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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

sabal yapa

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

I planted a 3 footer in my lower garden this Summer, it's fully frost exposed where it's planted. After reading the hardiness entry for it, wondering if I should move it under some place where it can get some overhead canopy protection.

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Phoenikakias

Mine died easily during the advection frost back in 2004 although protected under dense canopy.

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Mine died easily during the advection frost back in 2004 although protected under dense canopy.

I ended up replanting under dense canopy, I won't get too attached to it. It already had some secondary cold damage from last Winter in Southern California. It might not be the best choice for my climate but it was real cheap for a 15g plant.

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MattyB

Yapa is cool. Can we see a picture of it? I think I can tell the difference between yapa and mauritiaformis now.

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Phoenikakias

Yapa is cool. Can we see a picture of it? I think I can tell the difference between yapa and mauritiaformis now.

Which is which in this picture?

post-6141-0-09931900-1380829961_thumb.jp

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SanDimas

Yapa leaflets are green colored on top and bottom.

Mauritiformis is silvery blue at bottom.

:greenthumb:yea :greenthumb:

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

I'll post a picture tomorrow, but for what it's worth, mine looks identical to the one in post #11 of this thread: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/25667-sabal-yapa/

In this thread, Matt in SD says:

"Yapa has a more costapalmate leaf, and it seems to have a stiffer texture. The middle two leaf segments are angled so that the upper surfaces are at a acute (<90 degree) angle to each other. With mauritiiformis, the leaf is much more flat. "

Both the picture and this description above match.

In this thread, Tala's comment in #9 has me the most puzzled: he claims there are two distinct forms of yapa, and both are hardier and slower than mauritiformis. All the other references I have found all say the opposite, namely yapa is faster than mauritiformis and mauritiformis is actually a bit hardier than yapa. So far, this yapa is faster than my mauritiformis by a long shot.

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Sabal Steve

All i know is that my Yapa grows like a snail compared to my Mauritiformis. Not sure which yapa it is yet. There is a bluish tinge in the underside of my yapa.

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sonoranfans

mauritiiformis has white underside of the leaflets, reminds me of archontophoenix alexandre in the white undersides. Here is my maurifiiformis. I do not find this a fast sabal. this one I got from Ken Johnson two plus years ago. It grows ~1' overall per year so far. this palm gets lots of attention from those gardeners who do not know palms, they love the tropical look. It doesn't like wind and finally some of the windbreak growing around it is protecting it.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

mauritiiformis has white underside of the leaflets, reminds me of archontophoenix alexandre in the white undersides. Here is my maurifiiformis. I do not find this a fast sabal. this one I got from Ken Johnson two plus years ago. It grows ~1' overall per year so far. this palm gets lots of attention from those gardeners who do not know palms, they love the tropical look. It doesn't like wind and finally some of the windbreak growing around it is protecting it.

That's a nice and healthy looking palm, I love the looks of it and I have one in the ground, but here in California 1'/year would be considered lightning fast. How hardy has mauritiformis been for you?

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sonoranfans

mauritiiformis has white underside of the leaflets, reminds me of archontophoenix alexandre in the white undersides. Here is my maurifiiformis. I do not find this a fast sabal. this one I got from Ken Johnson two plus years ago. It grows ~1' overall per year so far. this palm gets lots of attention from those gardeners who do not know palms, they love the tropical look. It doesn't like wind and finally some of the windbreak growing around it is protecting it.

That's a nice and healthy looking palm, I love the looks of it and I have one in the ground, but here in California 1'/year would be considered lightning fast. How hardy has mauritiformis been for you?

Axel this palm hasn't seen below 29F yet so I don't know about the hardiness. Others in florida have seen as low as 26F and survived. My recollection is that below 26F can be a problem for survival, and longer durations at those temps have killed these palms. This one is also getting only part sun on the east side of the house with maple and magnolia trees nearby. It also gets modest watering from my irrigation system, it would be happier with more. I tried to fix it with micro sprinklers located nearby, but the system failed. Balancing pressures and irrigation rates with popup sprinklers and micro sprinklers has been a little tricky.

