Superthrive

[_Keith]

17 hours ago, Hamal said:

Yes, Superthrive (or some of the other miracle fertilizers like Palmbooster) contain 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid (NAA), which is an auxin. It is a phytohormone that occurs naturally in plants and is generated in the leaves to signal the roots to grow faster, because the leaves do not receive enough nutrients. If you add this to your water and water your palms near the stem, the roots will take up this hormone and the palm will "think" the roots need to grow faster, which again makes the whole palm grow faster.

The secret that the sellers of these products do not want you to know is that you can buy just the active ingredient (NAA or IBA or IAA, they are equivalent) and achieve exactly the same for a fraction of the price. Also, you only need one application per growth season, ideally when the ground has warmed up enough (> 70F) and only two or three years after planting. For palms, you should use a solution with about 1 ppm of auxin for watering.

An intelligent answer.

[foxtail]

20 hours ago, Hamal said:

Yes, Superthrive (or some of the other miracle fertilizers like Palmbooster) contain 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid (NAA), which is an auxin. It is a phytohormone that occurs naturally in plants and is generated in the leaves to signal the roots to grow faster, because the leaves do not receive enough nutrients. If you add this to your water and water your palms near the stem, the roots will take up this hormone and the palm will "think" the roots need to grow faster, which again makes the whole palm grow faster.

The secret that the sellers of these products do not want you to know is that you can buy just the active ingredient (NAA or IBA or IAA, they are equivalent) and achieve exactly the same for a fraction of the price. Also, you only need one application per growth season, ideally when the ground has warmed up enough (> 70F) and only two or three years after planting. For palms, you should use a solution with about 1 ppm of auxin for watering.

 

2 hours ago, _Keith said:

An intelligent answer.

Yes, thanks.

[mcrawford]

I know the label reads like an ad for old fashion "snake oil", but growers way better than I swear by the stuff.

I was an engineer for a large contractor for years and we were once building a PGA golf course in the Phoenix

area when I got a chance to talk with the head greens keeper (a PhD chemist!) who said they buy the stuff by

the drum and add it periodically to their tank mix.  With a multi-million dollar green and $200/tee-off fees, they had

a lot at stake.  I now use it during every transplant,at much higher than the labeled dosage, with good results.

[Hamal]

I have made the same experience: it does work! All I am saying is you can buy a lifelong supply (5 grams is all you need) of the only active ingredient in Superthrive (and all the others) for a few bucks on Ebay.

[foxtail]

On 3/13/2016, 10:58:31, Hamal said:

I have made the same experience: it does work! All I am saying is you can buy a lifelong supply (5 grams is all you need) of the only active ingredient in Superthrive (and all the others) for a few bucks on Ebay.

These one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NAA-NAA-Na-a-naphthaleneacetic-acid-root-clone-Naphthalene-Acetic-Acid-IBA-IAA-/181441344382?hash=item2a3ebf337e:g:mZMAAOSwkNZUpgc1

Or this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IAA-Indole-3-acetic-acid-Indole-Acetic-Acid-Auxin-Rooting-Hormone-IBA-NAA-Clonex-/181603231160?hash=item2a486565b8:g:F4QAAOSwc0FUpePG

Edited March 14, 2016 by foxtail
More info add

[Hamal]

Actually, all of them are equivalent. I think one of them is the natural one, the other two are synthetic, but the palms will not be able to distinguish them. However, it is important that you buy the water soluble auxin, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Indole-Butyric-Acid-Water-soluble-5-grams-99-pure-IBA-K-/221028089878?hash=item33764d0016:g:TJ8AAOSwPYZU8kJ1. Otherwise you have to dissolve it in alcohol and it is not stable.

[foxtail]

58 minutes ago, Hamal said:

Actually, all of them are equivalent. I think one of them is the natural one, the other two are synthetic, but the palms will not be able to distinguish them. However, it is important that you buy the water soluble auxin, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Indole-Butyric-Acid-Water-soluble-5-grams-99-pure-IBA-K-/221028089878?hash=item33764d0016:g:TJ8AAOSwPYZU8kJ1. Otherwise you have to dissolve it in alcohol and it is not stable.

