Its foliage burns mid-20s and though it might return, it is very slow-growing and eventually gives up with yearly hard freezes. I have tried both what was purchased as B. alfredii (tried a couple of times) and also what was sold as "no windows." The latter survived a few years but 2010 killed it in a protected spot. I have tried many Madagascans and the there are only two that I have had take it on the chin and return every year: Ravenea glauca and Dypsis madagascariensis 'Mahajanga.' They are champs, at least as long as their buds are below soil-level. Those have made it through three straight days of freezing temps on multiple occasions (2010 and 2011, and now hopefully surviving this latest insult in 2014), and though they defoliate, they come roaring back in spring. Not so with the Beccariophoenix. Even Dypsis decipiens burns in low 20s and I have managed to kill it twice (I believe both times by stepping on it as it was coming back!). Am on my third D. decipiens presently in the Mississippi torture chamber, which is probably right now well-toasted after 18F and once again, three days below freezing. And if you want a coconut-like palm in 9a or low 9b, ditch the Beccariophoenix and stick with the xButyagrus! I have at least a half-dozen mules in Natchez and I am getting reports that they are in perfect condition after all of this. They grow like weeds and must be the most satisfying palm I've grown in that climate.

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Brahea Axel

#4

Most of your alfrediis don't look bad at all given what they've endured. I guess you still need to wait to see how they fare once exposed to some real heat, that's when the damage will show up.

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palm tree man

It is nice to know that the rest of the Southeast experienced the same joy that we did in Coastal Georgia. How did everyone's B. Alfredii hold up? Any new growth now that it has warmed back up and is back to business as usually again? Any spear browning or pulled spears? I am new to the forum but have grown palms for over twenty years and have a commercial landscape cycad nursery, so I am no guru or expert but I am also not a total nub either. :) Hope everyone is doing well this evening. Thank you for your time and responses. Sorry Alice Hunter, I didn't see your welcome. I sincerely appreciate it and I dig your name that is pretty cool. My wife came up with mine for me when I got tired of studying The Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms 1st ed with my daughter and she recommended that I join a discussion group or forum like she did for Disney World. I have ten Butia x Syagrus and they never skip a beat and one of Tim Hopper's Xjubutyagrus that has been in the ground for three years and it is seemingly teflon coated here. Butias are of course everywhere and have been grown in my area for over a hundred years as far as I know. I saved a seventy year old plant from being bulldozed last year and gave it a safe home. Has anyone grown Jubeasopsis Caffra; I had ten that I grew from seed and sold all of them but one. After much research it might be a good cocos substitute here, if protection is given during the harshest winters. They are hard to come by and expensive but to me they are the most beautiful cocos substitute but really no substitute at all but something more extravagant in many ways. Does anyone have any experience with the Pondoland palm?

Daniel

Edited by palm tree man

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Tropicdoc

Welcome Daniel. I have a two foot jubaeopsis that looks like it will live through this hell of a winter. I covered it for the excursion to 23.

Keith, the alfies look better than I thought they would! Get some copper on those things soon!

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Tropicdoc

The alfies actually look better than my jubaeopsis.

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_Keith

It is nice to know that the rest of the Southeast experienced the same joy that we did in Coastal Georgia. How did everyone's B. Alfredii hold up? Any new growth now that it has warmed back up and is back to business as usually again? Any spear browning or pulled spears? I am new to the forum but have grown palms for over twenty years and have a commercial landscape cycad nursery, so I am no guru or expert but I am also not a total nub either. :) Hope everyone is doing well this evening. Thank you for your time and responses. Sorry Alice Hunter, I didn't see your welcome. I sincerely appreciate it and I dig your name that is pretty cool. My wife came up with mine for me when I got tired of studying The Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms 1st ed with my daughter and she recommended that I join a discussion group or forum like she did for Disney World. I have ten Butia x Syagrus and they never skip a beat and one of Tim Hopper's Xjubutyagrus that has been in the ground for three years and it is seemingly teflon coated here. Butias are of course everywhere and have been grown in my area for over a hundred years as far as I know. I saved a seventy year old plant from being bulldozed last year and gave it a safe home. Has anyone grown Jubeasopsis Caffra; I had ten that I grew from seed and sold all of them but one. After much research it might be a good cocos substitute here, if protection is given during the harshest winters. They are hard to come by and expensive but to me they are the most beautiful cocos substitute but really no substitute at all but something more extravagant in many ways. Does anyone have any experience with the Pondoland palm?

Daniel

Probably the greatest reward of gardening in the South is character development. The Southern gardener, if he survives, will acquire patience, humility, stoicism, and irrepressible optimism in the face of devastating odds. The climate in Dixie is notoriously capricious, and in recent years almost every month has been a record breaker - the coldest January; the wettest April, and the hottest and driest August. - William Nathanial Banks.

No, he did not write that this year, lol.

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