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Mandrew968

Guys, according to Dr. Larry Noblick, yapa leaflets end in no more than two segments together--Mauritiiformis has leaflet segments in four. I have no idea whether the color to the underside of the leaf is a valid identification method. Yapa in itself is a difficult palm to characterize; there are different forms here and there--to make matters harder, mauritiiformis has the widest distribution of any Sabal--that must mean there is variation among different populations. Yapa is reputed to be much more hardy to cold than mauritiiformis is...

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tank

Is S. yapa a cold hardy palm?

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Mandrew968

Jason, it's reputed to be almost as hardy as palmetto. When people like mauritiiformis but are too cold, Yapa is usually their second best choice--the former is not hardy below 28F.

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sonoranfans

here is a florida report on palms including sabal cold hardiness:
http://bizmark.8m.com/custom2.html

"SABAL sps : the native species (etonia, minor and palmetto) are obviously suitable for our area. The following group - causiarum, domingensis, bermudana, mexicana, rosei and uresana, were recorded as undamaged at temps ranging from 18f (S.causiarum in Gainesville) to 19f (S.domingensis, Orlando) to 22f (S.bermudana, S.mexicana and S.rosei, Daytona). S.uresana was undamaged @ 25f (Sebring) and most likely can tolerate much lower readings. There are two Caribbean species (S.mauritiiformis and S.yapa) and though not as hardy as the others they have been cultivated to mature status throughout most all of central Fla. Both species seem about equal in hardiness showing foliage damage around 26f (Orl.); mauritiiformis was defoliated @ 22f (Day.) and yapa was severely damaged @ 19f (Mel.) but without total defoliation."

Of course the length of cold will matter, but both of these sabals are good to 9b or perhaps 9a in the case of yapa.

When I was at ken johnsons farm, I saw both yapa and mauritiiformis, yapa is the bigger palm and did not have the whitish undersides of the leaflets. It may not be definitive, especially if plants are small or not established. But ken had quite a few mauritiiformis(6-7) and they all looked the same, light undersides of leaflets. the one yapa did not have this characteristic.

I do not consider the cold tolerance of seedlings as a real cold tolerance metric for a mature palm. If you have maturitiiformis seedlings, protect them, they likely will not take 28F even. Royals can be kidded at 28F as 5 gallon, but laugh at that temp as mature trees.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Mandrew968

here is a florida report on palms including sabal cold hardiness:

http://bizmark.8m.com/custom2.html

"SABAL sps : the native species (etonia, minor and palmetto) are obviously suitable for our area. The following group - causiarum, domingensis, bermudana, mexicana, rosei and uresana, were recorded as undamaged at temps ranging from 18f (S.causiarum in Gainesville) to 19f (S.domingensis, Orlando) to 22f (S.bermudana, S.mexicana and S.rosei, Daytona). S.uresana was undamaged @ 25f (Sebring) and most likely can tolerate much lower readings. There are two Caribbean species (S.mauritiiformis and S.yapa) and though not as hardy as the others they have been cultivated to mature status throughout most all of central Fla. Both species seem about equal in hardiness showing foliage damage around 26f (Orl.); mauritiiformis was defoliated @ 22f (Day.) and yapa was severely damaged @ 19f (Mel.) but without total defoliation."

Of course the length of cold will matter, but both of these sabals are good to 9b or perhaps 9a in the case of yapa.

When I was at ken johnsons farm, I saw both yapa and mauritiiformis, yapa is the bigger palm and did not have the whitish undersides of the leaflets. It may not be definitive, especially if plants are small or not established. But ken had quite a few mauritiiformis(6-7) and they all looked the same, light undersides of leaflets. the one yapa did not have this characteristic.

I frequent Ken's place and I don't agree with the names of his Sabals. Remember, Tom--Sabal yapa has different forms; There is a form of yapa that is certainly the smallest of the trunkers. There is also a large form of yapa with a trunk fairly similar to causiarum. Eric in Orlando says he has the large form at Leu. As far as cold is concerned--there are often too many variables to add a definitive temperature, but yapa is much more hardy to the cold.