Excellent, thanks!!! 

Any other tips on how to dilute it, e.g X grams in X gallons?

[Hamal]

You need very little of the auxin powder. In the end, you need approximately a 1-ppm solution. When I ordered it, they provided me with a .08g spatula, with which I created a 750ppm solution using 100ml of water. I use about 1.25 ml of this solution for 1l of water (in other words 1 tsp for 1 gallon of water). This does not have to be exact, anything between .75 to 2 ppm will probably work fine. But it does not help to increase the auxin content beyond that.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Hamal

[foxtail]

14 hours ago, Hamal said:

You need very little of the auxin powder. In the end, you need approximately a 1-ppm solution. When I ordered it, they provided me with a .08g spatula, with which I created a 750ppm solution using 100ml of water. I use about 1.25 ml of this solution for 1l of water (in other words 1 tsp for 1 gallon of water). This does not have to be exact, anything between .75 to 2 ppm will probably work fine. But it does not help to increase the auxin content beyond that.

Got it, thanks mate.

[Sanips]

has Anyone some experience with gibberellic acid (GA3)? I have 0.1g to try to help some seeds to germinate. I'm going to disolve it with isopropyl alcohol 70% (I tink it could be used to disolve NAA too) and make a mix about 300-400ppm.

[Hamal]

I am not aware of any dormant palm seeds other those swimming across lakes or oceans such as coconuts. GA3 is typically used with seeds to break the dormancy, e.g. conifers require stratification, but you can also use a GA3 bath instead. So I doubt it will help raise old seeds from the dead.

As to NAA dissolved in alcohol, I wrote earlier that you can do that, but it is not very stable. After a while, the NAA will fall out again. It is better to use the water soluble NAA (or IBA).

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I have just recently used Superthrive on all my newly planted coconut palms.  I will post the results in a few months once I know how it is working.

[GMann]

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 5:30:37, Hamal said:

The secret that the sellers of these products do not want you to know is that you can buy just the active ingredient (NAA or IBA or IAA, they are equivalent) and achieve exactly the same for a fraction of the price. Also, you only need one application per growth season, ideally when the ground has warmed up enough (> 70F) and only two or three years after planting. For palms, you should use a solution with about 1 ppm of auxin for watering.

I just received Superthrive in the mail. I purchased it from the official Superthrive Amazon account. NAA IS NOT LISTED AS AN INGREDIENT.

This is what the listed ingredients are:

Active Ingredient

0.09% Vitamin B1 from Thiamine Hydrochloride

Inactive Ingredients

1.8% Isopropyl Alcohol

2.0% Glacial Acetic Acid as a vinegar preservative

96.11% Total Other Ingredients

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by GMann

[Really full garden]

22 minutes ago, GMann said:

I just received Superthrive in the mail. I purchased it from the official Superthrive Amazon account. NAA IS NOT LISTED AS AN INGREDIENT.

This is what the listed ingredients are:

Active Ingredient

0.09% Vitamin B1 from Thiamine Hydrochloride

Inactive Ingredients

1.8% Isopropyl Alcohol

2.0% Glacial Acetic Acid as a vinegar preservative

96.11% Total Other Ingredients

 

I use Superthirve on my orchids and palm seedlings and the stuff absolutely reeks of vitamins. Smells just like the vitamins I give to my geriatric dog.

[GMann]

I was a little confused by the conflicting reports on the ingredients of Superthrive, so I called the company. They were a little cagey on the phone with me, they said that the ingredients were a closely guarded secret. But they did confirm that NAA was a listed ingredient in the past that has been subsequently removed from the list of ingredients. They would not confirm or deny whether the current product has NAA in it. My guess is that it does still have NAA in it but they removed it from the listed ingredients in an effort to protect the business from copycats.

[Hamal]

So I guess it is obvious that NAA is the only active ingredient, as they do not remove any of the non-active ingredients. Plants do not need externally supplied vitamins, because they produce them on their own (especially vitamin C), as we all know from our parents who kept telling us to eat veggies and fruits. I doubt that alcohol and vinegar will do anything useful to plants, they are probably only required to dissolve the auxin. So NAA remains as the only ingredient in SuperThrive that has any effect on our palms.