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tank

Jason, it's reputed to be almost as hardy as palmetto. When people like mauritiiformis but are too cold, Yapa is usually their second best choice--the former is not hardy below 28F.

I have A BUNCH of S. palmetto at my house that were fine at temps down to 14F and have seen temps as low as 10F. I have a hard time thinking S. yapa is even close to this as far as hardiness.

Everything I've read says that it starts showing damage in the upper 20sF. One of the reasons I've never tried this one. I do think it is one of the most attractive sabals.

It just never occurred to me to consider this as a cold hardy palm, however you define cold hardy.

Edited by tank

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tank

I would be interested to her other reports of S. yapas cold tolerance from folks in central and north Florida that have experienced low and mid 20sF.

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Jason, it's reputed to be almost as hardy as palmetto. When people like mauritiiformis but are too cold, Yapa is usually their second best choice--the former is not hardy below 28F.

I have A BUNCH of S. palmetto at my house that were fine at temps down to 14F and have seen temps as low as 10F. I have a hard time thinking S. yapa is even close to this as far as hardiness.

Everything I've read says that it starts showing damage in the upper 20sF. One of the reasons I've never tried this one. I do think it is one of the most attractive sabals.

It just never occurred to me to consider this as a cold hardy palm, however you define cold hardy.

I concurr with Jason, everything I've read points to yapa definitely not being a 9a palm, and it doesn't even sound like a palm that would be free of cosmetic damage in a 10a zone like mine. The one I got clearly got cold damaged in last Winter's 27F Southern California freeze.

That's why I ended up moving mine under canopy. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves:

Entitre plant, it's very blue, hard to tell from the photo:

20131009_172846_zps7b436245.jpg

Glaucus undersides of the leaves:

20131009_172936_zps97e829f6.jpg

Frost/cold damage from last Winter:

20131009_172827_zpsc5048cd1.jpg

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

But rot from the cold:

20131009_172834_zps10189bec.jpg

As you can see, that thing barely started recovering from last Winter. This does not look like a cold tolerant palm to me.

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sonoranfans

Cold tolerance is meaningful for established palms, not seedlings. Axel your palm is obviously a seedling. And Im not sure what is going on with the bud rot at your place, but you have reported it on a dozen palms this summer haven't you? I remember a thread about overhead watering every 30 mins or something... I don't have a yapa and don't know if it is a 9a palm, but I don't put too much into the hardiness of seedlings when trying to evaluate mature palms. I had royal and foxtail seedlings die at 28F, but the established royals and foxtails all around my neighborhood barely blinked...

Edited by sonoranfans

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Mandrew968

But rot from the cold:

20131009_172834_zps10189bec.jpg

As you can see, that thing barely started recovering from last Winter. This does not look like a cold tolerant palm to me.

Looks like mauritiiformis to me--that's precisely the temp that they are supposed to show damage too.

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

Cold tolerance is meaningful for established palms, not seedlings. Axel your palm is obviously a seedling. And Im not sure what is going on with the bud rot at your place, but you have reported it on a dozen palms this summer haven't you? I remember a thread about overhead watering every 30 mins or something... I don't have a yapa and don't know if it is a 9a palm, but I don't put too much into the hardiness of seedlings when trying to evaluate mature palms. I had royal and foxtail seedlings die at 28F, but the established royals and foxtails all around my neighborhood barely blinked...

Tom, I bought this palm this August from Southern California, it came with the left over symptoms of bud rot, which I suspect occured last February after the freeze. It was a cheapie, and they are rather rare in this part of the country. No overhead water on this one, in fact, I treated it pre-emptively with lime sulfur even though it has no current symptoms of bud rot. Some good TLC and this guy should thrive under canopy.

Now just for sakes of definition, a seedling to me is something that still looks like grass. I'd call this particular specimen a juvenile. Cold tolerance is more meaningful for me for juveniles, not established palms. It has to get past juvenile stage first before it can actually become established.

But rot from the cold:

As you can see, that thing barely started recovering from last Winter. This does not look like a cold tolerant palm to me.

Looks like mauritiiformis to me--that's precisely the temp that they are supposed to show damage too.

I am pretty sure this is a yapa, I have mauritiformis, looks different, much greener. This one is very blue with glaucus blue undersides. It's a very nice palm.

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Mandrew968

" I am pretty sure this is a yapa, I have mauritiformis, looks different, much greener. This one is very blue with glaucus blue undersides. It's a very nice palm. "

That's all nice and sweet about colors, but that has nothing to do with the identification of the species. The pictures I see are of a Sabal mauritiiformis--look at the segments of the leaflets; they are held together in groups of 4 or more--Sabal yapa only holds max 2. You have a Sabal mauritiiformis, which is why it did not like your cold weather.

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

" I am pretty sure this is a yapa, I have mauritiformis, looks different, much greener. This one is very blue with glaucus blue undersides. It's a very nice palm. "

That's all nice and sweet about colors, but that has nothing to do with the identification of the species. The pictures I see are of a Sabal mauritiiformis--look at the segments of the leaflets; they are held together in groups of 4 or more--Sabal yapa only holds max 2. You have a Sabal mauritiiformis, which is why it did not like your cold weather.

Andrew, I think you may be right. Your comments prompted me to look this up in books instead of online. Most online sources appear to have switched yapa and mauritiformis. For example, for example, http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/215635/ or And as is evidenced by my own purchases, California nurseries seem to have these backwards as well.

Riffle's Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms unquestionably have listed yapa as the greener one with white undersides and 2-3 joined leaflet segments, (Plate 858) and mauritiformis being the bluer one with mosty fused segments and white undersides. (Plate 850).

The palm pictured above and labeled "sabal yapa" looks most closest to plate 850, and is apparently a sabal mauritiformis, and the palm I purchased as sabal mauritiformis looks exactly like plate 858 and is apparently a sabal yapa.

But in all honesty, even Riffle is not consistent. In his description, he claims yapa does not have the glaucus undersides, yet the picture clearly shows glaucus undersides. The specimen I have with the spokes wheel like leaves, i.e. only one to two fused leaflets has glaucus undersides, and so does the blue mauritiformis one.

Is it possible that there are varying forms of yapa and mauritiformis so that the species are truly distinguishable only via the flowers and fruit?

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sonoranfans

Cold tolerance is meaningful for established palms, not seedlings. Axel your palm is obviously a seedling. And Im not sure what is going on with the bud rot at your place, but you have reported it on a dozen palms this summer haven't you? I remember a thread about overhead watering every 30 mins or something... I don't have a yapa and don't know if it is a 9a palm, but I don't put too much into the hardiness of seedlings when trying to evaluate mature palms. I had royal and foxtail seedlings die at 28F, but the established royals and foxtails all around my neighborhood barely blinked...

Tom, I bought this palm this August from Southern California, it came with the left over symptoms of bud rot, which I suspect occured last February after the freeze. It was a cheapie, and they are rather rare in this part of the country. No overhead water on this one, in fact, I treated it pre-emptively with lime sulfur even though it has no current symptoms of bud rot. Some good TLC and this guy should thrive under canopy.

Now just for sakes of definition, a seedling to me is something that still looks like grass. I'd call this particular specimen a juvenile. Cold tolerance is more meaningful for me for juveniles, not established palms. It has to get past juvenile stage first before it can actually become established.

But rot from the cold:

As you can see, that thing barely started recovering from last Winter. This does not look like a cold tolerant palm to me.

Looks like mauritiiformis to me--that's precisely the temp that they are supposed to show damage too.

I am pretty sure this is a yapa, I have mauritiformis, looks different, much greener. This one is very blue with glaucus blue undersides. It's a very nice palm.

I would call it a seedling Axel. And if it had cold damage in a pot, that is a very different story as potted palms have less cold tolerance. Walt(near) Orlando has an established mauritiiformis I believe, and it has shown this supposed 28F cold tolerance.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/31839-sabal-mauritiiformis/ in post 10

from walts post:

"I have one Sabal mauritiiformis that I bought as a one gallon size in January of 2002. It's been a slow grower.