So it seems like they do not use the water-soluble version of NAA (which means there is probably an expiration date) and on top of that they tell you to keep using it, even though they should be aware of the fact that it is useless after the first application until at least one year later.

[foxtail]

21 hours ago, Hamal said:

So I guess it is obvious that NAA is the only active ingredient, as they do not remove any of the non-active ingredients. Plants do not need externally supplied vitamins, because they produce them on their own (especially vitamin C), as we all know from our parents who kept telling us to eat veggies and fruits. I doubt that alcohol and vinegar will do anything useful to plants, they are probably only required to dissolve the auxin. So NAA remains as the only ingredient in SuperThrive that has any effect on our palms.

So it seems like they do not use the water-soluble version of NAA (which means there is probably an expiration date) and on top of that they tell you to keep using it, even though they should be aware of the fact that it is useless after the first application until at least one year later.

Indeed!!

[Phoenikakias]

On 15/3/2016, 9:30:01, Hamal said:

You need very little of the auxin powder. In the end, you need approximately a 1-ppm solution. When I ordered it, they provided me with a .08g spatula, with which I created a 750ppm solution using 100ml of water. I use about 1.25 ml of this solution for 1l of water (in other words 1 tsp for 1 gallon of water). This does not have to be exact, anything between .75 to 2 ppm will probably work fine. But it does not help to increase the auxin content beyond that.

How many gr of the NAA should be mixed with 100 ml water for the production 750 ppm solution? And then why should I first produce a denser solution rather than keep the powder stored and take every time the small quantity I need for the creation of the (final) solution (that is 1 gr pro lt water according to convert tables available in the web)? I put  last quaestion in case I have missed something from the whole discussion...

[rick]

7 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

How many gr of the NAA should be mixed with 100 ml water for the production 750 ppm solution? And then why should I first produce a denser solution rather than keep the powder stored and take every time the small quantity I need for the creation of the (final) solution (that is 1 gr pro lt water according to convert tables available in the web)? I put  last quaestion in case I have missed something from the whole discussion...

1ppm is the same as 1mg/liter. So 750 ppm = 750mg/l = 75mg/100ml = 0.75gr in 100ml. In looking it up though, NAA (1-Naphthylacetic acid) has a solubility in water of 420 mg/L at 20 °C or 380 mg/L at 17 °C. Any more than this and it won't fully dissolve. Here is a link to a full description of its properties. Chemicals are generally more stable as a powder than when they are dissolved in solution. Its usually best to make up a fresh solution before you use it so that you know the exact concentration. 

[Hamal]

2 hours ago, rick said:

1ppm is the same as 1mg/liter. So 750 ppm = 750mg/l = 75mg/100ml = 0.75gr in 100ml.

The last conversion is incorrect. It is .075g in 100ml (my spatula corresponds to .08g).

2 hours ago, rick said:

NAA (1-Naphthylacetic acid) has a solubility in water of 420 mg/L at 20 °C or 380 mg/L at 17 °C.

That is why you normally have to use alcohol to dissolve it. However, the water-soluble NAA available on ebay apparently is a sodium salt that fully dissolves in water.

@Phoenikakias I guess that also answers your question. For 10 liters of water you would approximately need 10mg of NAA (an eighth of the spatula they provided). Measuring mg is just not practical every time. On the other hand, measuring ml with a dropper or a teaspoon is no problem.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hamal

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, rick said:

1ppm is the same as 1mg/liter. So 750 ppm = 750mg/l = 75mg/100ml = 0.75gr in 100ml. In looking it up though, NAA (1-Naphthylacetic acid) has a solubility in water of 420 mg/L at 20 °C or 380 mg/L at 17 °C. Any more than this and it won't fully dissolve. Here is a link to a full description of its properties. Chemicals are generally more stable as a powder than when they are dissolved in solution. Its usually best to make up a fresh solution before you use it so that you know the exact concentration. 

So if I understand whole thing correctly, and following is supposed to be a practical verification of above information, the 750 ppm solution in 100 ml water is created by adding roughly one portion of the powder measured by the special spatula of the 0.08 g capacity. But because of the solubility of the powder, according to rick's information, so that not half of this quantity gets wasted, rather create a 400 ppm solution using to this purpose 200 ml water for the same portion of powder!