Because I thought it lacked cold hardiness I pot grew it for many years and would move it into my heated greenhouse on freezing, frosty nights. About 5-6 years ago I planted it in a more sheltered area of my property where it got some overhead canopy from a close growing Carolina cherry laurel.

To my surprise, and delight, it's gone through every winter without cold damage, other than what always seems to be winter time potassium deficiency on its oldest fronds. But by summer's end these yellowing fronds have been replaced."

So apparently walts mauritiiformis saw the winter of 2010 with no damage, his yard is 3-5 degrees colder than mine so his lows must have been ~24-25 degrees.

I would be interested in anyone who has an established mauritiiformis or yapa who has actually experienced mid 20's temps....

Edited by sonoranfans

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Mandrew968

Is it possible that there are varying forms of yapa and mauritiformis so that the species are truly distinguishable only via the flowers and fruit?

Axel, you are asking me about a palm I have never seen. Post a picture of the other palm and I will see if I can ID it for you. As for your question above, I told you the difference is in the leaflet tips and how fused they are--2 for yapa and 4 for mauritiiformis. As far as I know, color of the leaves is no indication one way or the other. I DO know that yapa is much more cold hardy than mauritiiformis.

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Mandrew968


So apparently walts mauritiiformis saw the winter of 2010 with no damage, his yard is 3-5 degrees colder than mine so his lows must have been ~24-25 degrees.

I would be interested in anyone who has an established mauritiiformis or yapa who has actually experienced mid 20's temps....

Tom, I doubt you will find anyone who has been able to take a Sabal mauritiiformis below 27F and have it still live--and if they have, I'll bet it's in actuality a yapa.

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Jonathan

Interesting. I've got small plants of both (theoretically - I'll have to check out the leaf segments).

I planted out the yapa's finally this autumn, after delaying for a few years worrying about frost damage.

They are planted with my palmetto's, minors, and other Sabals in a low lying frosty, but sunny hole at the very bottom of my low lying, frosty 9b property!

They got through winter lookin pretty good, although do have plastic gaurds around them (without tops) to reduce direct frost exposure.

Numerous mornings during the winter there was frost on the ground all around these palms.

I put the Sabals in the hole so they can hopefully access the water table quickly. I was surprised that the palmettos in particular pushed out leaves throughout the winter, which is when we get most of our rain.

Always thought they needed good heat to initiate growth?

My single mauritiiformis is in a much more shelered but shady spot and so far has shown no inclination to grow or die - a lazy palm.

It has seen -3C (under canopy, so no direct frost) without any damage that I can see. Maybe its not maurtiiformis.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Phoenikakias

In this latitude maybe a Sabal mauritiformis needs a sunnier location.

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Jonathan

Agreed - but sometimes given the choice between a sunny location or frost protection, I'd rather have a slow growing palm than a dead one.

Maybe as it gets bigger (if it ever does) I can open up some more light for it.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Phoenikakias

Agreed - but sometimes given the choice between a sunny location or frost protection, I'd rather have a slow growing palm than a dead one.

Maybe as it gets bigger (if it ever does) I can open up some more light for it.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Wise choice, it's the least price one has to pay in clearly temperate zones for trying more tropical palms :greenthumb: I suggest you try some lightly alkaline compost for this Sabal, it might accelerate it's growth speed...

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Jonathan

Good idea - I think I've read somewhere that Yucatan has limestone soil.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Ken Johnson

HUH? :hmm:

Sabal yapa is a real trouble maker aint it? I only know yapa from the palms at Fairchild. I assume all of our original seed came from them but some could be from the wild too with the way things used to fly around willy nilly. I have grown Sabal from time to time even though I know that the profit margin is slim because it takes a long time to grow and a long time to dig and it aint the fairest of them all. Even its lookalike cousin, mauritiiformis, is a space hog and not a good seller here on Every Square Inch Farm.