[Hamal]

If you order the water-soluble Sodium a-naphthylacetic acid (NA a-NAA), there is no need to reduce the concentration. The 750-ppm solution is stable. I have kept it so far for more than 2 years, there is no fall-out at the bottom and so far it has not lost its effectiveness.

I have not tried the pure NAA, which has the limitations @rick described. Some people use alcohol to dissolve it, which works (like in Superthrive), but in the long run it is not stable. You can try a 200-ppm solution, but I am afraid since you are pushing it, it will probably fall out after a while. So you need to shake it before using it.

[Phoenikakias]

Is that all about it; shaking well before use??????!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hamal]

Maybe, maybe not, I have no experience with that stuff. With the water-soluble NAA you are on the safe side. No shaking necessary, no expiration date. And 5 grams is all you need for the next 30-40 years.

[GMann]

So once you have the concentration right, what quantity of the mix should be applied?

I just started using the Superthrive I received. They suggest 1 teaspoon per gallon of water but do not specify how many gallons of the resulting mix to apply.

I was spreading out one gallon of the mix to cover about 3 juvenile palm trees that were planted about a year ago from 3 gallon containers.

And for a larger 15 gallon palm I was thinking that I would use the full gallon of the mix for each palm.

 

Does that sound sufficient?

 

ps. I already ordered by water soluble NAA from Ebay so when this Superthrive bottle runs out I will switch to that.

[Hamal]

That sounds about right. Ideally, the soil is almost dry before you apply the auxin. Also, I water very close to the base of the palm, because palms build only adventive roots starting from the base, so that is where the auxin needs to go.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181585131065?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

[rick]

22 hours ago, Hamal said:

The last conversion is incorrect. It is .075g in 100ml (my spatula corresponds to .08g).

That is why you normally have to use alcohol to dissolve it. However, the water-soluble NAA available on ebay apparently is a sodium salt that fully dissolves in water.

@Phoenikakias I guess that also answers your question. For 10 liters of water you would approximately need 10mg of NAA (an eighth of the spatula they provided). Measuring mg is just not practical every time. On the other hand, measuring ml with a dropper or a teaspoon is no problem.

You are right. I work in biology so thats what I get for trying to do chemistry at 1am. Unfortunately I can't seem to find any good information on 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid sodium salt other than this. The large chemical suppliers I normally order from all just have a blank next to solubility in their chemical properties descriptions. If I have some time tomorrow maybe I can ask one of the chemists at work.

[cassowaryhill]

For all the Ozzie guys... You can buy this at Bunnings... Starting it tonight ... Let's wait and see... It's also got -Naphtyl acetic acid in it!  

[cm05]

I recently repotted my twin Pygmy, I had to get a bit aggressive with the root system but they haven't skipped a beat (knock on wood). Don't know if the Superthrive helped or not, but it couldn't have hurt. I'll be using it from now on.

[cassowaryhill]

@Tyrone @newcal @Tassie_Troy1971 @Tropicgardener See what I bought! Lets see if it actually works

Edited April 8, 2016 by cassowaryhill

[Tropicgardener]

28 minutes ago, cassowaryhill said:

@Tyrone @newcal @Tassie_Troy1971 @Tropicgardener See what I bought! Lets see if it actually works

Haven't ever tried it......... I normally just 'Seasol' new plantings.......... Might be worth a try.

 

[Tassie_Troy1971]

ok Shane put it to work and lets see some results.

[Tyrone]

Yeah Shane I too am interested in your results. Let us know how you go.

[Panagiotis]

I found a simmilar product here in Greece, it contains natural auxin 11mg/lt. The seller told me that on established palms in the ground you should use it in combination with a crystallized fertiliser 30-10-10, otherwise it doesn't work well. It means that you can use it only 2-3 times per year. (Every time you fertilize)

Also he told me that the most efficient way to use it on established palms in the ground is to spray the solution to the leaves of the palm (foliar feeding) and not to putting it in the soil.

What is your opinion about this?