Here is a picture of a larger sized mauritiiformis for what it's worth....

post-50-0-75124200-1382009084_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

HUH? :hmm:

Sabal yapa is a real trouble maker aint it? I only know yapa from the palms at Fairchild. I assume all of our original seed came from them but some could be from the wild too with the way things used to fly around willy nilly. I have grown Sabal from time to time even though I know that the profit margin is slim because it takes a long time to grow and a long time to dig and it aint the fairest of them all. Even its lookalike cousin, mauritiiformis, is a space hog and not a good seller here on Every Square Inch Farm.

Here is a picture of a larger sized mauritiiformis for what it's worth....

Let the record show that I think this attractive palm is a yapa.

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Mauna Kea Cloudforest

HUH? :hmm:

Sabal yapa is a real trouble maker aint it? I only know yapa from the palms at Fairchild. I assume all of our original seed came from them but some could be from the wild too with the way things used to fly around willy nilly. I have grown Sabal from time to time even though I know that the profit margin is slim because it takes a long time to grow and a long time to dig and it aint the fairest of them all. Even its lookalike cousin, mauritiiformis, is a space hog and not a good seller here on Every Square Inch Farm.

Here is a picture of a larger sized mauritiiformis for what it's worth....

Let the record show that I think this attractive palm is a yapa.

You and Riffle are the only ones I know who think these palms are all yapa. Everyone else seems to think they are mauritiformis, and what I got labeled as yapa is actually yapa. So at this point I am not sure who to believe anymore.

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Sabal Steve

Yapa is cool. Can we see a picture of it? I think I can tell the difference between yapa and mauritiaformis now.

Which is which in this picture?

attachicon.gifDSC00001.JPG

Mauritiformis

  • Upvote 1

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Phoenikakias

Yapa is cool. Can we see a picture of it? I think I can tell the difference between yapa and mauritiaformis now.

Which is which in this picture?

attachicon.gifDSC00001.JPG

Mauritiformis

Of course! :greenthumb: How have you come to this result?

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Sabal Steve

Yapa is cool. Can we see a picture of it? I think I can tell the difference between yapa and mauritiaformis now.

Which is which in this picture?

attachicon.gifDSC00001.JPG

Mauritiformis

Of course! :greenthumb: How have you come to this result?

Truthfully, it just looks like more examples of the Mauritiformis that I have seen. I hear so much contradictory evidence concerning which palms have certain characteristics that I don't know anymore... Generally, I feel Yapa seems to be more fragile looking, and it seems that there are more divisions per leaf. Perhaps more deeply divided leaves as well? I haven't heard anything definitive regarding the leaf coloration (top or bottom). I have one of each, at least labeled as such from Jungle Music, and they both have a powdery, pastel looking underside. My experience is, that the Mauritiformis has been MUCH faster (although it started out as a bigger plant). They both like water, and I placed the Yapa directly into sun - it showed very slight stress, but looks like it has acclimated fine. The Maurit went into partial shade and had no problems.

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Sabal Steve

Yapa is cool. Can we see a picture of it? I think I can tell the difference between yapa and mauritiaformis now.

Which is which in this picture?

attachicon.gifDSC00001.JPG

Mauritiformis

Of course! :greenthumb: How have you come to this result?

Truthfully, it just looks like more examples of the Mauritiformis that I have seen. I hear so much contradictory evidence concerning which palms have certain characteristics that I don't know anymore... Generally, I feel Yapa seems to be more fragile looking, and it seems that there are more divisions per leaf. Perhaps more deeply divided leaves as well? I haven't heard anything definitive regarding the leaf coloration (top or bottom). I have one of each, at least labeled as such from Jungle Music, and they both have a powdery, pastel looking underside. My experience is, that the Mauritiformis has been MUCH faster (although it started out as a bigger plant). They both like water, and I placed the Yapa directly into sun - it showed very slight stress, but looks like it has acclimated fine. The Maurit went into partial shade and had no problems.

My Maurit is a pretty convincing specimen, where the Yapa is still young and open to debate... I'll post pictures sometime...

These are such beautiful and underused palms. I feel that they are not appreciated.

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